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post #631 of 1185 Old 05-16-2014, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

From my perspective go with beefy single doors opening out and down size the row of seating from 5 to 4. add the sit at bar and you still have capacity for 8. If you don't like the door location on the right move just the furnace/water heater. Demoing , re-plumbing and rebuilding a brand new bathroom is an expense that having a single perfectly centered seat can't justify.

That's definitely an option as well. One plumber is letting me spread the bathroom project over time, but once I get another quote on Sunday, I'll know for sure if opening up the space is the plan.
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post #632 of 1185 Old 05-16-2014, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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A couple of surround channels: two Triad Gold LCR's.
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post #633 of 1185 Old 05-16-2014, 12:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Updated plans...this is iteration 5.0:

 

 

 

Creating separate entrance to the mechanicals to avoid having to remove the screen for access.  Room length can be up to 32ft. with this configuration (of course, it won't be that long)

 

 

 

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post #634 of 1185 Old 05-16-2014, 12:47 PM
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OK.
So if I am looking at this right you walk down the steps into your lobby. Then the theater door will put you into the back of the theater. Then there looks like there is another door at the front of the room and that will lead you to the 2ch room. Then there looks like there is another door that leads to your water heater area. And in the last pic, that room at the top of the pic looks to be a bathroom? Did I get it right? That is one major setup.

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post #635 of 1185 Old 05-16-2014, 12:50 PM - Thread Starter
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OK.
So if I am looking at this right you walk down the steps into your lobby. Then the theater door will put you into the back of the theater. Then there looks like there is another door at the front of the room and that will lead you to the 2ch room. Then there looks like there is another door that leads to your water heater area. And in the last pic, that room at the top of the pic looks to be a bathroom? Did I get it right? That is one major setup.

You are correct on everything ,except that there's no more two-channel room.  That room is just the equipment room at this point.

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post #636 of 1185 Old 05-16-2014, 12:55 PM
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You are correct on everything ,except that there's no more two-channel room.  That room is just the equipment room at this point.
So you will be doing a dual purpose room? By equipment you mean your amps, computer etc... That's cool. I wish I could do that to be honest. You are not using a regular dedicated HT preamp right? You have another solution you figured out that will do the processing and room EQ?

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post #637 of 1185 Old 05-16-2014, 01:00 PM
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Beast - can you post a direct overhead shot with some dimensions?

And is there a reason why the bathroom is in that corner location, such as easier access to existing plumbing underneath the slab at that location? Same question for the mechanicals.
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post #638 of 1185 Old 05-16-2014, 01:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post


So you will be doing a dual purpose room? By equipment you mean your amps, computer etc... That's cool. I wish I could do that to be honest. You are not using a regular dedicated HT preamp right? You have another solution you figured out that will do the processing and room EQ?

Yup, I'm absolutely leaning toward the dual-purpose room.  I'll definitely be using a dedicated pre/pro--but it'll need to be Auro 3D capable.  THe Datasat LS-10 is on my short list right now. 

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post #639 of 1185 Old 05-16-2014, 01:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Beast - can you post a direct overhead shot with some dimensions?

And is there a reason why the bathroom is in that corner location, such as easier access to existing plumbing underneath the slab at that location? Same question for the mechanicals.

Yes to both!  The mechanicals actually have pipes running into that corner, and up into the house, so moving them into the corner requires no real custom piping or ducting; it's just adjusting length of pipes/duct on the same run.  The bathroom is located there because that area of the unfinished storage room sits on top of a sewer pipe.  I have given some thought to putting the bathroom where the equipment room is.  Although it might require a little more concrete work, I'd still have that whole room to work with in the future.  Yes another choice to be made. It never ends!

 

Overhead pic with measurements (might be off by a few inches with the thousands of tweaks I've made.  May need to re-baseline):

 

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post #640 of 1185 Old 05-16-2014, 04:05 PM
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Yup, I'm absolutely leaning toward the dual-purpose room.  I'll definitely be using a dedicated pre/pro--but it'll need to be Auro 3D capable.  THe Datasat LS-10 is on my short list right now. 
OK. The LS-10 looks to be very nice. I just thought I remember reading that you had another solution in mind. Maybe I am just hallucinating tongue.gif. I think a dual purpose room is fine. Mine is small but it works out nicely. Craig's room is dual purpose and we both know how good that is. Can't wait for more pics.

