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post #1 of 1198 Old 11-09-2013, 10:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Home Theater of the Month - June 2014

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1534823/ht...onth-the-savoy

Well I finally started my build thread which is a good thing because I'm not too far a long. The house is new construction and we picked out a house design that would support a decent sized theater. :-) I've read a lot of build threads and some people spend a lot of time documenting every step they take. I appreciate that greatly since I'm using one theater as my model theater which I'm sure most of you are already familiar with: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1208912/th...ruction-thread . Many things will be similar to this theater but there are still quite a few differences and some I haven't figured out yet. I have also asked Nyal Mellor from Acoustic Frontiers to perform the acoustic analysis on my room which Nyal featured in his April Newsletter:


Here are the layout schematics:

Side View



Top View

Soffit Detail





Speakers:
Currently I have a quasi home theater that is half living space and half home theater with Salk HT2-TL's as my towers and a Salk HTC2 as the center channel. Dual JTR S2's play sub duty and old Axiom QS8's are my two surrounds. The new theater will be 9.6 and I'm going all JTR for the speakers for the mains, subs and surrounds. With the help of DesertDome, we built 4 mid-bass modules (MBM's) The LCR will be Noesis 212's and the 6 surrounds will be JTR S8's. For subs I'm going to keep my dual JTR S2's with both of them placed up front behind the screen. To help with the mid-bass I am adding 4 midbass modules that will feature Acoustic Elegance PB18H+ drivers. (The Salks are going upstairs for 2 channel.)

Speaker summary with quantity and possible crossovers. Total of 15 channels including eight 18" drivers.

LCR - JTR Noesis 212's (Qty 3) - 150 Hz & up
Side Surrounds - JTR S8's (Qty 6)
Midbass Modules - DIY featuring 18" Acoustic Elegance PB18H+ drivers (Qty 4) - 40 Hz - 150 Hz
Subs - JTR Captivator S2's (Qty 2) - below 40 Hz

Projector & Display:
I currently have a Epson 8350 which has done great over the last two years. I'm still evaluating my options for a projector. I need a projector that can throw 21' and fill up at 12" wide screen. Originally I was going with a Sony 1000ES but have decided to pull back until 4K goes more main stream. With the size of screen I wanted and the throw distance I didn't have too many options. For the screen I'm going with none other than a Seymour Center Stage XD 2:37 AT curved screen. Screen size will be 147.8" wide by 63.2" tall.
12/20/13 Update - I have purchased an Epson 6030 and a Panamorph UH480 anamorphic lens.
4/15/14 Update - Sold the Epson and bought a Sony HW55ES. After a lot of reading on AVS and several reviews became increasingly concerned about the fan noise.

Equipment:
Some of this is still up in the air. I currently have a Denon 4311 but I plan to go with separates. I decided to pick up the Sherbourn PA 7-350 after half the JTR owners purchased one so this will power 7 of the 9 speakers but after continued issues brought to light in other threads about buzzes and hums I decided to sell the Sherbourn and bought Crest Audio and Behringer amps. Lighting will be all Insteon controlled with dimming capability. Everything will be controlled by the amazing iRule home theater remote control system which I currently use on an iPad (thanks Steve!). Still working on the other equipment.

Current equipment list (4/29/14):

HTPC running JRiver Media Center (see more below)
Solid State Logic Alpha Link MX
Torus AVR-15 Isolation Transformer
Crest Audio CC4000 Amp (Qty 2) - Power the LCR
Crest Audio CC1800 Amp (Qty 3) - Power the 6 side surrounds
Behringer iNuke 6000 amps to power the four MBMs.

Seating
Front Row - 3 Palliser Rhumba home theater chairs
Second Row - 4 Palliser Rhumba home theater chairs
Back rom - dry bar with seating for 4-5 people

Soundproofing & Acoustic Treatments
The room will be isolated acoustically from the rest of the house using most of the best practices from all the other build threads - DD, GG, clips, serenity mat, etc. Although I've done more research on acoustic treatments than anything else it still left me undecided on what exactly to do so I asked Nyal to help me figure it out.The side walls will have 7" of room for acoustic treatments behind GOM fabric. The rear wall will have 8" of space which doesn't include the speaker cubby hole that will be 28" deep. Here is the acoustic treatment plan from Nyal.

