New Construction Question Walls Sound Isolation Methods - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 67 Old 06-27-2013, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
fumarate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi, I’m just starting my research into a dedicated home theater.
This will be for a new construction of my residential home.
The home theater will be on the 1st floor of the home.
Two of the four walls will be exterior walls.

I’m trying to figure out what construction methods and materials will be needed for the build out.

The first question I have is on wall construction.
I understand that I’m looking to add sound damping, provide decoupling, and increase mass to my walls to achieve soundproofing.

I have been reading and see there are many different combinations out there for sound isolation:
Single Stud Wall with Resilient Channel or Hat Channel
Single Stud Wall with Sound Deadening Board

Staggered Stud Wall
Staggered Stud Wall with Sound Deadening Board

Double Stud Wall
Double Stud Wall with Sound Deadening Board

Building a decoupled room within a room

As I said I’m just starting my research.
Anyone have suggestions on how to narrow down my options further?
Or have a recommend way to build out the walls?

Thanks!
fumarate is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 67 Old 06-27-2013, 10:57 AM
AVS Special Member
 
nickbuol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Marion, Iowa
Posts: 1,769
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 205
Double stud wall is basically a room within a room and in my opinion would offer an opportunity for the inside room to be isolated from the rest of the home's walls (doesn't factor in ceiling or floor, but that isn't this topic).

I went with staggered wall construction for 2 of my 4 walls, and the other two walls were exterior concrete so I basically built a 2x4 wall about 3" in from the concrete wall and have great results. So I have a mix of essentially staggered stud and double wall.

I would think that starting with double wall will give you your best options down the road too. You could still go with clips and channel on top of that for even more isolation if you wanted, and the inside wall could be isolated from the ceiling with something like IB3 clips.

When figuring it out, I was going to just go with my walls and some thicker (than normal contruction) drywall with GreenGlue. I was quickly talked into the clips and channel for my ceiling by John Hile (from you-know-where). It wasn't as expensive as I thought, and WOW did it make a difference. Our master bedroom is right above the theater, and even with things turned up really loud, it doesn't disturb people upstairs. I can only imagine that on a wall it would do the same, but for me I had already framed up with staggered stud walls and the "double" wall that was next to the concrete walls. With a nice thick door with good seals, you know that there is a movie going on inside the room when you stand outside, but it is SO much quieter than even when just opening the door.


Good luck. Glad that you are planning it out now.
nickbuol is offline  
post #3 of 67 Old 06-27-2013, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
fumarate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks Nick!

I’m still trying to get my head around the terminology.

What are the advantages/disadvantages of going with a double stud wall construction with a gap vs. decoupling a single wall using isolation clips and hat channels ??

1. Standard stud wall  air gap  2nd wall with damping material decoupled
2. Standard stud wall with clips & channels, and damping material decoupled
fumarate is offline  
post #4 of 67 Old 06-27-2013, 12:10 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 22,408
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 776
<- in for learning and advice

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
Mfusick is offline  
post #5 of 67 Old 06-27-2013, 02:17 PM
AVS Special Member
 
nickbuol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Marion, Iowa
Posts: 1,769
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 205
With the single wall, even with clips and channel, you still have a physical path for sound waves to transfer directly from inside the theater to outside the theater....

Lets focus on what is different as we know that more drywall mass and products like GreenGlue are great, but will be used in both of your examples. Again, focusing on walls only. Not the impact of ceilings or floors which can mess with a lot of work on the walls by allowing for flanking sound... Another topic for another time.

Take the wall with the clips and channel
The sound hits the drywall layers, then via screws and physical contact transfer to the hat channel. From there, they physically transfer to the clips, and from the clips touching the studs and the screw holding each clip, get transfered to the stud, which then goes to the drywall outside the room. If the wall cavities have insulation in them, this helps with some of the sound absoprtion that gets through, but by nature, it too will physically connect the inside and outside walls.

Now, don't get me wrong, there are a lot of great things happening there to reduce contact points, add vibration absorption (depending on the clips), etc... I am in no way bashing that. Just offering what can happen with sound.

Now, if you take the double wall, you take the same drywall layers, sound hits that, transfers through physical contact and the screws to the studs... The physical connection stops right there. Insulate the "inside" wall for a little more sound absorption, but don't insulate the outside. Then the whole theater wall is "decoupled" from the outside wall (again, ignoring floors and ceilings for this discussion).

the air gap actually help (from what I have studied) to isolate the sound, plus the lack of a physical connection between the two walls stops pretty much all direct contact sound from getting out of the room.

