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audioguy's Avatar audioguy 09:16 PM 06-13-2013
Since I noted in my other theater thread that we were building a new home, I decided to start this thread. Our new home should be completed sometime in August. I will then be able to turn one of the rooms in the "loft" into our theater. The only change in equipment I currently envision from our current theater is a new screen as I am going to AT so I can put the center channel behind it. Based upon the recommendations of CraigJohn, I will be using a 120" width fixed screen from Seymore.

And depending upon how well my one-of-a-kind automated masking system travels, I will either use it or purchase a new one, probably from Carada.

The first photo is toward what will be the front of the theater. An additional wall will be built about 5 feet in front of the current wall to end up with better room dimensions. It will also facilitate being able to place the center speaker behind the screen. The finished dimensions should end of at 22.5 feet x 19.3 feet x 7'11". Since the room is initially being built as a loft, it only has a partial wall on one side which will need to be completed.

Since the space between the current front wall and the new one will be about 4.5 feet, I would like to figure out a way to put my equipment back there as it will have heat and air. The trick will be figuring where to put the door to that room.

The biggest issue in building this theater will be minimizing sound that will travel to other parts of the house. I like to listen to music later in the evening after my wife goes to bed. I have had some discussion with the Sound Isolation Company and will be using one of their products to minimize the role the floor will play with sound transmission. We will also use Green Glue and double dry wall. I may or may not be able to use the clips to reduce the interplay between the walls and the ceiling/floor. Apparently there is also a concern about sound escaping through the can lights I will be installing so I will have to investigate that as well.

The home builder will not allow any modifications to the selection of plans and options that they provide. So I have found someone who will do the new build-out after the house is completed.

I am going to be really bummed if after spending what it is going to cost to soundproof this room and not be able to play music at reasonable levels.

Front of theater (new wall will be built to get better dimensions and to facilitate behind the screen center channel)



Loft wall



Rear Wall



The room was to be drywalled this week.

BrolicBeast's Avatar BrolicBeast 11:00 AM 06-14-2013
That's a nicely sized room. I already know it's going to be crazy in there--I mean, your current room is already standard-setting; its successor can only be better. Hey, touch base with user ddgtr--he soundproofed his room and, from what I remember him mentioning, it's extremely effective. Now is definitely the time to implement the first steps! Also, as far as accessing equipment behind the screen wall, you can always make the front wall made of fiberglass panels (excepting the frame around the screen, of course) and the panels can be installed in such a way where you can remove one to the right or left to get behind the screen wall.
craig john's Avatar craig john 10:31 PM 06-15-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

Since I noted in my other theater thread that we were building a new home, I decided to start this thread. Our new home should be completed sometime in August. I will then be able to turn one of the rooms in the "loft" into our theater. The only change in equipment I currently envision from our current theater is a new screen as I am going to AT so I can put the center channel behind it. Based upon the recommendations of CraigJohn, I will be using a 120" width fixed screen from Seymore.

And depending upon how well my one-of-a-kind automated masking system travels, I will either use it or purchase a new one, probably from Carada.
Will this be a fixed frame screen with all 3 speakers behind it? Will it be 16x9 or a scope screen? Either way, you'll want to calculate the screen width and and ensure that, if you put your L/R's behind the screen, that you'll have enough separation of the L/R's to provide a large enough soundstage for your music. I actually have my L/R's outside the screen edges so that the front soundstage is a better width. This may impact the design of the false wall. You might want the whole false wall to be acoustically transparent.

Also, what screen material are you thinking of using?
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

The first photo is toward what will be the front of the theater. An additional wall will be built about 5 feet in front of the current wall to end up with better room dimensions. It will also facilitate being able to place the center speaker behind the screen. The finished dimensions should end of at 22.5 feet x 19.3 feet x 7'11". Since the room is initially being built as a loft, it only has a partial wall on one side which will need to be completed.

Since the space between the current front wall and the new one will be about 4.5 feet, I would like to figure out a way to put my equipment back there as it will have heat and air. The trick will be figuring where to put the door to that room.

The biggest issue in building this theater will be minimizing sound that will travel to other parts of the house. I like to listen to music later in the evening after my wife goes to bed. I have had some discussion with the Sound Proof Company and will be using one of their products to minimize the role the floor will play with sound transmission. We will also use Green Glue and double dry wall. I may or may not be able to use the clips to reduce the interplay between the walls and the ceiling/floor. Apparently there is also a concern about sound escaping through the can lights I will be installing so I will have to investigate that as well.

The home builder will not allow any modifications to the selection of plans and options that they provide. So I have found someone who will do the new build-out after the house is completed.

I am going to be really bummed if after spending what it is going to cost to soundproof this room and not be able to play music at reasonable levels.



The room was to be drywalled this week.

You would probably be better off starting a thread in the "Dedicated Cinema Design and Construction" forum. That forum gets lots of traffic from the heavy hitter HT design guys. Soundproofing has a whole set of design goals that are completely separate from the acoustic treatment requirements. It is absolutely essential that those requirements be addressed in the design and construction phase, as they are almost impossible to retrofit afterwards.

