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post #961 of 1412 Old 06-24-2014, 06:21 PM
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So if I want flat response to 8hz you are saying I need how many layers ?

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post #962 of 1412 Old 06-24-2014, 07:17 PM
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So if I want flat response to 8hz you are saying I need how many layers ?
okay so - transparent is a little bit of an overstatement. You can still have lots of super low end extension and room gain while bleeding energy through the walls. If you want to totally contain 8Hz at 120dB, you need more than anything you can build yourself, IMO. Lots of concrete would be a good start (lots - measured in feet, I suspect). That would be an interesting question for the DIY bass crowd: can anyone with sub-20Hz bass contain it to their theater? The answer will be "no," but maybe some feeling for what can be contained can be gained. Actually, ask Vik - since he has three layers of 5/8" DW with green glue hanging on clips and channel. Fall Frenzy, Curve Frenzy, Man of Steel theater (You pick) - BIGmouthinDC hits the road again - destination Columbus, Indiana
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post #963 of 1412 Old 06-25-2014, 04:20 AM
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I could be wrong but I thought I read that adding a third layer was actually a "bad" thing to do. That it somehow made the overall soundproofing not as effective somehow when you add more than two layers. Again, this was a long time ago and accept that I might be wrong about it but I would ask Ted for sure what he thinks. Ted posts on here all the time so you could probably send him a PM. He won't steer you wrong. I was thinking about doing a partial GG for some of my finished walls and he talked me out of it for various reasons so he is not just looking to sell you stuff just to sell it. Just think about it that's all.

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post #964 of 1412 Old 06-25-2014, 05:54 AM
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Mike - just to quickly explain and let the thread get back on topic - the problem with more that two layers only comes in when there is more than one air gap within the partition. The air gaps allow each "leaf" to behave as a resonant unit (like a spring) and assembling more than one dramatically changes the overall resonant behavior. In a nutshell, when the partition resonates transmission of energy is very high. When there are multiple masses (wall leaves) there are multiple resonances. This video shows a simple example where all the masses and links are the same. When the masses and air cavities are not the same the behavior is less predictable.

Below the primary resonance frequency transmission is fairly high. At the resonant frequency transmission is very high. Above the resonant frequency transmission is very low. If you have multiple resonances (due to having multiple masses and air cavities) you have multiple frequencies with high transmission. This is the much discussed "triple leaf effect." http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/...e-leaf-effect/
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post #965 of 1412 Old 06-25-2014, 05:59 AM
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Thanks. Did not mean to derail . It's just something that I thought I remembered reading. I defer to people who know more then I do when it comes to sound proofing so thanks for that. It just seems like you have to be more diligent in how you implement a system with three layers?

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post #966 of 1412 Old 06-25-2014, 06:01 AM
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No I agree with what Fred said and I think I recall ted white saying that too. Basically the third layer is adding mass which lowers the resonant freq- but the improvement adding the third layer isn't as profound as when you add the second. Midrange and top end performance is fine but as the frequency gets lower it becomes harder to contain because of the energy and size of the waves.

I don't think realistically you would contain (or should expect to contain) 8hz at 120db. That's just crazy bass crazy loud and consumer homes simply are not built in a manner conducive to accommodate containing it.

If I understood some of the things I read a room inside a room is actually a lot more effective that a third layer of dry wall. Walls decoupled of coarse. The sound waves lose a lot of energy when they must pass from one wall travel through air or gap space between walls and then through the second wall. The passing through the gap reduces the energy, where as triple layers doesn't do as well for that. So double layers room in room construction with a normal single layer construction for the outer room would be a lot more effective.

The example I saw given was imagine one of those toy telephones kids would make with a soup can on each end connected with a rope. You yell I to one can and the person on the other end can hear in that can up to their ears. Now imagine someone cut the rope connecting them. Still works good? Nope. Double walls are like cutting that rope.

From a cost standpoint a framed wall isn't super expensive either. I'll probably do double walls in mind because I have the space to sacrifice. But budget is a problem.

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post #967 of 1412 Old 06-25-2014, 06:14 AM
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I just saw this posted in The DIY audio forum thread BigmouthinDC started about deigning an Atmos speaker but it works well for my post above.

