Is there really any point in soundproofing? Is it a scam? Help me gain clarity please !!! - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 85 Old 07-05-2013, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Is it much harder to do outlet boxes and stuff with double DW ?

Mount the boxes as normal if not clipping then use extension rings and longer screws to attach the outlets/switches. If clipping then you'll need to bring the boxes forward to meet up with the backside of the first layer of drywall. Or you can use adjustable boxes. I just went with extension rings myself as they're about 80 cents each for a single gang from an electrical supplier.

Soundproofingcompany.com has diagrams of how to mount the boxes with some 2x4 blocks so the boxes are sufficiently proud to penetrate the first layer of drywall when it's a clipped wall.
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post #62 of 85 Old 07-05-2013, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I am leaning towards the idea clips are not good for my situation, it seems hard to do, more expensive and so far nothing I find shows they work all that well compared to staggered studs.

Is it much harder to do outlet boxes and stuff with double DW ?

Just to be clear, clips would be for your ceiling primarily. Yes you can use clips and channel for your walls, but staggered stud (or even better, just a completely separate stud wall from the outer envelope) is better and cheaper. In fact, I believe Ted has concluded that separate stud walls are significantly better than a staggered stud wall, and since you have plenty of space I would recommend that.

double drywall does not make it harder for outlet boxes - there are lots of different mounting options to accommodate. Your door framing becomes a little bit trickier, but nothing that isn't manageable.
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post #63 of 85 Old 07-05-2013, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by greedo View Post

The thing about putting acoustic treatments ahead of sound isolation, is that you can always go back and add treatments to a room. It's very difficult to go back and put clips/GG/DD in an existing room.

Maybe in theory, but trust me - no-one wants to finish a home theater, then go back later and rip off all the finishings to add the treatments that should have been there in the first place. Besides, acoustic treatments are not optional, if you want your room to sound good.
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post #64 of 85 Old 07-05-2013, 10:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BllDo View Post

By open do you mean that your room will have no doors, completely open concept?

It will have two doors. One door going to my bedroom. I plan to use MDF layers with GG on it to thicken it up. That is the common wall I was most concerned about.

The second door is the guest entrance or main entrance to the theater which will be a staircase and hall way up to the theater. The entrance is in the back of the theater on the left side if you are looking at the screen. It's all one big 34x24 room above my garage.

I want to do a false screen wall about 30" from the front. I want to start my first row about 12 feet back. I want a second row perhaps 4 or 5 feet more back ( A couch flanked by non recliner type chairs on side ) All my chairs will be black leather. If I have lots of room I would consider doing a shallow row of "cheap" seats like a commercial movie theater folder types. If I don't have room I would skip it. Behind the last row would be a counter top that you could eat or drink at watching the main screen. Behind that is the bar - against the back wall. I'd like to do a 10 foot wide bar I think that could wrap around. I'd like the entrance side to be a candy counter display glass box and popcorn machine for the effect of it.

Something like this:



I did not take too much time to be accurate but you get the idea ^

I'm thinking first row 12 feet back (column on side for sides)

Second row about 5 feet back more (another column for more sides) Second row will probably be a couch so I can be lazy and sleep or lay on it for non critical personal viewing.

I 'm having a tough concept with the back two speakers. I could either build them into the counter top on the sides or into it and have the curtains close between the bar and counter behind them. Or- I could put them in the back and just have them get blocked but the curtains closed- but that defeats the purpose of having backs and curtains for critical viewing.

Other option would be a drop down center curtain I guess.

Perhaps the whole idea is stupid ???

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post #65 of 85 Old 07-05-2013, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kromkamp View Post

Maybe in theory, but trust me - no-one wants to finish a home theater, then go back later and rip off all the finishings to add the treatments that should have been there in the first place. Besides, acoustic treatments are not optional, if you want your room to sound good.

Winner WInner chicken dinner !!!!

I want it to look great and sound great. That means planning for acoustic treatment from the beginning and having it part of the plans.