Craig
audioguy's Avatar audioguy 07:14 AM 06-16-2013
Craig: Only the center channel is going behind the screen. The LR will be out into the room to optimize their placement for imaging, FR, etc. I don't recall the screen material (I'm not at my desk) but the screen has a gain of 1.1.

I will post this on the construction thread. Thanks for the recommendation. However, I have been in communication with a number of individuals and companies on the room isolation portion of the build (http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/) and the room acoustic portion as well. The builder will let me do nothing about either while the house is being built so all of the things I will be able to do will have to happen after the fact. The one thing I was able to get done prior to the house being dry walled was to have insulation (VERY thick) put into the floor of the theater and the ceiling of the master bedroom which overlaps the theater. (This was done clandestinely by the guy who will do the room build out ). In addition to the consulting I am getting from the SoundProofingCompany, I will be using Bryan Pape who works with GIK for the room design.

The plan for the front wall is to be a real wall to change the length dimension of the room. There will be an opening the size of my Catalyst center channel and most of that wall behind the screen will be covered in two to four inch acoustic material since the screen will be AT. (apparently AT works both way rolleyes.gif). I would like to put my equipment in that space between the current wall and the one to be built (it will be about 5 feet wide and 19 feet long) but figuring the best way to access it will be a bit of a challenge.

I built my current room to "leak" bass on purpose and as a result ended up with very smooth uncorrected bass response. I was not married at the time so sound isolation was not an issue. In my previous room, I did the who double wall thing and my bass response was more challenging. So we shall see how all of this work in this room.

Chuck
craig john's Avatar craig john 07:55 AM 06-16-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

Craig: Only the center channel is going behind the screen. The LR will be out into the room to optimize their placement for imaging, FR, etc. I don't recall the screen material (I'm not at my desk) but the screen has a gain of 1.1.

The plan for the front wall is to be a real wall to change the length dimension of the room. There will be an opening the size of my Catalyst center channel and most of that wall behind the screen will be covered in two to four inch acoustic material since the screen will be AT. (apparently AT works both way rolleyes.gif).
It sounds like the CC will be in a "baffle wall" and the L/R's will be out into the room. I would bounce that plan off Mark Seaton. The CC will "see" a completely different room reinforcement and acoustic space than the L/R's. A baffle wall can augment a speaker by 6 dB. Mark may have some thoughts about the impact of a baffle wall and how to acoustically treat the baffle wall.

Here is an article about baffle walls: baffled_again.pdf 182k .pdf file You may have the opportunity to build a complete baffle wall for all 3 speakers, which would be AWESOME. There is a picture of what I'm talking about on page 5 of that article. Check it out. I wish I had the opportunity to do a baffle wall in my space, but it would require a complete re-design of my theater... not something I'm up for right now. Still, if I were starting over, as you are, I would give it serious consideration.
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

I would like to put my equipment in that space between the current wall and the one to be built (it will be about 5 feet wide and 19 feet long) but figuring the best way to access it will be a bit of a challenge.
Depending on how you designed the access through the wall, and the remote control "repeaters", you could still do this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

I will post this on the construction thread. Thanks for the recommendation. However, I have been in communication with a number of individuals and companies on the room isolation portion of the build (http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/) and the room acoustic portion as well. The builder will let me do nothing about either while the house is being built so all of the things I will be able to do will have to happen after the fact. The one thing I was able to get done prior to the house being dry walled was to have insulation (VERY thick) put into the floor of the theater and the ceiling of the master bedroom which overlaps the theater. (This was done clandestinely by the guy who will do the room build out ). In addition to the consulting I am getting from the SoundProofingCompany, I will be using Bryan Pape who works with GIK for the room design.
Here is a very interesting video about a loft "suspended HT" that is completely sound isolated from the rest of the house. There might be some ideas for you in there:
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

I built my current room to "leak" bass on purpose and as a result ended up with very smooth uncorrected bass response. I was not married at the time so sound isolation was not an issue. In my previous room, I did the who double wall thing and my bass response was more challenging. So we shall see how all of this work in this room.

Chuck
It sucks that your builder won't let you do anything outside of the original plans. Can you have him just leave the space unfinished? It seems silly to pay to have him finish the space only to have to re-do a lot of it afterwards. I'm sure it'll turn out great, but it seems like an inefficient way to do it.

Anyway, have fun and enjoy the journey. smile.gif

Craig
Attached: baffled_again.pdf (182.1 KB) 
audioguy's Avatar audioguy 10:07 PM 06-16-2013
Craig: I have already talked to Mark and told him what I was thinking and he highly recommend that I used acoustic material on the new wall through which the center speaker would protrude and use as much as would be required to cover all areas behind the AT screen.

I will do some research on putting the L+R speakers behind that wall as well. I did read the article you referenced. My major concern about doing so would be giving up depth perception for 2 channel music. Plus, I sort of like the appearance of the speakers in the room. But I will keep my options open.

Thanks for the recommendation(s).

I did watch the video and have emailed them some questions. Thanks for that reference as well.

