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post #1 of 47 Old 08-31-2013, 01:33 PM - Thread Starter
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My basement remodel is now framed. I was going to have one room for pool table, bar and HT. I have reworked the plans to convert a extra room into a dedicated home theater. The Room is currently 16.3 ft x 10.85 ft. There is a rear side double door entrance. All walls are framed, The width of the room is fixed at 10.85 ft. I plan to move the screen wall forward increasing the length of the room, not sure how long the room should be.

Seating - I am currently planning for 2 rows of seating, back would be a raised curved row of 3, front row would be curved or straight row of 2.

Screen - Im thinking min 120 " screen unless I can go bigger. 140" would really be the mathimatical limit, resulting in screen wall to wall. (140" screen is 122" wide plus 4 inch boarder per side, room is just over 130" wide).

Screen wall - The wall that will become the screen wall, currently has two rough openings, one door for entry into a storage room and another for a double door closet. I can move this wall back to the desired distance in fill in the rough openings with studs.

AT screen - The room would then need to be long enough for stage and false wall, which i need help calculating. At the moment this seems to be my most attractive option. Given that my narrow room does not allow my R and L speakers to be out wide. Should I keep the speakers inside a wider screen or place the speakers outside a smaller screen. Not sure how close I can put my speakers to the side walls (I think i remember 2 ft, which could be hard to accomplish without a very narrow sound field)

or

Floor standing speakers - I would be limited to 120" screen to allow room for standing floor speakers. But I could bring the smaller screen closer to the seating. (not only would the screen be smaller but non AT). This would help me keep the room shorter and use up less of the storage room behind. It would also help to make the sound field wider, since the speakers will be closer, but the same maximal width that the room will allow.


Other details - Back and right walls border foundation, all walls are framed 2x4 and will be finished with drywall, floor is cement, ceiling will have to be drop ceiling at a height of 8.25 - 8.5 feet.

Next thing on my to do list is to reframe front wall of the theater. i need to figure out the length of the room and whether to plan for a AT screen and false wall or just floor standing speakers.

At this point in time I really need help on the basic plan of this layout. Anything that I must consider when framing out the front wall.
1. Is there a certain length of room to avoid based on the fixed width so i dont create sound wave issues.
2. How close can the screen come to the side walls, how close can the speakers be to the side walls.
3. Are my screen to eye ratios ok for the size screen I am hoping to put in.
4. How much room do i need to allow between rows of seating (any rules of thumb out there)
5. Do I need space behind the back seats(other than enough to allow the seats to recline), if not what about speaker placement, should the rears be on the side or above. If on the side, they will be very close to you, is this ok?
6. I know it is not ideal to have the area at the double door bow out the way it does, but this is really what allows me to make this space a theater. I am just starting to read up on room acoustics and I have a whole lot to learn. Is this something that I will be able to overcome.
7. Does my floor plan limit me to a 5.1 surround as I am planning or should I think bigger?
8. Any opinions on screen size, screen to eyes, AT vs floor standing.

Thanks in advance for any help you guys can give me, these are some of the things that I am trying to figure out, but obviously any advice will be very appreciated.

- Jay
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post #2 of 47 Old 08-31-2013, 06:50 PM - Thread Starter
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I wanted to get some pictures up here for you guys to take a look at.

Here is the basement as it is framed now

8-31-13grlayout.pdf 456k .pdf file

Thanks

Jay
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post #3 of 47 Old 08-31-2013, 08:12 PM - Thread Starter
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This is the most current plan, room dimensions 21.8 ft x 10.85 ft, showing two rows of seating, I really cant make the room any longer than this, 130 " screen, 10 ft to center of first row seat, 16.8 ft to center of second row seating(not sure where eyes fall in relation to seat). The riser, seating and stage design is certainly not final. Seating suggestions would be great!

Please let me know what you think of the plan

HT8-31-13.pdf 402k .pdf file

Thanks to anyone who was willing to read all of that, I need all the help i can get.
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post #4 of 47 Old 09-02-2013, 09:43 PM - Thread Starter
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I drew up two plans

1. 130 " AT screen - Speakers get a little farther off the walls, back 14.6 inches front 16.07 inches due to the tilt(if this tilt is appropriate), almost a 50 deg viewing angle, 121.56 inches first row eyes to screen(interested to take some votes on that),
9-2-13 AT.pdf 430k .pdf file

130 " AT screen drawing with dimensions
9-2-13 AT DIMENSIONS.pdf 559k .pdf file

2. 100 " NON-AT screen - Speakers a little tight on the walls, back 5.66 inches front 8.56 inches due to the tilt (ever so slightly different from image bellow), 45 deg viewing angle, 105.12 inches first row eyes to screen. Although the drawing shows a tower, the center, would need to be horizontal placed beneath the screen and behind acoustically transparent fabric as will the L and R. The screen would be 6.68 inches deeper than the fabric covered L and R. Figured I still needed a screen wall so I can treat the entire front wall. Not really sure of the design yet.
9-2-13NON-AT.pdf 426k .pdf file

100 " NON - AT screen with dimensions
9-2-13 NON-AT DIMENSIONS.pdf 485k .pdf file

And finally I'll attach a spread sheet that I made comparing all of these options, helping me decide on the above, just in case anyone could possibly ever make use of it(although i seriously doubt it)
screenspeaker.xls 69k .xls file

I would love to hear some thoughts on the above plans or something different, I think these are as large as I can make the screens in either situation and may need to go smaller. A smaller screen for first option and I'll shrink the sound field, smaller screen for second option and I shrink the viewing angle.

I also still need help figuring out how much space I need behind the back row(and speaker placement), how much space is needed between row(I would assume i need more than the dimension of the seat), and how to estimate where the eyes will be in relation to seat(I used 10 inches from back of reclined chair in my plans)

Thanks again, help me get this figured out so I can frame out my front wall and get this project moving!