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post #66 of 85 Old 07-05-2013, 10:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kromkamp View Post

Just to be clear, clips would be for your ceiling primarily. Yes you can use clips and channel for your walls, but staggered stud (or even better, just a completely separate stud wall from the outer envelope) is better and cheaper. In fact, I believe Ted has concluded that separate stud walls are significantly better than a staggered stud wall, and since you have plenty of space I would recommend that.

double drywall does not make it harder for outlet boxes - there are lots of different mounting options to accommodate. Your door framing becomes a little bit trickier, but nothing that isn't manageable.

Thanks ! I would probably thicken up a door with some MDF and GG to accommodate and add some beefy sound proofing in the door area. That seems easy enough.

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post #67 of 85 Old 07-05-2013, 03:12 PM
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I would chime in that it's one thing to build the bunker, and then you have to cut holes in the bunker. Doors, ventilation, recessed lighting will all compromise the job. Best to acknowledge this and plan ahead.

Double wall framing where you can.

A little R13 fiberglass. (the cheap stuff)

Double 5/8" drywall (the cheap stuff)

Damp the drywall panels (use less damping compound to save $)

For the ceiling, decouple with clips (cheap ones) and channel, some R19, then double 5/8" drywall again, damped.

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post #68 of 85 Old 07-07-2013, 08:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ted White View Post

I would chime in that it's one thing to build the bunker, and then you have to cut holes in the bunker. Doors, ventilation, recessed lighting will all compromise the job. Best to acknowledge this and plan ahead.

Double wall framing where you can.

A little R13 fiberglass. (the cheap stuff)

Double 5/8" drywall (the cheap stuff)

Damp the drywall panels (use less damping compound to save $)

For the ceiling, decouple with clips (cheap ones) and channel, some R19, then double 5/8" drywall again, damped.

Hi Ted ,

Thanks for the reply.

I am very appreciative of your help. In doing research your expertise and knowledge on this area is obvious to me and I'm thankful for your advice.

Perhaps you can help me with a couple things. I am convinced I want to low noise floor in my theater and I want good audio. I really don't care at all about sound leaving the theater, but I do care about sound entering it. Soundproofing for a theater to me seems much more about keeping unwanted sounds from getting in- perhaps I am a purist or just different? I get confused since so much reading and info seems to try to keep the theater's sound from effecting others: I see no point in this personally. I'd just turn it down if it's a problem, and it is very unlikely to be a problem for me.

First question,

How much performance is gained by double wall versus staggered studs ? Assuming double DW+GG for both ?? Is it worth losing a foot of width for the real double wall considering I'm tight on budget and there is likely other weaker areas to spoil the great results of my double wall + DD+GG ?? Is there a big difference between a Staggered Stud wall with DD+GG and a double frame wall with 2" gap between top/bottom plates with the same DD+GG ? Would it be worth it to save the extra foot of width and do a staggered stud +DD+DW since it might be more on par with sound proofing performance total I will get from floor and ceiling ? Is there a point in going all out on the walls if the other areas are weaker ?

Second Question,

How much difference is Clips for the ceiling versus just DD+GG ? If I chose to do DD+GG on the ceiling without any clips or channel would I get ok results? The cost of the clips and channels is not the only factor for me asking this; I also fear the installation of them. My ceiling will go up in the center (it's not flat all the way across the room) and I might have it slope a bit for audio/acoustical design reasons. A non flat ceiling should help audio performance- and also I want a star ceiling in the center that can double for some sound absorption. But I am not sure my design scenario will lend itself well to clips. But- I am admittedly noob at the installation process of them. My thinking was DD+GG might be sufficient given my limited budget and modest expectations for sound proofing performance . Am I way off? Would a DD+GG ceiling be ok ? Would it work better with a staggered stud walls and save me a foot of width and some cost ? How much better is clips versus no clips given the same DD+GG ? Big difference ?

Third,

What about the floor? What do I do about the floor? Can I just do a second layer of subfloor with GG ? Is there a better option ?


If anyone else has some info on this or advice I'd be interested in hearing it. My thought process is that if I am not going to go extreme everywhere then a basic approach everywhere is better than extreme in some places and weak in others. It seems a better balance for me given my modest expectations. A mufler is only a few inches but obvious it can make a lot of noise. Since I will have three doors, (one is sealed bathroom, one bedroom and one entrance) is't unlikely I can achieve a perfect level of soundproofing, nor can I afford it. Wondering if just double GG+DW is ok on the ceiling ??? Wondering about the floor ?