Now, there are potential problems with the double wall... You lose sq footage somewhere to accomodate the thick walls. The walls being thicker also mean that you need to be a little creative with your door. I used a door with a custom sized jamb for my approximately 7.5" thick wall (double 5/8" drywall, width of the top/bottom 2x6 plates, outside 5/8"drywall). It really in the end was not an issue. You will need a custom door jamb with the clips/channel too, but just not as deep.

Side note, a lot of high end recording studios seem to use the double wall install and have 2 doors, one swinging into the room and one swinging out to isolate things even more. Silly for a home theater in my opinion though.

So different methods, both are great, but with different results. I am not saying that you can't go single wall with clips/channel and be 1000% happy. I mean, I didn't go double wall all the way around, but looking back I should have considered it more. Since I built the room myself, lifting up lengths of wall that had twice the amount of studs as a normal wall got pretty heavy when working by myself. If you are hiring it done as part of the house build, they will bang through any of the wood construction pretty quickly no matter which way you go.

Hopefully that helps a little. I decided to subscribe to this thread so that I don't miss anything moving forward.
nickbuol is offline  
post #6 of 67 Old 06-27-2013, 02:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
nickbuol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Marion, Iowa
Posts: 1,769
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

<- in for learning and advice

How do you have time to be all over these forums? I've seen your name/avatar pop up more in the past few weeks than anyone elses. biggrin.gif
nickbuol is offline  
post #7 of 67 Old 06-27-2013, 07:53 PM
Newbie
 
D3ZINER's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi, I'm also new here and feel like I am studying for an exam -- but with everything still to learn! wink.gif

In my recent research, I have found a lot of opinions on decoupling the AV room walls (room-within-a-room) from the outside walls, and a few items on how to isolate said walls from the ceiling joists, but have yet to find much on isolating the wall and decoupling the wall from the actual FLOOR below it. I know that special connectors for the wall base plates must exist but I've had a tough time finding them; even pads of some sort, but my searches have been even less fruitful in that area, too.

Mine is a basement project with concrete floors, so obviously it is not as important as my ceiling will be... However, if I can cut down on any flanking by isolating the walls, then that would certainly be helpful, no? I am def considering building a floating floor, but again, what do I use to float it? There must be some kind of MLV or something that can be cut to fit under the base plates, but that still would leave me with isolating the connectors...

Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated! smile.gif

(and thanks in advance!)

-- jb
D3ZINER is offline  
post #8 of 67 Old 06-27-2013, 11:50 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
LeBon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Pebble Beach, CA
Posts: 668
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Check out http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing-solutions/soundproofing-floors/

I am building on a slab on grade floor, and will use a layer of 3/8" Serenity Mat, with a layer of 1/2" T&G OSB over that, then carpet pad and carpet.
LeBon is offline  
post #9 of 67 Old 06-28-2013, 04:59 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 22,408
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 776
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickbuol View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

<- in for learning and advice

How do you have time to be all over these forums? I've seen your name/avatar pop up more in the past few weeks than anyone elses. biggrin.gif

iPhone phone app smile.gif Dual monitor PC at work. Own your own business; and have an underlying desire to read about theaters instead of actually working smile.gif

It's like a nervous twitch to check my phone these days. Trying get ready for my own build. Can you tell I'm excited ?

I've been reading lots of threads on various topics. Mostly DIY speakers and Theater construction. I've always been active in HTPCs.

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
Mfusick is offline  
post #10 of 67 Old 06-28-2013, 06:08 AM
AVS Special Member
 
nickbuol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Marion, Iowa
Posts: 1,769
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBon View Post

Check out http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing-solutions/soundproofing-floors/

I am building on a slab on grade floor, and will use a layer of 3/8" Serenity Mat, with a layer of 1/2" T&G OSB over that, then carpet pad and carpet.

+100 on checking out their entire website. Ted White from SPC (link above) is pretty active around here. Those guys know their stuff and love to share their knowledge with others and find solutions based off of their knowledge/experience plus your needs/budget. Like I said, I am a total 100% DIY guy with these things. I do it for two main reasons, I like constructing things and I love saving money. So being "up-sold" into something more than the GreenGlue that I was going to buy was a hard sale for them, I wasn't sure how bad it would hurt my budget (that my wife was watching closely), and my wife also thought that some insulation in the ceiling would be enough, so even the 2 layers of drywall was "overkill" in her mind let alone the GG and staggered stud walls (and boxes around recessed lights, etc). I think that jumping up to adding clips and channel was less than $200 for a ceiling that ended up being 22x11 in a room 24x14 (long story, but my cheap butt was trying to save $50 on the inspection by getting all of my electrical inspected BEFORE drywall, and so I had to build my soffits prior to drywall, so the ceiling area was smaller. A small compromise that I dealt with to save $50. Just more proof that a little more money, even for a cheap-skate like me, made a TON of difference thanks to advice from SPC).