Chuck
rx-8's Avatar rx-8 12:24 PM 06-17-2013
Hey Chuck. I just found this thread and I'm going to follow it with great interest because we are also going to build a HT in our new custom ranch home. We are now looking for land and playing with the house plans now, the construction will not begin until next spring. We still haven't decided where the dedicated HT will reside (basement, main floor, or separate structure). There are advantages to very option but we are still undecided at this time. I don't want to derail your thread so I'll stop at this point.

Please keep posting and the more pictures the better. biggrin.gif

Best of luck during your journey.

Cheers,
-- Bill --
audioguy's Avatar audioguy 09:31 PM 08-22-2013
I used Bryan Pape of GIK to assist in the room design and am working with Glenn Kuras (GIK is located in the Atlanta Area) to determine the best products for in-room sound management.

Below is the diagram of the room. The shown speaker placement will most likely not match actuallity as in my current room they are much further into the room. But we shall see.

Gerlach Listening Room.pdf 107k .pdf file

We have closed on the house and 30 minutes after closing we ripped out the carpet and began tearing out the loft wall to turn it into a real wall.

We are using some products we purchased from the Sound Isolation Company to attempt to keep as much sound in the room as possible. There is a special mat that lays on the sub floor (adds approximately 700 pounds to the weight of the room), then the carpet padding and then the carpet. We have double dry-walled with Green glue on the walls and ceilings and will be installing exterior doors with sound sealing products we also purchased from the Sound Isolation Company.

Each of the electrical outlet boxes is sealed around the back of it as are the boxes that are the termination points for all of the smurf tube runs for the XLR interconnects. In addition to the existing 15 amp circuits that were already in the room, we ran additional 20amp circuits to power the 4 subs, 4 surrounds and the LCR’s. The front 3 speakers and the projector will be run through a PurePower Regeneration System as will all of the front end gear (I am currently doing that in my current room)

To make it easier to turn on and off the speakers, each of the power runs to each of the speakers runs through a 20 amp power switch which is located in the equipment room. Eventually, I will control those with my Control4 system.

We shortened the room by 5 feet to try to come up with the optimum dimensions for the best frequency response. The new wall was placed 5 feet in from the windows and all of my equipment will be located in that space as will all of my DVD’s and Blurays. My CD’s are on a server so I won’t need access to those. Of course we had to put a door into that wall for access to the equipment room.

The front wall (including the door in the wall to the equipment room) will be covered in 2-inch acoustic material (GIK). The side wall first reflection points will be GIK q7D’s and the rear side wall will be GIK 244’s with Scatter Plates (sort of a diffusor). The rear wall will consist of GIK custom sized monster traps with scatter plates, q7D’s and GIK GridFusors. The front corners will be GIK Soffit Traps (what is shown in the diagram is not correct). The front ceiling will be a combination of suspended scatter plates and maybe GIK 242’s laying on top of the scatter plates. That will be determined once we get the room up and running.

The primary changes I am making in this theater versus my current one are: (a) new Acoustically Transparent screen from Seymour (and, of course, moving my center channel behind the screen) and (b) a new CIH masking system from Carada. The screen will be the same size as my current screen (120 inches x 51 inches)

Here are some additional photos:

Looking toward rear right corner. An exterior door has been installed. Shows the "loft wall"



New wall replacing loft wall and creating entrance to theater



This is the space behind the new front wall that will be where I have my equipment



Green Glue applied. It sound quieter already tongue.gif



Here are some photos of the room before we messed it up!!



Gotta love the vacuum marks !!





We expect the room to be completed, carpeted and painted just after Labor Day. I would hope to then begin finishing out the soffit traps and installing all of the room treatment product. And then the fun begins. We will move over all of my gear and begin the equipment installation and calibration testing and install the screen and masking system (and all of this while trying to run my small business rolleyes.gifrolleyes.gifrolleyes.gif.
Attached: Gerlach Listening Room.pdf (106.9 KB) 
audioguy's Avatar audioguy 09:37 PM 08-27-2013
This thread would best be in the new construction area. Anyone know how to move a thread??
MIkeDuke's Avatar MIkeDuke 08:05 AM 08-28-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

This thread would best be in the new construction area. Anyone know how to move a thread??
I think you need to ask a MOD to move it for you. Just send a PM and I am sure they would do it for you. BTW, it looks like it will be a stellar room.
craig john's Avatar craig john 04:10 PM 08-28-2013
Found it and subscribed.

This is going to be excellent!

Craig
audioguy's Avatar audioguy 05:58 PM 08-28-2013
The guy who drew the room layout was not paying attention. It shows the center of the room to be an arm rest on my chairs. My current sweet spot seat is the second from the left and has been that way for the 20 years I have had a theater. In the new room it will be second from the right. It is also the spot I pay most attention to when doing Audyssey or DiracLive. My wife does not care where she sits. I only give up that seat when we have guests !!