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post #69 of 85 Old 07-11-2013, 09:17 PM
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This seemed a good a thread as any (since it was started by Mfusik) to spotlight his prolific post rate. I stumbled on these stats -- insane! wink.gif



Not quite the all time winner, but my money is on Mfusik.

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post #70 of 85 Old 07-12-2013, 05:10 AM
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Wow, he gets around... I mean that in respectful way of course.biggrin.gif
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post #71 of 85 Old 07-12-2013, 05:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Lol. I've definitely increased my post rate and the amount of time I'm spending on AVS recently.

I've always been an HTPC geek in recent years , but I've calmed down on audio, video and rarely came into this forum. My projector, screen, AVR, sub, speakers and room have been pretty stagnant.

Then we decide to do a remodel of the house and immediately I get excited because for a decade I've wanted to build a dedicated theater but refused to do it unless I could do it right. Once I started reading and researching more and more doors keep opening. I'm consuming information like a Hoover vacuum smile.gif

I found some subs in my dads garage and ventured into the DIY audio forum for some sub box advice and I got bitten by that bug too.

My passion for A/V has recently been renewed. I can post on my phone with AVS mobile , and of coarse work and home. I guess I need to calm down.

@Moggie- I think I read your build thread like 4 times biggrin.gif

You can spend years on just soundproofing if you really wanted. There's no such thing as "too much" I guess.

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post #72 of 85 Old 07-17-2013, 01:34 PM
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It looks like Ted provided a good bang for the buck scenario. I would double frame even if you decide you can't do the rest bc of budget constraints. I don't think it would hurt things for any reason but ask an expert just in case. The extra materials are cheap and so is your labor.

I would take a hard look at your budget and go from there. If you can't do it then there is no sense fretting over it. Your room will still be amazing without it.

I do think that your hearing loss is a good reason to lower the noise floor of the room. However if your tinnitus is unbearable Ina quiet room then maybe the cons outweigh the pros. Not sure. But your ability to hear dialogue and details should increase quite a bit.

I don't remember if you said you had been in a sound isolated room before. That should be a priority for you to see what you think. My sole experience in a sound isolated room left a lasting impression and assured me that what I was doing was going to make a large difference in the experience inside of the room.
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post #73 of 85 Old 07-17-2013, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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You hit the nail on the head. I want a quiet room- but not an ultra quiet room. I will hear ringing when it's dead quiet. But it's far easier to make a quiet room noisy than a noisy room quiet- so I'd prefer to shoot for perfection along the way and remain happy if I get 80% of the way there.

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post #74 of 85 Old 07-17-2013, 02:37 PM
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Is there a sound isolated room nearby that you can go to? You would need a good microphone to measure the noise floor. You could do a simple exercise whereby if the low noise floor makes your tinnitus worse you would the. Introdu e ambient noise into the room. I don't know the best way to do this but it would nice to increase the noise of the hvac or something until you find a good balance between the tinnitus and being able to hear the details in the recording.

If you decide that an ultra low noise floor is not what is best overall then save your money. But pay special attention to what some other posters here have said about the room becoming a sometimes participant in the playback. So you still need good construction techniques especially if you will have powerful subwoofers.
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post #75 of 85 Old 07-17-2013, 03:04 PM
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Where in MA are you located? You are certainly welcome to check out my room any time. I am in Albany, NY. (I went for the soundproofing and am extremely glad I did.)

The Esquire Theater Construction Thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1289590
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post #76 of 85 Old 07-17-2013, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I will hear ringing when it's dead quiet.

Slightly OT: Went to a McCartney concert last night; row 24 dead center. I will hear ringing when I am dead. biggrin.gif
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post #77 of 85 Old 07-17-2013, 05:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Where in MA are you located? You are certainly welcome to check out my room any time. I am in Albany, NY. (I went for the soundproofing and am extremely glad I did.)

I am in Western MA. Albany is about an hour for me.

I would love to take you up on the offer. Wow. That would be awesome!