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Originally Posted by zuluwalker View Post


Cut the rope.

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post #968 of 1412 Old 06-25-2014, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post
okay so - transparent is a little bit of an overstatement. You can still have lots of super low end extension and room gain while bleeding energy through the walls. If you want to totally contain 8Hz at 120dB, you need more than anything you can build yourself, IMO. Lots of concrete would be a good start (lots - measured in feet, I suspect). That would be an interesting question for the DIY bass crowd: can anyone with sub-20Hz bass contain it to their theater? The answer will be "no," but maybe some feeling for what can be contained can be gained. Actually, ask Vik - since he has three layers of 5/8" DW with green glue hanging on clips and channel. Fall Frenzy, Curve Frenzy, Man of Steel theater (You pick) - BIGmouthinDC hits the road again - destination Columbus, Indiana
Containing it is one thing. Getting the bass to sound good in the room is another. In other words a 6' thick wall of solid concrete for floor and ceiling might contain it, but it will make the job of having good bass in the room harder. These are like conflicting goals.

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post #969 of 1412 Old 06-25-2014, 09:46 AM
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Containing it is one thing. Getting the bass to sound good in the room is another. In other words a 6' thick wall of solid concrete for floor and ceiling might contain it, but it will make the job of having good bass in the room harder. These are like conflicting goals.
Indeed they are conflicting goals. Funny thing is on few projects recently I've been using materials typically specced for sound isolation purposes to improve acoustics within the room. Case in point: using hat channel and clips with a single layer of 1/2" Quietrock 500 (two 1/4" layers with GG). Works as a very nice bass absorber

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post #970 of 1412 Old 06-25-2014, 09:50 AM
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Windows are the best bass traps. Open it and the bass goes right out.

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post #971 of 1412 Old 06-25-2014, 10:23 AM - Thread Starter
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I've just realized that had I known about AVS when I was in grad school, I probably would have flunked both tracks. Seriously, I wouldn't be able to get ANY research with AVS just a click away...

But on to the subject of the third drywall layer.....After giving it some thought, I am going to stick with triple layers. I had an extensive discussion with Ted about my audio requirements--he recommended triple layers on clips\channel w/ gg. It's best to stick with that recommendation, since he had the full understanding of my requirements when he gave that recommendation. But the last twenty posts reinforce my suspicion that the returns do diminish drastically with the third layer for most users. But...but...I am a bass-head....and not just that....I'm a reference-level bass head. I have a JRiver category JUST for Bass Demonstration material! So, any help with isolating bass frequencies is moreeee than welcome.
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post #972 of 1412 Old 06-25-2014, 10:30 AM
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Well if Ted said to go with three, then that's what you should do. By doing that you are also getting a free boost in SPL for your system. That was something I realized after I just put a solid core door in my room. By doing a triple layer with the GG, your SPL will be higher in the room. I can't wait for the next video.

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post #973 of 1412 Old 06-25-2014, 10:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post
Indeed they are conflicting goals. Funny thing is on few projects recently I've been using materials typically specced for sound isolation purposes to improve acoustics within the room. Case in point: using hat channel and clips with a single layer of 1/2" Quietrock 500 (two 1/4" layers with GG). Works as a very nice bass absorber
Ah, very interesting! Will we be experimenting with drywall\green glue-based traps when the time for Acoustic Treatment Design comes? Very interesting, indeed!
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post #974 of 1412 Old 06-25-2014, 10:56 AM
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I've just realized that had I known about AVS when I was in grad school, I probably would have flunked both tracks. Seriously, I wouldn't be able to get ANY research with AVS just a click away...

But on to the subject of the third drywall layer.....After giving it some thought, I am going to stick with triple layers. I had an extensive discussion with Ted about my audio requirements--he recommended triple layers on clips\channel w/ gg. It's best to stick with that recommendation, since he had the full understanding of my requirements when he gave that recommendation. But the last twenty posts reinforce my suspicion that the returns do diminish drastically with the third layer for most users. But...but...I am a bass-head....and not just that....I'm a reference-level bass head. I have a JRiver category JUST for Bass Demonstration material! So, any help with isolating bass frequencies is moreeee than welcome.
Well if you can swing it.. swing away!