The basic part of the theater should be completed next week (double dry walls, electrical, smurf tubing, painting, Privacy Underlay, carpet pad and carpet, etc. I am waiting for my new AT screen from Seymour (thanks to the recommendation of CraigJohn) to arrive as well as my masking system from Carada. While the 19 foot wide room is large enough for a huge screen, I am sticking with a 10 foot screen as I am not in a position to purchase a projector with both the light output and picture quality to light up a 13 foot screen. And besides that, I am about 13 to 14 feet from the screen so the picture is WAY large enough for me!

As you can see in the attached photo, a enclosure for the center channel has been built into the front wall (sealed all of the way around except for the front and the back can be unscrewed for access). In the back of the box on the bottom is located an electrical outlet as well as a connector point for my XLR interconnects. The black stuff on the floor is a Privacy Underlay I purchased from the Sound Isolation Company to attempt to control bass from leaking all over the house. Finished room will be 22 feet long and 19'3" wide and 7'11" high.

The door goes into a space about 4.5 feet wide where my equipment is located as well as my movie collection, the back end of my center channel enclosure and some other miscellaneous stuff.

When I had them do the electrical, I have the LCR on one 20 amp circuit, the surrounds on 1 20 amp circuit, the front 2 subs on 1 20 amp circuit and the rear subs on 1 20 amp circuit. Each of those circuits goes to a 20 amp wall switch behind the door so that I can turn on and off the system a lot easier than I do now. I may replace those switches with Control4 switches so the turn on and off process can be automated.

I spent about 3 hours with GIK this morning (they are located about 8 miles from my home) and laid out how I'm going to spend another $7,000 !!!! So the room "should" sound great and hopefully look great as well. It will probably be another month or so before I can actually listen to or watch something but once the room is further along I am going to haul my subs over there and start doing some testing for placement ! And the acoustics will be very different from what was originally proposed.

The room treatment will be as follows: Front wall will be all absorption (2 inches including behind the screen) and black GIK Soffit Traps placed vertically in the corners; front side walls will be GIK q7D diffusers; rear side walls will be GIK custom height Monster Bass Traps with Scatter Plates; Rear wall will be a combination of Monster Traps with Scatter Plates, q7D diffusers, and GIK GridFusors. The room and carpet will be a VERY dark gray, the screen wall will be black and the material on the soffits and panels will be a lighter version of gray.

Photo of front wall:



Photo of q7D



Photo of Scatter Plate (it is hidden behind the fabric of whatever panel it is mounted on)


BrolicBeast's Avatar BrolicBeast 07:14 PM 08-28-2013

This build thread is already Epic.

 

Subscribed!


craig john's Avatar craig john 08:34 PM 08-28-2013
Hi Chuck,

I am curious... I know you contacted Mark Seaton about your new room and system. Did he have any comments about the install of the CC in what looks to be essentially a "baffle wall" while the L/R's are deployed well out into the room? I would think the CC would "see" a completely different room reinforcement than the L/R's. Can this be compensated for just in the calibration, or does this also impact the timbre-match of the CC vis-a-vis' the L/R's? The CC will be essentially 4 pi while the L/R's will be closer to 2 pi. 4" of absorption on the front wall, as well as diffusion 12' into the listening space on the side walls will obviously reduce the impact of the boundaries, but I would think there would be a range, (maybe 60 to ~500 Hz), where the treatments would be less effective and the room, and speaker positioning, would dominate the response of both the CC and the L/R's. Mark's commentary, as well as the GIK guys, would be enlightening and informative.

Nonetheless, with your proximity to GIK, and your involvement of both Bryan Pape and Glen Kuras, your room should be a showcase of GIK's capabilities. You obviously have the speakers and subs to do the room justice.

Can you provide some more info on your screen choice. I know you went with SeymourAV, (GREAT choice!), and a Carada masking system, (another GREAT choice!) What size screen did you select? What aspect ratio? Will you be using an anamorphic lens? Do you plan to keep your JVC RS-55 or will you be changing projectors?

You know Chuck, I'm having *almost* as much fun as you watching you redesign and configure your new HT. With everything you've learned and experienced over the years, it will be REALLY exciting to follow your progress as you move to a totally new system. Please keep us peons informed of your progress as you move to completion of what will surely be a "WORLD CLASS" HT. smile.gif

Craig
audioguy's Avatar audioguy 10:41 PM 08-28-2013
Quote:
Hi Chuck,

I am curious... I know you contacted Mark Seaton about your new room and system. Did he have any comments about the install of the CC in what looks to be essentially a "baffle wall" while the L/R's are deployed well out into the room?

He did not comment
Quote:
I would think the CC would "see" a completely different room reinforcement than the L/R's. Can this be compensated for just in the calibration, or does this also impact the timbre-match of the CC vis-a-vis' the L/R's? The CC will be essentially 4 pi while the L/R's will be closer to 2 pi. 4" of absorption on the front wall, as well as diffusion 12' into the listening space on the side walls will obviously reduce the impact of the boundaries, but I would think there would be a range, (maybe 60 to ~500 Hz), where the treatments would be less effective and the room, and speaker positioning, would dominate the response of both the CC and the L/R's. Mark's commentary, as well as the GIK guys, would be enlightening and informative.

