The Beast, Unleashed - Page 46 - AVS Forum
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post #1351 of 1705 Old 08-20-2014, 05:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ClemsonJeeper View Post
None of that looks any fun.
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Nothing about that looks easy or fun.
Level of Fun: -76.2

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But everything about that looks like a lot of money!
Level of Expenditure: TOO MUCH!!!

Jerry's guys popped up at 9am this morning, and wrapped up the job at 7pm tonight. They had to break up the concrete for the new sump-pit and the pathway for the water conduit between old and new sump pits, dig the dirt and hoist it up the stairs and to their van, re-route the underground pipes to send water to the new location, attach to pit, re-install the sump pump, put dirt back into the original put and over newly routed conduits to new pump, pat dirt down to compact levels with "patting tool?", pour concrete, level it, float it, done! Oh, well, I also had them re-route pipes behind the duct toward the front of the room to enable flexibility with soffit building.

Final resting place:


As you can see, there are 26" cut-outs on either side of the sump area, but they are not close across from each other. The door space in the picture above will see three studs added to the left exsiting jack stud, and will extend about 36" before meeting another three jack studs.

Future entryway into theater (after we nearly double its width)


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Whens the next episode coming Beast?? its been too long! cant wait!
Hey man, the next episode is hopefully coming next week after we install the new header and finish the framing. I really appreciate you asking, as that series is near and dear to my heart.
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post #1352 of 1705 Old 08-20-2014, 07:10 PM
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did you ever figure out why the sump motor kept tripping the breaker?
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post #1353 of 1705 Old 08-20-2014, 07:48 PM - Thread Starter
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did you ever figure out why the sump motor kept tripping the breaker?
Yup...the builder came out and took a look under the warranty...the motor somehow went bad.
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post #1354 of 1705 Old 08-21-2014, 05:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Preliminary circuitry diagram:



I hope I'm not missing anything.
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post #1355 of 1705 Old 08-22-2014, 05:09 AM
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Might as well just make them all 20s. Don't forget room outlets and lighting
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post #1356 of 1705 Old 08-22-2014, 05:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post
Preliminary circuitry diagram:



I hope I'm not missing anything.
I have been working hard on my set up over the last few years but when I see what you are planning I'm blown away. Really excited to see the finished product.
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post #1357 of 1705 Old 08-22-2014, 05:35 AM
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we need to review your existing panel and inventory the number of available slots.

You will also need a double slot for the anticipated HVAC.
you might want a slot for outdoor circuits with your planned backyard deck etc.
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post #1358 of 1705 Old 08-22-2014, 06:06 AM
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Lol. Matt you might as well run a 2 or 4 gauge from you main and put a dedicated 200 amp breaker box right in your AV closet... Lmao. Probably easier actually.

That's a lot of circuits!

I'm relocating, replacing, and reusing my existing breaker box for my remodel/theater. It just makes sense in my case; where the power enters the house/meter is on the totally opposite side of house in basement. The left side. My garage/mud room/porch/breezeway/loft/theater are being added onto to the opposite side of the house; the right side. Since the runs are so far, and the existing box I have now is too small it makes sense to relocate that in the garage and run that side of house/new rooms from there. It saves running tons of wires far, which makes costs reasonable since I avoid the cost in long wire runs.

I'm not sure where your panel is, or if it's close? If it is then your probably ok, although judging by the number and size of your plans you might need bigger panel or second panel. If you end up needing a sub panel, might as well put it in the av closet. It will make expansion easier later on. And, make running all those dedicated circuits easier.

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post #1359 of 1705 Old 08-22-2014, 06:55 AM
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Wow that's a lot of circuits..

Maybe you could do better with less?

I have 6 Seaton subs powered by 3 1000W amps,

12 speakers total:

2500W into each LCR,
750W each into the front heights
725W each into the sides rears
425W each into the side and rear heights

That is spread for amps is 3 20 Amp circuits and 1 20 amp circuit for PROJ and sources.

So, four (4) 20 amp circuits total for subs, speakers, amps and source and projector.

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #1360 of 1705 Old 08-22-2014, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post
Might as well just make them all 20s. Don't forget room outlets and lighting
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post
we need to review your existing panel and inventory the number of available slots.