At no point was anyone suggesting 2 layers was as good or better than 3 layers. This is a place you won't want to go back and re-do later if you get it wrong. If you can swing the cost of an extra layer of DW and some GG up front then there isn't much reason not to do it other than "value". But if the third layers get's you more what you really want then that is "value" in my opinion even if it costs you more.

My house has a noise floor of about 35db with the appliances off. I have a quiet neigborhood, I am second to last house on dead end street. There is no traffic. No planes overhead most of the time, and if they are they are way up in the sky. I don't have construction going, or big trucks driving around near my house. My neighbors are all quiet. The worst I need to contend with is a lawn mower, and let's be realistic it doesn't run more than an hour or so once a week. Aside from that it's crickets at night outside, and birds in the morning. My theater is above a 2 car garage that is seperated from the house with a two story breezway/mudroom and the attic space or any of the joists of my new construction don't directly couple or connect to any of the construction or walls of the main house. The kids rooms will be entirely on the other side as far away as possible from my theater, and even my wife and I bedroom has some space and rooms in between. I also won't share heating or cooling system or duct work. I thought really hard about 3 layers myself but for my needs and with my budget I decided I really just can't (or shouldn't). It's extra cost, extra work, and I wasn't sure I needed it. I think you are different though. Your design will require a bit more than mine given it's location and the size, and the kind of bass you want.

For me the priorities were different and at first I was really confused at "what is soundproofing" because it can either mean:

(A) Keeping sound from leaving the theater and bothering people
or
(B) Keeping sound out of the theater and bothering me while watching a movie.

These are very different. For me it was and is nearly 100% about keeping the sound from entering the theater and keeping my noise floor low so I can enjoy movies and music to the fullest extent possible and experience the full dynamic range. This also benefits in that I can watch a movie under reference volume (which I will do) and still enjoy a decent dynamic range. I want to be able to hear when actors whisper on screen without needing to turn on subtitles. If you noise floor is too loud this just isn't possible under reference listening volumes, and above reference volume is where the problem of too much noise from the theater presents itself the most too. But I think I decided that given my reasonable expectation and requirements for only moderate sound proofing results, and that my design already has a few elements going in it's favor that a basement build will not, two layers was "enough" for me.

At first I was specing three layers but the cost was insane and I wasn't making the differentiation between my real goal (low noise floor) from the less important goal (keeping sound in the theater). If I was trying to keep sound in the theater I would probably do 3 layers. My 8-10 year refresh I probably will add another layer

Do the third layer if you can swing it. No one ever regrets later when they make a decision to have something better. Once the check cashes and you are sitting in your theater blasting bass a year or two from now you will be happy.

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post #975 of 1412 Old 06-25-2014, 03:11 PM
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I live at the end of a cul-de-sac. We are the only full time resident on the whole street (5 houses). My neighbors houses are in front of my house, not the side, since we have the end of the street. One neighbor comes down 3 or 4 weekends a year. Between the other neighbor is a vacant wooded lot that we own. On nearly three sides of me is lake. Hear an occasional boat, no cars or trucks. Crickets at night are the loudest noise we hear and only when outside. On a Saturday, I bet I could place my speakers outside and crank them to 120db and I doubt anyone would complain.
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post #976 of 1412 Old 06-25-2014, 03:48 PM
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I live at the end of a cul-de-sac. We are the only full time resident on the whole street (5 houses). My neighbors houses are in front of my house, not the side, since we have the end of the street. One neighbor comes down 3 or 4 weekends a year. Between the other neighbor is a vacant wooded lot that we own. On nearly three sides of me is lake. Hear an occasional boat, no cars or trucks. Crickets at night are the loudest noise we hear and only when outside. On a Saturday, I bet I could place my speakers outside and crank them to 120db and I doubt anyone would complain.

That sounds really nice! I would love to live a little bit further away from the city, but I would hate to drive so far just to go to the store. how far away is the grocery store from your house?

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post #977 of 1412 Old 06-25-2014, 03:54 PM
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Matt, I think that you said your subs were top secret and if you told me you would have to kill me, but what are your goals for bass response?