I will see if I can get Glenn (GIK) and Mark to respond to your question. However, in many ways, my current center sees a much different room than my LR. The center channel woofers are much closer to the floor (horizontal positioning of the speaker), the first 7 feet in front of the speaker is hardwood and the speaker is pushed up against the front wall and a long way from the side walls where the LR are 6+ feet into the room and near sidewalls and sit just behind the carpet (first floor bounce). That said, and based upon almost 20 years of messing around with time based digital room correction, I will be most surprised if there are any issues after running Audyssey. There sure are none in my current room. But, then again. it would not be the first time I was surprised.
Quote:
Nonetheless, with your proximity to GIK, and your involvement of both Bryan Pape and Glen Kuras, your room should be a showcase of GIK's capabilities. You obviously have the speakers and subs to do the room justice.

Glenn has taken this project on to both get the very best sound possible and with a high degree of attention to cosmetics. Most of the time, he gets customers AFTER a room has been constructed and who have a somewhat limited budgets. While I do not have an unlimited budget, you and I both know that room treatment (and construction) are easily the most important “component” one can acquire and I have no intention skimping in any way in the regard. He has said more than once that he can’t wait to get it completed and he will drive over to my new home for a listening session. He is doing some things to insure that the completed room is not too dead and not too “zingy”. The placement of products and selection of products that will be used in the room is no longer what Bryan recommended. As a note, Glenn has been in my current room and knows what it sounds like and what I am looking for. He also knows that while the room is dual purposed ( HT and 2 channel), my love for 2 channel is not being downplayed in the room treatment approach.
Quote:
Can you provide some more info on your screen choice. I know you went with SeymourAV, (GREAT choice!), and a Carada masking system, (another GREAT choice!) What size screen did you select? What aspect ratio? Will you be using an anamorphic lens? Do you plan to keep your JVC RS-55 or will you be changing projectors?

I considered going to a massive screen given the 19+ foot room width but chose to stick with 10 feet for two reasons: (1) given my current and projected seating position, 10 feet totally fills my field of vision and (2), in order to achieve the quality and brightness of picture I get now with my JVC RS55, I would have to spend, at a minimum $25,000 or more for a new projector and I have no interest in doing that, particularly given how fast the technology keeps getting faster/better/brighter/cheaper. I will continue to use my Panamorph. The aspect ratio of the screen will be 2.35 (120 inches by 51 inches).

As you know, I have never heard a theater I liked any better than what I have, some of which cost many multiples of what I have invested in mine. And while I would never suggest there are not better theaters, I am not interested in spending whatever it would cost to get there. My only complaint in my current theater has been the oft discussed “upper mid-range glare”. Hopefully with a different physical room and much more competent individuals assisting me, that problem will no longer exist !!
Quote:
You know Chuck, I'm having *almost* as much fun as you watching you redesign and configure your new HT. With everything you've learned and experienced over the years, it will be REALLY exciting to follow your progress as you move to a totally new system. Please keep us peons informed of your progress as you move to completion of what will surely be a "WORLD CLASS" HT.

Craig

I don't know if it will be world class. I will just be happy if it turns out to be "middle Georgia" class.
MIkeDuke's Avatar MIkeDuke 05:44 AM 08-29-2013
It's great that GIK is involved in the level they are. Bryan P really helped me out as well. I try to recommend GIK as much as I can because Bryan really did help me and was very patient in dealing with me. Trust me, I was not the easiest customer tongue.gif Although my treatment requirements are not as extensive as yours, I was very pleased with his help and the results I got after the treatments went up. Going from no treatments, to 8 was a real game changer for me. I can't wait to see the end result of this theater.
audioguy's Avatar audioguy 08:35 AM 08-29-2013
Craig:

Here is Mark Seatons' response to your question about my center channel placement:
Quote:
Hi Chuck,

Most any center channel will see a slightly different environment in a narrow room simply due to the side wall proximity. Yes, the center channel will have different low frequency loading just as your current one does. The flush mounting in many ways helps this, and Audyssey can easily compensate for this difference below ~300Hz. With the 16" wide face of the Catalyst 12C the differences from in-room to baffle mounting is pushed lower in frequency than with narrower main speakers. I do have a secondary DSP program we added in the past year which makes a compensation for baffle mounting, but with the size of the speaker it's really only about a 3dB shelf at the low end of the speaker, and most room correction systems should smooth this out. It's easy enough to send an amplifier back to us for reprogramming if you want that option.

In real use, the baffle mounted location is preferred for a center channel and once the minor bass lift is compensated for it will provide more clarity for dialog by eliminating the reflection which normally bounces off the front wall and comes back to the listener. While there is argument for a stereo setup to use this effect for 2ch music providing added subjective spaciousness, there is little to no subjective benefit to this for multi-channel playback, especially movies.