Of course D3ZINER is jumping the gun on fumarate's thread since we were talking walls... biggrin.gif
nickbuol is offline  
post #11 of 67 Old 06-28-2013, 06:08 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
fumarate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks Nick for your answer.
It was clear and easy to understand.
Based on your feedback I have researched some more.
It sounds like the air gap also helps to control the lower frequency sound better than just a single wall with clips and channel method?

The double stud wall construction with an air gap sounds like the best method.

I’m still debating if I will do the work myself or have someone else come in and do it.
I would like to save money and do it myself.
The single stud wall with clips and channels sounds a bit easier to do on your own. The double stud wall construction sounds like you will be building your own room within a room, a bit more of a challenge for a do it yourself project?

Please correct me, but the double stud wall construction then would be the following???:
Outside wall Drywall 5/8”
Standard Studs 24” OC + insulation R13? Or R19? in between
Air Gap 1 – 3”??
Inner wall Standard or Staggered?? Studs + insulation R13? Or R19? In between
Drywall 5/8” or OSB?
Green Glue
Drywall 5/8”

Is this correct?
fumarate is offline  
post #12 of 67 Old 06-28-2013, 07:25 AM
AVS Special Member
 
nickbuol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Marion, Iowa
Posts: 1,769
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by fumarate View Post

Thanks Nick for your answer.
It was clear and easy to understand.
Based on your feedback I have researched some more.
It sounds like the air gap also helps to control the lower frequency sound better than just a single wall with clips and channel method?

The double stud wall construction with an air gap sounds like the best method.

I’m still debating if I will do the work myself or have someone else come in and do it.
I would like to save money and do it myself.
The single stud wall with clips and channels sounds a bit easier to do on your own. The double stud wall construction sounds like you will be building your own room within a room, a bit more of a challenge for a do it yourself project?

Please correct me, but the double stud wall construction then would be the following???:
Outside wall Drywall 5/8”
Standard Studs 24” OC + insulation R13? Or R19? in between
Air Gap 1 – 3”??
Inner wall Standard or Staggered?? Studs + insulation R13? Or R19? In between
Drywall 5/8” or OSB?
Green Glue
Drywall 5/8”

Is this correct?

Pretty good.

See I was finishing my entire basement, so I bought myself a framing nailer. A bit pricey for a single room. I've used screws before (not as strong as nails) or the old nail/hammer method for smaller projects or before I had the framing nailer.

I would go 16" on center for studs. 24" is a "possibility" for exterior walls in *some* installs. General code/good practice is 16" OC. That is what people look for when trying to find studs inside a house once it is done. Plus the double layer drywall inside the theater will be heavy and you will want the structure..

If you insulate just the inside wall of the double wall, then you can go with a 1" gap. If you decide for some reason to insulate both sides, then I would go with a 3" gap. The air, like you said, will help with soundproofing. I know that in a staggered wall, you only insulate the inner wall so that there is an air gap of about 3.5" total.

So to maximize your space and keep costs down a touch, go with insulation on the inside wall only and have a 1" gap. I do NOT have any data to show what the different properties are for the inside and outside walls being insulated with the larger gap in the middle vs. a 1" gap and single (inner) wall being insulated. I would think that there would be some improvement, but not sure if it is enough to justify the insulation cost and additional 2" all around lost in sqft inside the room.
The studs can be lined up or staggered. It won't make a difference. If you use faced insulation (paper on one side which I read was a good idea) just staple it in place a little bit to hold it in the wall cavity that you want.

R19 insulation is designed for 5.5" thick (2x6 construction) walls. It won't work for what you want. The R13 will fit into the 2x4 wall cavity. I did use R19 above my ceiling, but again, different situation.

As for drywall vs. OSB for the first layer. 3/4" OSB *can* potentially resonate despite its thickness, but boy is it nice for screwing the drywall into as you will never "miss" with a drywall screw and I know that a number of people have used it in the past. I used it around my soffits and liked the properties mention about being able to put a drywall screw in anywhere I wanted.

Drywall is easier to cut (in my opinion), but also is less forgiving if it desides to "tear".

