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post #1 of 42 Old 08-15-2013, 03:33 PM - Thread Starter
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I searched but didn't find a lot. It looked from (a LOT) of pictures people allowed about 2 foot for their the space behind their false wall. Whats a good distance here? I didn't want to put it up and realize I didn't give myself enough room. But I didn't want to eat up floor space if I used too much.

Also My room is 15 x 20. The screen is on the 15 foot wall. If my false wall eats up 2-3 foot my room becomes more square. Does the count against you as far as sound goes? I know square is not ideal, but I'm assuming that means a real square room. One that the speakers are really are in a square, in my case they will not be. Correct?

While I'm asking questions I will throw this out there also. Whats a good ceiling mount that isn't crazy expensive? Or is a ceiling mount just one of those things that's pretty general?
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post #2 of 42 Old 08-15-2013, 04:03 PM
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I had originally planned for about 2 feet, but will be actually allotting a little more - I think 30 inches. The speakers I've ended up with are deeper than I had expected, plus I'm going to give them about 6-8 inches clearance from the screen.

Don't consider the false wall when thinking about room acoustics in that way.

I can't help you with the projector mount. I figure I'll pay whatever it takes to make sure it mounts securely.


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post #3 of 42 Old 08-15-2013, 04:52 PM
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I have 25'' which IMHO is not enough...............hard to fit subs.

If I had done 30" like suggested above, I could have increased my sub options.

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post #4 of 42 Old 08-15-2013, 07:56 PM
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+1 for 30".

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post #5 of 42 Old 08-16-2013, 08:17 AM
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Like double wing said more is better when it comes to sub options. I made mine close to 32" which gives me enough room for my JTR orbit shifter sideways. Also don't forget about treatments for the rear wall. In my case it eats up 2 inches. And then consider the framing for the false wall and where you plan to measure your distance from ie the back of the framing or even with the screen. Then give an inch or two on either side of your subwoofer and you don't have as much space as you thought.


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post #6 of 42 Old 08-16-2013, 08:27 AM
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I have 30"... which is just enough. If it was any smaller though I'd be violating some "general rules" like recommended space between the front of the woofers and the screen, or room between rear ports and the wall. Plus if I have to make adjustments there is 0 room for me to get past my towers to my subs. If you have the space to spare, I'd do 36" if I did it again, but 30" is usually adequate. 24" would be too small for my gear


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post #7 of 42 Old 08-16-2013, 08:48 AM
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My room wasn't large enough to accommodate a deep false wall but I still wanted an AT screen. To to keep it shallow (10"), I went with in-wall LCRs and placed my sub in the back of the room. I'm already considering bumping out the portion of the false wall that sits under the screen to make room for a sub in the front of the room. If losing 30" in a 20' deep room is a concern, you could also look at bumping out the portion under your screen to make room for a larger sub. This would allow you to keep the screen closer to the front wall, giving you more favorable viewing distances.

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post #8 of 42 Old 08-16-2013, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jedimastergrant View Post

Like double wing said more is better when it comes to sub options. I made mine close to 32" which gives me enough room for my JTR orbit shifter sideways. Also don't forget about treatments for the rear wall. In my case it eats up 2 inches. And then consider the framing for the false wall and where you plan to measure your distance from ie the back of the framing or even with the screen. Then give an inch or two on either side of your subwoofer and you don't have as much space as you thought.

After hearing the OS's...........I had many sleepless nights trying to figure out how to re-frame front wall to accommodate. In the end........too many variables to change. Was not worth it........and my design was with a professional!!! eek.gif

The S2 was my only alternative due to 16'' depth.............but now I'm thinking sell the S2 and use 4 LMS Ultras due to possible score on cabs! Gotta love this hobby.........wink.gif

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post #9 of 42 Old 08-16-2013, 01:50 PM
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Ha ha. Ya know your out of control when you are thinking of selling those S2's already! If you were going to upgrade to something then the LMS 5400 quads would do it according to the experts. Of course you may find that you don't even need more headroom at all with your S2. Multiple subs would give you more placement options though.

To the OP. It is a balancing act and I know you do not want to give up seating space. Are you going to try to stuff in two rows? My first row is at 9.5' in my 15 x19 room.