Excited to see the new room come together!
Mark Seaton

Seaton Sound, Inc.
Phone: 773-290-8436
sales@seatonsound.net
www.seatonsound.net

audioguy's Avatar audioguy 07:26 PM 08-29-2013
I now have a Sound Anchor center channel stand for sale since my center speaker will now be in a wall. It adjusts vertically as well as having the ability to adjust the tilt. Perfect fit for a large center like a Dunlavy or Seaton Catalyst 12C (or maybe even the 8C). Given it's weight and physical size, pick up is really the best approach. I would be willing to drive some distance and meet for a hand-off.

Will sell for $400 but if you want is shipped, it will be VERY VERY expensive.




Peter M's Avatar Peter M 10:06 PM 08-29-2013
Hi Chuck,

Following along with much interest !

Cheers,
BrolicBeast's Avatar BrolicBeast 05:39 AM 08-30-2013

I have one of those Sound Anchor stands on the way for my similarly-sized center channel speaker, along with a couple of their amp stands as well.  Question for you: is green glue really an effective soundproofing method by itself?  Or is it something that mitigates sound transference, but does not eliminate it.  If I find that sound-proofing is an option for my next build, I'd certainly get copious units (buckets/cans?) of green-glue if it can stop all sound from escaping.  Also, what sound-isolation products are you using on the entry door?


thebland's Avatar thebland 06:33 AM 08-30-2013
Awesome thread!

Two suggestions..
1. No Left and Right speakers behinds the screen?? You crazy?!biggrin.gif
AND
2. You must go bigger on the screen.

1. I'm a huge fan of Mark and by no means claim to know more about anything speakers than he does.... BUT I've had the center behind the screen and L and R speakers to the side of the screen like you're considering... and changed it to all behind the screen! I've had both set ups:D The latter was much better.

My first theater put a center behind the screen with L and R speakers outside my screen frame. I never liked it. Not only the tonal characteristics altered in sound between L and R speakers and the center behind the screen but L and R sounds that naturally would be coming from the screen's left and right side were coming outside the movie's frame and sounded out of place at times - distracting to me. Moreover, with your L and R speakers so far apart, the imaging you think you're maintaining for stereo recording would be better than if behind the screen but still way compromised.

Yes, I used DSP and EQ to help make the tonal character similar - never made it though.

So... when I remodeled my screen wall, I placed the speakers behind the screen and never looked back. So much better! Moreover, trying to voice these speakers with EQ will be much easier as they are all behind a screen. Tonal similarity, which is difficult even for identical speakers with pink noise, will be easier to achieve with all speakers similarly positioned behind the screen..


BEFORE


AFTER (better)smile.gif

2. Regarding screen size, I had a 10' wide screen after doing my theater and it seemed small in my 17' wide room. I remodeled to a 14' wide constant height. Understand that going from 10' to 14', for example, DOUBLES your square footage of viewing area (~42 sqft vs ~84 sq ft). IT took my room from a movie room to a full on Cinema. CONSTANT HEIGHT is another feature you should consider.

If you want a cinematic presentation, you need a larger picture AND big sound. I came to this realization in my own room.


3. Now, I am getting ready to start my own Theater remodel #2! I will be putting in new speakers, subs and adding Trinnov Room Correction and yes, all speakers will behind the screen - and going either 9.2 or 11.2!

Looks like a great project!

Certainly your call, but my 2 cents!
craig john's Avatar craig john 06:45 AM 08-30-2013
What kind of AT screen were you using? A perforated AT screen will have a significant impact on the timbre of the speakers whereas a woven screen, like the one Chuck is getting, will have minimal impact. I have the same screen and I can *barely* hear the difference with my screen up or down.

I have had my L/R's outside the screen borders for years, although not nearly as far as Chuck is placing his. I don't notice any issues with sounds imaging off-screen.

Just another opinion... smile.gif

Craig
thebland's Avatar thebland 08:01 AM 08-30-2013
Hi Craig,

I use a Stewart Microperf X2. Not as acoustically transparent as a woven for sure. With EQ, my DSP installer got things relatively close with my speakers outside the screen to the center (behind).
But even now with identical speakers behind the screen and DSP for all, tonal character is still not matched between my LCRs. This is a lesser reason I went with Trinnov - it will solve this.

My L and R speakers were a 2ft outside of my screen in my original set up and it distracted me in some - not all - soundtracks. I prefer the way I have things now and in my current re-do, I will maintain such. Looks like a nice room here.smile.gif
MIkeDuke's Avatar MIkeDuke 08:23 AM 08-30-2013
Just to comment on the speakers outside of the screen thing. While I do think it would be cool to have everything behind the screen, in some cases, it just may not be possible, I have been over to Craig's house and heard his Triad setup with the L\R outside the screen and the center behind the screen. Even with me not in the "sweet spot" it still sounded fantastic and I could not hear any tonal shifts. It's true every room is different though and every one may want a different look. If I am being %100 honest, for me personally, I would love to have a system where the front 3 speakers were all behind a screen. But if it never worked out like that, I would not be upset as long as it sounded great. Which I am sure this theater will.
craig john's Avatar craig john 02:20 PM 08-30-2013
Hi Jeff,
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Hi Craig,