You will also need a double slot for the anticipated HVAC.
you might want a slot for outdoor circuits with your planned backyard deck etc.
I should have about 24 unused slots--probably more across the two panels. I have a picture of the panels in this thread, but now that we can't view all photos in a thread anymore since the vBulletin change, I'll need to re-count them. This evening, I'll go down and count them, so we know exactly what we're working with. Yeah, might as well make 'em all 20's Why waste money on the 14/2 roll. I'll get a small roll just for rounding out the room outlets and lighting.

DEFINITELY on the outdoor circuits. I'm a vegan, but i still want a grill so make grilled corn, tomatoes, vegan franks, and so on and so forth. I also want to light up the deck once we build it, so I'll definitely be taking that under consideration as well.

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I have been working hard on my set up over the last few years but when I see what you are planning I'm blown away. Really excited to see the finished product.
Thanks Ediddy! (It's bad-boy baby, diddy, '96, I thought I told y'all that we won't stop) <--lolol, sorry--I HAD to do the p.diddy joke. It'll take a while to wrap this one up completely, but when it's complete, I'm hoping for an experience that lets me sit back and say: This was so worth the time downtime, as well as the money and effort involved. I do get a little discouraged sometimes when I think of how much work remains on the project, but I'm tackling this the way I tackle life: one milestone at a time while planning for six milestones ahead.

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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
Lol. Matt you might as well run a 2 or 4 gauge from you main and put a dedicated 200 amp breaker box right in your AV closet... Lmao. Probably easier actually.

That's a lot of circuits!

I'm relocating, replacing, and reusing my existing breaker box for my remodel/theater. It just makes sense in my case; where the power enters the house/meter is on the totally opposite side of house in basement. The left side. My garage/mud room/porch/breezeway/loft/theater are being added onto to the opposite side of the house; the right side. Since the runs are so far, and the existing box I have now is too small it makes sense to relocate that in the garage and run that side of house/new rooms from there. It saves running tons of wires far, which makes costs reasonable since I avoid the cost in long wire runs.

I'm not sure where your panel is, or if it's close? If it is then your probably ok, although judging by the number and size of your plans you might need bigger panel or second panel. If you end up needing a sub panel, might as well put it in the av closet. It will make expansion easier later on. And, make running all those dedicated circuits easier.
Interestingly enough, it would be really easy and conventient for me to put the rack in the :lobby: area. 1) I could place it within 6 feet of my electrical panels, 2) It gives me an opportunity to load up material before going into the theater (as opposed to going into the theater, and out of the back door to load material), 3) It would pretty darn cool to see all the blue lights shining in the lobby area.

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Originally Posted by thebland View Post
Wow that's a lot of circuits..

Maybe you could do better with less?

I have 6 Seaton subs powered by 3 1000W amps,

12 speakers total:

2500W into each LCR,
750W each into the front heights
725W each into the sides rears
425W each into the side and rear heights

That is spread for amps is 3 20 Amp circuits and 1 20 amp circuit for PROJ and sources.

So, four (4) 20 amp circuits total for subs, speakers, amps and source and projector.
3 1000w modules for those six behemoths? Did Mark modify his rack amp design? That's pretty interesting. I remember the standard one houses one or two of the 4kw amps, with half power availability until second subwoofer initiates power draw (pure genius!) I need to give him a call to ask him about that, and what the possibilities will be for my room. I'll be using four submersives and two :something else: subwoofers w/ 24" drivers, so my subwoofer amplification requirements will be very similar to yours. If I can get away with 3000 amps total for six subs, I'll be ok with that! lol.

I actually don't mind running the circuits (I had electricians come out to the house to do an assessment as to whether I'd need a brand new 200-300amp service run to the house [gulp!]--thankfully, they actually talked me out of it). That being said, I'm on the fence about pro amps. I'm a music-loving audiophile and have been using consumer-grade amplifiers for years...I've always had this notion that pro amps are built for clubs and parties, and might encounter difficulty matching the finesse required by the speakers folks like us use. That notion is currently changing. I've been doing my research and I'm coming across some pro amps that seem to be of sufficient calibur to drive high-performing speakers and sound good doing it. The problem is, some of them cost more than consumer amps (i.e. your Questeds amps come in at about $900/channel, which I can't afford unless I make VP this year[fingers crossed])

All in all, if I could find a really great (i.e. industry-leading, or close to it) pro amp series for reasonable prices, I might go all pro amps, and sell my monoblocks for a wicked steal. But....I guess I need to keep researching before I make any decisions' I'll probably still wire the Theater Suite (developing concept--don't laugh) like Romex is going out of business, but only use what I end up actually needing.
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post #1361 of 1705 Old 08-22-2014, 12:56 PM
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Make sure all is properly grounded... and remember, the more circuits, the greater problems with ground loops if you develop one.

