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post #961 of 1122 Old 06-11-2014, 01:53 AM
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Jvoth..& PI,

Thanks for the bulb conservation tips.
Vince.
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post #962 of 1122 Old 06-11-2014, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlbeck View Post

Two questions for those attending the GTG on 6/28. Event starts at noon. The attendee list is getting quite long (post #3) so planning the schedule based on numbers. PM me if you wish.

1. Are you planning on leaving before 6:00pm?

2. Are you interested in staying later in the evening to sit down and watch a movie starting at approximately 8:00 - 9:00?

1) Probably will be gone before 6:00pm. I will need to drive home.
2) I am sure that someone will ask anyway, but which movie? (might influence answer to question #1)
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post #963 of 1122 Old 06-11-2014, 08:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by nickbuol View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by dlbeck 

Two questions for those attending the GTG on 6/28. Event starts at noon. The attendee list is getting quite long (post #3) so planning the schedule based on numbers. PM me if you wish.

1. Are you planning on leaving before 6:00pm?

2. Are you interested in staying later in the evening to sit down and watch a movie starting at approximately 8:00 - 9:00?


1) Probably will be gone before 6:00pm. I will need to drive home.
2) I am sure that someone will ask anyway, but which movie? (might influence answer to question #1)
I'm open to suggestions...
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post #964 of 1122 Old 06-12-2014, 03:37 AM
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by dlbeck View Post
Calibration all done. Jeff Meier is a great guy to talk with and work with. Here are some before and after pictures. I can tell you it looks a mile better than previously so not sure what you can see in the pictures.

Before


After



Before


After


Before (THE video reference movie )


After



Before


After


Before


After


Before


After
I actually liked the BEFORE.. hahhaha
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post #965 of 1122 Old 06-12-2014, 03:43 AM
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David-

The Sony VPL-HW55ES projector has no problem lighting up your large screen?

That would be great not having to step up to VPL-VW600ES...save me lots of $$

Thanks Vince
I have seen both the 55ES and the 500ES side by side.. it's no competition.. really light and day difference.. like comparing a porsche with a toyota..

But if money is an issue, then don't ever, ever, ever, audition the 500ES because once you do, there's no turning back. I was always planning to get the 55ES, but once i saw the 500ES, I just had to get that one instead...

It's not just about 'light output' which is a huge deal... one is difinitely far, far brighter, but also video quality...
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post #966 of 1122 Old 06-14-2014, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by chriscmore View Post
In my discussions with Jeff, he's calibrated around 2000 home theaters. As far as I know, he is the most knowledgeable and experienced person in the industry in this respect. No one has had to correct more real life issues (so many mainstream products with dumb errors such as phase reversal and bass management errors in their code) with more of a reference perspective than he has. When he bought his Photo Research $25k colorimeter, he found three errors with it and their engineering agreed and corrected his meter. In an industry rich with knowledge and experience, he is at the top of the group.

Cheers,
Chris

Thanks Chris. Your screens are awesome as well. It is a shame Stewart so aggressively attacks weaves like yours.

Yesterday for example I fixed a Symetrix DSP used to do bass management that was coupled to a Krell preamp and McIntosh amps in a 9.4 Wisdom Audio system on Long Island. Three other acousticians tried for days to get it right including the manufacturer. They all failed to do even a credible job. I fixed it in about 5 hours including a complete rewrite of the code. The number of people in this business who have even passable skills at audio and video setup is very small.
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Last edited by umr; 06-14-2014 at 06:37 AM.
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post #967 of 1122 Old 06-14-2014, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by chriscmore View Post
In my discussions with Jeff, he's calibrated around 2000 home theaters. As far as I know, he is the most knowledgeable and experienced person in the industry in this respect. No one has had to correct more real life issues (so many mainstream products with dumb errors such as phase reversal and bass management errors in their code) with more of a reference perspective than he has. When he bought his Photo Research $25k colorimeter, he found three errors with it and their engineering agreed and corrected his meter. In an industry rich with knowledge and experience, he is at the top of the group.

