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post #1 of 71 Old 09-01-2013, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm going to have two row in my theater,but the way my theater is the first row is going to have a wide space than row 2. Check my link:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1444474/amb1s1-official-theater#post_22684671
So, row 1 will have left and right on the side, but the second row not. Will it be appropriate to have two set of left and right surround? So I will still have 7.1, but with four left and right surround.
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post #2 of 71 Old 09-01-2013, 01:03 PM
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If you just double up on the speakers, the delay for one set could be wrong for the seats they serve or both be wrong depending on how the receiver sets them up. I have seen some people use the pre outs from a processor go to two surround receivers, and double up on the speakers they have in the room, and they use each receivers calibration to set the speaker delays correctly for the set of speakers they're connected to.

So, as you only want to have tow extra side surrounds, another receiver would be overkill, so I was wondering if you could use the side surround pre outs from your receiver to go to another amp or amps that has the facility to add it's own delay. That will allow you to run another set of speakers with the correct delays for the seats they're next to.

You could just experiment with another pair of speakers in parallel (if your amp is happy with the lower value impedance) and see if it sounds ok, and then just run another amp from the pre outs to a stereo amp that will feed your extra set of speakers.

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post #3 of 71 Old 09-01-2013, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
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All my speakers are going to be on amps.
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post #4 of 71 Old 09-01-2013, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amb1s1 View Post

I'm going to have two row in my theater,but the way my theater is the first row is going to have a wide space than row 2. Check my link:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1444474/amb1s1-official-theater#post_22684671
So, row 1 will have left and right on the side, but the second row not. Will it be appropriate to have two set of left and right surround? So I will still have 7.1, but with four left and right surround.

That's what I did in my theater, although my side surrounds (x4) are the same distance from each row. The issue I see for your setup is that the second pair of speakers will be closer to the rear row than the first pair are to the front row. You may need to adjust the volume differently on the two pairs, which makes it a bit more work than just hooking both pairs to a 4-ohm-stable amp (like I did).

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post #5 of 71 Old 09-01-2013, 04:27 PM
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My theater designed by a professional required two rows of side surrounds..........BTW, I'm using 6 Triad Silver LCR's in total for surrounds.

Currently using RCA splitter from pre-out in Marantz 8801 to amp then to each surround. This is a temporary set up until I receive my minidsp 10 X 10 which has been ordered. I will be using DSP for subs and my two rows of side surrounds.

I was a little apprehensive due to never hearing such a set up ie. 2 rows of side monopole surrounds. Well........after calibration........I love the set up!

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post #6 of 71 Old 09-02-2013, 04:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 

I was a little apprehensive due to never hearing such a set up ie. 2 rows of side monopole surrounds. Well........after calibration........I love the set up!

Hi,

Are the delays for each pair of speakers different, or are they pretty much producing the same sound, but over four instead of two speakers? I'll be having two rows of seats eventually, and I figured I'd need two sets of side surrounds as well. I've been looking into how different people are doing it and how/if they get around the distance settings for audio delay so wondered how yours were set up.

Cheers

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post #7 of 71 Old 09-02-2013, 05:22 AM
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Time difference is best handled by making sure the one you should be getting the main direction from is closest in distance to the ear. Typically the one slightly in front of your row should be the leading one while the other speakers fill in slightly later. Putting the surrounds further back higher could be a way to accomplish this.

(I'm using three per side both in our tv-room and in the upcoming cinema build myself. )

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post #8 of 71 Old 09-02-2013, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post

Hi,

Are the delays for each pair of speakers different, or are they pretty much producing the same sound, but over four instead of two speakers? I'll be having two rows of seats eventually, and I figured I'd need two sets of side surrounds as well. I've been looking into how different people are doing it and how/if they get around the distance settings for audio delay so wondered how yours were set up.

Cheers

Gary

For now, there is no time delay with speakers.............just splitting signal and passing through individual channels in amp..........and to be honest, I don't really feel there is a need for changing time alignment. Roger Dressler will visit my room in the future...........will be interesting to see what his thoughts are and how to make corrective changes. For now, I have a minidsp on order and will use for any time alignment changes.

BTW, my Grandmum was born in Surrey...............and have cousins in Tiptree, Maldon, and Colchester. wink.gif
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post #9 of 71 Old 09-02-2013, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

For now, there is no time delay with speakers.............just splitting signal and passing through individual channels in amp..........and to be honest, I don't really feel there is a need for changing time alignment. Roger Dressler will visit my room in the future...........will be interesting to see what his thoughts are and how to make corrective changes. For now, I have a minidsp on order and will use for any time alignment changes.