-Jay
Attached Files
File Type: pdf 9-2-13 AT.pdf (430.1 KB, 24 views)
File Type: pdf 9-2-13 AT DIMENSIONS.pdf (559.2 KB, 13 views)
File Type: pdf 9-2-13NON-AT.pdf (425.5 KB, 7 views)
File Type: pdf 9-2-13 NON-AT DIMENSIONS.pdf (485.3 KB, 6 views)
File Type: xls screenspeaker.xls (69.0 KB, 9 views)
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post #5 of 47 Old 09-03-2013, 10:11 AM
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Had you considered placing a single door into the theater right at the bottom of the stairs, adjacent to the 1st row of seats? This would allow the left wall of the theater to go straight back to the back wall without jogging around your riser. It would give you a symmetrical room and allow the riser to run the full width of the room. Aesthetically, I think that would look better and it may even help you acoustically. It would certainly make placing your side surrounds a little easier.

I haven't studied your viewing angles closely, but my gut reaction is to go with the larger AT screen with all speakers behind. I don't think you have the room width to set your left and right speakers outside the screen and still have a screen large enough to be enjoyed from both rows.

Since your room is fairly narrow, I don't think there is a real advantage to having a curved row of seats. Unless you already own them, you would be fine with a straight row.
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post #6 of 47 Old 09-03-2013, 12:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Spaceman,

I have thought about making the wall straight and/or changing to a single door. For some reason that particular door placement didnt coe to mind. Most of my friends felt I should have kept that wall straight all along. I liked the angle and the double doors for the original design (plus there is a few complicating factors). I do however like your idea and in addition to the PRO's you listed I can already think of a few more, of course there are some CON's as well. It really wouldnt be much work to change at this point. I will post a drawing as well as a list of pros and cons later tonight and go from there.

I am also thinking that the largest AT screen I can comfortably view would be the best choice. If I go AT then the screen width, not the room width would limit the sound field. So I would be in the same boat as anyone that has placed their LCR's behind the AT screen.

Thanks for the idea
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post #7 of 47 Old 09-03-2013, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaceman View Post

Since your room is fairly narrow, I don't think there is a real advantage to having a curved row of seats. Unless you already own them, you would be fine with a straight row.

I dont own the chairs yet, I just liked the look of the curve and thought that I would enjoy being pointed directly at the screen. I was even considering curving the row of two for the same reason. I will be able to narrow this down through sketching up both options with a more finalized riser plan.

But first I really need help calculating how deep my back riser needs to be? How much room I need between rows? And about how far from the back of the chairs listed dimensions the eyes will fall?
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post #8 of 47 Old 09-03-2013, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by jasonsmithpharmd View Post

But first I really need help calculating how deep my back riser needs to be?
With reclining seats, 6'-6" is usually mentioned as the minimum for riser depth (after accounting for any rear wall acoustic treatments). I built an 8' deep riser and lost 5" to rear wall treatments, so I wound up with 7'-7" of useable space. The front of the back row is 42" from the front of the riser, leaving the back of the seat base approx. 22" from the rear wall. In an upright position, this puts the back of headrest 11" away from the rear wall. With both rows fully reclined, I end up with 7" between the 2nd row headrest and rear wall and about 3" between my feet and the front row headrests. Keep in mind, we don't typically watch movies with the seats fully reclined and I'm rather tall, so my feet hang off the foot rests by 4-5". This is just a worse case-scenario. With that being said, it would have been extremely tight if I only left myself 6'-6".
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How much room do I need between rows?
This will depend how close you place your seats to the back wall. The front of my 2nd row is 42" back from the front edge of the riser. Here is what it looks like when both rows are fully reclined, with the front row being pulled 3-4" away from the riser.


This placement leaves me with 11" behind the headrest when upright.



And 7" behind the headrest when fully reclined

Quote:
And about how far from the back of the chairs listed dimensions will the eyes fall?
My eyes are aligned with the back of the seat base when the seat is in an upright position. This might vary slightly depending on the type of chair but is probably safe for planning purposes.
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post #9 of 47 Old 09-03-2013, 04:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Spaceman,

First off thanks for your initial idea and taking the time to get me those numbers. I reworked the plans and it is looking better. Cant thank you enough.

General basement plan
9-3-13BMFloorplan.pdf 405k .pdf file

HT plan
9-3-13HTFloorplan.pdf 394k .pdf file

HT Dimensions
9-3-13HTDimensions.pdf 485k .pdf file

I think that is the design you were referring to. I did make the riser 8 feet. I also updated the chair dimensions to a larger seat (Palliser 41401 Channel). I did the best I could with the dimensions as provided by Palliser. The overall chair dimensions were correct, not enough details for to know specific dimensions of all parts of the chair in upright/recline position. But im am confident I have atleast the enough space accounted for in the drawings.

PRO's of making the room rectancular
1. Symetry gained both asthetically (solves a lot of soffit/crown molding/drop ceiling complications) and acoustically.
2. Easier access to riser, could have standing room on riser, better access to seating in general.
3. Gained spot for AV gear in close proximity to projector (If this spot doesnt work my only other option would be to recess into the wall or put on the otherside of the basement in the storage area), Is this AV closet another acoustic complication?

CON's
1. Had to account for 2" bump out in main room, which will be covered with a 45 deg corner pillar (I was able to place a equipment closet to produce the same effect, I also need to be able to get to a plumbing cleanout above the equipment closet, this can be done with a access panel which will now be hidden) It also gives me a seating area for two pool chairs and a table that i otherwise couldnt have with the old plan. Con turned to Pro
2. Will not be as open to the main room, if people are in and out watching a game, but the seating is more accessable.