I went back and forth numerous times on using a HTPC vs a conventional pre/pro, bluray player, etc. Here are the reasons I went with a HTPC running JRMC. Thanks DesertDome!

Video
Instant playback of Blu-ray from disc with no wading through menus
Automatic ripping of Blu-rays
Instant access to ripped Blu-rays
Highest quality chroma upscaling for Blu-ray
Upscale to 4K using highest quality scaling algorithms
Set playback ranges of videos
Create virtual clips for accessing songs on concert Blu-rays
Convert video to audio for extracting songs from concert Blu-rays for use on portable devices
Create dynamic views of content (new movies, movies not watched ever, movies not watched in the past year, TV shows
Unlimited storage (just keep adding hard drives or NAS)
Remember settings on a per video basis such as subtitles, position, soundtrack, etc.

Audio
64-bit processing for all DSP (EQ, level, distance, internal volume)
Decoding of any format - no limitations
Use of internal volume maximizes digital headroom
No clipping on the input of amps when using internal volume
Complete control of all EQ and easily make changes
Dynamic room curve follows equal loudness contours to make all frequencies sound relatively the same regardless of volume
Adjust LFE volume differently than redirected bass below the crossover

TV
Record OTA with as many tuners as you have available
Schedule recordings
Watch recorded or live TV on other clients

Variety of Settings
Different audio/video setting/EQ for Blu-ray Movies, Blu-ray Concerts, Music, DVD, and TV all set to maximize the audio/video for each type of content. Regardless of what content is chosen, it is automatically routed through the correct settings
Easy User Accounts - Set up user accounts and only show media for that user.

Control
Control the media using iOS, Android, laptops, PCs, or other TVs/hardware using iRule, iRemote, Gizmo, WebGizmo, DLNA, or library server

Streaming
Stream all content (TV, Movies, Music, home videos, pictures) to other computers or devices anywhere in the world there is internet access
Stream to tablets while on vacation
Choose quality of conversion for streaming
Stream to any computer anywhere using WebGizmo - no software needed on the client
Subscribe to podcasts and have them automatically downloaded, tagged, and ready for streaming or copying to other devices
Performer - subscribe to JRiver's Performer and have access to 8+ million songs for streaming or copying to other devices

Easily update to changing codecs, video improvements, audio improvements, etc. There are others and also some disadvantages but I'm heading this route first.
I'm hoping the house and theater will be completed no later than May 1. I'll keep updating this thread as we go along. If you have any suggestions for anything please let me know. Thanks.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf SavoyTheaterAcousticTreatmentPlan.pdf (337.2 KB, 145 views)


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Last edited by dlbeck; 09-18-2014 at 05:56 PM.
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post #2 of 1198 Old 11-09-2013, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Here are some of the first pics and a few of the completed room:

The theater is 24" below the rest of the basement. Just dirt:


Walls:


Floor poured:


Some walls up - view toward the equipment room:


View toward the screen wall:


Almost Done




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post #3 of 1198 Old 11-09-2013, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Grand Opening on 6/28/14. Please let me know if you're interested in attending. See post #872 for more details.

Updated 6/27/14
1 DesertDome
2 Carp
3 Jeff Permanian from JTR (bringing the JTR 215 RTs)
4 Cshuff
5 Nickbuol
6 Brausch
7 IA_HI_FI_Guy
8 Stitch1
9 Archaea
10 joshp14
11 Luke Kamp
12 Brad S
13 Baniels
14 MrSmithers
15 NicktheGreat
16 IgnoringMyWife
17 ecrabb
18 Chris Seymour from Seymour AV
19 Lukeamdman
20 Nebrunner
21 stormwind13
22 Jedimastergrant
23 vince32387
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27 134lrs
28 ThomasKott

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post #4 of 1198 Old 11-09-2013, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Index for Savoy Build Thread

Introduction
Savoy Grand Opening Attendees
Origin of the Savoy Name
Update on HVAC
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post #5 of 1198 Old 11-09-2013, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
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I held the Savoy Grand Opening on June 28th and went through these overview slides.

