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post #1531 of 1919 Old 09-17-2014, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post
Nyal, I just hung one of each in the last two weeks too, have you ever seen them side by side playing identical 1080P content? I had to ask the people around me to confirm what projectors we were looking at, everyone around me was astonished. Comments were "why would Sony show that? Strategically it would cut into the sales of the 600ES if the buyer had no immediate intention of providing it 4K material". Granted it was not 100% identical but it was so close that it would be hard to dig into your pockets for the difference.

No, have not seen side by side but I've had the two in my showroom for long periods of time. I am very familiar with the two products. The 600ES to my eyes at least is noticeably superior, and in many ways. Were the PJs you installed calibrated and the panel alignment adjusted? Certainly the panel alignment on the 600ES I've noticed to be off more than on the 55ES however the 55ES greyscale is normally more out of whack than the 600ES. Both are very good on color.

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post #1532 of 1919 Old 09-17-2014, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
Aside from the number of channels in the piece (up to 24 for the Datasat, up to 34 for the Trinnov), I'm not sure what the EXTRA $20k-$28k buys over the total cost of a 9.1.6 preamp (when they are released 1Q 2015) with Xilica, Mini-DSP or QSC DSPs to control all the channels. More wiring and a slightly harder setup since you would be dealing with 2+ boxes instead of one.....but that's one heck of an upcharge.
Well you need the processor to have the ability to decode to the number of channels in your theater. It can't be done in a DSP post processor, unless you are running channels in parallel, which kind of screws with the object based decoding...


Also KICK ASS sound quality with every channel Dirac Live or Trinnov tuned.

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post #1533 of 1919 Old 09-17-2014, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
Nyal,

Do you have any experience with these?

http://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series
No, not much. I did talk with MiniDSP at CEDIA though and will be carrying these soon as they've recently implemented a dealer program. It's only a two channel Dirac implementation, but apparently they are using the full fat 24/96 version.


I'm not sure if there has been any chatter about the forthcoming NanoAVR with Dirac Live? $549 for a two HDMI in, one out box running 8 channels of Dirac Live. http://www.minidsp.com/ht-series/nanoavr-dl
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post #1534 of 1919 Old 09-17-2014, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post
Wow, now that is REALLY steep me. I can't believe that there won't be any sub $10,000 options out there at some point. I mean I know the new Integra has Atmos but I don't know of any lower priced options that have Auro as well. Plus we all need a good room correction system. If they don't come out with lower priced options, it is my opinion that these formats will die very fast.
The forthcoming Acurus ACT4 will be around $6k with Atmos and 11 channel (e.g. for 7 bed, 4 ceiling) with 3 sub outs. http://www.acurusav.com/act-4-specifications/. Probably only parametric EQ though (which is fine and good).

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post #1535 of 1919 Old 09-18-2014, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post
No, have not seen side by side but I've had the two in my showroom for long periods of time. I am very familiar with the two products. The 600ES to my eyes at least is noticeably superior, and in many ways. Were the PJs you installed calibrated and the panel alignment adjusted? Certainly the panel alignment on the 600ES I've noticed to be off more than on the 55ES however the 55ES greyscale is normally more out of whack than the 600ES. Both are very good on color.
Sony showed them side by side at CEDIA each shining on identical 180 diag 1.3 gain screens. They also showed the 660ES against a JVC and an Epson which they beat by a margin. Not sure if they had the firmware update on the Epson.
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post #1536 of 1919 Old 09-18-2014, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post
Well you need the processor to have the ability to decode to the number of channels in your theater. It can't be done in a DSP post processor, unless you are running channels in parallel, which kind of screws with the object based decoding...


