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post #31 of 3356 Old 11-11-2013, 04:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post


That will look great! I was thinking, you could take a plumb bob to line up recessed ceiling lights directly above each amp and get a pin spot trim kit like this http://www.lightinguniverse.com/recessed-lighting-trims/con-tech-lighting-ctr2005-p-4in-minirecessed-pin-spot-recessed-lighting-trim-white_240547.html?af=1525&cse=1525&gclid=CLCZ1Z2B3roCFQXf4AodNGAAAA&gclsrc=ds to focus the downlight directly on the amp for a really cool lighting effect.

Excited to see all the other ideas you have knockin' around inside your head!

Thanks man....that's a great idea! I could maybe top the pedestals with a reflective, mirror-like material too, so shoot for all-around illumination.  I'm excited about that prospect.  I shamelessly admit that I didn't know pin spot trims existed.  Perfect for the job :-) 

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post #32 of 3356 Old 11-12-2013, 10:01 AM
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Subscribed Matt!

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post #33 of 3356 Old 11-12-2013, 11:15 AM
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I'd never be able to afford land in california to buy a house...especially in orange county lol! Subscribed

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post #34 of 3356 Old 11-12-2013, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Subscribed Matt!

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post #35 of 3356 Old 11-12-2013, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, please forgive the long post before-hand, but my mind is racing here:

 

  1. Does anyone out there have success with creating reversible GoM panels?  I know/think I could build one, but keeping the clean aesthetics on both sides would be a challenge..or would it?  My GoM panels will also be accent pieces, with the primary color in the theater probably being Black.  I’d like to swap between Black/gold and Black/Red by simply flipping the panels.  Also, a concern is finding a way to fasten them.  I’d probably have to go friction-fit, but are there any other options besides Velcro and friction fit that wouldn’t interfere with the aesthetic value on either side of the reversible panel?
  2. What is this concept of “charging” the star ceiling?  I thought LEDs or glow-in-the-dark paint were the only options.  No?
  3. Has anyone here had success with treatments to the extent that their room is near-flat before equalization.  Before I started prepping my current room for renovation, I had it very well treated and my measurements were close to flat sans EQ so I kept EQ off for the most part.  I know that riser and soffit bass-traps are popular, but would I be in danger of “over-treating?” the room by going the riser and soffit bass-trap route? I believe measurements only tell part of the story, but it’s a very important part of the story.
  4. What are the thoughts here on screen-size v. seating distance?  I started ignoring those distance calculators a long time ago, and spent the last couple of years enjoying a 10’ wide Stewart ST130 screen at around an 11’ seating distance. The picture was pristine and immersive…..HOWEVER…..I’m stepping up to a 13’ wide screen, with seating distances at around the 11’ (first row--won't get much use except for gaming) and 17’6” (rear row) with 4k material.  Should I be concerned?  I guess I can just hang the projector first ,and test on the wall before getting the screen, but I DON’T want to hang the projector so early in the project.  I will run the risk of getting (gulp) Loganed!:eek:
  5.  

 

Any input to the above questions would be MOST appreciated!

 

-Matt

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post #36 of 3356 Old 11-12-2013, 02:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Found the answer to #1: magnets!
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post #37 of 3356 Old 11-12-2013, 02:05 PM
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1. Not sure
2. I do not know what charging a star ceiling is either ,but there are fiber optic star ceilings as well.
3. Treat the room when and where necessary. Have to measure first, then you will know.
4. 13' wide at 11' distance is really in your face. With a really good projector like the one you picked out, I don't think you will see a screen door effect. I would mask out the screen and sit 11 feet from it and see how big it really is.

my $.02
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post #38 of 3356 Old 11-12-2013, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post

What is this concept of “charging” the star ceiling?

