128" 2.35:1 Theater Project w/3 week Time Limit. "Warp Factor 9.5 -Engage..." - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 75 Old 11-06-2013, 10:02 AM
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so I suppose the only issue one could possibly come across with a transducer if the room was correctly built of course would be a potential failure? which would require having to tear out that part of the drywall?

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post #62 of 75 Old 11-06-2013, 06:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Chaves View Post

so I suppose the only issue one could possibly come across with a transducer if the room was correctly built of course would be a potential failure? which would require having to tear out that part of the drywall?

Why do people always use the "Tear Out" description? rolleyes.gif

With either existing home retrofits, or the unlikely repair / replacement, a 6" x 11" rectangle is cut out above or below the Transducer location, the piece removed, and either you reach in and unscrew the unit and replace it, then add deadwood across the opening and re-insert the cut-out, tape & refinish....or take a fully assembled Transducer / sound board and insert in the hole, either above or below the opening, then drive 4-6 drywall screws through the wall into the Board. Deadwood,Tape, refinish.

The Transducer is extremely rugged. Totally sealed. 90 continuous "Full Range Content" watts of handling power, and 200 watts Peak. In 1 Transducer per channel apps, very seldom is the 90 watt continuous ever reached....but in Home Theaters, where I might be paralleling 3 or 4 -8 ohm units ( 2.5 & 2 ohm loads), I effectively triple or quadruple the power handling. Usually, such multiple driver parallel arrays are then series'ed with a identical load to achieve a higher impedance. If 4 units with a total of 360 watts continuous are paired via a series circuit with 4 identically wired units, (a cumulative 4 ohm load) you have a 8 Transducer array where each unit can get a full 45 watts each. The Transducers will achieve 85 db+ at 15 watts continuous, 45 watts represent the unit receiving considerable dynamic power...well into the Headroom of the Amplifiers output. Transducers thrive on dynamic headroom...because such allows the Voice Coil to insert all the more energy into a structural solid.

So.......I design and install such high powered Theaters all the time. I do no....yes I said no repairs. Leastwise I've only had 3-4 units fail over the last 5 years, out of well over 2500+ And that is just me. Other end users, from the Military to Industrial....I simply get no requests for replacement units. Nada.

Does that mean they are impossible to damage. No. Can they be "Blown". Certainly...but you must abuse them beyond any level of common sense. Can they fail for other reasons, such as poorly attached connectors....bad wiring....Electrical surges (lightning)...of course...just like any other voice coil / magnet structure built device that depends upon a correct installation and a lack of God's intervention.

But after 35 years with the little cretins, I should know what...and not what do do, and what works best...and what promises I can make and keep, and which ones to NOT make..

All that gives me piece of mind 99% of the time, and when I train a Dealer in installation techniques and design criteria, it's to do so with my own experience being the guide. Basically, I've been doing that sort of thing since the Mid-80s, so it should explain to most why I'm stuck in a rut of my own making helping fellow AVS''ers do DIY Screens, and other sundry things.

The Theater in this Thread has just 4 Transducers across each channel of the Front sound stage, 2 ea. at R & L Rear, and 1 ea. at Center Rear. That's a total of 18 units, and represents perhaps a full 65-70% of the basic systems I design and build.

The 56+ Monster in RedTopDown's Theater...that's my real case of self-induced nirvana because it represents the pinnacle of what can be accomplished...at least in a Home setting. wink.gif
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post #63 of 75 Old 11-06-2013, 06:19 PM
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sorry I meant no disrespect in my question and thank you for your detailed response, it was very informative and I appreciate that. I went through RedTopDowns theater thread and yes that was a very well done and beautiful and detailed build, it answered a good number of questions about the technology as did your thread here. I will be moving to LA at the end of the month so I hope I will be able to see such tech in person, I figure better odds of that down in LA then way the hell north in hick town Redding lol which is where I reside now. ^^;;

Again thank you for always posting detailed and informative post when you dont need to or where most other people wouldnt, that is just awesome of you. smile.gif

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post #64 of 75 Old 11-13-2013, 04:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, I have 3 days under my belt (...and at least a dozen Octoberfest-s) at the Home show.