Here is the YouTube link to Nyal Mellor's video this is discussed on the slides:
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Last edited by dlbeck; 07-01-2014 at 04:08 PM.
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post #6 of 1198 Old 11-09-2013, 12:12 PM
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First fellow JTR freak to follow yoru thread smile.gif Love the speaker and projector selection eek.gif


My updated (2/2014)HT set-up


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post #7 of 1198 Old 11-09-2013, 12:14 PM
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LOVE the dimensions of that room. 2 rows and a bar or will it be 3 rows, I couldn't find/see that? 6 surround speakers? NICE! cool.gif How does that work, are the 2 side surround speakers on each side wall playing the same thing?

As far as screen size you have to go as big as possible IMO. Mine is 147 inches wide and I have never thought I should have gone smaller. Go with the 150 for sure.

Sorry I'm no help with suggestions since I have zero experience with a dedicated room but I will be following this thread and can't wait to see your room someday!

If I remember right, this is real close to your current house?


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post #8 of 1198 Old 11-09-2013, 12:26 PM
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Carp - In the JTR thread you said, "That's going to be incredible David!!" I thought you meant my stupendous LMS 5400 end tables...until I saw this thread. Magnificent indeed! Subscribed!
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post #9 of 1198 Old 11-09-2013, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post

Carp - In the JTR thread you said, "That's going to be incredible David!!" I thought you meant my stupendous LMS 5400 end tables...until I saw this thread. Magnificent indeed! Subscribed!

Haha, hey anything that involves the 5400's should indeed be incredible! biggrin.gif


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post #10 of 1198 Old 11-09-2013, 01:34 PM
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Blank slate - Very cool! Good luck. I'm looking forward to following along. What are your HVAC plans?

Clearly, I'm a man of action - just give me a few minutes to think about it.

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post #11 of 1198 Old 11-09-2013, 02:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

LOVE the dimensions of that room. 2 rows and a bar or will it be 3 rows, I couldn't find/see that? 6 surround speakers? NICE! cool.gif How does that work, are the 2 side surround speakers on each side wall playing the same thing?

As far as screen size you have to go as big as possible IMO. Mine is 147 inches wide and I have never thought I should have gone smaller. Go with the 150 for sure.

Sorry I'm no help with suggestions since I have zero experience with a dedicated room but I will be following this thread and can't wait to see your room someday!

If I remember right, this is real close to your current house?

Hey Carp. What's your seating distance to the front row? Mine will be about 12' to 12'6" so a 150" wide screen is a pretty wide viewing angle for the front row. Also, cuts down my brightness from about 21 FL on a 140" wide screen to 18 FL on a 150" wide screen. Not sure if I want to lose that much brightness. As with anything there's trade-offs everywhere.

Also, there will be two sets of side surrounds for each row. There are a lot of different ways to do this and haven't decided on the best way yet. Here's a thread that talks about some of the issues and options:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1488704/having-four-speakers-as-surround-for-two-row/40_40#post_23801950

And yes, this house is about 2.5 miles from our existing :-)


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post #12 of 1198 Old 11-09-2013, 02:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjlewie View Post

Blank slate - Very cool! Good luck. I'm looking forward to following along. What are your HVAC plans?

I'm working with a HVAC engineer now. He's running thru the load calculations and best way to isolate the HVAC acoustically. Also got lots of good advice from AVS member TMcG. Right now I plan on doing a dedicated zone for the home theater.


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post #13 of 1198 Old 11-09-2013, 02:24 PM
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Hey Carp. What's your seating distance to the front row? Mine will be about 12' to 12'6" so a 150" wide screen is a pretty wide viewing angle for the front row. Also, cuts down my brightness from about 21 FL on a 140" wide screen to 18 FL on a 150" wide screen. Not sure if I want to lose that much brightness. As with anything there's trade-offs everywhere.