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post #10 of 42 Old 08-16-2013, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
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I'd like two rows but honestly I don't think it would get used. I kinda prefer a lounge-ish sectional. I guess I haven't ironed that out yet. I do want to make the theater very adjustable. I want to be able to reduce screen size if I need to for say a fight night and need more room for seats. That way the closer row isn't overwhelmed. I just ordered 150" 16:9 XD screen. I just got the biggest I think I'd ever use. But I'll probably mask it down most of the time... but wanted it available if needed. I'm shooting to make as much as possible adjustable. If I want to watch a 3D movie and need the extra brightness, bring in the projector and brighten it up with a smaller screen. Disclaimer: (This idea is in its infancy and may be a disaster) but its not really costing me anything and gets me more play time with this "Hobby." cool.gif
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post #11 of 42 Old 08-16-2013, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Also, I'm leaning toward 36" for the false wall and calling it quits. I have ZERO audio right now. Some big PC speakers is all, but I can only build this thing a little bit at a time. So no use of having it setting there collecting dust. I hope one day I can get some massive subs to put back there. (I haven't even read that much into sub options, I'm open to anything. DIY seems the most fun!)
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post #12 of 42 Old 08-16-2013, 07:50 PM
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With DIY subs you should be able to keep your cabinet sizes small enough to fit behind 30-32'' even with multiple sealed 18'' drivers like many of the DIY guys advocate. The speakers may or may not need more space but you can get shallow speakers that take care of that potential problem.

On a more general note you might want to just start a thread to ask general build questions. It could help you with other questions that will come up. There are many other considerations in addition to the false wall distance as you already know. Of course there are lots of threads here to give you ideas as well. I wouldn't make any big purchases until you have these things sorted out.


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post #13 of 42 Old 08-16-2013, 08:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Good idea about build thread. I'm holding off on all audio until I have a broader understanding and I realize this is a DEEP subject. I have a lot to learn audio wise and just got started with that. I'm considering buying the theater book to get up to speed with less searching through long threads and more direct learning.
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post #14 of 42 Old 08-16-2013, 08:33 PM
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The theater book is especially useful if you plan to build a room. There is good info on building techniques and how it relates to acoustics in at least some instances when applicable.

If you just want to know more about acoustics in general then Floyd Tooles book is often cited as useful around here.
Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms


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post #15 of 42 Old 08-16-2013, 08:40 PM
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I did 24" to the front of the false wall, which with 2x3 framing left me with 21.5" - just barely enough to shoehorn a pair of THT LPs behind the screen. It worked out fine, but 30" would have been easier.


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post #16 of 42 Old 08-16-2013, 09:32 PM
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does a sub behind an AT screen not cause it to vibrate?

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post #17 of 42 Old 08-17-2013, 03:55 AM - Thread Starter
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I have read that it does not, but people are allowing a little bit of room between the sub/speakers and the screen.
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post #18 of 42 Old 08-17-2013, 08:55 AM
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I think if the screen was not fastened well it would vibrate.

Most builds fill the stage with sand so the stage is very solid and the false wall is less likely to start shaking.

What I have seen shake in other theaters with very powerful subs is the projector itself. I would be more concerned with the projector.


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post #19 of 42 Old 08-17-2013, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jedimastergrant View Post

I think if the screen was not fastened well it would vibrate.

Most builds fill the stage with sand so the stage is very solid and the false wall is less likely to start shaking.

What I have seen shake in other theaters with very powerful subs is the projector itself. I would be more concerned with the projector.

Great..............................................looking forward to the experience! Not! eek.gif

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post #20 of 42 Old 08-17-2013, 09:18 AM
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I think technically if you can get your speakers 3ft from the wall it allows you to cross over at 80hz and prevents some issues with audio calibrating. Closer to the wall your going to have some issues you might need to deal with. 30" might be a good compromise.

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post #21 of 42 Old 08-19-2013, 01:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Are we saying 30"-36" is a necessity for your mains and center or is it because of big subs? Or are they generally about the same depth requirements for both.
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post #22 of 42 Old 08-19-2013, 02:15 PM
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Upwards of 30 is mostly for big subs, but it depends also on what speakers you use. My speakers are 17" wide and 14" deep. Toed in, the front corner can be about 20" from the wall. Other speakers may have rear ports that bring them out from the wall. Then you should allow 6-8" or more between the speaker face and the screen, so 2.5 feet should be enough in most cases. But as you've seen, it's easy to find reasons for a little more space.


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post #23 of 42 Old 08-21-2013, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTotalPackage View Post

does a sub behind an AT screen not cause it to vibrate?

This was a worry of mine..................I used 5/4 finger jointed SPF in 16 foot lengths to attach the bottom fabric which is hidden by the bottom of the screen. It is screwed at each end only..............talk about a possible guitar string. Yesterday, an S2 was placed with in 4-5 inches of that board with sub driver intersecting path by maybe 1/4-1/2 inch. Finally let my system loose to see if I would have to re-frame the lower part of screen wall...............no problem. Have been worried for some time........wondering if I'd have to re-frame what essentially is just backing for fabric attachment.......ie. no structural purpose.

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Originally Posted by jedimastergrant View Post

I think if the screen was not fastened well it would vibrate.

Most builds fill the stage with sand so the stage is very solid and the false wall is less likely to start shaking.

What I have seen shake in other theaters with very powerful subs is the projector itself. I would be more concerned with the projector.

Four cabinet screws total, two attached at each end on a 16 foot long 5/4" X 4" board is not what I call fastening well..............but it worked! biggrin.gif

As mentioned.............I think the key is dampening stage with sand.