Some few screenies here:





I will post close up images of the Chairs soon, and a description and Mfg of same.


Daniel,

Don't even give it a thought. I was only stating how it seems that everyone assumes that a major tear-out effort is required. Your post was only a goad to a response, and in no way was that response intended as a rebuke. smile.gif

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post #65 of 75 Old 11-13-2013, 06:55 AM
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How's the traffic being?

Any feedback?

How did the walkthrough on the other houses go? Similarities -- Contrast.

Looks nice. Hope you have a great turnout.

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post #66 of 75 Old 11-13-2013, 09:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Yesterday was really cold, today even colder. I think it was unfortunate circumstances dictated the Show start so late in the Fall this year, instead of the 1st week in October as it usually does. So traffic is slow until Mid-day, but after that, composing a Post will become impossible, time wise.

Would it seem too obviously biased sounding to say nothing comes close to the clarity and contrast and brightness, let alone ambient light viewing performance? Well it's true .

One home also has a Panny 8000 w/ a itty bitty 92" screen and it is simply dim and indistinct by comparison. One other is a 200" Matte White Draper 2.35:1 w/ Sim2 Chrystal Cube and Panamorph Lens w/Sled...and a very dim set-up it is. By my reckoning they WAY overshot their boundaries, and are getting at best 9 foot lambert. tongue.gif

The latter system is part of what is priced as a $90,000.00 Theater rolleyes.gif

My system? $9500.00

I just hooked up a Modem and Router in the Equipment rack, so this missive is being brought to you in "real time" as I sit and watch Pacific Rim ( BluRay DVD)

Tough duty......but I'm persevering cool.gif

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post #67 of 75 Old 11-14-2013, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Well...., I was asked what type of audio the Transducers can put out. Basically, trying to record a decent sound tract using a Pocket-sized digi-cam is a futile effort at best.

Here is a treat direct from the show. A very old, Standard Definition DVD of The BeeGees,(One Night Only) played on the OPPO 103, through the ONKYO 808 and the Invisible Stereo system, with the image via the Panny 8000 onto the Silver Fire screen. Video courtesy of my itty bitty widdle Canon Power Shot 260 HS

Why...I should be Dancin'....Yeah!

http://s586.photobucket.com/user/MississippiMaurice/media/VESTA%202013/MVI_1468_zps3a6a3ad2.mp4.html



Give a look and listen and tell me what you think.

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post #68 of 75 Old 12-12-2013, 10:38 AM - Thread Starter
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OK....I have had 10 days to recover my sanity and soak my feet. I came away from this experience with some high praise from several thousand show goers.

The best comment of all? "Is that a TV?" to which I reply, "No it's a Projection System and Screen"...to a response, "Really ?!!!?...to which I follow up, "But actually, that is not a Screen...it's Drywall painted to create a ultra high Contrast High Definition image".

"NO WAY !!!"

So I tell 'em, I don't have any "Do Not Touch" sign under my screen, so go Rap on it with your Knuckles.....hard."

They invariably do...although some ingrained instinct makes them just "Tap" so I usually have to insist they Rap harder..... tongue.gif

The end result is a lot of people were hanging around, telling others exactly what i had just stated. Cut me some slack time, they did. biggrin.gif

But beyond that, having the 143" be compared to and being stated as being "as good as" the 65" 4K Direct View sets being shown elsewhere was very satisfying....indeed.

Sound-wise, there was also the usual question; "Where are the Speakers?" and the resulting stares of disbelief upon my answer about the Drywall producing the sound. Then...a whole 'nother round of Hands getting Touchy-feely on the Walls and Screen.

All around, it was those responses (...a well as little bit of acquired business... wink.gif ) that kept those 24 days from becoming a "21 Days Later" affair and my turning into a Zombie.


I would at this point like to stress that a good deal of the perceived quality of the Image was due to the Wall / Ceiling Treatment

Black surfaces being referred to as being the "best" for reflective light control is not really the case. Black can be tediously dull, and if one must result to using Fabric, unless strict observance as far as maintaining Fire safety and Burn resistance is observed, a room swathed in Polyester Velvet is a tragedy waiting to happen.