"Charging" is the term used in conjunction with glow-in-the-dark star ceilings. It's the process of using UV light to give the glow-in-the-dark stars their glow.
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post #39 of 3356 Old 11-12-2013, 04:38 PM
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I'm looking at a Sony VW600ES projector, as well. My research indicates that it probably wouldn't be bright enough on a 13-foot wide 1.1 gain screen. I'm looking a a 1.5-gain 12-foot wide 2.35:1 AT screen. My calcs are posted in my build thread.
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post #40 of 3356 Old 11-12-2013, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBon View Post

I'm looking at a Sony VW600ES projector, as well. My research indicates that it probably wouldn't be bright enough on a 13-foot wide 1.1 gain screen. I'm looking a a 1.5-gain 12-foot wide 2.35:1 AT screen. My calcs are posted in my build thread.

Find out what screen size and gain was being demo'd at Cedia. It was certainly large but I don't recall the specifics now.
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post #41 of 3356 Old 11-12-2013, 07:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post

1. Not sure
2. I do not know what charging a star ceiling is either ,but there are fiber optic star ceilings as well.
3. Treat the room when and where necessary. Have to measure first, then you will know.
4. 13' wide at 11' distance is really in your face. With a really good projector like the one you picked out, I don't think you will see a screen door effect. I would mask out the screen and sit 11 feet from it and see how big it really is.

my $.02

Appreciate the responses!  Ah yes, it looks like the only way to really determine the right seating distance is to fire up the projector beforehand and judge for myself.  As Dick Dastardly would say after Penelope Pitstop would outsmart him:  "Drats...and Double Drats!"

 

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"Charging" is the term used in conjunction with glow-in-the-dark star ceilings. It's the process of using UV light to give the glow-in-the-dark stars their glow.

Thank for clarifying.  I suppose the UV lights are directed at the ceiling from somewhere atop the soffits? Hmmm, I"ll need to give some thought to that implementation.  I planned to have the soffit connect to the floating ceiling.  Looks like I"ll need a gap on top--which is perfectly OK.  It gives me an opportunity to add some rope-lighting into the mix.

 

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Originally Posted by LeBon View Post

I'm looking at a Sony VW600ES projector, as well. My research indicates that it probably wouldn't be bright enough on a 13-foot wide 1.1 gain screen. I'm looking a a 1.5-gain 12-foot wide 2.35:1 AT screen. My calcs are posted in my build thread.

Uh OH.....you're placing a sharp rambo knife right over my bubble and are threatening to pop it! lol....but seriously though, I am a little concerned about this.  I may need to decrease to twelve feet as well.  I'm headed right over to your page (which I may end up emulating, as I'm not sure my room's depth of 18 feet is enough to provide a comfortable second row.

 

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Find out what screen size and gain was being demo'd at Cedia. It was certainly large but I don't recall the specifics now.

Does anybody know what size/gain that screen was?  I'll be purchasing a screen from Falcon Screens, but I'm sure Rich can match whatever the configuration of that screen was (if it's a reasonable configuration--if the CEDIA demo screen was around 2.0 gain, then it's off the table).

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post #42 of 3356 Old 11-12-2013, 08:59 PM
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Does anybody know what size/gain that screen was?

Mike Garrett says it was a 179” diagonal 16:9 Stewart with ST130.
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post #43 of 3356 Old 11-13-2013, 01:34 AM
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Thank for clarifying.  I suppose the UV lights are directed at the ceiling from somewhere atop the soffits? Hmmm, I"ll need to give some thought to that implementation.  I planned to have the soffit connect to the floating ceiling.  Looks like I"ll need a gap on top--which is perfectly OK.  It gives me an opportunity to add some rope-lighting into the mix.

The best approach is to simply extend the horizontal underside of the soffit past the vertical edge, creating a cantilevered shelf to rest your UV black lights, rope light, etc. IIRC when I looked into a painted star ceiling, the painted stars charge best with a UV light with a wave length of 306 nanometers.
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post #44 of 3356 Old 11-13-2013, 06:23 AM
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You can also hang some crown molding at/near the bottom of the soffit face and tuck the UV light source in the space behind it - but make sure that the molding is large enough.
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post #45 of 3356 Old 11-13-2013, 09:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBon View Post


Mike Garrett says it was a 179” diagonal 16:9 Stewart with ST130.