Still Debating on the following
1. 5.1 vs 7.1 (what are my surround placement options, I can recess into the wall cavities if needed, only if no better option)
2. Can I handle a 50 deg viewing angle from first row eyes (I will check this out in proportion to my TV)
3. Should I angle any of the seating, with the larger chairs the back row will be tight, probably too tight, but the front row may work.(I have no experience with this, I know that the room is narrow but there is just something I like about being pointed straight at the screen)
4. Will the location/dimensions work for the av rack?
5. Speakers distance in relation to screen border and AT screen itself (I could always move them back and In if there is a issue, at the expense of a wider soundfield of course).

I think I am sold on the new plan, anything else to consider before I reframe the walls?

Thanks again spaceman for the advice, any other ideas you have please chime on in, your theater looks great, I wanted to get this post up, but now ill take some time to check out your place.

Any other thoughts out there are welcome!

-Jay
Attached Files
File Type: pdf 9-3-13BMFloorplan.pdf (405.0 KB, 17 views)
File Type: pdf 9-3-13HTFloorplan.pdf (394.4 KB, 14 views)
File Type: pdf 9-3-13HTDimensions.pdf (485.1 KB, 16 views)
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post #10 of 47 Old 09-03-2013, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonsmithpharmd View Post

I think that is the design you were referring to. I did make the riser 8 feet. I also updated the chair dimensions to a larger seat (Palliser 41401 Channel). I did the best I could with the dimensions as provided by Palliser. The overall chair dimensions were correct, not enough details for to know specific dimensions of all parts of the chair in upright/recline position. But im am confident I have atleast the enough space accounted for in the drawings.
You could get by with less than 8' if you aren't doing acoustic treatments on the back wall and if you find your front row is getting a little too close to the screen. Appears that you currently have about 10' to the screen, so I think you are ok. How much room are you leaving behind your false wall and how do you plan to access the mechanical room? If that's the only door, you might need to look at flipping the orientation of the theater 180 degrees so you can still have a door in the back of the theater to access that area. You would still need to provide access to the electrical panel that is currently in the back of the room, but that might be easier to deal with than a door behind your screen wall. Flipping the room might give you a more logical place to put the AV rack as well (recessed into the mechanical room rather than the game room).
Quote:
1. 5.1 vs 7.1 (what are my surround placement options, I can recess into the wall cavities if needed, only if no better option)
You definitely have room in the back of the room to hide surrounds in columns or even wall-mount, but things are a little tight on the side walls. Depending on placement, you might be able to fit some small surrounds in columns. I used Triad in-walls inside 4" deep columns. You might be able to fit something like that.
Quote:
2. Can I handle a 50 deg viewing angle from first row eyes (I will check this out in proportion to my TV)
My front row viewing angle is 54 degrees (9.5' from a 115" wide/125" dia. 2.35 screen. It's fine for me except for movies with very shaky camera work. It's really a personal preference, but you should be within the acceptable limits for most people. I'm assuming your proposed screen 2.35.1.
Quote:
3. Should I angle any of the seating, with the larger chairs the back row will be tight, probably too tight, but the front row may work.(I have no experience with this, I know that the room is narrow but there is just something I like about being pointed straight at the screen)
Again, personal preference, but remember that your screen is as wide as your row of 3 seats, so it's not going to feel like you are sitting outside the screen image.
Quote:
4. Will the location/dimensions work for the av rack?
Location looks fine but you'll want to double check a few other builds to confirm dimensions. If you intend to have the components face into the theater, it probably needs to be deeper but not as wide.
Quote:
5. Speakers distance in relation to screen border and AT screen itself (I could always move them back and In if there is a issue, at the expense of a wider soundfield of course).
The old school of thought was to maintain a min. of 6" between speaker and screen, but that seems to have been reduced to a couple of inches as screen technology has improved. As far as separation, your 40 degrees looks just short of the recommended 44-60 degree range. You can certainly play with this to see what sounds best, knowing that you'll need some separation from the wall. Looks like you have plenty of room behind your false wall for some corner bass traps.
Quote:
I think I am sold on the new plan, anything else to consider before I reframe the walls?
Try to get the entire plan on paper, including speaker locations, columns, acoustic treatments, rack opening/access, etc, to make sure all of those items fall into place before you start reframing. How are you addressing hvac requirements for the space? Are you doing any type of soundproofing?

One recommendation I would make is to simplify the steps up to your riser. The clipped corners look good on paper, but will quickly become a tripping hazard in a dark room, especially with a narrow tread. Consider running the entire front edge of the riser from one wall to the other and placing each step in front of that edge adjacent to each seat. I knew I wanted my steps deeper than ones found on a traditional flight of stairs so I bumped them up to 17" deep. Even at that depth, I've stumbled down them a few times. If I was starting over, they would be at least 20" deep, if not 24". Take a look at the ones Big and NYGiantFan just put in.
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post #11 of 47 Old 09-03-2013, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonsmithpharmd View Post