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post #641 of 1185 Old 05-16-2014, 06:18 PM
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It's a much better use of the space, that's for sure, it is just going to cost quite a bit to move all of that around. It's a shame you couldn't have had that moved when building the house.
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post #642 of 1185 Old 05-18-2014, 07:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post

OK. The LS-10 looks to be very nice. I just thought I remember reading that you had another solution in mind. Maybe I am just hallucinating tongue.gif. I think a dual purpose room is fine. Mine is small but it works out nicely. Craig's room is dual purpose and we both know how good that is. Can't wait for more pics.

Mike, your memory amazes me! I did indeed consider another solution! This one involved using the Oppo as the sole pre/pro for the music room and the theater, with separate external eq's for each room. Craig's room is mind-blowing and is what I consider a benchmark for home theater performance. I haven't heard yours yet, but I will one day and I know those Focals will sing a sweet song! wink.gif

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It's a much better use of the space, that's for sure, it is just going to cost quite a bit to move all of that around. It's a shame you couldn't have had that moved when building the house.

Yeah, the builder had a 14 day limit after which changes to customizations were not accepted (although we had plenty of time to customize before finalizing with signature). Although the idea for moving the hvac and bathroom came well after that, so I'd probably still be facing the same challenge even without the threshold. The plumber is coming in a few weeks to do his thing though....I'm supposed to be demolishing the bathroom this week, but I'm afraid I'll crack a pipe and flood the place. Might just ask the plumber to handle the fixture removal, while I do the structural demo (wall/ceiling).
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post #643 of 1185 Old 05-18-2014, 07:37 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm still on the fence about doing a pit for the first row. Looking at Big's Swizzle Stick theater, I couldn't mind having the front of the room that deep. If. Did a pit, I'd still build a half-height riser for the second row so I could use it for acoustical purposes. Might just rent a jackhammer, buy some heavy-duty shovels, and go to work.
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post #644 of 1185 Old 05-19-2014, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post

Mike, your memory amazes me! I did indeed consider another solution! This one involved using the Oppo as the sole pre/pro for the music room and the theater, with separate external eq's for each room. Craig's room is mind-blowing and is what I consider a benchmark for home theater performance. I haven't heard yours yet, but I will one day and I know those Focals will sing a sweet song! wink.gif
You have no idea tongue.gif. I watch a a lot of shows and movies with my dad. I am always coming up with lines from just about everything we watch. But not just main lines, but what he calls through away lines. So yea, I have a pretty good memory. Now the LS 10, that is almost the same as the 20i right? Is the only difference the fact that the 20 has Dirac live and the 10 has a parametric EQ? I mean, there looks to be other differences but that seems to be one of the big ones. Do you have another EQ option or are you just going to use the parametric EQ in the LS10.

Plus, we will work something out for you stop by at some point. Still can't wait to see you yours continue yours move along.

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post #645 of 1185 Old 05-19-2014, 07:09 AM
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The plumber is coming in a few weeks to do his thing though....I'm supposed to be demolishing the bathroom this week, but I'm afraid I'll crack a pipe and flood the place. Might just ask the plumber to handle the fixture removal, while I do the structural demo (wall/ceiling).

Wow so this isn't just conceptual... you are actually doing it... and to think initially you were unsure if you could afford soundproofing! HAH! Brolic's grasp often exceeds his reach!

Cost aside, this design makes a lot more sense, you had a lot of wasted space in your original plan, and that aside, the scale was not befitting the plans you had. Of course, now you have room for normal subs too.... so are you going to open up the space under the stairs from the other side now? MORE STORAGE! More storage is always good, you will always run out of storage space in a house!