Also KICK ASS sound quality with every channel Dirac Live or Trinnov tuned.
Right, that's why I said a 9.1.6 preamp and the QSC DSP. The preamp outputs cascade to the DSP for equalization, time alignment, FIR, etc. I'm saying if you are at $3k - $5k for a preamp and another $6k-$8k for outboard DSP, that's still tens of thousands less than the Datasat or especially the Trinnov with the same channel count. Don't get me wrong, I'd love either one, but I need to somehow get to 95% of the sound quality for a quarter the spend....
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post #1537 of 1919 Old 09-18-2014, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post
The forthcoming Acurus ACT4 will be around $6k with Atmos and 11 channel (e.g. for 7 bed, 4 ceiling) with 3 sub outs. http://www.acurusav.com/act-4-specifications/. Probably only parametric EQ though (which is fine and good).
I did not know that that they were still in business. I remember reading about them years ago. At least that's a start. I guess if you had to, you could get an outboard eq for it the parametric eq doesn't quite cut it.

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post #1538 of 1919 Old 09-18-2014, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
Right, that's why I said a 9.1.6 preamp and the QSC DSP. The preamp outputs cascade to the DSP for equalization, time alignment, FIR, etc. I'm saying if you are at $3k - $5k for a preamp and another $6k-$8k for outboard DSP, that's still tens of thousands less than the Datasat or especially the Trinnov with the same channel count. Don't get me wrong, I'd love either one, but I need to somehow get to 95% of the sound quality for a quarter the spend....

From the look of things I think the market will settle on 9.1.4 as being the practical limit for 95% of AVRs and Pre-Pros. I'm not sure how many products will do 11.1.4 or 9.1.6 or other high channel count configurations.


The need to include a DSP post AVR or Pre-Pro comes from three things:
- need to manage multiple subwoofers (level, delay, EQ)
- need to decorrelate multiple surrounds
- need to EQ speakers or subs


Why does the QSC DSP cost 6-8k? Compared to say a Xilica XP series which to my knowledge has all the same functionality?


The sound quality of a $3k Jap pre-pro into a DSP via an extra D/A and A/D is not going to be close to a Datasat or Trinnov. The room correction functionality of the Datasat or Trinnov is also vastly superior to what you have available in MOST outboard DSPs (the forthcoming miniDSP NanoAVR with Dirac Live will change this). Those are the only two full range room correction technologies I would recommend to high performance room. Sure, if your room is nicely treated then they are only making maybe a 5-10% difference in the SQ of the mid and high frequencies [in the bass Dirac Live, Trinnov and a properly setup parametric EQ are equivalent IMO) but it is noticeable.

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post #1539 of 1919 Old 09-18-2014, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post
I did not know that that they were still in business. I remember reading about them years ago. At least that's a start. I guess if you had to, you could get an outboard eq for it the parametric eq doesn't quite cut it.

I'm hoping the built in EQ will be good enough. I bent the designers ear about the need for EQ at CEDIA. The processor will be built in the USA as well. If they can get the HDMI side working in a bug free way this could be a really nice piece.

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post #1540 of 1919 Old 09-18-2014, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post
Sony showed them side by side at CEDIA each shining on identical 180 diag 1.3 gain screens. They also showed the 660ES against a JVC and an Epson which they beat by a margin. Not sure if they had the firmware update on the Epson.

Yeah I saw that demo also. It wasn't really a 'controlled environment'...for example the black levels on the 600ES looked better than on the JVC, which I know is not true having also had a top tier JVC sample in the showroom.


Having said that the demo confirmed what I had already figured out about the 55ES being superior to the Epson overall and the 600ES being superior than the JVC overall.

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post #1541 of 1919 Old 09-18-2014, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post
Yeah I saw that demo also. It wasn't really a 'controlled environment'...for example the black levels on the 600ES looked better than on the JVC, which I know is not true having also had a top tier JVC sample in the showroom.