If an darker surface of a Matte, darker shade is used along with effective light control (properly placed and directed lighting) the end result can be the suppression of most all light where needed most.

As an example:

The room was designed to be used in both full illumination. In fact. all the photos taken have the shown degree of lighting in the 1st image present in the rear areas above the seating. The Rear Door is always open as well.

photo Imagea10_zps8ca3fa7c.jpg



The next "Intense Flash Shot" shows the actual colors...a Dark Gray with very slight Greenish undertone, and a Light Gray with very slight greenish overtone.

photo AWallunderbrightestflash_zps412ca787.jpg

The same without Flash in actual room lighting:

photo Amoresubduedshotinlighting_zps0143d91d.jpg

These next 5 shots were taken with the image in motion, hence the slight blurring...but the first 3 show the actual color of the Wall, and the amount of wall / ceiling reflection...or lack thereof quite well.

photo ADoggieonameatyBone_zpsa1210034.jpg

photo Apacificshot_zpsec8037d3.jpg

photo Image21d_zpse98604c1.jpg


photo Image23d_zps4e214b89.jpg


photo Image9b_zps37b7a719.jpg

Here is a composition shot of the same projected image in total darkness and full room lighting:

photo darkintolight_zps2091cf44.jpg

And just so as to show that this is no "small" screen, but a 143" 2.39:1 biggie:

photo ALeelootear-n-me_zps3392aa06.jpg

With no Hot Spotting or Viewing cone issues:

photo Imagea11_zps89789c26.jpg

photo Image12c_zps790c9b83.jpg

It's all about a wise choice in Color / sheen. "Black" as being defined as a absence of reflected light, not the actual color "Black"......

So at this point I wrap up this Theater project. But there are more in the immediate future. Next up ( Pre-Wire is in ) is one where I must deal with a room where to the right side of the Screen the side wall consists of a Knee Wall / Sloped Ceiling...and the Left side is "square Framed".

9' Ceilings...two Platforms....12 Chairs....26 Transducers...6 Clark Tactiles, 2 Outlaw LFM-2Plus Subs, Onkyo 818 w/ Emotiva 5 Channel Amp (315 wpc) for R-L-C-R&L Rear amplification, OPPO 103D, Panasonic AE-8000u...and of course, a 130" Silver Fire v2.5 4.0 Screen on Drywall.

No crazy time restrictions though..........
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post #69 of 75 Old 12-14-2013, 01:37 PM
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Thanks for this fascinating thread/story. I learned a ton in a very short time. Is it safe to say that transducers are something best left to a pro with experience?

I am starting my first install (for myself of course) and I have a dedicated third floor room. Full blackout on the few windows. Room is something like 25w x 35 deep. Walls and ceiling are painted a dark chocolate.

Front wall has a cheap silver ticket (monoprice) 120 inch fixed screen. I have a panny 8000 hanging from the 8ft ceiling and have the ability to hang it anywhere. Not sure what is best, but I'm leaning towards 13-15 ft. Viewing is also very adjustable, I have two rows and will eventually elevate the second row.

I've already got pretty high end Klipsch speakers purchased and an old cht-15 velodyne sub that will be used.

I can put the speakers in wall or ceiling.

Your story makes me worry that I might not be bright enough. I was under the impression that the panny 8000 was a light cannon and I would likely be using Eco mode to tame it. Some of your comments led me to believe some people were having trouble lighting 90inch screens with the panny.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!
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post #70 of 75 Old 12-14-2013, 03:06 PM
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WOW, what a great read. Thanks for all the pics and details.

Here is my build thread:

---->Like a Boss Theater Build<----
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post #71 of 75 Old 12-14-2013, 08:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsteele93 View Post

Thanks for this fascinating thread/story. I learned a ton in a very short time. Is it safe to say that transducers are something best left to a pro with experience?