I think that is the design you were referring to. I did make the riser 8 feet. I also updated the chair dimensions to a larger seat (Palliser 41401 Channel). I did the best I could with the dimensions as provided by Palliser. The overall chair dimensions were correct, not enough details for to know specific dimensions of all parts of the chair in upright/recline position. But im am confident I have atleast the enough space accounted for in the drawings.
You could get by with less than 8' if you aren't doing acoustic treatments on the back wall and if you find your front row is getting a little too close to the screen. Appears you have about 10' to the screen though, so I think you are ok. How much room are you leaving behind your false wall and how do you plan to access the mechanical room? If that's the only door to your mechanical room, you might need to look at flipping the orientation of the theater 180 degrees so you can still have a door in the back of the theater to access that area. You would still need to provide access to the electrical panel that is currently in the back of the room, but that might be easier to deal with than a door.
Quote:
1. 5.1 vs 7.1 (what are my surround placement options, I can recess into the wall cavities if needed, only if no better option)
You definitely have room in the back of the room to hide surrounds in columns or even wall-mount, but things are a little tight on the side walls. Depending on placement, you might be able to fit some small surrounds in columns. I used Triad in-walls inside 4" deep columns. You might be able to fit something like that.
Quote:
2. Can I handle a 50 deg viewing angle from first row eyes (I will check this out in proportion to my TV)
My front row viewing angle is 54 degrees (9.5' from a 115" wide/125" dia. 2.35 screen). It's fine for me except for movies with very shaky camera work. It's really a personal preference, but you should be within the acceptable limits for most people. Is your screen 2.35.1?
Quote:
3. Should I angle any of the seating, with the larger chairs the back row will be tight, probably too tight, but the front row may work.(I have no experience with this, I know that the room is narrow but there is just something I like about being pointed straight at the screen)
Again, personal preference, but remember that your screen is as wide as your row of 3 seats, so it's not going to feel like you are sitting outside the screen image.
Quote:
4. Will the location/dimensions work for the av rack?
Location looks fine but you'll want to double check a few other builds to confirm dimensions. If you intend to have the components face into the theater, it's probably too wide and not deep enough.
Quote:
5. Speakers distance in relation to screen border and AT screen itself (I could always move them back and In if there is a issue, at the expense of a wider soundfield of course).
The old school of thought was to maintain a min. of 6" between speaker and screen, but that seems to have been reduced to a couple of inches as screen technology has improved. As far as separation, your 40 degrees looks just short of the recommended 44-60 degree range. You can certainly play with this to see what sounds best, knowing that you'll need some separation from the wall. Looks like you have plenty of room behind your false wall for some corner bass traps.
Quote:
I think I am sold on the new plan, anything else to consider before I reframe the walls?
Try to get the entire plan on paper, including speaker locations, columns, acoustic treatments, rack opening/access, etc, to make sure all of those items fall into place before you start reframing. How are you addressing hvac requirements for the space? Are you doing any type of soundproofing?

One recommendation I would make is to simplify the steps up to your riser. The clipped corners look good on paper, but will quickly become a tripping hazard in a dark room. Consider running the entire front edge of the riser from one wall to the other and placing each step in front of that edge adjacent to each seat. I knew I wanted my steps deeper than ones found on a traditional flight of stairs so I bumped them up to 17" deep. Even at that depth, I've stumbled down them a few times. If I was starting over, they would be at least 20" deep, maybe 24". Take a look at the ones Big and NYGiantFan just put in.
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post #12 of 47 Old 09-03-2013, 09:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaceman View Post

You could get by with less than 8' if you aren't doing acoustic treatments on the back wall and if you find your front row is getting a little too close to the screen.


I still have a lot to learn about acoustic treatments, I was planning on doing all of the basic must haves, wall to wall absorbtion on front wall, treat early reflection points off side walls, base traps in front corners, maybe back corners and my thinking for keeping the chairs futher off the back wall was mostly to avoid the localized standing base waves, as well as panels on the back wall (at a minimum I will have a electrical panel and a newly installed sub panel to cover, so to make things symetrical 2-3 panels back there, I didnt think these would be more than 1-2 inches)
Quote:
How much room are you leaving behind your false wall?

28 inches screen to drywall on front wall, not sure of my framing methods yet for the screen wall
Quote:
How do you plan to access the mechanical room?

There is a entrance to the storage room by the back bedroom and bathroom, that will be open to the mechanical room with a entrance way bigger than any door I could put in the theater.
Quote:
You definitely have room in the back of the room to hide surrounds in columns or even wall-mount, but things are a little tight on the side walls. Depending on placement, you might be able to fit some small surrounds in columns. I used Triad in-walls inside 4" deep columns. You might be able to fit something like that.

I was trying to visualize some side columns, just hard for me to plan surround for more than one row of seats, but I did see what you did and that seemed like a good option. I will just need to see what kind of room I am working with.
Quote:
My front row viewing angle is 54 degrees (9.5' from a 115" wide/125" dia. 2.35 screen). It's fine for me except for movies with very shaky camera work. It's really a personal preference, but you should be within the acceptable limits for most people. Is your screen 2.35.1?

Good to hear that, I was planning a 16:9, but have been considering going to 2.35:1 to get the widest screen I will enjoy for my viewing distance, I thought that would be the only way I would tolerate the larger image, verdict is still out on that, this will be based on content and need for masking options.
Quote:
Location looks fine but you'll want to double check a few other builds to confirm dimensions. If you intend to have the components face into the theater, it's probably too wide and not deep enough.

I was thinking the same thing, although if i plan to have the components sit flush or close to flush with the finished wall, that gives me a extra 4 inches depth for a total of 24 inches, I made it that wide so i can hopefully mount wire terminations on the side wall and roll out the rack, I certainly need to do a lot more homework on the part of the build.
Quote:
The old school of thought was to maintain a min. of 6" between speaker and screen, but that seems to have been reduced to a couple of inches as screen technology has improved. As far as separation, your 40 degrees looks just short of the recommended 44-60 degree range. You can certainly play with this to see what sounds best, knowing that you'll need some separation from the wall. Looks like you have plenty of room behind your false wall for some corner bass traps.

Thanks for the info
Quote:
Try to get the entire plan on paper, including speaker locations, columns, acoustic treatments, rack opening/access, etc, to make sure all of those items fall into place before you start reframing.

Only one problem with the above, I just took down the walls! Can you tell I'm eager. Each wall was only secured with a couple of tapcons in the cement and shims and screws into the joist, no big deal.