Having said that the demo confirmed what I had already figured out about the 55ES being superior to the Epson overall and the 600ES being superior than the JVC overall.
I was there also and agree with the 600es vs JVC

personally would have liked to see the firmware updated Epson side by side with the 55ES
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post #1542 of 1919 Old 09-18-2014, 01:18 PM
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[QUOTE=BIGmouthinDC;27513322They also showed the 660ES against a JVC and an Epson which they beat by a margin. Not sure if they had the firmware update on the Epson.[/QUOTE]

I saw that as well. Sony "claimed" that JVC had calibrate the X900 that was being compared. There was NO comparison. I knew that the JVC could not hold up against the Sony on a 180 inch 16 x 9 screen but color saturation, definition, clarity, AND EVEN BLACK levels were on the side of the Sony. It was not a close comparison. (And not particularly fair since the light output of the two PJ's is very different)

I am not impartial: I just upgraded from a JVC RS55 to the Sony 600ES.

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post #1543 of 1919 Old 09-18-2014, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post
I'll make sure I am there for the sub integration. Will be cool to work with Mark. I saw what he did on Jeff's theater and we have very similar working methods. I'd be comfortable doing it all myself, but it would also be awesome to learn from Mark and see how he works. I'd like to see how he approaches SPL matching subs of different output capabilities. Like I mentioned on the phone I've developed a pretty cool approach to dealing with subs of different output capabilities in terms of level balancing them to ensure smaller subs do not go into limiting before larger ones. Plus we might choose to rolloff the side subs below the areas where they are contributing to room mode cancellation (maybe <35Hz) and hand over to the big boys at the front / rear. Front / rear pair will cancel the first axial length, so it's important to play those down to that room mode frequency. I'd also like to see how close the BEM modeling I did for you on the 6 subs matches reality and if the predictions on delay and SPL per sub are accurate. The delay and level adjustments will be done in the Datasat anyway.

For anyone thinking of the Datasat, it is a fantastic piece. It's pretty complex to setup, and the Dirac Live room correction requires purchase of a $2.5k calibration kit. I attended a day's training at Datasat in LA, and it was easier for me than for most because I already know acoustic measurements and calibration very well, what with me doing room acoustic analysis, treatment design and calibration for my day job. You cannot calibrate Dirac Live on the RS20i without the calibration kit. And Dirac Live is one of the things that makes the unit really special. So really for everyone it makes sense to have a Datasat trained calibrator come and do the setup. Plus I am not sure how many Datasat calibrators there are with HAA Level II training. AFAIK there are only 25 HAA Level IIs in the whole US. And my calibration approach now goes beyond HAA Level II, with my own processes for sub integration, level matching and EQ that I've developed.
Nice plug Nyal! Now you just need to join the ranks of HAA Level III! I believe there is only one of those in the US and the entire world, so it would be nice if there was company. It's lonely up here!

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post #1544 of 1919 Old 09-19-2014, 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post
I'm hoping the built in EQ will be good enough. I bent the designers ear about the need for EQ at CEDIA. The processor will be built in the USA as well. If they can get the HDMI side working in a bug free way this could be a really nice piece.
I hope you were successful. There is currently no serious middle ground. You have Datasat at one end that with the mic kit, Auro upgrade and Atmos upgrade is north of $30,000 and then you have the Denons, etc at $3,000. I know there are some priced in the middle but none offer anything but PEQ which is better than nothing but not a serious acceptable 2014 solution.

My hope is the the Nano DSP product turns into a solution that can be used with other well engineered SSP's but that don't offer anything other than PEQ.

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post #1545 of 1919 Old 09-19-2014, 04:18 AM
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Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post
did you see them compare the 600ES to the 55 on bluray? they pretty much proved you shouldn't buy the 600 unless you plan to feed it 4K. the 55 image was that close.
The 55 is incredible. But if you sit close to the screen, the value of the 600 is VERY obvious. At much further distances, it becomes a somewhat more difficult decision. Value wise, however, no contest. Brightness was spectacular on the 55.

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post #1546 of 1919 Old 09-19-2014, 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
1,000% agreed. The best <$5,000 projectors are the Sony HW55 and the Epson 5030/6030ub.

If you have or just recently bought either of these then please... enjoy them. Let UHD mature. It's gonna be a while.
100% agree. But I thought the Sony picture was less digital looking than the Epson.