I think the decision to axe the 2 channel room for a super-special theater is the way to go. I know some people were really in favor of a different 2 channel listening space, but with the money you will put into your theater, it really is the place you should be listening to anything. If you really want to have independent 2 channel listening, you could always put an extra set of fronts behind the screen and make that a second zone for different 2 channel speakers. My speakers are tuned for surround to be sure, but listening to music in there is a pleasure and I wouldn't want to do it anywhere else!

As for the pit... you could do a pit, but then you would need no riser, so this would lower all of the seating positions in the room and give the entire room the feel of a higher ceiling vs a riser. This would give more clearance for the projector and also make it so your screen can be lower on the wall (For a proper viewing angle) but it will cost more, and will make a hell of a mess. The biggest issue you will have is that you don't have a walk out basement. So you can't just drive a bobcat down there and dig a pit, it would have to be done with a shovel. That is a LOT of work, and will be a lot more complicated. Do you have pictures of your house while it was under construction? It would be very helpful to know where all of the under-foundation pipes go.
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post #646 of 1185 Old 05-19-2014, 07:50 AM
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The pit would go in the area with the current bathroom, so you know there are drain pipes in/under he slab. Removing the debris a bucket at a time up the walk out stairs will be fun. You could probably hire a few guest workers as laborers. You will need a dumpster or two. Making sure your foundation remains intact is really important as is determining if there are any potential water table issues.

By the time you get ready to do this it might be July/August so you know it will be hot sweaty work.

I imagine you could get a cement company to rent a pumper truck to get the new concrete into the space.
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post #647 of 1185 Old 05-19-2014, 08:22 AM
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Brolic love your youtube videos but have you upgraded that flip camera yet? I used to turn my headphones right up just to hear you!

 

Looking forward to the outcome of this home theatre you have come a long way man!!

 

all the best.

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post #648 of 1185 Old 05-19-2014, 08:22 AM
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Beast - at the highest point underneath your stairs....is there room for a 36" door? If so, I can post a proposed layout for you to look at if you'd like. No pit necessary!


EDIT - And in the "lobby" area just outside your theater, what is that door to the left? Is that door real? If so, what does it go to, the outside?
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post #649 of 1185 Old 05-19-2014, 09:29 AM - Thread Starter
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You have no idea tongue.gif. I watch a a lot of shows and movies with my dad. I am always coming up with lines from just about everything we watch. But not just main lines, but what he calls through away lines. So yea, I have a pretty good memory. Now the LS 10, that is almost the same as the 20i right? Is the only difference the fact that the 20 has Dirac live and the 10 has a parametric EQ? I mean, there looks to be other differences but that seems to be one of the big ones. Do you have another EQ option or are you just going to use the parametric EQ in the LS10.

Plus, we will work something out for you stop by at some point. Still can't wait to see you yours continue yours move along.

Yup--the LS-10 is  very close to the RS20i, just without Dirac, which  I wouldn't use anyway.  Having used auto-room correction for years, I've always had to tweak afterwards.  So, I'm leaning toward the direction of getting a very capable external equalizer and tweaking the heck out of the room.  My research leads me to believe that this route nets much better results than auto-room correction.  Of course, the DSP must be very high quality, otherwise the effort is moot!

 

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Brolic love your youtube videos but have you upgraded that flip camera yet? I used to turn my headphones right up just to hear you!

 

Looking forward to the outcome of this home theatre you have come a long way man!!

 

all the best.

Greetings Mr. Earp!  Absolutely--I upgraded my camera to an obscenely expensive Sony 1080p camera.  i've ben using it for the Beast Unleashed Video Series. If you're having trouble hearing me, others may be as well.  I'll be sure to speak up.

 

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Wow so this isn't just conceptual... you are actually doing it... and to think initially you were unsure if you could afford soundproofing! HAH! Brolic's grasp often exceeds his reach!

Cost aside, this design makes a lot more sense, you had a lot of wasted space in your original plan, and that aside, the scale was not befitting the plans you had. Of course, now you have room for normal subs too.... so are you going to open up the space under the stairs from the other side now? MORE STORAGE! More storage is always good, you will always run out of storage space in a house!