While it is true that any IS Dealer wishing to repeatedly do business in such must receive Training geared toward effective design and implementation / use of Transducers, many newcomers to the use of Audio Transducers in Industry and Government applications need must receive ad-hoc advice and tutorials instead. In the end, it's all very simplistic, it's just a shift in understanding of the differences between conventional speakers and how they work, and on how the Transducer interfaces with building materials and does what it is capable of doing. For those rooted deeply in conventional thinking, it can be more than a paradigm shift, it can seem patently impossible to even consider. But hearing is believing, and much like observing a advanced DIY Screen application and actually seeing the potential it offers, so too does the Audio Transducer become "believable" once experienced.

More than a few times I have guided individuals in the installation of Transducers, those who did not have a Dealer close enough, nor who could not arrange for me to come in personally. It's a matter of judgement between them and I. It doesn't take much to realize if such is possible, or should be wholly discounted.
Quote:
I am starting my first install (for myself of course) and I have a dedicated third floor room. Full blackout on the few windows. Room is something like 25w x 35 deep. Walls and ceiling are painted a dark chocolate.

Front wall has a cheap silver ticket (monoprice) 120 inch fixed screen. I have a panny 8000 hanging from the 8ft ceiling and have the ability to hang it anywhere. Not sure what is best, but I'm leaning towards 13-15 ft. Viewing is also very adjustable, I have two rows and will eventually elevate the second row.

I would consider that with a 120" diagonal Screen (106" wide x 60") that in a room 35' deep, I'd segment the room to focus on using 16' depth for the Rear seating's "Eye" position and 11' for the Front Row's eye ball pleasure. The Screen's position should be such that the top of the screen's edge should be no more than 9" from the ceiling. as that will allow for the least amount of necessary height of a rear riser. That will however require that the ceiling be effectively treated so as to prevent undue reflective tendencies. You Dark Chocolate ceiling goes far in helping, but the primary issue with any such "Brown" is that it has a overt tendency to reflect a yellowish cast when bathed in bright digitally projected light. This is somewhat counter productive to what one wants. As such, and since your Screen will be crowding the ceiling, an attempt to further mask off the ceiling by painting it out 5' off the Screen wall in a ultra dark Flat Slate Gray...or an even darker (much darker) shade of the same Brown is strongly suggested.
Quote:
I've already got pretty high end Klipsch speakers purchased and an old cht-15 velodyne sub that will be used.

I can put the speakers in wall or ceiling.

Well, avoid the ceiling for the Front R & L Mains and Center. Your room has a excellent, wide front sound stage, so use it to advantage and maintain a separation between both Fronts and the Center equal to at minimum, 1/2 of the width of the screen from each end of the screen. That of course means the distance between the Center and each Front speaker should be 106" = 212" total width -(17.6')

Your Center Speaker is a issue not nearly so easily resolved. To be effective it should reside above the Screen...not below, and be angled toward the heads of the Front Row viewers. Ideally, it should be recessed into the wall as well. so it's cabinet does not reflect light given off by the screen directly below it. (or the exposed underside treated with ProtoStar Telescope Flocking...)

Ideal Rear surround placement then can be 11.7', perfect for placement directly to each side of the front Row. Hopefully your Surrounds are Dipole or Tri-pole design, and are of a Cabinet design that can be suspended just off the ceiling, each also 106" from center, and angled appropriately so that the fire directly at each end and directly above each 1st Row Chair position. Center Rears are placed 1/3rd of the width in from the 106: from Center specification (71") for a combined width between them of 142" (11' 8") Also suspended. Their distance from the Front Wall should be 17', so that there is 5' distance between them and the Rear Surrounds.

In a room as wide as yours, the sound envelope must be restrained to being within effective parameters. Your low ceiling relative to the rooms dimensions requires that....brook no doubt about that or the Klipschs will be rendered less than effective due to room acoustic interaction. Walls can of course be treated to minimize reflection, but the real end result would be effective attenuation to too great a degree.

Oh yeah.....get another 12" Sub and place it at rear behind the Riser. You'll need it....desperately...less the Velodyne be pushed so far as to create a overbearing Bass to fill that large a space.