BTW, my Grandmum was born in Surrey...............and have cousins in Tiptree, Maldon, and Colchester. wink.gif

Time delay may not be an issue if you're equidistant from the sides.

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post #10 of 71 Old 09-02-2013, 10:02 AM
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Time delay may not be an issue if you're equidistant from the sides.

I agree.........................and never really worried about it due to liking current results.
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post #11 of 71 Old 09-02-2013, 11:04 AM
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This comes up from time to time. Here's another thread where Dennis chimed in. From what I can tell, a side array (i.e. multiple rows of side surrounds) requires the signals being passed to the subsequent set of surrounds be decorrelated from the first. Those in the know are rather tight lipped about the best method to do this, but Toole's book recommends a time delay on the order of 10 ms. I've also read some papers on commercial cinema calibration where a similar spec is used to calibrate multiple rows of surrounds.

Further, there are some papers discussing the psychoacoustics associated with different methods of decorrelation (see the thread linked to above) that utilized FIR filtering to decorrelate the signals. The theory is by utilizing an all pass filter that randomizes the phase of the second signal with respect to the first the two signals can be decorrelated. The effect is to reduce the perceived comb filtering and increase the perceived size of the room. The latter is an attempt to replicate the complex nature of the phase of multiple signals interacting with objects in a large space.

Unfortunately, FIR filters are computationally expensive, and generally speaking require higher end hardware. Most of the less expensive DSPs only have the ability to implement IIR filters. Dennis generally specs high end DSPs capable of implementing FIR filters, but no word on whether or not they actually use them for this purpose or not.

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post #12 of 71 Old 09-02-2013, 11:53 AM
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10ms ? That's a spatial difference of 10 feet+. That's way too much.

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post #13 of 71 Old 09-02-2013, 11:58 AM
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So it could be as simple as using the pre outs to a splitter for each side and using 2 amps (or a stereo amp) per side instead of one. smile.gif

The time delay sounded like it was the right way to go, but I wonder if you only appreciate the improvement if you do a comparison test.

Not having tried it, if you use a receiver, can you use the pre outs and speaker outs at the same time? That would mean a single stereo amp would do the job.

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post #14 of 71 Old 09-02-2013, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post

10ms ? That's a spatial difference of 10 feet+. That's way too much.

First thing Roger Dressler said when he first visited my building thread was "decorrelation" between side surrounds......................how much was not stated.

To be honest, I'm an old man with failing ears......................for the life of me, my current settings sound great to me. Maybe the experts can chime in.......................
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post #15 of 71 Old 09-02-2013, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post

So it could be as simple as using the pre outs to a splitter for each side and using 2 amps (or a stereo amp) per side instead of one. smile.gif


Yup........
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post #16 of 71 Old 09-02-2013, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post

So it could be as simple as using the pre outs to a splitter for each side and using 2 amps (or a stereo amp) per side instead of one. smile.gif


Yup........

Brilliant!

I like simple smile.gif

Cheers

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post #17 of 71 Old 09-02-2013, 12:40 PM
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As I sit in my room looking at side surround array, I really wonder why there is a need to "deccorolate"?

The distance difference between any seating position in the first row to 1st row surrounds to second row surround is less than two feet.........and in the case of seats at edge less that one foot.

After taking measurements out of curiosity, is there a real need to time delay?

I can't tell you for sure how XT32 handled the pairs of side surrounds......one would think with two sets of pairs an increase of 3db's would be the issue.

I'll look into my processor settings and see what XT32 did with side surrounds.
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post #18 of 71 Old 09-02-2013, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

First thing Roger Dressler said when he first visited my building thread was "decorrelation" between side surrounds......................how much was not stated.

Well, I don't have his statue, but I would like to disagree on this. Perhaps with very direct radiating speakers he may be right, but I'm not into those. I think time delay worked out by placement / distance is enough and then Mr. Haas will fix the rest for you.

My own setup is amazing in the surround channels and all three on the sides get the same signal, but they aren't placed at equal height to make sure there's a longer distance to the rear ones, so the first wave front is from the frontmost one.

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post #19 of 71 Old 09-02-2013, 01:16 PM
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Well, I don't have his statue, but I would like to disagree on this. Perhaps with very direct radiating speakers he may be right, but I'm not into those. I think time delay worked out by placement / distance is enough and then Mr. Haas will fix the rest for you.

My own setup is amazing in the surround channels and all three on the sides get the same signal, but they aren't placed at equal height to make sure there's a longer distance to the rear ones, so the first wave front is from the frontmost one.