I think the decision to axe the 2 channel room for a super-special theater is the way to go. I know some people were really in favor of a different 2 channel listening space, but with the money you will put into your theater, it really is the place you should be listening to anything. If you really want to have independent 2 channel listening, you could always put an extra set of fronts behind the screen and make that a second zone for different 2 channel speakers. My speakers are tuned for surround to be sure, but listening to music in there is a pleasure and I wouldn't want to do it anywhere else!

As for the pit... you could do a pit, but then you would need no riser, so this would lower all of the seating positions in the room and give the entire room the feel of a higher ceiling vs a riser. This would give more clearance for the projector and also make it so your screen can be lower on the wall (For a proper viewing angle) but it will cost more, and will make a hell of a mess. The biggest issue you will have is that you don't have a walk out basement. So you can't just drive a bobcat down there and dig a pit, it would have to be done with a shovel. That is a LOT of work, and will be a lot more complicated. Do you have pictures of your house while it was under construction? It would be very helpful to know where all of the under-foundation pipes go.

Yeah man, it’s going down! Man, if I didn’t need to furnish the place and account for my spending to my darling wife, I would have done this a while ago. Believe me—my wife and I have had some very strong discussion over this topic of moving the bathroom and mechanicals. She thinks it’s a good idea, but wants to completely furnish the whole house first (we sold most of our furniture before the move)) I told her that BIG (Jeff) isn’t going to just wait around forever for us to furnish the place, as demand for him is high--so I need to do this now while he’s available on this project. She understood that part (we both work in a profession where schedules and resource availability are often at odds) and it was enough to get the green light. The pit is attractive from a functional standpoint, but reading Big’s post and thinking about what it would entail for a walk-up basement as you pointed out make me think it’s just not really worth the effort. Hmmm—now that you mention it—I could use the new sump-pump access door to get under the stairs and store a bunch of stuff. Lord knows we’ve got many a bin and box that we haven’t touched yet for unpacking. It’s amazing—once you unpack everything you need, everything else gets forgotten.

 

Here’s a pic of the bathroom area back when it was just studs and pipe:

 

 

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The pit would go in the area with the current bathroom, so you know there are drain pipes in/under he slab. Removing the debris a bucket at a time up the walk out stairs will be fun. You could probably hire a few guest workers as laborers. You will need a dumpster or two. Making sure your foundation remains intact is really important as is determining if there are any potential water table issues.

By the time you get ready to do this it might be July/August so you know it will be hot sweaty work.

I imagine you could get a cement company to rent a pumper truck to get the new concrete into the space.

As you mention all of this, I remember a conversation I had with someone a while back regarding underground plumbing.  I’m not sure I want to open up that box that Pandora is trying to give me.  I was thinking about the labor costs (as I don’t have the time to do this myself) and I couldn’t pay for all that time.  I’m OK with the 8-foot ceilings, I just wouldn’t have minded 10 or 12-foot ceilings, but I’m prepared to abandon that idea right now—unless I flip the room around and enter the theater to the right or left of the screen itself…a possibility, but I’m not sure that I’d want to enter the room and view the seats, unless i give just as much attention to the rear of the theater as we will to the front of the theater....

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Beast - at the highest point underneath your stairs....is there room for a 36" door? If so, I can post a proposed layout for you to look at if you'd like. No pit necessary!


EDIT - And in the "lobby" area just outside your theater, what is that door to the left? Is that door real? If so, what does it go to, the outside?

Greetings Tim, at the highest point underneath the stairs, there is, unfortunately, a sump pump.  We recently closed off the door, which was originally on the theater-side, and built a doorway on the unfinished storage side.  I say “we’ but ‘twas BIG who built it.  I just used the nail gun on a doorpost or two.  reminded me of the Spike Gun in F.E.A.R. (Any 2005 gamers out there?  anyone?)