Having owned an ST130 in the recent past, this gives me hope. I've seen what it can do with a JVC projector at 10 feet.  i think the increase in the Sony's brightness over the JVC should compensate for the two-foot increase in size (provided i do 12 feet instead of 13, which I'm ok with).  Best bet would probably to get a screen sample and test out the projector to see if real-world picture is satisfying.

 

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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post


The best approach is to simply extend the horizontal underside of the soffit past the vertical edge, creating a cantilevered shelf to rest your UV black lights, rope light, etc. IIRC when I looked into a painted star ceiling, the painted stars charge best with a UV light with a wave length of 306 nanometers.

 

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You can also hang some crown molding at/near the bottom of the soffit face and tuck the UV light source in the space behind it - but make sure that the molding is large enough.

I will try both of these on a six-foot sample soffit and see which one works best.  Thanks to you both.  I'll be sure to look for the 106 Nanometer UV lighting. Maybe I could mix an LED star ceiling with the painted ceiling. I'd probably have to do the painted start ceiling first, and then install the LED's.  It sounds like a headache, but I would only use LED's for, say, key constellations to make them a little brighter.  Would such a combination be worth the hassle? I wonder.

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post #46 of 3356 Old 11-13-2013, 09:33 AM
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I will try both of these on a six-foot sample soffit and see which one works best.  Thanks to you both.  I'll be sure to look for the 106 Nanometer UV lighting. Maybe I could mix an LED star ceiling with the painted ceiling. I'd probably have to do the painted start ceiling first, and then install the LED's.  It sounds like a headache, but I would only use LED's for, say, key constellations to make them a little brighter.  Would such a combination be worth the hassle? I wonder.

I had the same thought (doing a combination of both) about 18 months ago and had a good exchange with Jeff at Night Sky Murals at the time. I had proposed sending some of the Lockfast Prelude material in the Eclipse color recommended by FOSI to be painted by Jeff, taking care to note the orientation of the fabric when he is finished and ready to return to me. Jeff would tailor his painting depending on the fiber optic star layout I would provide. I would then adhere the fabric on my MDF panels for the fiber optic installation. The plus side is that it saves the expense of Jeff having to travel to your home. The downside is that the paint has a standard glow-in-the-dark yellowish color that could be easily seen against the black with the naked eye and, more importantly, it was not something Jeff had done before. In other words, he was used to painting on non-fabric surfaces as you might imagine. Throw in the fact that the number of UV lights you need to sufficiently charge the ceiling can start to add up from a cost perspective and you can see where I started to abandon the idea or merging the two systems before I even got started. It still would be interesting to see someone try.

The other point Jeff had mentioned before is if you had the ability to create a slight barrel to the ceiling, the stars will charge more evenly and not be brighter on the sides than in the middle where the light is a bit more diffuse.. I would have loved to create a barrel ceiling, but I am already restricted on headroom and that would have killed my soffit design.

With FOSI's fiber optic system there is a way to make the constellations MUCH brighter and be in the astrologically correct positions in the sky as they specialize in planetarium work for commercial projects. About 28 seconds into this video you can see how they can highlight the constellations:
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post #47 of 3356 Old 11-13-2013, 04:14 PM
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I bought black micro suede fabric from ATS acoustics. I had planned using it for bass traps and treating reflection points. Once it came in I noticed it was thick and you can't even blow through it. I then draped some cut peices over both Submersives and LR JBL towers. It begins to show reflective properties at 1khz. It can be a good thing in trying to control the liveliness and deadness of a room.
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post #48 of 3356 Old 11-13-2013, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post

Having owned an ST130 in the recent past, this gives me hope. I've seen what it can do with a JVC projector at 10 feet.  i think the increase in the Sony's brightness over the JVC should compensate for the two-foot increase in size (provided i do 12 feet instead of 13, which I'm ok with).  Best bet would probably to get a screen sample and test out the projector to see if real-world picture is satisfying.