Cheers,
Chris

Thanks Chris. Your screens are awesome as well. It is a shame Stewart so aggressively attacks weaves like yours.

Yesterday for example I fixed a Symetrix DSP used to do bass management that was coupled to a Krell preamp and McIntosh amps in a 9.4 Wisdom Audio system on Long Island. Three other acousticians tried for days to get it right including the manufacturer. They all failed to do even a credible job. I fixed it in about 5 hours including a complete rewrite of the code. The number of people in this business who have even passable skills at audio and video setup is very small.

I would presume you can do wonderful things with a Trinnov TEQ-12?
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post #968 of 1122 Old 06-14-2014, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by chriscmore View Post
In my discussions with Jeff, he's calibrated around 2000 home theaters. As far as I know, he is the most knowledgeable and experienced person in the industry in this respect. No one has had to correct more real life issues (so many mainstream products with dumb errors such as phase reversal and bass management errors in their code) with more of a reference perspective than he has. When he bought his Photo Research $25k colorimeter, he found three errors with it and their engineering agreed and corrected his meter. In an industry rich with knowledge and experience, he is at the top of the group.

Cheers,
Chris

Thanks Chris. Your screens are awesome as well. It is a shame Stewart so aggressively attacks weaves like yours.

Yesterday for example I fixed a Symetrix DSP used to do bass management that was coupled to a Krell preamp and McIntosh amps in a 9.4 Wisdom Audio system on Long Island. Three other acousticians tried for days to get it right including the manufacturer. They all failed to do even a credible job. I fixed it in about 5 hours including a complete rewrite of the code. The number of people in this business who have even passable skills at audio and video setup is very small.

I would presume you can do wonderful things with a Trinnov TEQ-12?
I do not find those systems along with other automatic and other over processed audio to perform the best.

Based in what I find I have little comfort in automatic systems fixing many problems and they tend to add errors of their own.

Here is a link to my observations with these systems. homecinemaguru.com/will-automatic-audio-calibration-lead-to-great-sound-or-even-optimal-sound/

Last edited by umr; 06-14-2014 at 11:16 AM.
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post #969 of 1122 Old 06-14-2014, 11:12 AM
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What kind of audio processing is in place at David's?

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post #970 of 1122 Old 06-14-2014, 11:27 AM
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What kind of audio processing is in place at David's?
I believe it was an Onkyo preamp with a Rane Parametric PE-17 equalizer.
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post #971 of 1122 Old 06-14-2014, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by umr View Post

I do not find those systems along with other automatic and other over processed audio to perform the best.

Based in what I find I have little comfort in automatic systems fixing many problems and they tend to add errors of their own.

Here is a link to my observations with these systems. homecinemaguru.com/will-automatic-audio-calibration-lead-to-great-sound-or-even-optimal-sound/
I can understand sentiment............Trinnov unit is tweakable. In hands of a talented calibrator, sky is limit. I've heard unit in a private theater which provided the best sound field I've ever experienced. Owner did have unit calibrated by professional.........
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post #972 of 1122 Old 06-14-2014, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlbeck View Post
Two questions for those attending the GTG on 6/28. Event starts at noon. The attendee list is getting quite long (post #3) so planning the schedule based on numbers. PM me if you wish.

1. Are you planning on leaving before 6:00pm?

2. Are you interested in staying later in the evening to sit down and watch a movie starting at approximately 8:00 - 9:00?
David I am guessing we will need to leave before the movie and make the several hour trek back home. Twins birthday party the next day. We still need to nail down who is riding with who since carp and I will be bringing back speakers with us from Jeff. So I am not sure if we plan to leave before 6 but I will get back with you.