 

That door to the left in the lobby is directly to a set of stairs leading to the back yard. I’m tempted to feed the deer so I can watch them eat, but from what I hear, they tend to eat  everything else, and my wife might have my kneecaps shot off if ruin the new shrubbery/flower plan that we are working on with our landscaper.

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post #650 of 1185 Old 05-19-2014, 09:36 AM
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Yup--the LS-10 is  very close to the RS20i, just without Dirac, which  I wouldn't use anyway.  Having used auto-room correction for years, I've always had to tweak afterwards.  So, I'm leaning toward the direction of getting a very capable external equalizer and tweaking the heck out of the room.  My research leads me to believe that this route nets much bette results than auto-room correction.  Of course, the DSP must be very high quality, otherwise the effor tis moot!
Got you. I knew of at least one guy who used an external high end EQ for hos room. I am sure you have an external EQ in mind. And I think I read where other people and installers like to go that route as well.

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post #651 of 1185 Old 05-19-2014, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Soundproofing materials....all if them, from green glue to clips to door seals:
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post #652 of 1185 Old 05-19-2014, 04:07 PM
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I'm still on the fence about doing a pit for the first row. Looking at Big's Swizzle Stick theater, I couldn't mind having the front of the room that deep. If. Did a pit, I'd still build a half-height riser for the second row so I could use it for acoustical purposes. Might just rent a jackhammer, buy some heavy-duty shovels, and go to work.

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post #653 of 1185 Old 05-20-2014, 08:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Im my search for DSP (although I already have my eye on one) I discovered that the Dolby Lake processors are now the Lab Gruppen LM44. You need two units to equal the Dolby Lake 8x8 dsp.

Interesting.....that's an expensive route that I'm not taking, but I wanted to share, in case anyone was wondering what happened to the lake processors. Right now, QSC or Xilica seem to ne the top runners.
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post #654 of 1185 Old 05-20-2014, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Didnt factor in design re-work into the cost of moving the mechanicals...it's now officially out of logical reach. Any investment this size should be netting me some sort of income (rental suite, etc.) But for a theater, sunk costs are gone forever. The ROI is sentimentality, but I can't invest sentiment meaningfully. I am declaring myself locked into the original space....final answer.
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post #655 of 1185 Old 05-20-2014, 09:05 AM
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I was able to get the QSC DSP922az processors from B stock through soundbroker.com. Saved a chunk (about 40%).
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post #656 of 1185 Old 05-20-2014, 09:16 AM
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Didnt factor in design re-work into the cost of moving the mechanicals...it's now officially out of logical reach. Any investment this size should be netting me some sort of income (rental suite, etc.) But for a theater, sunk costs are gone forever. The ROI is sentimentality, but I can't invest sentiment meaningfully. I am declaring myself locked into the original space....final answer.

I figured. I was applauding the new layout but based on your original cost concerns I was baffled that you would go that route. It would be a really expensive undertaking. It's unfortunate that the ideal layout is out of financial reach, but you are making the right choice. Based on the investment required, it would make more sense to just move again than to re-arrange the whole basement layout, and that seems silly to me.

Basement layout was my primary factor in choosing a house both times I moved. If I saw poles in the wrong places I excluded it from consideration. On my other house I had them move the bathroom rough-ins. On my latest house half the basement was unfinished and there was an excellent space to use with minimal work. When we purchased our last house, we saw an absolutely beautiful house right on the water on the top of the hill overlooking the river. It was gorgeous. Top of the line kitchen remodel too that would have cost over $50k by itself, perfectly manicured lawn and landscaping. The only real negative? The entire basement was poles. There wasn't even a place you could put a pool table, let alone a theater. If it was something we wanted, we would have to excavate. The house was $200k less then the one we purchased, so we definitely considered it, but paying for something outside of a mortgage is MUCH MUCH more difficult and in the end we selected the house we are in. It had twice as much land, but no water view, the yard was crappy (all weeds) but the house itself had a better layout, much more parking and better privacy, and a huge basement space. Decisions, decisions.
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post #657 of 1185 Old 05-20-2014, 09:40 AM
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Im my search for DSP (although I already have my eye on one) I discovered that the Dolby Lake processors are now the Lab Gruppen LM44. You need two units to equal the Dolby Lake 8x8 dsp.