And yes, this house is about 2.5 miles from our existing :-)

Sitting on the first row my head is 11' 6" from the screen. I love the size for movies - especially 2:35:1 movies, I think it's perfect. Before I had a 2nd row I was at 14'6 from the screen and I thought I wouldn't like being any closer but I tried moving up and like it better.

In 16:9 my diagonal size is only 124", not sure how wide that is but obviously a lot smaller than 2:35:1. I've found that when I go from 16:9 to 2:35:1 my eyes don't mind the increase at all since it's just the width that is getting bigger. I think if my screen were any taller thought I would be too close to it.


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post #14 of 1198 Old 11-09-2013, 02:33 PM - Thread Starter
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And since I couldn't think of a good name for my build thread I decided to name it after an old, abandoned theater from my hometown....the Savoy.

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post #15 of 1198 Old 11-09-2013, 04:53 PM
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You will really like the 1000......................I can vouch for it! With you room depth and width....................maybe the 150" screen might be warranted. Can understand your reasoning behind using 140" screen................but I can tell you for sure, the projector can light it up! wink.gif

My room is 17 X 25 X 10................quite a bit smaller than yours.........................140'' is huge in my room, but I LOVE it. Don't give up on 150". biggrin.gif

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post #16 of 1198 Old 11-09-2013, 06:52 PM
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Subscribed! Looking forward to following along on this one.

Question....what anamorphic lens do you plan on using with the Sony 4K projector? Second, if you are going with the 140", 150" or greater size screen, I'd recommend that you consider a curved screen. A curved screen at that size will preserve the proper pixel geometry vs. a flat screen, fyi.
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post #17 of 1198 Old 11-09-2013, 06:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Everything I've read and discussed has led me to believe a a-lens is not needed with this projector. Thoughts?


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post #18 of 1198 Old 11-09-2013, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlbeck View Post

And since I couldn't think of a good name for my build thread I decided to name it after an old, abandoned theater from my hometown....the Savoy.


Very cool idea.


My updated (2/2014)HT set-up


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post #19 of 1198 Old 11-09-2013, 07:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Subscribed! Looking forward to following along on this one.

Question....what anamorphic lens do you plan on using with the Sony 4K projector? Second, if you are going with the 140", 150" or greater size screen, I'd recommend that you consider a curved screen. A curved screen at that size will preserve the proper pixel geometry vs. a flat screen, fyi.
There is a lot of discussion on this topic on post 6519 and following on this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1359018/sony-vpl-vw1000/6510


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post #20 of 1198 Old 11-09-2013, 07:38 PM
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Congratulations! That is going to be a fantastic size space you are starting out with!

Good luck and look forward to following along.


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post #21 of 1198 Old 11-10-2013, 01:05 AM
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Don't forget in your HVAC plans to not only have air coming in, but something taking air out. Of course, in winter you run into the same problem that all of us do living in the midwest.... We run heat in winter, so closing the vents in the theater room may prevent HVAC heat from coming in, but then you have nothing to replace the air that the system is going to need to pull out of the room due to heat from equipment and people.

Most HVAC people look at just heating and cooling, and not the fact that you need something that can cool the space in winter too when you want to run heat for the rest of the house. Trust me, the room WILL get warm with people sitting in it alone. You can't count on the natural cooler basement temp in winter. It doesn't stay cool enough.

Good luck. Do it right, otherwise you will be fighting this heat issue like I am. I could have done some things to help with some of it during my construction phase, now it means tearing into finished walls, etc.

Oh, and keeping sound out of the vents is easy. Just have them use some of the flexible and insulated duct with some slight bends in it. Works GREAT and is a common product. That is what The Soundproofing Company shows in all of their duct soundproofing diagrams too.

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post #22 of 1198 Old 11-10-2013, 03:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlbeck View Post

There is a lot of discussion on this topic on post 6519 and following on this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1359018/sony-vpl-vw1000/6510

Yes, I've seen that thread. There's a lot of comment, but there are two truths that justify an anamorphic lens with a curved screen for very large (140"+ width) screens. First is the 25% - 33% bump in brightness that comes with using an anamorphic lens vs. zooming. This might not matter when the bulb is new, but as the bulb loses brightness, it becomes more important. The exception is 3D, which can tolerate all the brightness you can give it right off the bat.