I use a Stewart Microperf X2. Not as acoustically transparent as a woven for sure. With EQ, my DSP installer got things relatively close with my speakers outside the screen to the center (behind).
But even now with identical speakers behind the screen and DSP for all, tonal character is still not matched between my LCRs. This is a lesser reason I went with Trinnov - it will solve this.
Maybe a woven screen next time around? It could make Trinnov's job easier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

My L and R speakers were a 2ft outside of my screen in my original set up and it distracted me in some - not all - soundtracks. I prefer the way I have things now and in my current re-do, I will maintain such. Looks like a nice room here.smile.gif
My speakers are literally right on my screen borders. Maybe that's why I don't notice as much/any "disconnect" between visual image and sonic image. When the lights go out, the speakers completely disappear visually and sonically:



Also, I have "Wides" so that expands the front soundstage even further. It's very immersive, as you'll see/hear when you go to that in your theater re-do. Do you have a thread started already? If not, you should start one as I'm sure it would be a fun read! smile.gif

Craig
thebland's Avatar thebland 04:59 PM 08-30-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Hi Jeff,
Maybe a woven screen next time around? It could make Trinnov's job easier.
My speakers are literally right on my screen borders. Maybe that's why I don't notice as much/any "disconnect" between visual image and sonic image. When the lights go out, the speakers completely disappear visually and sonically:


Also, I have "Wides" so that expands the front soundstage even further. It's very immersive, as you'll see/hear when you go to that in your theater re-do. Do you have a thread started already? If not, you should start one as I'm sure it would be a fun read! smile.gif

Craig

I'm OK with my screen and, frankly, I need the 1.3 gain:D. Even with three identical three speakers behind the screen and all being the same make and model, tonals differences (pink noise) are still apparent even after EQ. This is actually pretty normal and I've read such in Stereophile.

I think you're rightt... being on the screen borders would certainly help the situation. Nice set up!

I'm looking to add 'wides' in my new set up using the Trinnov processor. I am still specing speakers and design at this point but am down to two manufacturers.

Once I chose my speakers and Amps, then I'm going to start a thread... hopefully sooner than later.

For now, this is a good thread!smile.gif
audioguy's Avatar audioguy 08:22 PM 08-30-2013
Quote:
Awesome thread!

Two suggestions..
1. No Left and Right speakers behinds the screen?? You crazy?!
AND
2. You must go bigger on the screen.

I evaluated placing all speakers behind the screen but chose not to do so for a number of reasons: (a) I am still a 2 channel guy and was not convinced that all speakers behind a baffle wall would give me the image depth that is possible with 2 speakers properly placed into the room (though I have read articles that dispute that (b) I like the look of speakers in the room. If this were a home theater only, I might think differently.

I also evaluated a larger screen option but rejected that also for a number of reasons: (a) as you will notice from the photos, there is a door on the screen wall that provides access to my equipment and a larger screen would have made that inaccessible. (b) In order to get the brightness and picture quality I now get with my 1.3 gain Stewart and a JVC RS55, on a screen, say 13 feet wide (with 1.1 gain), I would be in the $25,000++ category for a PJ. First, I don’t want to spend that kind of money on a PJ and second, the rapidity of improvements in PJ’s is far to rapid to make that kind of investment when in a very few years, they will be faster/brighter/cheaper/higher resolution/better … (c) I sit fairly close to the screen and it completely fills my field of view
Quote:
1. I'm a huge fan of Mark and by no means claim to know more about anything speakers than he does.... BUT I've had the center behind the screen and L and R speakers to the side of the screen like you're considering... and changed it to all behind the screen! I've had both set ups:D The latter was much better.

My first theater put a center behind the screen with L and R speakers outside my screen frame. I never liked it. Not only the tonal characteristics altered in sound between L and R speakers and the center behind the screen but L and R sounds that naturally would be coming from the screen's left and right side were coming outside the movie's frame and sounded out of place at times - distracting to me. Moreover, with your L and R speakers so far apart, the imaging you think you're maintaining for stereo recording would be better than if behind the screen but still way compromised.

Yes, I used DSP and EQ to help make the tonal character similar - never made it though.

Based upon the screen material I am using and room correction, I don’t expect any issues in that regard. And my LR speakers sit at the very edge of the screen so I have no discontinuity issues. Furthermore, I have outstanding pinpoint center imaging and have no issues in that regard.
Quote:
So... when I remodeled my screen wall, I placed the speakers behind the screen and never looked back. So much better! Moreover, trying to voice these speakers with EQ will be much easier as they are all behind a screen. Tonal similarity, which is difficult even for identical speakers with pink noise, will be easier to achieve with all speakers similarly positioned behind the screen..


BEFORE


AFTER (better)

2. Regarding screen size, I had a 10' wide screen after doing my theater and it seemed small in my 17' wide room. I remodeled to a 14' wide constant height. Understand that going from 10' to 14', for example, DOUBLES your square footage of viewing area (~42 sqft vs ~84 sq ft). IT took my room from a movie room to a full on Cinema. CONSTANT HEIGHT is another feature you should consider.