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post #978 of 1412 Old 06-25-2014, 05:35 PM
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post #979 of 1412 Old 06-26-2014, 04:18 AM
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Matt, I think that you said your subs were top secret and if you told me you would have to kill me, but what are your goals for bass response?
He told me the same thing . I am sure it will be an epic system. I can imagine what it might be like though because I have seen some custom jobs that go to the extreme. I have seen one not shown on this site though that was custom and insane.

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post #980 of 1412 Old 06-26-2014, 05:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Heh Heh Heh.......

It'll be the end of bass as we know it.......
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post #981 of 1412 Old 06-26-2014, 05:24 AM
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Heh Heh Heh.......

It'll be the end of bass as we know it.......
I think Popalock may have something to say about that
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post #982 of 1412 Old 06-26-2014, 05:31 AM
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Heh Heh Heh.......

It'll be the end of bass as we know it.......
Give me a teaser. Ported? Horn? sealed? Or IB?

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post #983 of 1412 Old 06-26-2014, 05:32 AM
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The most insane bass system I have read about, besides Popalock, who's system is incredible in it's own right is one that I read about on Electronic house. It was a system that was designed by Keith Yates. It has 14 JL subwoofers plus a custom sub that had 4 15in and 4 14in drivers and 10,000 watts that went down to 9hz. I can't even imagine the potential SPL of that system .

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post #984 of 1412 Old 06-26-2014, 06:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Give me a teaser. Ported? Horn? sealed? Or IB?
The one hint: A chauffeur battles exhaustion behind the wheel whilst becoming entangled with one's reclusive prime augmentation.
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post #985 of 1412 Old 06-26-2014, 06:51 AM
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I think Popalock may have something to say about that
That guy is insane! What a demo that was, but I can't imagine using that for anything more than a demo. It's just too much. I love my bass but when I walk out of a room after 10 minutes and my brain feels like oatmeal, It's safe to say I wouldn't put that in my house! Still, it was quite an experience!
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post #986 of 1412 Old 06-26-2014, 07:35 AM
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That guy is insane! What a demo that was, but I can't imagine using that for anything more than a demo. It's just too much. I love my bass but when I walk out of a room after 10 minutes and my brain feels like oatmeal, It's safe to say I wouldn't put that in my house! Still, it was quite an experience!
LOL!!! this is true ...i am sure your Seatons are very mild mannered
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LOL!!! this is true ...i am sure your Seatons are very mild mannered
They are great, and Brolic knows all too well how they are. Two of them is perfect for HT use, but it's not even comparable against something like Popalock's setup
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post #988 of 1412 Old 06-26-2014, 10:09 AM
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They are great, and Brolic knows all too well how they are. Two of them is perfect for HT use, but it's not even comparable against something like Popalock's setup
That video of the GTG that was at his place for a bit when they played BHD was simply insane I am happy with a single HP in my small room. I think Pops room is not much bigger then mine, but it might be open, and he has all that bass to play with. It's sick I tell ya. SICK. That's why I can't wait to see what madness Matt comes up with.

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post #989 of 1412 Old 06-26-2014, 01:15 PM
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The one hint: A chauffeur battles exhaustion behind the wheel whilst becoming entangled with one's reclusive prime augmentation.
I'm going to take this statement to mean that you are building a Double Bass Array like FoLLgoTT's build using Eighteen 18" drivers in the front baffle wall. Or duplicate the Powersoft D-Cell504 "Wall of Bass" which is flat to 7Hz.

Now that's Brolic....
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post #990 of 1412 Old 06-26-2014, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
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lol guys, I am definitely leaning toward the audiophile side of bass, with great sounding (notice I didn't say ruler flat) measurements and very even distribution. The aforementioned bass projects are truly impressive, but they are far from my style--even if some may measure well (I'm not familiar with their measurements). Two solid subwoofers can fill a huge room with great bass. Then, evening out that bass is critical. Additional subwoofers at the sides can also even out response even better, but it must be planned and treated for. I'm taking a scientific approach to this upcoming bass implementation. Four bass sources...maybe six total (plus my game-changing Crowson Motion Actuators), for even, great sounding bass coverage across both rows with the main LP as the priority.
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