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post #1547 of 1919 Old 09-19-2014, 10:21 AM
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I hope you were successful. There is currently no serious middle ground. You have Datasat at one end that with the mic kit, Auro upgrade and Atmos upgrade is north of $30,000 and then you have the Denons, etc at $3,000. I know there are some priced in the middle but none offer anything but PEQ which is better than nothing but not a serious acceptable 2014 solution.

My hope is the the Nano DSP product turns into a solution that can be used with other well engineered SSP's but that don't offer anything other than PEQ.
PEQ is a perfectly acceptable solution in 2014 if you have a properly designed and treated room. I would say the Dirac Live makes about a 5% difference (small but noticeable) in the mid / high frequencies in my fully treated showroom. In the bass it is equivalent to PEQ. XT32 is a worse solution than PEQ in my books, because you have little control over the shape of the target curve in the mid/high frequencies.


Obviously it takes some skill to properly setup PEQ but it is a perfectly workable and acceptable and very high quality solution.

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post #1548 of 1919 Old 09-19-2014, 10:26 AM
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100% agree. But I thought the Sony picture was less digital looking than the Epson.
The EPSON had that super resolution feature on, which is easily defeated.

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post #1549 of 1919 Old 09-19-2014, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post
Sony showed them side by side at CEDIA each shining on identical 180 diag 1.3 gain screens. They also showed the 660ES against a JVC and an Epson which they beat by a margin. Not sure if they had the firmware update on the Epson.
I talked to the Sony guy that set this up at the show. All out of the box, not calibrated or setup for best performance, so a completely useless comparison in every way. He is talking about doing a controlled comparison with a level playing field and I volunteered to help as a third party control. I even said I would do the setup and calibration under the eyes of the reps in case they had questions. Guess we'll see if it happens.
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post #1550 of 1919 Old 09-19-2014, 12:03 PM
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The most telling thing for me when I got home from CEDIA and sat down to watch CAWS I had no desire to upgrade the Sony 55 - even after seeing dozens of much more expensive projectors all week
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post #1551 of 1919 Old 09-19-2014, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post
From the look of things I think the market will settle on 9.1.4 as being the practical limit for 95% of AVRs and Pre-Pros. I'm not sure how many products will do 11.1.4 or 9.1.6 or other high channel count configurations.


The need to include a DSP post AVR or Pre-Pro comes from three things:
- need to manage multiple subwoofers (level, delay, EQ)
- need to decorrelate multiple surrounds
- need to EQ speakers or subs


Why does the QSC DSP cost 6-8k? Compared to say a Xilica XP series which to my knowledge has all the same functionality?


The sound quality of a $3k Jap pre-pro into a DSP via an extra D/A and A/D is not going to be close to a Datasat or Trinnov. The room correction functionality of the Datasat or Trinnov is also vastly superior to what you have available in MOST outboard DSPs (the forthcoming miniDSP NanoAVR with Dirac Live will change this). Those are the only two full range room correction technologies I would recommend to high performance room. Sure, if your room is nicely treated then they are only making maybe a 5-10% difference in the SQ of the mid and high frequencies [in the bass Dirac Live, Trinnov and a properly setup parametric EQ are equivalent IMO) but it is noticeable.
I had heard that a reasonably priced consumer (Denon, Marantz, Anthem, etc.) 15 channel pre-amp/processors (9.1.6 or 11.1.4) should be available sometime next year. Perhaps these were 'vaporware' statements, but I'll hold out hope.

The reason the QSC or the Xilica DSP would be in the $6k to $8k range is to cover the full number of channels that would be needed. The Xilica XP series is $2k each for 8 channels, with the QSC slightly more. The 16 channel Xilica is $6600. QSC puts you around $8k for three 8 channel models. With Procella you need even more channels to handle P610 or P815 LCR integration (since each LCR counts as 2 channels), not to mention some DSP room for any balancing subs.