If you are comparing dipole surrounds, that is a different ball game.smile.gif
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post #20 of 71 Old 09-02-2013, 01:26 PM
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I think you'll find that the anomaly the delay or filter (or combination) is trying to remedy, as J_P_A said, is the comb filter. The comb filter will produce frequency dips that you may "hear though" with most sound elements (real sounds, not test tones). It's hard to say. You can almost surely hear it if you were to play white or pink noise through both loudspeakers and move within the listening area. You should detect unusual timbral shifts with fairly small movements.

Directivity of the speakers will make a difference. I expect that calibrators would prefer tightly controlled dispersion in this application - but that's just my inference.

There may be other effects that are of concern to calibrators which I am not aware of, but this is what I've been able to determine from my reading. Dennis and Shawn continue to recommend QSC dsp units.
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post #21 of 71 Old 09-02-2013, 01:26 PM
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If you are comparing dipole surrounds, that is a different ball game.smile.gif

Not really, the one's I use is neither/ a bit of both. Direct fullrange with dipole tweeters.

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post #22 of 71 Old 09-02-2013, 01:36 PM
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Current XT32 settings

Surround Right -7.5 db
Surround Left -9 db

Surround Right back -4.5 db
Surround Left Back -5.5 db

Seems to me, results are what I expected ie. volume on side surrounds have been lowered by approximately 3 db due to doubling the number of side surrounds.

Definitely not scientific lab results......but a start. biggrin.gif
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post #23 of 71 Old 09-02-2013, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post

10ms ? That's a spatial difference of 10 feet+. That's way too much.

From what little I've been able to find on the subject the recommendation is to set the delay for a row based on the distance (I would guess the money seat), and then add a 10 ms delay to the subsequent set of speakers. No mention of the distances to the listener. As Fred said, this is an attempt to deal with comb filtering.

I don't have any personal experience with this, but Toole at least is held in high regard by some for his research. I've been reading about this off and on for a while now, but very little is available online. I'm certainly open to suggestions for how this is done by the professionals.

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post #24 of 71 Old 09-02-2013, 05:18 PM
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I suspect their little secret will stay under wraps...........taking bread out of their own mouth is not their M.O. biggrin.gif
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post #25 of 71 Old 09-02-2013, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

From what little I've been able to find on the subject the recommendation is to set the delay for a row based on the distance (I would guess the money seat), and then add a 10 ms delay to the subsequent set of speakers. No mention of the distances to the listener. As Fred said, this is an attempt to deal with comb filtering.

I don't have any personal experience with this, but Toole at least is held in high regard by some for his research. I've been reading about this off and on for a while now, but very little is available online. I'm certainly open to suggestions for how this is done by the professionals.


Well, this is my setup for the tv room.


I walk through it with movies/tv on quite frequently and I don't experience any fluctuations in level or timbre that would indicate audible comb filtering. If that's the setup or the (very) particular surround speaker design that's behind than, I can't say. It's the three on the sides for SR and SL (one is hiding just behind the wall where the room opens to the staircase) and one each for SBR/SBL.

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post #26 of 71 Old 09-03-2013, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

For now, there is no time delay with speakers.............just splitting signal and passing through individual channels in amp..........and to be honest, I don't really feel there is a need for changing time alignment. Roger Dressler will visit my room in the future...........will be interesting to see what his thoughts are and how to make corrective changes. For now, I have a minidsp on order and will use for any time alignment changes.
........

Did Roger spec the minidsp?

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post #27 of 71 Old 09-03-2013, 05:37 PM
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Did Roger spec the minidsp?

No.................Mike at AVS suggested........and he is currently using one. I have a technical background, so I'm figuring on a quick learning curve with the Minidsp 10 X 10.

Roger stated he would think on that one ie. decorrelation between rows of surrounds.............................though I bet whatever he comes up with would be a great solution.
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post #28 of 71 Old 09-03-2013, 07:19 PM
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So Roger is not familiar with decorrelating the two sets of surrounds? I'd be interested to know what his approach to calibrating them is.

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post #29 of 71 Old 09-03-2013, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
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So Roger is not familiar with decorrelating the two sets of surrounds? I'd be interested to know what his approach to calibrating them is.

Not at all...................just how it could be done. Hopefully, if Roger is seeing this...........




.........it might be sooner than later!!! biggrin.gif
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post #30 of 71 Old 09-04-2013, 01:39 AM
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It's 9:37am here in the UK and I'm thinking about breakfast - you're not helping!!!

Any chance of some eggs and beans with that? smile.gif

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