The projector is best placed directly to the rear of the 2nd Row, the lens effectively directly above the heads of the viewers. (16' Throw)
Quote:
Your story makes me worry that I might not be bright enough. I was under the impression that the panny 8000 was a light cannon and I would likely be using Eco mode to tame it. Some of your comments led me to believe some people were having trouble lighting 90inch screens with the panny.

I cannot conceive of how you came up with that....or where i have ever stated such an opinion. My goodness...in this Thread I was lighting up a 143" diagonal screen from a Throw of 15.5'...although my screen is somewhat higher in gain than 1.0 In your case, as suggested above, a 16' throw onto a 1.0 Gain - 120" diagonal screen equates to a Foot Lambert figure of 15 fls in Eco mode, which is very adequate for a light controlled room with minimized reflection.
Quote:
Any thoughts?

Thanks!

.....you bet. I wish your Ceiling was higher...it's a grossly limiting factor in your room design...especially in choosing a screen size that can accommodate a 2nd Row Riser w/Seating and the Placement of a conventional Center Channel speaker.

It's no coincidence that I would place Transducer arrays in the identical configuration as I suggested to you. If speakers can ideally be placed, then almost always Transducers follow suit. What differentiates Transducers the most from speakers is how they can be placed ideally in situations and circumstances not conducive to effective speaker placement. Center Channel and Rear / Center Rear Surround placement being among the most prevalent examples. Ya gotta love a wall that be a Center Channel while also serving as a High Contrast High Definition screen. wink.gif

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Originally Posted by Yzfbossman View Post

WOW, what a great read. Thanks for all the pics and details.

Thank you for reading, and your compliment. If all I accomplish in doing such is stir up some thinking and give some ideas some exposure, then i consider the effort well spent.

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post #72 of 75 Old 12-15-2013, 12:55 PM
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MM,

Wow, very nicely done. Everything looks fantastic. I know how passionate you are about your work. Glad that the time spent on the project will pay off with some additional work/clients. Thanks for sharing!

Regards,

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post #73 of 75 Old 12-17-2013, 10:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks RTR!

I've followed (...and followed...and followed....) your Thread for literally years. I appreciate your comments very much, owning to the fact that you've seen plenty of great Theaters pass you up....er, I mean pass by on the Threads. wink.gif

Yes...it was all a great success. An added boost came this last weekend on Sunday...2-4 pm, when the 5 Homes in the show left unsold held a brief Open House. All were devoid of Furniture, and all the other Theaters were bereft of equipment....but not mine! Good thing too because over just two hours I spoke to at least 10 couples, and amazingly 2 were referral, s coming from prior Show attendees, and who came specifically to see my Theater! Even closed on a "Lay down and give it to me" sale out of one. biggrin.gif

I also featured BBQ Ribs and Beer / Soft Drinks, and ("chuckle") folding Canvass Chairs. (...my Theater Chairs got "sold'ded" )

I have a couple unique Builds coming up very soon I plan to share, so keep an eye open for 'em.

MM

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post #74 of 75 Old 12-18-2013, 05:50 AM
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Just curious MM - are most of these builds and clients across state lines like this one, or do you get enough business way down in the bottoms?
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post #75 of 75 Old 12-18-2013, 05:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Just curious MM - are most of these builds and clients across state lines like this one, or do you get enough business way down in the bottoms?

Well the one in this Thread is in Tennessee, but only 15 minutes from my House. I live just 1.5 mile across the Tenn/MS State line (...but ya does hafta go through the Bottoms to get to me...) I do wander up North as far as Indy / Cincy / St. Louis...and down further South quite often, down to the Gulf Coast, NOLA, FLA, ALA, TX, ARK....driving up to 500/600 miles, after that it's all Jet, Baby.

About 30-40% of my business is in other States, primarily a lot of Screens (bigguns)...and some A/V Systems and Theaters. After a Show, Theater Retrofit Requests zoom the percentage of local jobs up to 75%-80% . I do a crap load of Bonus Room conversions...rooms many other companies simply pass on.

I discriminate against no one. Big...small...US/Abroad....I go where I'm needed / requested. I have lots of fun doing what I do, meeting people and watching Jaws drop to the Floor with a thud...that always recharges the 'ol batteries. biggrin.gif

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