The second is the keystone that will happen. If you take a string line and run it from the front of the projector's lens to the center of the screen, and then start moving that string toward the outer portions of a flat screen you'll find by the time you get to the outer edge the string will be many inches from the screen surface. This difference in projection distance is what causes picture distortion such as keystone. It is unavoidable and the Sony 4K projector does not have any internal picture manipulations that can digitally alter the pixel position and geometry to correct these distortions.

The curved screen therefore does two important things....it allows the focal distance to be the same at all points on the screen. The other is that it increases perceived brightness since more of the reflected light is directed back to the main viewing position and not headed off toward the side walls as it would with a flat screen.

You could skip getting the lens initially and add it later (at a sacrifice to brightness), but you should give strong consideration to a curved screen right from the start for these reasons. Just my two cents, of course.
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post #23 of 1198 Old 11-10-2013, 06:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickbuol View Post

Don't forget in your HVAC plans to not only have air coming in, but something taking air out. Of course, in winter you run into the same problem that all of us do living in the midwest.... We run heat in winter, so closing the vents in the theater room may prevent HVAC heat from coming in, but then you have nothing to replace the air that the system is going to need to pull out of the room due to heat from equipment and people.

Most HVAC people look at just heating and cooling, and not the fact that you need something that can cool the space in winter too when you want to run heat for the rest of the house. Trust me, the room WILL get warm with people sitting in it alone. You can't count on the natural cooler basement temp in winter. It doesn't stay cool enough.

Good luck. Do it right, otherwise you will be fighting this heat issue like I am. I could have done some things to help with some of it during my construction phase, now it means tearing into finished walls, etc.

Oh, and keeping sound out of the vents is easy. Just have them use some of the flexible and insulated duct with some slight bends in it. Works GREAT and is a common product. That is what The Soundproofing Company shows in all of their duct soundproofing diagrams too.

Thanks for the input Nick. I'll make sure I discuss that with HVAC engineer....all good points and for the most part we have discussed them. But it's really good to hear about real life accounts of the downfalls when you don't do it right. A couple times when I have been discussing this theater with the "non-crazy, non-audio, non-home theater" crowd they typically don't get an appreciation for the unusual nuances that home theaters present.


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post #24 of 1198 Old 11-10-2013, 07:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

Yes, I've seen that thread. There's a lot of comment, but there are two truths that justify an anamorphic lens with a curved screen for very large (140"+ width) screens. First is the 25% - 33% bump in brightness that comes with using an anamorphic lens vs. zooming. This might not matter when the bulb is new, but as the bulb loses brightness, it becomes more important. The exception is 3D, which can tolerate all the brightness you can give it right off the bat.

The second is the keystone that will happen. If you take a string line and run it from the front of the projector's lens to the center of the screen, and then start moving that string toward the outer portions of a flat screen you'll find by the time you get to the outer edge the string will be many inches from the screen surface. This difference in projection distance is what causes picture distortion such as keystone. It is unavoidable and the Sony 4K projector does not have any internal picture manipulations that can digitally alter the pixel position and geometry to correct these distortions.

The curved screen therefore does two important things....it allows the focal distance to be the same at all points on the screen. The other is that it increases perceived brightness since more of the reflected light is directed back to the main viewing position and not headed off toward the side walls as it would with a flat screen.

You could skip getting the lens initially and add it later (at a sacrifice to brightness), but you should give strong consideration to a curved screen right from the start for these reasons. Just my two cents, of course.