For more info on soundproofing with OBS/drywall you can read here:
http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?t=193

So here is a modified list from my perspective:

Outside wall
Drywall 5/8”
Standard Studs 16” OC
Air Gap 1”
Inner wall
Staggered Studs 16" OC + insulation R13 In between
Drywall 5/8” or OSB? (both have benefits/limitations)
Green Glue
Drywall 5/8”

Another tip to think about is using an acoustical sealer caulk on the edges/corners on the bottom layer of drywall/osb BEFORE putting up the GG and 2nd layer. I've heard of some success (dare I say it) with 50year silicone for a lot less cost. Probably not as much acoustical properties as the acoustical sealant, but significantly lower cost. Just be sure to get the 50 year pure silicone (clear stuff). It takes a little looking as most places stock 25year old, but I found mine at Lowes I think.
nickbuol is offline  
post #13 of 67 Old 06-28-2013, 08:39 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 22,408
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 776
My soon to start theater build is in a bonus room above 2 car garage. Below is a garage, and nothing above. 3 of the 4 walls are outside walls and there is no neighbors close by to worry about. 1 wall (left side if looking at screen) is 32' long and adjacent to the house. The garage is new contructtion but the home is exsisting. Most of the wall is closets or laudry room or bathroom but a small section is adjacent to a bedroom (mine+wifes). She's really easy going about the noise. I watched Die Hard last night in the bedroom on the projector and had the Denon AVR3312 on about -20 (which is loud for late night) and she slept through it and did not complain. She rarely does. (I Know how lucky I am wink.gif ) . Kids bedrooms are totally on other side of the house. Not a factor at all.

So- in short my sound proofing is less critical than many others- but I would still like to sound proof the wall between the bedroom and the theater. Because it's existing construction, next to new construction I have a feeling that the low frequency travel won't be as bad in my case since there is less direct structural connection between the wood and design elements.

I am much more concerned with building the room for optimal sound quality than I am about optimal sound proofing. I want the room to be quiet and sound great. But I am the second house on dead end street in a quiet neighborhood so there is little external noise getting in too.

My question: Is it smart to sound proof only 1 wall (the only common wall between living space and the theater) to save on costs? I am on a budget but would hate to half ass it and forever regret it. I don't think the outside walls or even the floor is as critical in my situation. Sound going through to the outside, or polluting my garage is not a concern at all.

Would it be smart to only try sound proofing the common wall to save costs? Would it be a mistake?

Since it is new construction- what is the best option for me given my situation ? Would simple double DW+GG be ok ? I don't think I need clips. But since it's new contstruction I could easily do staggered studs I guess.

Looking forward to advice biggrin.gif

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
Mfusick is offline  
post #14 of 67 Old 06-28-2013, 09:03 AM
AVS Special Member
 
BllDo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 1,050
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
Liked: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickbuol View Post


So here is a modified list from my perspective:

Outside wall
Drywall 5/8”
Standard Studs 16” OC
Air Gap 1”
Inner wall
Staggered Studs 16" OC + insulation R13 In between
Drywall 5/8” or OSB? (both have benefits/limitations)
Green Glue
Drywall 5/8”

Another tip to think about is using an acoustical sealer caulk on the edges/corners on the bottom layer of drywall/osb BEFORE putting up the GG and 2nd layer. I've heard of some success (dare I say it) with 50year silicone for a lot less cost. Probably not as much acoustical properties as the acoustical sealant, but significantly lower cost. Just be sure to get the 50 year pure silicone (clear stuff). It takes a little looking as most places stock 25year old, but I found mine at Lowes I think.

If you are doing a double wall, you don't need to do staggered studs on the inside wall. Zero benefit.

If I remember correctly, Ted and John are going away from recomending acoustical caulk as the benefits havn't been thourghly proven. I could be wrong on that though.

Edit: Link to the referenced post:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1450185/understanding-sound-damping-with-green-glue#post_22804701

-




Is it solipsistic in here, or is it just me?
BllDo is offline  
post #15 of 67 Old 06-28-2013, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
fumarate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thank you for the information.
In the double stud wall construction, which wall will contain the electrical/audio/data/video/etc wiring runs/conduits?
The outer or inner wall?


This will be a complete new home construction so nothing currently is built out.
As I have stated, 2 of the 4 walls will be outside/exterior walls, should these walls be addressed for sound (via clips and channels) or not?? Kind of along the lines of Mfusick’s question.
If going with the double stud wall construction I assume it does not matter if the outer wall is an outside/exterior wall or not since you will be building a complete (4 wall) room within a room???

Since it is new construction can I just have the builder construct the room in a normal manner (just talking about walls for now I know flanking will have to also be addressed), but just leave off the last step on the outer walls (drywall)?
Then I can construct the inner wall myself in the room?