Remember that with a Stewart AT screen, you have to de-rate the gain by 10% for Microperf, so my Ultramatte 150 1.5 gain becomes 1.35 gain. On the other hand, you don't really get any gain on the woven screens. Most of the tests I've seen show they don't have the gain they claim.
Also, a 179 In. diagonal 16:9 is 13 feet wide and 7 ft. 4 in. high, or 95 sq. ft.. My 12 ft wide screen would be 81 inches high in a 16:9 aspect ratio, or equivalent to 81 sq. ft. So it takes 17% more lumens to get the same screen brightness on a 13 foot wide screen.
Bottom line, as far as I know, Stewart is the only game in town if you need an AT screen with gain.
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post #49 of 3356 Old 11-13-2013, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

I bought black micro suede fabric from ATS acoustics. I had planned using it for bass traps and treating reflection points. Once it came in I noticed it was thick and you can't even blow through it. I then draped some cut peices over both Submersives and LR JBL towers. It begins to show reflective properties at 1khz. It can be a good thing in trying to control the liveliness and deadness of a room.

I heard the same thing about that material somewhere else. I went ahead and bought the burlap material from them.
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post #50 of 3356 Old 11-13-2013, 06:23 PM
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Matt, are you using an anamorphic lens? That will help with the brightness.
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post #51 of 3356 Old 11-14-2013, 01:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post

I heard the same thing about that material somewhere else. I went ahead and bought the burlap material from them.

I am going to use it for my soffit traps but obvious get something else for dealing with reflection points

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post #52 of 3356 Old 11-14-2013, 07:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post


I had the same thought (doing a combination of both) about 18 months ago and had a good exchange with Jeff at Night Sky Murals at the time. I had proposed sending some of the Lockfast Prelude material in the Eclipse color recommended by FOSI to be painted by Jeff, taking care to note the orientation of the fabric when he is finished and ready to return to me. Jeff would tailor his painting depending on the fiber optic star layout I would provide. I would then adhere the fabric on my MDF panels for the fiber optic installation. The plus side is that it saves the expense of Jeff having to travel to your home. The downside is that the paint has a standard glow-in-the-dark yellowish color that could be easily seen against the black with the naked eye and, more importantly, it was not something Jeff had done before. In other words, he was used to painting on non-fabric surfaces as you might imagine. Throw in the fact that the number of UV lights you need to sufficiently charge the ceiling can start to add up from a cost perspective and you can see where I started to abandon the idea or merging the two systems before I even got started. It still would be interesting to see someone try.

The other point Jeff had mentioned before is if you had the ability to create a slight barrel to the ceiling, the stars will charge more evenly and not be brighter on the sides than in the middle where the light is a bit more diffuse.. I would have loved to create a barrel ceiling, but I am already restricted on headroom and that would have killed my soffit design.

With FOSI's fiber optic system there is a way to make the constellations MUCH brighter and be in the astrologically correct positions in the sky as they specialize in planetarium work for commercial projects. About 28 seconds into this video you can see how they can highlight the constellations:

Ah, in watching the video, I think the painted ceiling is definitely enough for me.  I really like the comet effect though...I'm thinking I can add a few thin diagonal strips below the painted ceiling with just the comet lights installed. they would have to curve to avoid the major elements of the painted ceilings, but that would give the comet a fun path anyway.

 

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I bought black micro suede fabric from ATS acoustics. I had planned using it for bass traps and treating reflection points. Once it came in I noticed it was thick and you can't even blow through it. I then draped some cut peices over both Submersives and LR JBL towers. It begins to show reflective properties at 1khz. It can be a good thing in trying to control the liveliness and deadness of a room.

Ah, interesting.  So this would be in conjunction with items like linacoustic?  or instead of? Or is this what you wrap your treatments in?  I know this is your wheelhouse, and I find this very interesting.