And I am going to be very interested in how the 212's perform in your space since I just bought carps right and left channels. Will be picking up the center channel from Jeff on the 28th. I am sure it will be a bit different with the MBM's.
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post #973 of 1122 Old 06-15-2014, 04:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

I do not find those systems along with other automatic and other over processed audio to perform the best.

Based in what I find I have little comfort in automatic systems fixing many problems and they tend to add errors of their own.

Here is a link to my observations with these systems. homecinemaguru.com/will-automatic-audio-calibration-lead-to-great-sound-or-even-optimal-sound/
I can understand sentiment............Trinnov unit is tweakable. In hands of a talented calibrator, sky is limit. I've heard unit in a private theater which provided the best sound field I've ever experienced. Owner did have unit calibrated by professional.........
The best sound I hear is in systems that do the following:

- locate speakers correctly
- use equipment appropriate for the room size
- use high end tweeters for front channels
- three way speakers for front channels with limited frequency anomalies
- room acoustics that conforms to the Dolby specification based on T10 measurements
- minimize manipulation of the source material
- flat frequency response based on SMPTE 222M with headroom to hit reference SPL levels
- well designed 15" or 18" subwoofers
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post #974 of 1122 Old 06-15-2014, 05:37 AM
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The best sound I hear is in systems that do the following:

- room acoustics that conforms to the Dolby specification based on T10 measurements
I don't want to put you on the spot, but can you elaborate a little about this?

I was unfamiliar with Dolby's particular recommendation here, so I searched, and found "Dolby Stereo Technical Guidelines for Dolby Stereo Theatres" (1994) which seems to say (if I'm reading the guidelines right) that RT60 for small rooms (say 3000cuft) should be pretty low - like 0.2s. They allow for a little blooming at very low frequencies, and a little extra dryness at very high frequencies, which I understand.

I've been shooting or a pretty short reverb time myself in my own (fully DIY) design, but I was a little concerned about going below 0.3s, so I just want to understand if I'm reading right, and such tight time domain control is of benefit. How short is too short?

Fred
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post #975 of 1122 Old 06-15-2014, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post
The best sound I hear is in systems that do the following:

- room acoustics that conforms to the Dolby specification based on T10 measurements
I don't want to put you on the spot, but can you elaborate a little about this?

I was unfamiliar with Dolby's particular recommendation here, so I searched, and found "Dolby Stereo Technical Guidelines for Dolby Stereo Theatres" (1994) which seems to say (if I'm reading the guidelines right) that RT60 for small rooms (say 3000cuft) should be pretty low - like 0.2s. They allow for a little blooming at very low frequencies, and a little extra dryness at very high frequencies, which I understand.

I've been shooting or a pretty short reverb time myself in my own (fully DIY) design, but I was a little concerned about going below 0.3s, so I just want to understand if I'm reading right, and such tight time domain control is of benefit. How short is too short?

Fred
Too short is when you go below the Dolby spec. It is nearly impossible to design a small room acoustically correct on paper alone. I have seen this happen in about 1 in 200 designs. There are just too many unknowns to not have to take measurements and tweek it.

Unknowns include:

- furnishings acoustical properties
- low frequency sound loss
- impact from lack of uniformity
- installed acoustical performance versus published (fabric wall effect, AT screen effect, location efficiency, data accuracy...)

There are also numerous ways to measure RT60 which will generate wildly different values at these low reverb levels. I find T10 values of RT60 along with the Dolby spec results in a room that acoustically matches high end mix theaters like Sony which I have been in. Getting reliable T10 measurements is another challenge. You can buy many different products and get about as many different answers as the number you own.

It is very hard to meet this spec from 32Hz to 16kHz. Less than 10% of the theaters I work in do. Many fail because of sound isolation which can wreck reverb at 32Hz. It is also very difficult to pull down the frequencies in the trend shown. I had to make custom 1/4" panels for my theater to get 4-16kHz to drop without making 32Hz bad.

It is much easier to meet the Dolby spec if you keep the room reverb at 500Hz above the midpoint for your room.