I am going to put up the new walls tomorrow, I have a pile of lumber that will warp in no time if I dont get through it. I know where the side wall will be for sure, just dont know about the doors so I will just skip them and toenail them in when im sure. I also know where the front wall will be give or take 1/2 to 1 foot. So ill put up those nailers, fill in the old rough openings with studs and tac the wall into place. I just want to get the framing out of the way because I still need to get rough electrical and plumbing done for the entire basement, I figure I have until then to finalize the framing. Then I have a lot more planning to do before putting up drywall.
Quote:
How are you addressing hvac requirements for the space?

This is a area I still need to research, my original plan would have been to tap into the 1st floor zone of my house, now im not sure for the HT, also need to look into the ductless heater/ac units wall mounted.
Quote:
Are you doing any type of soundproofing?

Was going to Insulate the entire room not sure of exact material yet, get a solid core door, the ceiling will be drop (likely armstrong easy elegance deep coffer) I was planning on packing insulation on top of that, I put up 3/4 inch osb fireblock around the paremeter of the room as fireblock, the top plates screw into this, not sure if i could use any wisper clip type product to decouple the walls from ceiling, prob not.

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One recommendation I would make is to simplify the steps up to your riser.

You are breaking my heart here, but I understand what you are saying, thanks for the heads up, I will try to plan a alternative. The main complicating factor is that I have just enough room to open a 28 inch door to the riser step. If I enlarge the step I will need to decrease riser depth (we just stated may be possible), resess stair into riser deeper(tripping hazard), or open door toward screen or into pool room which may be less than ideal. I will see what I can come up with.

Once again thanks for all the help

- Jay
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post #13 of 47 Old 09-04-2013, 03:58 PM - Thread Starter
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I reframed the walls today, I skipped the equipment closet, I did frame the door into the theater. I also reframed the front wall and moved it into place. I decided to not secure it until I finalize the plan. I could probably shorten the room about 1/2 a foot, or I could just keep this as extra space behind the screen.

HT plan
9-4-13HT.pdf 429k .pdf file

HT plan with dimensions
9-4-13HTdimensions.pdf 513k .pdf file

Increasing the step depth helped quite a few things, they are 24 inches wide now on the skinny side. I worked out a plan for 7.1, the speaker columns are 6" x 18", I think I could make them deeper if needed.

The acoustical as panels shown are beyond preliminary, I have some learning to do in the mean time. I think I am going to keep the room all drywall with wainscoting and chair rail, painted two dark tones.

I am starting to get a visual for what this room could look like, which is really exciting.

-Jay
Attached Files
File Type: pdf 9-4-13HT.pdf (429.5 KB, 4 views)
File Type: pdf 9-4-13HTdimensions.pdf (512.9 KB, 9 views)
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Thoughts on this plan?

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post #15 of 47 Old 09-04-2013, 04:57 PM
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Hey Jason. I just came across this thread tonight - sub'd! You don't mess around in "gettin' to the gettin' " smile.gif

Spaceman has given you a lot of great advice to really improve the design. I guess my first question would be how many people will typically be in the room? Just you or just you and a significant other? The reason I ask is it seems the size of this room is set up for a single row of comfy seating and not two. This would also eliminate your riser.

In the current design iteration there is not a single "best seat in the house". The rear row of seating has the sides WAY forward of the seating position and the rears far too close (should be 4-5 feet away, minimum). The front row of seating has properly positioned sides and rears that are too far away. By going with just one row of seating you can optimize for this listening position and viewing distance. So this means scooting the rear row forward by 3-4 feet (approx.) and readjusting the side to 90 degrees. If 99% of the time you have 3 or less people in the theater, this works out perfectly and will give you a significantly better experience. As a concession to seating capacity you could install a 12" or 16" deep back bar and load it up with some comfy bar stools.

Now, for the video....I know the tendency is to get the biggest screen possible, but given ideal viewing angles you should cap the screen at 120" width or less based on the width of your room and seating distance for a 2.35:1 screen. I am a big fan of acoustically transparent screens, but this may be one of those instances where it would be better to get a non-AT screen and mount it on the wall to get the additional viewing distance. Yes, this would flush your speakers to the side and add a bit more toe-in, but the extra 28" of viewing distance is probably worth it. The speakers could still be hidden on the sides with some artfully crafted speaker grill cloth "columns" or panels....just anything to keep the glare from reflecting off the side of the speakers and being distracting.

I'd like to hear your feedback on the above.
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post #16 of 47 Old 09-04-2013, 06:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the thoughts TMcG,

Yea I really want to get this thing moving.

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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post


I guess my first question would be how many people will typically be in the room?

This is a hard question to answer, for now id say 25% of the time prob just me, 50% me and my wife to be, and the other 25% 4 or more.

Not to far down the road I hope to be starting a family and thats one of the big reasons I want to put this theater in.

Also, not sure if you checked out the rest of the plan, but I will also have a fairly large pool/bar room, were ill be having a weekly poker game and we plan to do some regular entertaining. I actually want to select poker chairs that will be comfortable enough to move on the steps to the riser and get up to 7 viewers

I more than understand were you are coming from, but I really feel five is the minimum number of seats for me to justify the theater. I think the plan has come a long way and I am really excited for the current setup.

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The rear row of seating has the sides WAY forward of the seating position.

Yea it does seem so, but I couldnt fit them next to the third row. I could always go down to 5.1 to solve the problem, id rather do that and save the second row, or have the imaging less than optimal in the second row than lose the row all together.

Or better yet I can proceed as planned and if it is a issue I could always go down to 5.1 with a full house and enjoy 7.1 75 % of the time.

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The rears far too close (should be 4-5 feet away, minimum), and two far away from the first row
Wasnt sure of the space i needed here, spaceman and many others have a similar configuration, and seem to enjoy it. Not really sure on this one, If they are too close to the rear and too far from the front seats, than how does it ever work out to have rears and two rows of seats?