 

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Remember that with a Stewart AT screen, you have to de-rate the gain by 10% for Microperf, so my Ultramatte 150 1.5 gain becomes 1.35 gain. On the other hand, you don't really get any gain on the woven screens. Most of the tests I've seen show they don't have the gain they claim.
Also, a 179 In. diagonal 16:9 is 13 feet wide and 7 ft. 4 in. high, or 95 sq. ft.. My 12 ft wide screen would be 81 inches high in a 16:9 aspect ratio, or equivalent to 81 sq. ft. So it takes 17% more lumens to get the same screen brightness on a 13 foot wide screen.
Bottom line, as far as I know, Stewart is the only game in town if you need an AT screen with gain.

Hmmm, woven screens' claimed gain is generally inaccurate? That's news to me--I'm getting ready to check out some of those tests. I"ll also chat with Rich from Falcon Screens to verify that his screens have gain.  Very interesting information...

 

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I heard the same thing about that material somewhere else. I went ahead and bought the burlap material from them.

How are you utilizing that fabric in your theater? Soffits, like Jlpowell?

 

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I am going to use it for my soffit traps but obvious get something else for dealing with reflection points

Ah, so the material is good for bass traps, but something like GoM should be used for the first-reflection points?

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post #53 of 3356 Old 11-14-2013, 07:50 AM - Thread Starter
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There has been a very interesting development in the design of the theater.  In the design thus far, I've completely forgotten to account for the two feet I'd need behind the screen.  This changes my *functional* room length from 18ft to 16ft.  What does this mean?  It means I'm going to be doing a one-row design with a bar in the rear, similar to LeBon's design. I would turn the room config 90 degrees, except there's a door on the right wall--hidden by a wide, flat column, that I can't block with a screen, as it provies access to the rest of the basement rooms.  Time to get back into Google Sketch Up and update the plan accordingly.

 

So, now that I'm doing one-row, do i need to bother with a riser?  Perhaps not, unless it's still a good idea to get the eyes fo mid-screen height, since the screen will be a on the large side.  Procurement of the Sony 600ES has been set in motion, so there's no turning back there.  I have a lot more flexibiility of seating distance in relation to the large screen, and that's a plus.

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post #54 of 3356 Old 11-14-2013, 08:08 AM
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Hey Matt. Don't you love these changes that "creep" up on you. See what I did there wink.gif. I forget how far back Craig sits back, and it's really not that tall, but he has one row of seats with that little riser. I guess it all depends on the overall angle of view point from your main seats. Screen location(how far it drops down) would probably dictate if you need a riser or not. You don't want strain neck syndrome. How big of a screen are we talking about now. Will moving up 2 feet make you rethink your screen size?

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post #55 of 3356 Old 11-14-2013, 08:36 AM
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Yes just bass traps. It's easy, from what I've read, to deaden up a room too much. First of all I claim to be no expert and am learning more and more. The more I learn the more I realize I don't know. But REW thread starter jevansoh told me the fact that this material reflects can be a good thing. In REW the liveliness and deadness of a room can be measured. So knowing for sure is possible. If I had 15x15 soffits along all my ceiling to wall junctions and vertical corners along with 10-14 panels and all absorbed full range I think it could put the room on the dead side. This was a nice little discovery because a certain amount of liveliness is good smile.gif. I am essentially repeating here what I was taught. smile.gif

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post #56 of 3356 Old 11-14-2013, 09:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post

Hey Matt. Don't you love these changes that "creep" up on you. See what I did there wink.gif. I forget how far back Craig sits back, and it's really not that tall, but he has one row of seats with that little riser. I guess it all depends on the overall angle of view point from your main seats. Screen location(how far it drops down) would probably dictate if you need a riser or not. You don't want strain neck syndrome. How big of a screen are we talking about now. Will moving up 2 feet make you rethink your screen size?

 

LOL, yeah Mike--I think I might skip the riser, UNLESS--I go all out with a massive 16x9 screen, but keep it 2:35 masked all the time, but unmasked for games and 16:9 content.  'Tis now an option, since I needn't worry about view obstruction.  I won't need to rething screen size since by moving up two feet, I lost the rear row, which means I'e gained about 6 geet of seating-distance flexibility with my row.  I'll probably shoot for a curved 5-seat configuration now.   that actually workes now, since I'll get a sweet spot. Heh heh.