Last edited by umr; 06-15-2014 at 07:32 AM.
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post #976 of 1122 Old 06-15-2014, 06:50 PM
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David-

I booked my ticket to Des Moines from FL....

I figure in one day I can see/hear the following:

JTR 212/S8/215 speakers
JTR S2 Subs
Seymour AT screen
Sony HW55ES Projector
JRiver HTPC setup
Crest amps
plus MBM's

Hang with guys who are crazy about audio/video like me...

looking forward to it...

Vince
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post #977 of 1122 Old 06-15-2014, 07:07 PM - Thread Starter
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That's great news Vince. Looking forward to meeting with you and Talking plenty about HT.

Last edited by dlbeck; 06-15-2014 at 07:19 PM.
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post #978 of 1122 Old 06-15-2014, 07:17 PM
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That's great news Vince. Looking forward to meeting with you and Tallinn plenty about HT.
same here!!
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post #979 of 1122 Old 06-16-2014, 06:33 AM
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How is everyone going to "fit" into the theater? LOL

Just remember, that I claimed my seat (and I think that I am the only one that has done so) back a few weeks ago.
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post #980 of 1122 Old 06-16-2014, 06:42 AM
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How is everyone going to "fit" into the theater? LOL

Just remember, that I claimed my seat (and I think that I am the only one that has done so) back a few weeks ago.
You didn't hear about the lap assignments?
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post #981 of 1122 Old 06-16-2014, 01:59 PM
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What kind of audio processing is in place at David's?
HTPC running JRiver Media Center and Audiolense XO

The Home Theater of the Month article has an overview.
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post #982 of 1122 Old 06-17-2014, 10:21 AM
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Many fail because of sound isolation which can wreck reverb at 32Hz.
Can you elaborate on this? Rooms fail because they don't have sound isolation, or the construction method used for sound isolation wrecks other aspects of audio within the room?

 

 

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post #983 of 1122 Old 06-17-2014, 10:29 AM
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Decay times at very low frequency tend to be very long. Since absorption at those frequencies is so hard to achieve, the most effective way to dissipate that energy is to let it out of the room. Isolation measures are at odds with damping low frequencies (transmission loss).
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Decay times at very low frequency tend to be very long. Since absorption at those frequencies is so hard to achieve, the most effective way to dissipate that energy is to let it out of the room. Isolation measures are at odds with damping low frequencies (transmission loss).
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post #985 of 1122 Old 06-17-2014, 05:42 PM
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Decay times at very low frequency tend to be very long. Since absorption at those frequencies is so hard to achieve, the most effective way to dissipate that energy is to let it out of the room. Isolation measures are at odds with damping low frequencies (transmission loss).
I'm wondering...maybe there's a way to attach a special flap-blocked vent to an always-on microphone in a sound isolated room...

Once a sub hits 50Hz or so, the vent could flap open and the pre/pro could increase volume rapidly to compensate for decrease in pressure as the LFE energy is released, returning to normal lfe volume when lf signal is no longer detected. It would take some serious engineering to make this work, but its definitely possible...maybe...perhaps...feasibly...

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post #986 of 1122 Old 06-17-2014, 06:02 PM
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What is/can be done is to use additional subs creatively. On the one hand, simply ("simply" - maybe not so simple) position and adjust sub signals around the room so that they can work together to deliver strong bass without over stimulating room modes. On the other hand, there are ways to use active noise cancellation technology to drive subs with "anti-noise" of sorts to actively absorb low frequency energy. (I've been trying to come up with a link, but I am forgetting the search terms that make google find it...) There are a few different solutions available, but I'm not sure how they compare to careful multisub integration.
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post #987 of 1122 Old 06-17-2014, 08:10 PM
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What is/can be done is to use additional subs creatively. On the one hand, simply ("simply" - maybe not so simple) position and adjust sub signals around the room so that they can work together to deliver strong bass without over stimulating room modes. On the other hand, there are ways to use active noise cancellation technology to drive subs with "anti-noise" of sorts to actively absorb low frequency energy. (I've been trying to come up with a link, but I am forgetting the search terms that make google find it...) There are a few different solutions available, but I'm not sure how they compare to careful multisub integration.
Multi-subs, properly positioned = active room mode cancellation even when fed the same signal.