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By going with just one row of seating you can optimize

I do understand that it would make for a more ideal viewing experience for a couple people. But for me its really more about having a great area to share with friends and family than having then best experience for the two of us. Goes back to the above goals.
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As a concession to seating capacity you could install a 12" or 16" deep back bar and load it up with some comfy bar stools.

Its a thought, I think that I would be more prone to just going with a back row of non recliners or just not allow space for the seats to recline and keep the riser the same depth, if I really need more space behind my seats, the verdict is still out on that one. It would take up more room than your suggestion, but I feel that I should at least have room for that.

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Now, for the video....I know the tendency is to get the biggest screen possible, but given ideal viewing angles you should cap the screen at 120" width or less based on the width of your room and seating distance for a 2.35:1 screen.

The screen in the drawings is a 130" diagonal (not wide)16:9, at 113" wide. Current front row viewing angle 48.7 degrees, I was actually considering going to 50 degrees. I have spend some time watching my 65" panny from 5 feet to get a feel for what im in for, it was 2.35:1 material but I liked it. I want a large image and thats another benifit of having the second row, if im watching something shakey I could move to the back seats. What viewing angle would you recommend, or did you think I was putting in a 130" wide screen?

I am still on the fence for 2.35:1 vs 16:9, starting to lean toward 2.35:1 at the same 113" width for maximal speaker seperation.

Quote:
I am a big fan of acoustically transparent screens, but this may be one of those instances where it would be better to get a non-AT screen

Again not sure if there was confusion of the screen size and viewing angles or not.

I considered both options the smaller non-AT vs the LARGER AT and posted a drawing of each previously. I decided on the Large AT screen because I was able and still am able to make the room longer, the speakers will be placed within the screen, so the screen size, not the room width limits my sound field, I felt this gave me the widest viewing angle and sound field that I could have in this room.

Thanks again feedback, Not that I am not opent to new ideas but the room has come a long way and I am feeling good about its overall design. I really just want to make the most of what I have here, I understand and am ok with everything not being ideal, I just dont want any regrets due to the room not being enjoyable.

You do bring up a few good points that I will look into further before finalizing the front wall.

1. Am I ok with 22" back wall to back of second row seats? Im still think it should be ok, but I can push them forward a little if needed.
2. Is rear speaker placement ok, is the second row too close to theses speakers? Would it help to raise the rears for more separation? Again if absolutely needed I can push the seating forward.
3. Do the side speakers seem ok as planned? How bad will this sound for the second row? I have never been in a room with 7.1 so I really have no idea.
4. Very important, any thoughts on the current viewing angles, I think im up to it, but if I hear too many words of caution I will reconsider.
5. Anyone else think the second row is a big mistake?

Thanks again,

-Jay
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post #17 of 47 Old 09-05-2013, 12:23 AM
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Hey Jay. I wouldn't characterize what you are doing as a big mistake, but a series of compromises you are making to get what you really want. HERE is one post that shows the recommended max and min viewing angles for all known standards. THIS link has pictures and links to speaker placement angles.

Think of it like this....having your ceiling painted white is not recommended for a front projection system because it can seriously degrade your picture quality (contrast) and cause distractions to the eye in a darkened room. But hey, if you like white paint, gold flake or plate mirrors on the ceiling for that matter then go for it, it's your room....but be aware that it comes with compromises to both sound and picture quality. This is a unique design in the sense that there is no real "money seat" for the reasons stated before, meaning there's not one seat that is optimized for ideal speaker and viewing angles. Your goals are room capacity and one of the biggest screens that you could possibly fit into the space, so all professional recommendations are thrown out in pursuit of these goals.

To take question number one above - if it's OK to have the rear seats 22" from the back wall to the back of the seats....... the answer would be "no" according to recommended standards on speaker angles, especially for the outside seats, but you are making the decision for maximum seating capacity. Will you hear each of the rear speakers? Of course. Is it optimal? No.
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post #18 of 47 Old 09-05-2013, 10:02 AM
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In regards to screen size, I found that using the guidelines was a good place to start to get me in the ballpark, but because it really boils down to personal preference, it was extremely helpful for me to go and visit another home theater to see what I was comfortable with. If that's not possible, you can always project an image on a sheet or a wall to see what feels right to you. If your front row is at 10' and you are considering something around 115" wide, my guess is you will be fine with a 2.35:1 screen but overwhelmed by a 16:9 screen of the same width due to the additional height.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaceman View Post

If your front row is at 10' and you are considering something around 115" wide, my guess is you will be fine with a 2.35:1 screen but overwhelmed by a 16:9 screen.

still debating on aspect ratio. seems like a lot of hd cable is 16:9. can most pjs convert aspect? would I then view 16:9 on a 2.35:1? would I need to mask the screen? I dont have a pj so I cant mock it up now, but I will before building screen wall, choosing size or aspect.

if I build the front wall as planned I think I will have a little wiggle room with screen size
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What Spaceman was saying is if you had a 115" wide 2.35:1 screen in a constant image height setup, the size of both aspect ratios would be about right with an image height of 49". However, if you kept the same 115" width in a 16:9 format screen, that means your screen your screen height jumps to 65" and that would be seriously huge and probably overwhelming.