If cost is not a concern could I have the builder construct both the outer and inner walls, putting the first layer of drywall on and I just finish the job by doing the last step which is the Green Glue+Dry wall on the inner wall?
fumarate is offline  
post #16 of 67 Old 06-28-2013, 09:09 AM
AVS Special Member
 
BllDo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 1,050
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
Liked: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

My question: Is it smart to sound proof only 1 wall (the only common wall between living space and the theater) to save on costs? I am on a budget but would hate to half ass it and forever regret it. I don't think the outside walls or even the floor is as critical in my situation. Sound going through to the outside, or polluting my garage is not a concern at all.

Would it be smart to only try sound proofing the common wall to save costs? Would it be a mistake?

Since it is new construction- what is the best option for me given my situation ? Would simple double DW+GG be ok ? I don't think I need clips. But since it's new contstruction I could easily do staggered studs I guess.

Looking forward to advice biggrin.gif

Soundproofing is really going to be an all or nothing deal. If you just do one wall, the sound would find other paths into your room.

Double drywall and gg would certianly be better than nothing. That on top of staggered studs would also go a long way. You still have to think about your lights, electrical outlets, light switches... Any hole in your drywall shell will be a weak point in your plan.

-




Is it solipsistic in here, or is it just me?
BllDo is offline  
post #17 of 67 Old 06-28-2013, 09:18 AM
AVS Special Member
 
BllDo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 1,050
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
Liked: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by fumarate View Post

Thank you for the information.
In the double stud wall construction, which wall will contain the electrical/audio/data/video/etc wiring runs/conduits?
The outer or inner wall?

Usually inner wall. You can also run the wires inside the drywall shell and avoid a lot holes.
Quote:
This will be a complete new home construction so nothing currently is built out.
As I have stated, 2 of the 4 walls will be outside/exterior walls, should these walls be addressed for sound (via clips and channels) or not?? Kind of along the lines of Mfusick’s question.
If going with the double stud wall construction I assume it does not matter if the outer wall is an outside/exterior wall or not since you will be building a complete (4 wall) room within a room???

You don't need to do an extra wall "outer wall" along the exterior wall. The idea is that the inside walls (and ceiling) of your room are all seperate from anything next to the room.
Quote:
Since it is new construction can I just have the builder construct the room in a normal manner (just talking about walls for now I know flanking will have to also be addressed), but just leave off the last step on the outer walls (drywall)?
Then I can construct the inner wall myself in the room?

If cost is not a concern could I have the builder construct both the outer and inner walls, putting the first layer of drywall on and I just finish the job by doing the last step which is the Green Glue+Dry wall on the inner wall?

Most contractors won't have a clue how to do this right. Your safest bet is to do as much yourself after you have a good plan. Ted and John can review your plan and help point you in the right direction. There is a lot to think about including HVAC that really needs to be addressed before you pick up a hammer.

Also, Dennis Erskine et al has fairly reasonable package to help with your overall theater planning. Worthing looking into.

-




Is it solipsistic in here, or is it just me?
BllDo is offline  
post #18 of 67 Old 06-28-2013, 09:36 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 22,408
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 776
Quote:
Originally Posted by BllDo View Post


Soundproofing is really going to be an all or nothing deal. If you just do one wall, the sound would find other paths into your room.

Double drywall and gg would certianly be better than nothing. That on top of staggered studs would also go a long way. You still have to think about your lights, electrical outlets, light switches... Any hole in your drywall shell will be a weak point in your plan.

Hi,

Thanks for the speed response and intelligent reply!

I do understand what your saying. So far the idea is for me to staggered stud wall the common wall upon construction. From a new contstruction level- it's not too hard or too costly I'd assume (yes?) Some extra 2x4's, perhaps a wider top and bottom plate for the staggered studs- it just doesn't seem that big a deal to do on a new construction project. That should de-couple my common wall. Then I'd plan to use double DW+GG on that common wall.

I could easily do backer boxes for the outlets too.

What I am not understanding is how significant the transmission of sound would be from other areas ???

I'd imagine by the time it leaks out into the garage or outside it's not going to be powerful enough to get into the bedroom. The attic space is not common, the peak of the house and garage go in opposite directions.

How is sound going to leak out through three outside walls ? Or a ceiling through attic that is not common? Or through floor into garage... into kitchen and back up through floor ?

is there a point in doing staggered studs on an outside wall ?

I might be noob and not understanding something so please accept my ignorance if so. I really want to get this right- but I'd really like to avoid overspending.. Sound proofing is very low on my list of important things and it's far below my top priority of budget and value. I don't have all the funds I need to do all the things I want- so if I do full on sound proofing it will be at the expensive of something else that's more important to me.