If you want a cinematic presentation, you need a larger picture AND big sound. I came to this realization in my own room.
Effective screen size is relative to the sitting distance. And I have BIG/HUGE sound. 4 Seaton Subs each with a 2400 watt amp, 3 Catalysts 12C’s and 4 Sparks. The significant changes I have made in this room are: (a) AT screen; (b) new room design assistance (GIK versus Rives). (c) A very different configuration of acoustic treatment, and based upon my research, should present a much better sonic landscape

Quote:
3. Now, I am getting ready to start my own Theater remodel #2! I will be putting in new speakers, subs and adding Trinnov Room Correction and yes, all speakers will behind the screen - and going either 9.2 or 11.2!

Looks like a great project!

Certainly your call, but my 2 cents!
Edited by thebland - Today at 8:38 am

I do appreciate the input but given my current stage in life, priorities, home and a few other factors, I am very comfortable with the choices I have made. Now if it ends up sounding at least as good as my current theater, I will be a very happy man.
thebland's Avatar thebland 06:06 AM 08-31-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

I evaluated placing all speakers behind the screen but chose not to do so for a number of reasons: (a) I am still a 2 channel guy and was not convinced that all speakers behind a baffle wall would give me the image depth that is possible with 2 speakers properly placed into the room (though I have read articles that dispute that (b) I like the look of speakers in the room. If this were a home theater only, I might think differently.

I also evaluated a larger screen option but rejected that also for a number of reasons: (a) as you will notice from the photos, there is a door on the screen wall that provides access to my equipment and a larger screen would have made that inaccessible. (b) In order to get the brightness and picture quality I now get with my 1.3 gain Stewart and a JVC RS55, on a screen, say 13 feet wide (with 1.1 gain), I would be in the $25,000++ category for a PJ. First, I don’t want to spend that kind of money on a PJ and second, the rapidity of improvements in PJ’s is far to rapid to make that kind of investment when in a very few years, they will be faster/brighter/cheaper/higher resolution/better … (c) I sit fairly close to the screen and it completely fills my field of view
Based upon the screen material I am using and room correction, I don’t expect any issues in that regard. And my LR speakers sit at the very edge of the screen so I have no discontinuity issues. Furthermore, I have outstanding pinpoint center imaging and have no issues in that regard.
Effective screen size is relative to the sitting distance. And I have BIG/HUGE sound. 4 Seaton Subs each with a 2400 watt amp, 3 Catalysts 12C’s and 4 Sparks. The significant changes I have made in this room are: (a) AT screen; (b) new room design assistance (GIK versus Rives). (c) A very different configuration of acoustic treatment, and based upon my research, should present a much better sonic landscape
I do appreciate the input but given my current stage in life, priorities, home and a few other factors, I am very comfortable with the choices I have made. Now if it ends up sounding at least as good as my current theater, I will be a very happy man.

Gotcha. I am very familiar with your concerns on those suggestions. Been there, as I'll explain...

Like you, my first theater was in the context of building a new home as well and money was flying out or our bank account as building a home, furnishing it and other expenses are great. So, the theater budget was tight. But that said, if I would've done more prep work and more thinking of the future, I would've saved quite a bit on my future renovation of the room.. Like you, I couldn't budget for a projector bright enough to do a larger screen than 10' screen when I built my theater. So I compromised and went 10'.

Then, 5 years later, I wanted a bigger screen, I had the $$, and projectors were brighter and less money. I also, wanted to change my speaker configuration and place all behind the screen.

But I had to do a lot of undoing to get to where I wanted to be. And it was costly.

So, my second bit of advice, prep the area for a bigger screen and even for LCRs behind the screen even though you are against such for today. Also, reconsider your access door placement and plan for a 12' or 15' screen. Who knows how projector prices will go, but a 14' or larger screen will make a major difference in your movie viewing experience and presentation of the room. Guaranteed. I sit 14' from my 14' wide screen - the same distance as was with my 10' screen - WOW.. What a difference! This is in my second row. My kids love the first row (9 ft from the screen and really like the 'big-ness' of sitting so close).

Perhaps you will want such down the road or perhaps you won't. You just don't know today. But simple, inexpensive steps to prep the area for such now are cheap and will save lots down the road. Also, add a lot of conduit as connectors or new front speaker positions will likely change - it is very cheap to run more speaker wire down the road if you already have conduit but very costly if you don't..

Great choice on speakers, Catalysts and Sparks (or all Catalysts) are one of my considerations for my update as well. Should be an awesome room

Good luck!!
audioguy's Avatar audioguy 04:12 PM 08-31-2013
Thanks. Should I decide to add either (not both) wides or heights, I am good to go on the power and interconnects. To insure I never have to concern myself with a larger screen, I'll just NEVER go see one! (Seeing better systems to often leads to spending more money😁😁
audioguy's Avatar audioguy 08:08 PM 08-31-2013
Up go the soffit traps

Tags: Jvc Dla Rs55 Bundle , Stewart , Seaton Sound , Seaton Sound Catalyst 12c , Panamorph
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