Sounds like one heck of a build!

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #1362 of 1705 Old 08-22-2014, 03:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post
Make sure all is properly grounded... and remember, the more circuits, the greater problems with ground loops if you develop one.

Sounds like one heck of a build!
Gracias! I've dealt with a ground loop hum before...that was no fun. Worst time I ever had with my last system. Had to get a Jensen Transformer product, which got rid of 70% of the hum volume...Hmmm...now I'm slowly creeping into paranoia...
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post #1363 of 1705 Old 08-22-2014, 04:47 PM
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Gracias! I've dealt with a ground loop hum before...that was no fun. Worst time I ever had with my last system. Had to get a Jensen Transformer product, which got rid of 70% of the hum volume...Hmmm...now I'm slowly creeping into paranoia...
I can't imagine you'll have more power needs than I do, simplify!! I'll bet you will do well on few circuits. You can always add if need be.
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post #1364 of 1705 Old 08-23-2014, 07:13 AM
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Run your own panel and step down to it, all inside the equipment room and dedicated for theater. Problem solved.

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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #1365 of 1705 Old 08-23-2014, 07:57 AM
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Run your own panel and step down to it, all inside the equipment room and dedicated for theater. Problem solved.
+1. I ran a separate panel to mytheater. Theater only. 16 circuits. Make sure it is properly grounded with good grounding rod(s). If you are using isolation transformers (I do), place them remotely as they can buzz. I feel like I am revisiting my initial build from years back with all these worries.
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post #1366 of 1705 Old 08-24-2014, 01:04 AM
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I ran a panel to the room next to my equipment room and my office. Made it a lot easier to manage and run wiring.

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Denon 3808ci | PS3 80Gb | Harmony One | Toshiba XA2 | Samsung 61" PN60E6500EF | HTPC with HDMI

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post #1367 of 1705 Old 08-24-2014, 04:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Cool Structural Modification

Good progress today. We widened the doorway and built most of the new soffit.

You'd never guess the work it takes to widen a doorway on a load-bearing wall:

Started with this:




Then, build temporary support wall across the load borne by the section of the wall being changed (in my case, three joists)



Had to provide support for the top of the stairway as well, as that also rested squarely on the wall



Another Angle



Insert New Header: Two 1 3/4" x 11 7/8" LVL beams nailed together to form one serious 46 1/2" header




Insert three additional jack-studs on each side to support the header



Now, we can get a 32" door in there



And here's the before and after shot:



Pictures of the new soffit are coming as soon as I find the strength to go downstairs to take them.

Also, The Beast, Unleashed [Episode 5] will be posted early this week (probably tomorrow).
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post #1368 of 1705 Old 08-24-2014, 05:32 PM
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Maybe I missed it, but what does a wider do get you? Great progress BTW, can't wait for the next vid.

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post #1369 of 1705 Old 08-24-2014, 06:26 PM
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it then becomes the only door exit required for the theater space, The only way for the water heater and furnace equipment to leave and enter is through that door, it was originally 24 inches and the water heater is 27 inches in diameter.
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post #1370 of 1705 Old 08-24-2014, 07:19 PM
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Got you. So the size of the objects you were moving required it. I am glad that it was able to be addressed.

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post #1371 of 1705 Old 08-24-2014, 07:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Also, it would be quite uncomfortable to use a two-foot wide door for entry/exit, although if this were the only concern, I still would have left it as-is. But the need to move equipment in and out of the theater definitely pushed me over the edge to do this.
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post #1372 of 1705 Old 08-25-2014, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post
Wow that's a lot of circuits..

Maybe you could do better with less?

I have 6 Seaton subs powered by 3 1000W amps,

12 speakers total:

2500W into each LCR,
750W each into the front heights
725W each into the sides rears
425W each into the side and rear heights

That is spread for amps is 3 20 Amp circuits and 1 20 amp circuit for PROJ and sources.

So, four (4) 20 amp circuits total for subs, speakers, amps and source and projector.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post
3 1000w modules for those six behemoths? Did Mark modify his rack amp design? That's pretty interesting. I remember the standard one houses one or two of the 4kw amps, with half power availability until second subwoofer initiates power draw (pure genius!) I need to give him a call to ask him about that, and what the possibilities will be for my room. I'll be using four submersives and two :something else: subwoofers w/ 24" drivers, so my subwoofer amplification requirements will be very similar to yours. If I can get away with 3000 amps total for six subs, I'll be ok with that! lol.
I think when Jeff posted he might have confused that there are 3 amplifier channels but each of the 12 drivers gets 1000W. So that's 12,000W of potential.