The things I am trying to understand are:

Would soundproofing only 1 common wall be worthwhile ? Problems?
How / where would sound pollute the bedroom other than the common wall ?
Best method and approach for my situation ? Is staggered studs + double DW+GG on common wall enough given my situation and the fact I don't need perfect or absolute sound proofing ? I just want it a little better.


And last- and no one seems to want to give me an answer on this:

Is sound proofing related to SQ or improve the sound of my room? Assuming there is little noise pollution entering my theater due to the fact I have a quiet street and area and generally quiet home on most occasions- why would I need to sound proof every wall and floor and ceiling ? Sound won't be entering the theater- and I only need to keep it out of one room. Much more important to me is how good I can make my room sound. If someone said to me that a double room inside a room with staggered studs and triple layers of DW+GG would make the room sound superior and perform superior I'd do it in a second. Sound proofing is significantly less important to me- my wife lets me watch movies in the bedroom in full surround with subs right now, so obviously when this project is over moving into another room is going to improve my situation which isn't even a problem very much.

Perhaps my situation is unique in that I am not seeing the full value of soundproofing- so I'm hoping someone can aware me.

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
Mfusick is offline  
post #19 of 67 Old 06-28-2013, 09:40 AM
AVS Special Member
 
nickbuol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Marion, Iowa
Posts: 1,769
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by BllDo View Post

If you are doing a double wall, you don't need to do staggered studs on the inside wall. Zero benefit.

If I remember correctly, Ted and John are going away from recomending acoustical caulk as the benefits havn't been thourghly proven. I could be wrong on that though.

The staggered wall is so that you can more easily attach the paper-faced insulation. That is all. I apologize for making it sound like they served another purpose.
nickbuol is offline  
post #20 of 67 Old 06-28-2013, 09:44 AM
AVS Special Member
 
nickbuol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Marion, Iowa
Posts: 1,769
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by fumarate View Post

Thank you for the information.
In the double stud wall construction, which wall will contain the electrical/audio/data/video/etc wiring runs/conduits?
The outer or inner wall?


This will be a complete new home construction so nothing currently is built out.
As I have stated, 2 of the 4 walls will be outside/exterior walls, should these walls be addressed for sound (via clips and channels) or not?? Kind of along the lines of Mfusick’s question.
If going with the double stud wall construction I assume it does not matter if the outer wall is an outside/exterior wall or not since you will be building a complete (4 wall) room within a room???

Since it is new construction can I just have the builder construct the room in a normal manner (just talking about walls for now I know flanking will have to also be addressed), but just leave off the last step on the outer walls (drywall)?
Then I can construct the inner wall myself in the room?

If cost is not a concern could I have the builder construct both the outer and inner walls, putting the first layer of drywall on and I just finish the job by doing the last step which is the Green Glue+Dry wall on the inner wall?

Yes, it should be 4 walls inside the other 4 walls.

You could ask the builder to leave off the drywall on the one side and then you build the inside room yourself, however I don't know if they will let you since they are required to provide a finished product, pass inspections, etc.

Having them build the two walls and put the first layer of drywall is a good option. They would need to know that you plan to put another layer of drywall with GG on top of that so that they can get the correct electrical boxes (that are deep enough) put in.
nickbuol is offline  
post #21 of 67 Old 06-28-2013, 09:52 AM
AVS Special Member
 
nickbuol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Marion, Iowa
Posts: 1,769
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by BllDo View Post

Any hole in your drywall shell will be a weak point in your plan.

+1

I made boxes for around my lights, AV cables, etc. I used "putty pads" around outlets and so on. My wife thought I was nuts, even other home theater people thought it was "going that extra step" beyond what they were ever able to do, but if you are investing in part of it, you should invest just a little more in all of it.

Again, overall the cost to add a great amount of soundproofing really wasn't much in the total cost of things. I mean we are talking a few hundred (not thousand) dollars for a HUGE improvement over nothing.
nickbuol is offline  
post #22 of 67 Old 06-28-2013, 10:00 AM
AVS Special Member
 
nickbuol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Marion, Iowa
Posts: 1,769
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by BllDo View Post

You don't need to do an extra wall "outer wall" along the exterior wall. The idea is that the inside walls (and ceiling) of your room are all seperate from anything next to the room.
I would disagree. You are leaving two entire room walls coupled to the rest of the house allowing for the flanking path of the sound. How much is debatable though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BllDo 
If you just do one wall, the sound would find other paths into your room.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BllDo 
Most contractors won't have a clue how to do this right. Your safest bet is to do as much yourself after you have a good plan. Ted and John can review your plan and help point you in the right direction. There is a lot to think about including HVAC that really needs to be addressed before you pick up a hammer.