Good input and I have received two quotes from Chris for the screen - a curved one and a flat. Either is certainly doable and I have a a little bit to figure that out. My concern is the lens....yuck. A good lens that can handle 4K and doesn't degrade the quality of the Sony 1000ES lens is over $17K....way over budget. Well, I think Mark Haflich from the Sony thread has posted that before. I know just enough to probably make the wrong decision here but certainly don't want to put a lens in front of the projector that will degrade the picture. At first I was looking at the Sony HW50ES and using an A-lens/video processor and I was looking at almost the same cost as the 1000ES. So for now, no lens but could swing the curved screen. When I'm ready for a new projector that can do 4K, 10 bit, 4:2:2 then I can re-evaluate my options.


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post #25 of 1198 Old 11-10-2013, 07:37 AM
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I assume you are talking the ISCO III with the automated slide. If you wait long enough and keep active on Audiogon, eBay, this Forum's classifieds, they'll typically go second-hand in mint condition for $4000 to $6000 for the whole system. Here's an example: http://app.audiogon.com/listings/isco-iii-anamorphic-lens-with-cineslide-motorized-sled It may take a while to source one, but they are available at 1/3 the retail price.

I believe the Schneider Cine Digitar 1.33 anamorphic lenses would also handle 4K, correct? If so, here is a lens currently for sale on eBay for $3k: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Schneider-Cine-Digitar-Anamorphic-1-33x-lens-/111210087675?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19e4a344fb You'd have to confirm that this lens size would work once you finalize your screen size, fyi. Add a Cineslide: http://www.techht.com/ and you'd have the whole system for about $4500.

Food for thought.
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post #26 of 1198 Old 11-10-2013, 08:21 AM
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post #27 of 1198 Old 11-10-2013, 01:06 PM
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post #28 of 1198 Old 11-10-2013, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

Yes, I've seen that thread. There's a lot of comment, but there are two truths that justify an anamorphic lens with a curved screen for very large (140"+ width) screens. First is the 25% - 33% bump in brightness that comes with using an anamorphic lens vs. zooming. This might not matter when the bulb is new, but as the bulb loses brightness, it becomes more important. The exception is 3D, which can tolerate all the brightness you can give it right off the bat.

The second is the keystone that will happen. If you take a string line and run it from the front of the projector's lens to the center of the screen, and then start moving that string toward the outer portions of a flat screen you'll find by the time you get to the outer edge the string will be many inches from the screen surface. This difference in projection distance is what causes picture distortion such as keystone. It is unavoidable and the Sony 4K projector does not have any internal picture manipulations that can digitally alter the pixel position and geometry to correct these distortions.

The curved screen therefore does two important things....it allows the focal distance to be the same at all points on the screen. The other is that it increases perceived brightness since more of the reflected light is directed back to the main viewing position and not headed off toward the side walls as it would with a flat screen.

You could skip getting the lens initially and add it later (at a sacrifice to brightness), but you should give strong consideration to a curved screen right from the start for these reasons. Just my two cents, of course.

You bring up many sound issues but IMHO keystone is not a perceived issue in my room. I researched .....sent many pm to 1000ES owners with the same concerns you have brought up. I was set on using a curved screen but was convinced not to go that route. In addition, I planned on using an ISCO lens but it created more issues and was also advised to use the 4K lens. At $15,000 plus for the ISCO...........well, my beautiful wife put her foot down on that one.

I can vouch no A-lens nor curved screen is needed with the 1000ES.......well, at least in my application. biggrin.gif

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post #29 of 1198 Old 11-10-2013, 02:39 PM
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Guys,

I'm admittedly no expert, but from my understanding of the situation, the curved screen is of specific benefit to those with anamorphic lenses. To be more price, the artifacts that were mentioned earlier are often side effects of the add-on lenses, so the curved screen helps offset some of that.

In general, most higher-end projectors have very flat-field, rectilinear lenses, resulting in an image with uniform focus from center to edge, with very little bow or pincushion. Keystone generally is only present in an installation where the projector is installed such that the lens isn't parallel to the screen in both axes.

To bring it back full circle, the VW1000's lens is excellent with respect to resolution, focus, and geometry, and designed for a flat screen.

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post #30 of 1198 Old 11-10-2013, 02:46 PM
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^^this.

Curved screens are especially useful at short throws with a-lenses. Without a-lenses or at long throws, the benefits are small, at best.


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