Quote:
I actually don't mind running the circuits (I had electricians come out to the house to do an assessment as to whether I'd need a brand new 200-300amp service run to the house [gulp!]--thankfully, they actually talked me out of it).
Good to hear your electrician talked you out of it. Most don't realize that incoming service sizing is only loosely tied to the total number of breakers connected, as it would be tremendously wasteful of materials and expense when you never have continuous draw to all things at once. As a good rule of thumb you can figure multiple speaker channels to use 1/10th to 1/4 maximum rated audio power and subwoofers to use 1/6-1/2 maximum rated audio power. Which end of the range you are at depends on how hard you are likely to push things in your room relative to the system limits and how overboard you plan to go with the wiring and extra headroom.

IMO, a comfortable figure I recommend is about 1/6th speaker power + 1/3rd subwoofer power. This can change a little where height or surround speakers can be figured at 1/10th or less in the context of a full system. Even with 1/6th & 1/3rd rating, thebland's huge system comes in at less than 5200W total and could easily be powered by 3 x 20A circuits.

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post #1373 of 1705 Old 08-25-2014, 02:58 PM
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I have 4 20 amp circuits as recommended by Mr. Seaton: One for the LCR''s; One for the front two subs; one for the rear subs; and one for the surrounds (quite over done I suspect). I also think I have a 20 amp for all of the front end gear including the PJ.

Should I add Atmos/Auro heights, I would probably run them from the surround circuit.

Matt: I am no electrician but I think you could run the Country of Dubai from the list of circuits you provided !!

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post #1374 of 1705 Old 08-26-2014, 06:21 AM
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The benefit of a dedicated breaker box in the room isn't just line hum or noise, it's that you can easily add more plugs /outlets later (IF) you actually need them for pennies on dollar. The cost of a $20 breaker switch , some Romex wire, and an outlet /box is next to nothing in the grand scheme if things. Even if you are not DIY I guess the labor cost is minimized too.
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post #1375 of 1705 Old 08-26-2014, 06:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
Run your own panel and step down to it, all inside the equipment room and dedicated for theater. Problem solved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post
+1. I ran a separate panel to mytheater. Theater only. 16 circuits. Make sure it is properly grounded with good grounding rod(s). If you are using isolation transformers (I do), place them remotely as they can buzz. I feel like I am revisiting my initial build from years back with all these worries.
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Originally Posted by Dizzy49 View Post
I ran a panel to the room next to my equipment room and my office. Made it a lot easier to manage and run wiring.
If I put the equipment in that small room to the side, then I'd defintiely run a sub-panel. But, if I end up placing the rack in the Theater Lobby...then the gear will be less than 6ft away from the panels. It's all about location, but I definitely agree--a sub-panel is the way to go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
I think when Jeff posted he might have confused that there are 3 amplifier channels but each of the 12 drivers gets 1000W. So that's 12,000W of potential.

Good to hear your electrician talked you out of it. Most don't realize that incoming service sizing is only loosely tied to the total number of breakers connected, as it would be tremendously wasteful of materials and expense when you never have continuous draw to all things at once. As a good rule of thumb you can figure multiple speaker channels to use 1/10th to 1/4 maximum rated audio power and subwoofers to use 1/6-1/2 maximum rated audio power. Which end of the range you are at depends on how hard you are likely to push things in your room relative to the system limits and how overboard you plan to go with the wiring and extra headroom.

IMO, a comfortable figure I recommend is about 1/6th speaker power + 1/3rd subwoofer power. This can change a little where height or surround speakers can be figured at 1/10th or less in the context of a full system. Even with 1/6th & 1/3rd rating, thebland's huge system comes in at less than 5200W total and could easily be powered by 3 x 20A circuits.
Ah, thanks for that clarification on thebland's subwoofer amp setup! Ah, so 1\6th speaker plus 1/3 subwoofer power? Yikes--I never would have thought about those proportions. I'm still slightly considering pro amps for the regular non-sub speakers, but there are so many of them out there, it's impossible to know which will sound "consumer grade" without auditioning a slew of them. I know that would cut my circuit requirement in half though.