If you go with the 2.35 aspect screen and get a projector with zoom, such as the PT--AE8000, then it can natively handle 16:9 and then zoom the anamorphic stuff to fill the whole 2.35 screen. Most folks either stretch the HD image to fill the screen which has the same distortion you probably saw when the whole world was converting from 4:3 to 16:9 15 years ago . . . or. . . they simply do without the side masking panels, although manual pop-in panels would be your cheapest option.
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post #21 of 47 Old 09-05-2013, 01:18 PM
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If you spend most of your time watching TV or gaming, 16:9 might be a better choice. If you watch a lot of movies, 2.35:1 would be the way to go. If it's 50/50, you need to ask yourself which is more worthy of the bigger screen-Star Trek Into Darkness or Seinfeld. wink.gif

I have a JVC projector and use the lens memory feature to go between aspect ratios. For 2.35:1 movies, I press a button and the projector automatically adjusts the picture to fill the 115" wide 2.35:1 screen (top to bottom, side to side with no black bars). For 16:9 content, I press another button and the projector adjusts the image to fill the height of the screen, but leaves black bars on the sides. This leaves me with an 87" wide 16:9 image (or 100" diagonally). Visually, I can barely see the bars and have no plans to incorporate masking.
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Alright, I took some time to think about it and I am ready to take a couple opinions, if they are still out there.

All of this is based my thinking that my rooms max screen width is 115 ", that gives just 7.13 inches screen to wall(not including the frame)

Option 1) Spaceman, I could more or less replicate your setup, Move my screen to eyes up to 9.5-10 ft, and go with the 115" wide 2.35:1. This would give me the widest possible sound field. But I would be viewing a AT screen from a closer distance. It would give me a extra foot behind the screen for 40" total, I could keep 28" behind the screen and make the storage room 12" larger or split the difference (34" behind the screen and increase the storage room 6 inches)

Option 2) I could keep the current room dimensions, screen to eyes 10.5-11 ft, and go with the 115" wide 16:9 screen. This increases the distance viewing the AT screen, but narrows the sound field and decreases the viewing angle of the 2.35:1 material compared to option #1

I am severely leaning toward #1, spaceman any regrets in your design, would you want a smaller or larger image, would you increase the distance to your screen if you could?


If I frame the room as planned I really only risk waisting 6-12 inches behind the screen and I can pick option 1 or 2 after I have a chance to mock up the screen.

If Take 6 inches off the room, I gain 6-12 inches in storage but I risk being too close for option 2.

Spaceman, I will wait for your responce on this one if you dont mind, since you have a first hand opinion.

TMcg, any thoughts?

Thanks again for your help.
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post #23 of 47 Old 09-05-2013, 08:16 PM - Thread Starter
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One more quick consideration. The room as planned is 130.25 inches wide x 256.56 inches long. Length is 1.96 times width, from what I understand that is almost a worst case senario for hard to eliminate standing base waves. Is this a real concern and a reason to chose option 1 above and shorten the room, or is this more theoretical.

-Jay
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post #24 of 47 Old 09-05-2013, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonsmithpharmd View Post

spaceman any regrets in your design, would you want a smaller or larger image, would you increase the distance to your screen if you could?

I'm perfectly happy with my screen size and viewing distances, based on a 2.35:1 aspect ratio. I wouldn't change either one. I would have liked to have a little more breathing room between the rear surrounds and my 2nd row, but that would have required a bigger room.

You might consider the following:
1. Without knowing exactly what you plan to place behind your false wall (and to allow some flexibility for future upgrades), I'd increase the 27" space behind your screen to 30".

2. To give yourself a little more separation between rear surrounds and the back row, I'd increase the 92" riser depth to 96" (1 full sheet of plywood). Slide both rows of seats and the steps closer to the screen by the same 4". If my math is correct, than this would put your 1st row eyeballs somewhere around 9'-9", based on the last measured plan you posted.

3. Is it possible to have the door swing out into the gameroom, away from the stairs? It wouldn't be able to swing all the way open without hitting the pool chair, but it might function better. In the current configuration, it looks like there is barely enough room to get out of the way of the swinging door, due to the location of the step. The alternative would be to reduce the depth of the step by 4'-6", so it aligns with the edge of the column. It might be fine the way it is. It just looks a little tight.
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post #25 of 47 Old 09-06-2013, 04:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Spaceman, I made the changes you suggested, thanks again for your input. 96 inch riser, 26 inches behind unreclined seats to wall, 116.5 - 123.5 inches screen to eyes, 30 inches behind screen. I couldnt change the door, if opened into the game room the main staircase would be closer than the 6 inch stair to the riser. I think I will just have to deal with this one, I also dont want to shorten the step because I can put a chair on the steps to seat seven at the moment.

Here is a mock up of the room.




I framed the room out according to plan.

Front wall


Back wall

Side walls

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post #26 of 47 Old 09-06-2013, 05:36 PM
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Looks good.

Have you calculated your riser height yet?

Is that an old doorway framed into the front wall? I thought I remember you saying there was another way into the storage area/mechanical room.

You'll need to start thinking about electrical soon. What are your lighting plans?
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post #27 of 47 Old 09-06-2013, 06:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaceman View Post

Looks good.

Have you calculated your riser height yet?

Thanks, I am really happy with the design

I have not calculated but I assumed 2x12 plus 2 layers of 3/4 " OSB, I am reading up on riser base traps. I am very happy with the plan, my only concern is length of room = 2x width. I really do not know if this is a huge mistake that should be avoided at all costs, Or something more academic that can be treated with front corner and riser base traps.
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Is that an old doorway framed into the front wall? I thought I remember you saying there was another way into the storage area/mechanical room.

That is the old door, there is other access via a 34" door, I am going to leave it framed and fill in the gap with studs 16" on center( i never cut out the bottom plate), I will also avoid running wires through the opening. My reasoning, if someone ever wants to convert the room back they can do so easily and if township inspecter gives me a hard time about the access I do have to the mechanical room, I can have the door, get the permits then stud out the door, sheet rock and convert to theater.

- Jay
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post #28 of 47 Old 09-13-2013, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
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I took some time to try and plan a few things out. First off, I dediced to finish the room shell first then go back to make theater specific changes. I also decided to keep the dedicated AV equipment in the theater closet.