 

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Yes just bass traps. It's easy, from what I've read, to deaden up a room too much. First of all I claim to be no expert and am learning more and more. The more I learn the more I realize I don't know. But REW thread starter jevansoh told me the fact that this material reflects can be a good thing. In REW the liveliness and deadness of a room can be measured. So knowing for sure is possible. If I had 15x15 soffits along all my ceiling to wall junctions and vertical corners along with 10-14 panels and all absorbed full range I think it could put the room on the dead side. This was a nice little discovery because a certain amount of liveliness is good smile.gif. I am essentially repeating here what I was taught. smile.gif

Ah, i look forward to checking out your progress with your treatment builds.  I agree--a little liveliness is a good thing!  For instance, the Fox movie intro (with the gold lettering and drums) sounds so much better in a room with a little "liveliness" to it.  It just sounds more epic that way.

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post #57 of 3356 Old 11-14-2013, 09:31 AM
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Yes I feel the Same way

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post #58 of 3356 Old 11-14-2013, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
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In the vein of getting the most out of my projector, I'm thinking that I'll go the route of getting a motorized screen (12-feet wide) that I'll build into the front soffit and will roll down in front of the regular 12-foot wide screen.  This will be a high gain (2.0 or so, and will be used SOLELY for 3D and gaming.  I think this is a way to get the best of both worlds.  Now, I just need to figure out which screen I'm going to use for the motorized high-gain use. Of course, my primary 2d screen will be a 1.0 gain, standard accurate screen.

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post #59 of 3356 Old 11-14-2013, 09:56 AM
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In the vein of getting the most out of my projector, I'm thinking that I'll go the route of getting a motorized screen (12-feet wide) that I'll build into the front soffit and will roll down in front of the regular 12-foot wide screen This will be a high gain (2.0 or so, and will be used SOLELY for 3D and gaming.  I think this is a way to get the best of both worlds.  Now, I just need to figure out which screen I'm going to use for the motorized high-gain use. Of course, my primary 2d screen will be a 1.0 gain, standard accurate screen.
So two screens. One fixed and one not? I don't think I have ever seen anything like that before. I will be interested in seeing the final result if you can make it work. Are they going to be AT? If you have two screens, will there ever be a point where the speakers will be playing while both screens are down? I mean a roll down screen in front of the fixed screen. That's what you mean right? Are the speakers going behind the "fixed" screen? If you roll another screen down, won't that affect the acoustic properties of the sound coming from behind the screen? Plus, if you watch a movie or play a game with the second screen down, does that affect how light is absorbed by the screen? I mean no matter what, light is passing through the screens at some rate. Won't using a screen in front of a screen change how that is shown and affect the brightness of the overall picture? Of course I admit that I am really in the deep end with projectors and my assumptions may be wrong.

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post #60 of 3356 Old 11-14-2013, 10:51 AM - Thread Starter
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So two screens. One fixed and one not? I don't think I have ever seen anything like that before. I will be interested in seeing the final result if you can make it work. Are they going to be AT? If you have two screens, will there ever be a point where the speakers will be playing while both screens are down? I mean a roll down screen in front of the fixed screen. That's what you mean right? Are the speakers going behind the "fixed" screen? If you roll another screen down, won't that affect the acoustic properties of the sound coming from behind the screen? Plus, if you watch a movie or play a game with the second screen down, does that affect how light is absorbed by the screen? I mean no matter what, light is passing through the screens at some rate. Won't using a screen in front of a screen change how that is shown and affect the brightness of the overall picture? Of course I admit that I am really in the deep end with projectors and my assumptions may be wrong.

I believe the standard effect that an AT screen has on sound is 1db at a particular frequency, which is generally EQ'd out. I'm expecting that effect to double with two AT screens, but will also EQ that right out! I don't think there will be a visible effect in terms of passthrough, as the light will hit whatever screen it gets to first.  Now, will the light shine off the screen behind the drop-down screen and reflect back at the seating area?  that's a great question! I'll have to explore that with screen material before fully committing.  Thanks for raising the point, Mike!

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