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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I have 4 20 amp circuits as recommended by Mr. Seaton: One for the LCR''s; One for the front two subs; one for the rear subs; and one for the surrounds (quite over done I suspect). I also think I have a 20 amp for all of the front end gear including the PJ.

Should I add Atmos/Auro heights, I would probably run them from the surround circuit.

Matt: I am no electrician but I think you could run the Country of Dubai from the list of circuits you provided !!
LOL, the high circuitry demand is based mostly on the reuirements of the XPR amplifier series. Each amplifier requires a 20 amp circuit (electricians told me that's becasue they actual use a full 15 amps of power at peak, so they're required to use 20 amp circuits to give 5 amps of headroom). Maybe I should find some icepower amps to power the speakers like the Catalysts are powered and call it a day.

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The benefit of a dedicated breaker box in the room isn't just line hum or noise, it's that you can easily add more plugs /outlets later (IF) you actually need them for pennies on dollar. The cost of a $20 breaker switch , some Romex wire, and an outlet /box is next to nothing in the grand scheme if things. Even if you are not DIY I guess the labor cost is minimized too.
Yeah, If there's one thing I've learned about myself since getting into this hobby, it's that I'm always changing something or adding somethiing. Flexibility is key, and is the gear isn't located close to the panels (50/50 chance), a sub-panel is a definite direction.
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post #1376 of 1705 Old 08-26-2014, 07:22 AM
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It sounds like the panel isn't far away so that might not be the problem! In my case it's way far away, so the second panel is required.

But, part of my making this recommendation is that I am operating under the general assumption that judging by your crazy layout breaker chart your current circuit panel doesn't have enough spare/empty capacity so you'd need a second sub panel anyways, in that case locate it in the room!

A cheap 100 amp panel is enough I think, if it's dedicated. No need to go silly, as explained the total amount of all the breakers can way exceed the main, you'll likely never draw all of them at max to flip the main.

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post #1377 of 1705 Old 08-26-2014, 11:36 AM
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It cost me like 600$ to get a 100A subpanel pulled off my main 200A panel.

My main panel was in a finished area of my basement, and was pretty much full (only a couple slots open), so made the decision easy to get them to install it in the unfinished area (which happened to butt up against the future HT area), so made it really easy for me to pull my own wiring for the HT. Plus plenty of room in it too if I ever decide to add more at a later time.

If your main panel is in an area that will be finished, think about the future if you ever decide to add anything else (back yard pool, entertainment area, bar outside, etc) you'll have to tear into a finished wall in order to add circuits.
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post #1378 of 1705 Old 08-26-2014, 12:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
It sounds like the panel isn't far away so that might not be the problem! In my case it's way far away, so the second panel is required.

But, part of my making this recommendation is that I am operating under the general assumption that judging by your crazy layout breaker chart your current circuit panel doesn't have enough spare/empty capacity so you'd need a second sub panel anyways, in that case locate it in the room!

A cheap 100 amp panel is enough I think, if it's dedicated. No need to go silly, as explained the total amount of all the breakers can way exceed the main, you'll likely never draw all of them at max to flip the main.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClemsonJeeper View Post
It cost me like 600$ to get a 100A subpanel pulled off my main 200A panel.

My main panel was in a finished area of my basement, and was pretty much full (only a couple slots open), so made the decision easy to get them to install it in the unfinished area (which happened to butt up against the future HT area), so made it really easy for me to pull my own wiring for the HT. Plus plenty of room in it too if I ever decide to add more at a later time.

If your main panel is in an area that will be finished, think about the future if you ever decide to add anything else (back yard pool, entertainment area, bar outside, etc) you'll have to tear into a finished wall in order to add circuits.

They must have used some super-industrial electrical panels for my house...I have a whopping 32 available breaker slots across two 150amp panels. I'm going to do a sketch-up draft later this week on the two possible rack locations. The rack locations determines a lot, from how.much romex I need, to the need for a sub-panel- amd the layout of the HT lobby.
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post #1379 of 1705 Old 08-26-2014, 01:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Just realized that I didn't post this here. As of this morning, Episode 5 is live!

Episode 5: Things That Go "Sump" In the Night
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post #1380 of 1705 Old 08-26-2014, 03:01 PM
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Just realized that I didn't post this here. As of this morning, Episode 5 is live!

Episode 5: Things That Go "Sump" In the Night
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcYP...j8sXR3sSWpXs9A
wow very exciting to watch i loved the stress tests
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