I got a few quotes for HVAC work. My house is only two zone, one zone for each floor. I will be tapping into the 1st floor zone for my basement needs. I can only add a few more registers as the unit was sized for only the first floor zones(the builder did put two registers in the basement off that zone). The basement stays quite comfortable all year.

The HVAC guys feel i can get a 8" duct of the main line with damper, then split to two 6" ducts. venting down from the underside of the soffits on the right and left of the seating.

I have a few????

1. I see a lot of flex duct in this forum. Where should I start the flex duct, anywhere before the dd/gg envelope? HVAC guy did not like the idea of snaking the flex tube to decrease sound travel through the duct, is this the standard?



2. If I place a return from the room it would likely be in the front of the room. Any thoughts or special considerations here?

a. I could just have a return taking air from the unfinished storage/mechanical area, and place a open grate on the front right wall of the theater room (defeating some sound proofing)

b. I could duct a return to the front of the room (Should this be flex)

or

c. I could leave the room with no return (worried the room will be sealed up too tight for this)

Any feedback or links that could help me plan this out would be greatly appreciated!

- Jay
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post #29 of 47 Old 09-13-2013, 01:59 PM
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A few tips on how HVAC should ideally be addressed:
  • You want the supplies at the front and the return(s) at the rear. It's not ideal to have the conditioned air dumping right near the seating position. When positioning the supplies near the front, an angled bar diffuser that points the air flow away from the screen is recommended. You don't want the screen moving back and forth from the HVAC supply.
  • You want a return, without question. If you don't have a return, not only will the supplies be limited from effectively mixing the air, it will make your door extremely difficult to open with the positive pressure.
  • Flex duct is used for everywhere EXCEPT where it penetrates the soundproof shell of the room....to penetrate the shell, use a short piece of rigid and some putty pads to seal the gap.
  • Introducing waves in your flex line will limit some mid-range frequency extension, but do nothing for LFE, bass and upper bass frequencies. Depending on the run length of your supplies, waving the duct could have negligible impact on sound leaving the room, bill will disrupt the laminar flow of the air inside the ducting. Personally, I'd run it straight, provided you had sufficient run length.
  • Did your HVAC guy do a heat load calc. for your room based on 6 adults, all of your lighting and the projector's BTU output all while taking into account that this will be a highly sealed and insulated room? If he didn't, then he is only running HVAC to the room without any thought or consideration for what is needed.
  • Where do you live? How will you address cooling the theater when the rest of the home is in heat mode? Will the theater have it's own thermostat or remote temperature sensor? Are they providing you with a thermostat / control that can be accessed by a third party control system via IP, RS-232, etc.?
  • For an 8 inch supply (max 200 CFM), you ideally have an 8" return. You could go to a 10" flex for the return with a 14x14 return air, provided you damp it to equal the amount of supply coming into the room. The illuminati of this Forum recommend 250fpm (face pressure) or less at the supplies and the return(s)

Sounds like you have a way to go to get the right professional advice from your HVAC guy....
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post #30 of 47 Old 09-13-2013, 02:34 PM - Thread Starter
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First off thanks for the Advice TMcg,
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[*] You want the supplies at the front and the return(s) at the rear. It's not ideal to have the conditioned air dumping right near the seating position.

Good point, I just figured that since the room will most likely be inadequately heated/cooled I would get greater effect at the seating location. I will reconsider
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You want a return, without question

Good points, once again.
Quote:
Flex duct is used for everywhere EXCEPT where it penetrates the soundproof shell of the room....to penetrate the shell, use a short piece of rigid and some putty pads to seal the gap.

I have a question here, HVAC guy states I must go hard duct from main line through osb fireblocking which happens to be right outside HT room. Can I use hard pipe off the main line through fireblocking into rooms shell, then flex duct or main line - hard duct - flex pipe - short hard pipe - flex pipe. Seems like a lot of joints
Quote:
Personally, I'd run it straight, provided you had sufficient run length.

Thanks for the input, I will put a drawing up with length of runs after I revise my plan.
Quote:
Did your HVAC guy do a heat load calc. for your room based on 6 adults, all of your lighting and the projector's BTU output all while taking into account that this will be a highly sealed and insulated room? If he didn't, then he is only running HVAC to the room without any thought or consideration for what is needed.

He didnt do any calculations, but he did mention many of the above factors plus that "a hot pizza warms the room and people tend to be warm when they are drinking". My basement is the foot print of my whole house. He feels that I would need another entire unit to heat/cool it, but no real space for the air handler or extra ducts. He was really trying to make the most of a non ideal situation. He suggested the mitsubishi ductless system if I can afford it. quote for just HT room was over 2 grand.
Quote:
Where do you live? How will you address cooling the theater when the rest of the home is in heat mode? Will the theater have it's own thermostat or remote temperature sensor? Are they providing you with a thermostat / control that can be accessed by a third party control system via IP, RS-232, etc.?

I live in souther NJ, it will be on the zone for upstairs so I cannot have independent controll. One thought i had since I am wiring up with Insteon I could get a compatible thermostat, this would allow me to demand more or less air/heat from the basement, but obviously the upstairs would be getting more or less as well. He is only placing ducts off my first floor zone, which does not have a lot left to give.

My basement just seems to stay comfortable, was cool on the hundred degree days while I was framing, and fairly warm in the winter. Seems like heat will be a bigger problem than cooling. Im sure this will change once walls are up and insulated, warm bodies are in the chairs and equipment is running but I dont know how much.

Thanks for the air return info

I think he was giving me the correct advice, I was putting him in bad light by not having the 2 grand budget for the HT room and 8 grand for the entire basement.

I could always add the ductless zone for 2 grand to the HT room, but its bulky, I dont know how noisy and its hard to justify spending that kind of money when my basement temp is already quite comfortable with just the two supplies installed by the builder.

- Jay
jasonsmithpharmd is offline  
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