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post #78 of 85 Old 07-17-2013, 05:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Slightly OT: Went to a McCartney concert last night; row 24 dead center. I will hear ringing when I am dead. biggrin.gif

Loudest concert I ever saw (and I have seen a lot) was easily KISS at the Springfield MA civic center. Second place isn't even close.

Metallica, Pantera, 5 Finger Deathpunch, BlackSabbath with Ozzy at Ozzfest get honorable mentions.

But none was even close to how loud Kiss was. It was amazing those guys can hear anything at all. Clearly detrimental to your health.

If I knew better in my teens and 20's I would have protected myself, and went a little less crazy playing drums and guitars in my house, and less extreme with the car stereo's.
Big regret I have now in my 30's.

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post #79 of 85 Old 07-18-2013, 06:31 AM
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[Thread Hijack]
Loudest concert I ever saw was Blue Oyster Cult at the old Spectrum in Philly back in the 70s.
And I saw Black Sabbath there, too.
[/END Thread Hijack]

[edit]
Check that....BOC was in the 80s...Black Sabbath in the 70s.

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post #80 of 85 Old 07-18-2013, 09:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Sabbath is touring now with Ozzy again and they have a pretty crazy set up. Something like 100 18" folded horn subs ... Lol

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post #81 of 85 Old 07-22-2013, 05:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok time to get back on topic.

What about all the holes I cut in the Sheetrock for wires, light cans, outlets, HVAC. Is there a specific solution ?

Putty pads seem easy. Is that preferred over backer boxes? If I build a soffit inside the room there is no reason to soundproof that if the outer layer is... Right ?

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post #82 of 85 Old 07-22-2013, 06:46 AM
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Putty pads are good for smaller openings like single gang wall boxes, but larger holes (i.e. grafik eye and recessed lighting) require backer boxes.

There are a myriad of uses for the soffits and whether or not they need to be soundproofed will depend largely on your individual design. For example, some people use them to install recessed lighting - this negates the need for some holes in your soundproof shell. In this case, you probably wouldn't require two drywall layers and GG. Others use the soffits as a place to hide HVAC ducting and create dead vents. Here, the soffits should have 2 layers of drywall and GG. Still others will make a simple lattice frame, apply acoustic treatments and cover the soffit in fabric, making a bass trap or other acoustically desirable treatment. There are also combinations/variations of all of these options.

Ted is of course the man help you with any of these options once you decide on a design. Good luck!

The Esquire Theater Construction Thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1289590
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post #83 of 85 Old 07-22-2013, 06:51 AM
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The soffit has also been used as a chase for electrical wiring. With careful planning, you could make one electrical penetration in your drywall shell and then run electrical through the soffit and down the inside of columns for your outlets. The outlets get placed on your columns (usually on the side to keep them less visible) rather than through your drywall.
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post #84 of 85 Old 07-30-2013, 05:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Spaceman View Post

The soffit has also been used as a chase for electrical wiring. With careful planning, you could make one electrical penetration in your drywall shell and then run electrical through the soffit and down the inside of columns for your outlets. The outlets get placed on your columns (usually on the side to keep them less visible) rather than through your drywall.

Since it is new construction 100% I can accommodate a lot of different things- getting the wires run prior to the drywall isn't a big deal for me. I am debating staggered stud versus double wall. If I went double wall- would I build stud frame inside the sheerocked room like a room inside a room ? Or do I just make a frame inside a frame, and not sheetrock the inside frame ? Keep in mind three of the four walls are exterior walls and second floor above garage.

Thoughts?

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post #85 of 85 Old 07-31-2013, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I am debating staggered stud versus double wall. If I went double wall- would I build stud frame inside the sheerocked room like a room inside a room ? Or do I just make a frame inside a frame, and not sheetrock the inside frame ? Keep in mind three of the four walls are exterior walls and second floor above garage.

Thoughts?

do not sheetrock the inside frame. search 'triple leaf effect' here to learn how it's counterproductive when soundproofing. The room inside a room concept is in relation to framing only. You sheetrock the inside frame only, leaving the desirable air cavity in between. That air cavity would benefit from some cheap insulation.
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