So true. Contractors can screw things up quickly. Ted and John are awesome. Do NOT forget the HVAC. I thought that I had it figured out with 2 supplies, but completely forgot about a return to pull air out. Plus in winter (or when needing to run heat for your main part of your house) how will you compensate for equipment/body heat in the room? Close the supply vents, but the heat will still build. With soundproofing, you end up with one of the most air-tight rooms ever, so with the supplies closed, it is like trying to suck on a straw with your finger over the other end. Nothing happens because you can't remove the air from the straw without adding more air (removing your finger). Same with the supply of A/C. If you finger is on the other end of the straw, you can't blow into it. Just like you can't blow cool air into the theater without having somewhere for the extra (warm) air to go out.
nickbuol is offline  
post #23 of 67 Old 06-28-2013, 10:15 AM
AVS Special Member
 
BllDo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 1,050
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
Liked: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickbuol View Post

I would disagree. You are leaving two entire room walls coupled to the rest of the house allowing for the flanking path of the sound. How much is debatable though.

I agree with this and I maybe misunderstood what was being asked. My thought was that if you already have an outer exterior wall, your inner theater wall would already be seperated from that by an air gap equal to that of the other double stud walls on the interior portion of the house. You would not couple any of the theater walls outside of maybe using IB-3 clips.

-




Is it solipsistic in here, or is it just me?
BllDo is offline  
post #24 of 67 Old 06-28-2013, 10:16 AM
AVS Special Member
 
nickbuol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Marion, Iowa
Posts: 1,769
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 205
Mfusick, short answer is this.

Yes, even a single wall will help, however the effectiveness is greatly diminished when other common walls/open spaces for sound to travel are present.

Inside a house like original asked by fumarate is going to be different than in a garage space. For example, I can hear the TV in our upstairs living room from inside our bedroom very well, but not the home theater below the bedroom. The living room wall, even if "sound proofed" wouldn't help a ton because the living room connects to a hallway right to the bedroom, plus the physical flanking through the ceiling, floor, one common side wall, etc.

In a garage situation, you would get a potentially better as some homes are actually built in such a fashion that the house is build, and the garage is attached almost like a separate building stuck to the side of the house, this providing more "mass" I guess or some level of additional isolation.

It is a tough call since you are talking about above the garage which the floor, ceiling, and 1 wall are directly connected to the rest of the living space. Doing just one wall probably won't yield the results you are possibly wanting, but I personally have no experience with that type of setup so all of this rambling is just unproven (to the point of a room above a garage) ramblings. Sorry.

I would still stick by any common structure (wall, floor, ceiling) will be a weak spot. Walls are about the easiest to handle, so I see the appeal to doing that first.
nickbuol is offline  
post #25 of 67 Old 06-28-2013, 10:18 AM
AVS Special Member
 
nickbuol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Marion, Iowa
Posts: 1,769
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by BllDo View Post

I agree with this and I maybe misunderstood what was being asked. My thought was that if you already have an outer exterior wall, your inner theater wall would already be seperated from that by an air gap equal to that of the other double stud walls on the interior portion of the house. You would not couple any of the theater walls outside of maybe using IB-3 clips.

We are probably meaning the same thing, just saying it different. biggrin.gif

Thanks for adding all of your insight to this thread too.
nickbuol is offline  
post #26 of 67 Old 06-28-2013, 10:30 AM
AVS Special Member
 
BllDo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 1,050
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
Liked: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Hi,

Thanks for the speed response and intelligent reply!

I do understand what your saying. So far the idea is for me to staggered stud wall the common wall upon construction. From a new contstruction level- it's not too hard or too costly I'd assume (yes?) Some extra 2x4's, perhaps a wider top and bottom plate for the staggered studs- it just doesn't seem that big a deal to do on a new construction project. That should de-couple my common wall. Then I'd plan to use double DW+GG on that common wall.

I could easily do backer boxes for the outlets too.

What I am not understanding is how significant the transmission of sound would be from other areas ???

I'd imagine by the time it leaks out into the garage or outside it's not going to be powerful enough to get into the bedroom. The attic space is not common, the peak of the house and garage go in opposite directions.

How is sound going to leak out through three outside walls ? Or a ceiling through attic that is not common? Or through floor into garage... into kitchen and back up through floor ?

is there a point in doing staggered studs on an outside wall ?

I might be noob and not understanding something so please accept my ignorance if so. I really want to get this right- but I'd really like to avoid overspending.. Sound proofing is very low on my list of important things and it's far below my top priority of budget and value. I don't have all the funds I need to do all the things I want- so if I do full on sound proofing it will be at the expensive of something else that's more important to me.