Interesting.....that's an expensive route that I'm not taking, but I wanted to share, in case anyone was wondering what happened to the lake processors. Right now, QSC or Xilica seem to ne the top runners.
I used a QSC basic eq that Mark S setup aid in EQ'ing the SubMersive in my room. This was before I had any other room correction at all. It did it's job well but it was too complicated for me. But I know that QSC makes some pretty good stuff. Plus, I know of a system that has a Lake EQ as well. But those are probably beyond my means and I think that what I have for EQ is good enough for me in my room. But since your preamp won't have it built in, I see why you are going the external route.

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post #658 of 1185 Old 05-20-2014, 09:43 AM - Thread Starter
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I was able to get the QSC DSP922az processors from B stock through soundbroker.com. Saved a chunk (about 40%).

Thanks for that site....i'll be sure to try it out to see what I can find.
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I figured. I was applauding the new layout but based on your original cost concerns I was baffled that you would go that route. It would be a really expensive undertaking. It's unfortunate that the ideal layout is out of financial reach, but you are making the right choice. Based on the investment required, it would make more sense to just move again than to re-arrange the whole basement layout, and that seems silly to me.

Basement layout was my primary factor in choosing a house both times I moved. If I saw poles in the wrong places I excluded it from consideration. On my other house I had them move the bathroom rough-ins. On my latest house half the basement was unfinished and there was an excellent space to use with minimal work. When we purchased our last house, we saw an absolutely beautiful house right on the water on the top of the hill overlooking the river. It was gorgeous. Top of the line kitchen remodel too that would have cost over $50k by itself, perfectly manicured lawn and landscaping. The only real negative? The entire basement was poles. There wasn't even a place you could put a pool table, let alone a theater. If it was something we wanted, we would have to excavate. The house was $200k less then the one we purchased, so we definitely considered it, but paying for something outside of a mortgage is MUCH MUCH more difficult and in the end we selected the house we are in. It had twice as much land, but no water view, the yard was crappy (all weeds) but the house itself had a better layout, much more parking and better privacy, and a huge basement space. Decisions, decisions.

Well, it's not out of financial reach...but I need a better reason to spend that amount of money . I paid for a layout just last week and it just seems senseless to pay for a brand new layout this week because I changed my mind, ya know? I lost almost 2 grand Werth PMI with nothing to show for it before we parted ways, so I can't lose another cent on this theater. I'll have the ideal space for my family and i(one row of five); however, I won't have the space I would have wanted to host large gatherings. All in all, Nyal confirms that we will get reference quality sound in this room, but the treatment plan will be more extensive. That's some journey you guys had in your house search, but it worked out!
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post #659 of 1185 Old 05-20-2014, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post

I used a QSC basic eq that Mark S setup aid in EQ'ing the SubMersive in my room. This was before I had any other room correction at all. It did it's job well but it was too complicated for me. But I know that QSC makes some pretty good stuff. Plus, I know of a system that has a Lake EQ as well. But those are probably beyond my means and I think that what I have for EQ is good enough for me in my room. But since your preamp won't have it built in, I see why you are going the external route.

Few people are lucky enough to have "Magic Mark" set up a QSC processor in their room. Kudos Mike!
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post #660 of 1185 Old 05-20-2014, 10:00 AM
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Few people are lucky enough to have "Magic Mark" set up a QSC processor in their room. Kudos Mike!
Well, I don't have it any more. I traded it for the upgraded HP amp because he needed a QSC for another install. It was soon after that I realized that a the mother of all peaks at around 45Hz that was making my sub go crazy. So I had to get abother EQ to deal with the peak. I ended up with the Velodyne SMS-1 to tame that peak and all was good again. But it was great having Mark setup the EQ. The room has changed so much since then. But I know that QSC is top quality gear. I am sure which ever company you go with, it will be great.

I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I'm all out of bubblegum .
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