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Originally Posted by Fuelrush View Post

Are we saying 30"-36" is a necessity for your mains and center or is it because of big subs? Or are they generally about the same depth requirements for both.

All I can say is what I wish for.................................

Trying to place a 200+ pound sub in a small enclosure is not fun..........................add to the fact placing the said 200+ pound sub up-side-down and having to rotate is even less fun. Considering I have less than 4 inches in front of sub to fore mention cross post for fabric and even less for the fins to cool sub amp................yeah, 36 inches would be WONDERFUL!!

That said......................with 36 inches, I would be a proud owner of 2 Orbital Shifters too! 36" will do............biggrin.gif

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post #24 of 42 Old 08-21-2013, 09:50 AM
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I only have 18" behind the screen, which tapers out to 24" at the sides where my cabinets are. 18" is NOT enough. I shoehorned in DIY subs in that space in shallow cabinets but it was much more difficult than it needed to be, and is very limiting on sub/main placement. So I'd say 24-30" would give you much more options. In fact, I've even considered going to IB, then I can better utilize height variation in the front subs to help smooth out room modes.

Regarding the movement of the screen, no worries there. As long as your sub cabinets aren't attached to the screen wall, you shouldn't see any vibration in the screen. In most cases (mine included), the subs are below the screen and neither the woofer itself or the ports are firing directly into the screen. The only movement I see (as noted by another poster), is picture movement due to vibration of the projector. That's a whole other conversation. smile.gif

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post #25 of 42 Old 08-21-2013, 12:08 PM
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I have seen several builds that have the subs behind the false wall pointing towards the centerline of the room vs pointing into the room. Does this compromise any sound quality or ability to smooth out the bass response?

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post #26 of 42 Old 08-21-2013, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avtexan View Post

I have seen several builds that have the subs behind the false wall pointing towards the centerline of the room vs pointing into the room. Does this compromise any sound quality or ability to smooth out the bass response?

Not at all.................think of it as dropping a rock in a pond..................signal path goes in all directions, hence omnidirectional. The problems develop when immovable objects come in contact with wave. You either have construction (amplitude increases) or destruction.........there lies the issues.

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post #27 of 42 Old 08-21-2013, 01:24 PM
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I have seen several builds that have the subs behind the false wall pointing towards the centerline of the room vs pointing into the room. Does this compromise any sound quality or ability to smooth out the bass response?

I don't know all of the details regarding this subject. But, here are a few considerations. If the sub has a port then you do not want the port facing the screen because the air movement could cause the fabric to wiggle. It is also a general rule of thumb that you place the subwoofer port away from the wall at least double the diameter of the port itself. So a 3'' port would be placed 6'' from the wall. I am not sure of the validity of this claim. But, I do know that you do not want ports to be too close to a wall.

Placement of the sub will have an effect on frequency response seen in the room. A horn loaded sub like the Orbit Shifter can have it's low end response greatly extended by varying it's distance from the boundary and coupling it properly to the room. But, all subs frequency response will be affected to some degree by their placement in the room and proximity to boundaries. Sometimes even a small change can make a big difference. The only way to know this is by taking measurements and experimenting with different placements.

Something else worth pointing out is that low frequencies radiate in an omnidirectional fashion.

Doing a search for Welti/Devantier and/or Geddes approach to multi sub placement might offer some help with sub placement questions. It may or may not address your specific question. There are many opinions and possibly more than one way to get a good in room response.


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post #28 of 42 Old 08-21-2013, 01:27 PM
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Hey double I am glad to hear that your PJ does not shake. I should point out that most of the problems were in rooms that did not utilize sound isolation or sand filled stage. All but one anyway.

So glad you are up and running with the S2! I am going to your thread where I expect to read some thorough listening impressions!!!


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post #29 of 42 Old 08-21-2013, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerdic View Post

18" is NOT enough. I shoehorned in DIY subs in that space in shallow cabinets but it was much more difficult than it needed to be, and is very limiting on sub/main placement. So I'd say 24-30" would give you much more options. In fact, I've even considered going to IB, then I can better utilize height variation in the front subs to help smooth out room modes.

+1, I have 19" and it sucks. I could barely get the subs in there and it affected the placement of my mains as well. I made it work, but I would recommend at least 24" clear space.

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post #30 of 42 Old 08-21-2013, 02:04 PM
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Are you going to follow me on my quest to find minnie me Orbital Shifters? biggrin.gif

After thinking things over, the only solution I really had was in fact an S2 due to screen depth. My screen is 25" from drywall........subtract 2 X 4 base plate .....2 inches for Linacoustic RC on wall...........well, I'm looking at roughly 18-19" for sub. With the S2 being 16-1/4" in depth..............it fits perfectly!

Now to maximize > 30hz output! DIY area has been most helpful.............seems ported Pro 5100's are the ticket. cool.gif

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