The things I am trying to understand are:

Would soundproofing only 1 common wall be worthwhile ? Problems?
How / where would sound pollute the bedroom other than the common wall ?
Best method and approach for my situation ? Is staggered studs + double DW+GG on common wall enough given my situation and the fact I don't need perfect or absolute sound proofing ? I just want it a little better.


And last- and no one seems to want to give me an answer on this:

Is sound proofing related to SQ or improve the sound of my room? Assuming there is little noise pollution entering my theater due to the fact I have a quiet street and area and generally quiet home on most occasions- why would I need to sound proof every wall and floor and ceiling ? Sound won't be entering the theater- and I only need to keep it out of one room. Much more important to me is how good I can make my room sound. If someone said to me that a double room inside a room with staggered studs and triple layers of DW+GG would make the room sound superior and perform superior I'd do it in a second. Sound proofing is significantly less important to me- my wife lets me watch movies in the bedroom in full surround with subs right now, so obviously when this project is over moving into another room is going to improve my situation which isn't even a problem very much.

Perhaps my situation is unique in that I am not seeing the full value of soundproofing- so I'm hoping someone can aware me.

Ok, so first, as you seem to very clearly understand, soundproofing is more about keeping sound from getting into your theater. I think the ideal for your theater is something like 22dB noise floor. The secondary benefit is that it helps to keep sound from escaping the theater (writing more the benefit of the unfamiliar.) Given this, your room may not need the full-on soundproofing treatment. Additionally, if you are as deaf as I am, you're not going to hear something that is as soft as 22dB. And again a full treatment may be a waste of time and money. These are things you, the builder, will have to decide.

However, a second point you really need to think about, is that you have one shot to do this right. It will be much more cost effective to put extra in right now than it would be to rip it out and start over. Just because you may not have a lot of noise right now, doesn't mean that at some point in the future, it can't happen. Kids, changes in neighboring room purpose, flight path changes...stuff you just can't predict. It is easier to upgrade your equipment than your room.

I would say you are probably fine with DDW+GG on stagger studs, backer boxes on your lights and putty pads on your outlets. Maybe think about putting something on the floor for soundproof as well to minimize flanking.

The soundproofing will not do much for the SQ other than keeping your noise floor down. Good design and acoustical treatments will take care of the SQ.

-




Is it solipsistic in here, or is it just me?
BllDo is offline  
post #27 of 67 Old 06-28-2013, 10:54 AM
Newbie
 
D3ZINER's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Of course D3ZINER is jumping the gun on fumarate's thread since we were talking walls.

Sorry, didn't intend to thread jack. I thought it was pertinent since it was wall- and construction related.

-- jb
D3ZINER is offline  
post #28 of 67 Old 06-28-2013, 12:42 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
fumarate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by BllDo View Post

Usually inner wall. You can also run the wires inside the drywall shell and avoid a lot holes.

This sounds intriguing.

Can you please elaborate?

Are you saying to run wires in-between the two drywall layers glued together??

I understand that my goal is to have a complete enclosed space not allowing sound to escape through any holes in my walls.
Anyway to help improve my chances with this are welcome.
fumarate is offline  
post #29 of 67 Old 06-28-2013, 12:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
nickbuol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Marion, Iowa
Posts: 1,769
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by D3ZINER View Post

Sorry, didn't intend to thread jack. I thought it was pertinent since it was wall- and construction related.

-- jb

LOL. I think you are fine. I was just giving you a hard time.
nickbuol is offline  
post #30 of 67 Old 06-28-2013, 12:57 PM
AVS Special Member
 
BllDo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 1,050
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
Liked: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by fumarate View Post

This sounds intriguing.

Can you please elaborate?

Are you saying to run wires in-between the two drywall layers glued together??

I understand that my goal is to have a complete enclosed space not allowing sound to escape through any holes in my walls.
Anyway to help improve my chances with this are welcome.

No, not inbetween the drywal, just inside the room. Let's say you have your equipment rack just outside your room. All your speaker, video, cat6, etc wires would collect there and then enter the room in one spot. Same with electrical (just a different spot). Then all your wires will run through your soffits or some other enclosed area with in the room. The result then is just two holes to worry about rather than multiple holes for every outlet and light switch.
This does require a bit more work and planning to make sure you are meeting code for your electrical services.

Check out Moogie's thread for some great detail on room in a room construction.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1117148/saga-of-the-old-vic

-




Is it solipsistic in here, or is it just me?
BllDo is offline  
Reply Dedicated Theater Design & Construction

Tags
Denon Avr3312ci Receiver , Green Glue Noiseproofing Compound 12 Tubes
Gear in this thread

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off