Simple example which works in the favor of two channel systems is the first axial width mode cancellation from one speaker being in the positive polarity of the mode and the other being in the negative.

See here for a few decent articles: http://store.acousticfrontiers.com/S...ers-Learn.html. The Blu-Ray forum ones are particularly useful for visualizing multi-sub room mode cancellation.

In Davids room we positioned the two subs upfront for some cancellation -they are at the 25/75% of room width. Unfortunately the seats were already positioned and the second row was in a null for an important axial length mode, but we did as best we could. You can see great seat-to-seat consistency at the axial width mode frequencies but not so great at the axial length mode, as you'd expect. Note these are simulations that don't take into account room damping of modal activity. I use them for understanding optimizing seat-to-seat variability through sub and listener placement.

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File Type: png 25 75 stage.png (26.9 KB, 190 views)

Master of Minions, Acoustic Frontiers. We specialize in the design and creation of high performance listening rooms, home theaters and project studios for discerning audio/video enthusiasts.

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post #988 of 1122 Old 06-17-2014, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post
Decay times at very low frequency tend to be very long. Since absorption at those frequencies is so hard to achieve, the most effective way to dissipate that energy is to let it out of the room. Isolation measures are at odds with damping low frequencies (transmission loss).

I wonder if that is dependent on how heavy the moving mass would be in a clip and channel system. I would think there are frequency low bands that are damped by such suspension systems. Take a look at these two waterfalls and spl charts. The only difference is the ceiling going from a drop ceiling to a double layer hat channel whisper clip system all the system settings and speaker/mic placements are identical. In the 38-50hz range with a new double layer OSB/dry wall on hat channel and whisper clip I have more initial SPL with faster decay times. Of course some of the adjacent frequencies do not have that same response. Certainly not in the much lower region where basically the decoupling has no effect on damping.
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File Type: jpg drop ceiling waterfall.jpg (98.5 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg spl drop vs new.jpg (44.0 KB, 11 views)
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Pre-Pro: Emotiva UMC-1, DSP: Mini DSP 2x4 balanced
Amplifier: Sunfire TGA7400, Lab Gruppen FP10000Q
Speakers: JTR Noesis 212HT (LCR), JTR Slant 8's (surrounds), 3 Orbit Shifter LFU's
Sources: PS3, HTPC, Dish Network
Projector: Epson 8350
Screen: Seymour XD AT 138" diagonal 16:9

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post #989 of 1122 Old 06-18-2014, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post
I wonder if that is dependent on how heavy the moving mass would be in a clip and channel system. I would think there are frequency low bands that are damped by such suspension systems. Take a look at these two waterfalls and spl charts. The only difference is the ceiling going from a drop ceiling to a double layer hat channel whisper clip system all the system settings and speaker/mic placements are identical. In the 38-50hz range with a new double layer OSB/dry wall on hat channel and whisper clip I have more initial SPL with faster decay times. Of course some of the adjacent frequencies do not have that same response. Certainly not in the much lower region where basically the decoupling has no effect on damping.
Yes, below 60hz drywall on clips offers greater absorption than drywall on wood studs, as your data shows, and I have other data also from kinetics that says the same.
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post #990 of 1122 Old 06-18-2014, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post
Yes, below 60hz drywall on clips offers greater absorption than drywall on wood studs, as your data shows, and I have other data also from kinetics that says the same.
Would triple drywall on clips be overly absorbent? Would more than two balancing subs need to be employed in such an environment to battle this?
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