Functionally, the QSC and the Xilica are quite similar, with the main differences being the sampling frequency and bit depth of the floating point DSP for their standard models. The QSC Core series is about the same money as multiples of the 322ua or 922az, etc. but is expandable up to 128 channels, has audio matrix abilities, iPad integration and, like the Trinnov, does all the DSP processing through multiple processor horsepower and not a dedicated hardware DSP chip. The inputs and outputs are 24 bit, which is equivalent to the maximum bit depth of the current Bluray standard, but processing is 64 bit floating point. Only hi-res audio files would be limited by both DSPs. The QSC also has much less latency than the Xilica and is easier to program as most calibrators (including my potential calibrator) are intimately familiar with Q-Sys. Xilica...not so much.
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post #1552 of 1919 Old 09-19-2014, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
I had heard that a reasonably priced consumer (Denon, Marantz, Anthem, etc.) 15 channel pre-amp/processors (9.1.6 or 11.1.4) should be available sometime next year. Perhaps these were 'vaporware' statements, but I'll hold out hope.

The reason the QSC or the Xilica DSP would be in the $6k to $8k range is to cover the full number of channels that would be needed. The Xilica XP series is $2k each for 8 channels, with the QSC slightly more. The 16 channel Xilica is $6600. QSC puts you around $8k for three 8 channel models. With Procella you need even more channels to handle P610 or P815 LCR integration (since each LCR counts as 2 channels), not to mention some DSP room for any balancing subs.

Functionally, the QSC and the Xilica are quite similar, with the main differences being the sampling frequency and bit depth of the floating point DSP for their standard models. The QSC Core series is about the same money as multiples of the 322ua or 922az, etc. but is expandable up to 128 channels, has audio matrix abilities, iPad integration and, like the Trinnov, does all the DSP processing through multiple processor horsepower and not a dedicated hardware DSP chip. The inputs and outputs are 24 bit, which is equivalent to the maximum bit depth of the current Bluray standard, but processing is 64 bit floating point. Only hi-res audio files would be limited by both DSPs. The QSC also has much less latency than the Xilica and is easier to program as most calibrators (including my potential calibrator) are intimately familiar with Q-Sys. Xilica...not so much.

You can get a 16 channel IO Xilica for $2420, the Uno1616, however it is a 24/48 processor with 40 floating point processing. Xilica don't make their higher performance XP units (24/96) in the 8 in, 8 out configuration anymore, so if you wanted 16 inputs you'd need four XP4080s which is actually $7400, but that gives you 32 outputs also. Xilica latency is 2ms. I can't imagine the QSC is any lower. Programming these things is pretty easy, assuming you know what you are doing, regardless of whether it is QSC or Xilica. The Xilica is IP addressable, so you can VPN into it and control everything via the network, and has matrix mixing capabilities also.

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post #1553 of 1919 Old 09-19-2014, 05:25 PM
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You can get a 16 channel IO Xilica for $2420, the Uno1616, however it is a 24/48 processor with 40 floating point processing. Xilica don't make their higher performance XP units (24/96) in the 8 in, 8 out configuration anymore, so if you wanted 16 inputs you'd need four XP4080s which is actually $7400, but that gives you 32 outputs also. Xilica latency is 2ms. I can't imagine the QSC is any lower. Programming these things is pretty easy, assuming you know what you are doing, regardless of whether it is QSC or Xilica. The Xilica is IP addressable, so you can VPN into it and control everything via the network, and has matrix mixing capabilities also.
I couldn't recall why I though the QSC's latency was much faster than the Xilica's, so I looked it up again. The Xilica XP's latency is actually 1.5ms, but that's with the FIR filters 'off'. With them on, the delay extends from 2ms to 12ms depending on the number of channels. QSC's Core series is a fixed latency at 2.5ms for all channels, regardless of channel count or any processing filters, including FIR. I'll definitely need FIR filters for my side channel arrays....when I actually get to that point. *sigh*

@BrolicBeast - still thinking Datasat RS20i extended to 24 channels?
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post #1554 of 1919 Old 09-19-2014, 07:58 PM
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I couldn't recall why I though the QSC's latency was much faster than the Xilica's, so I looked it up again. The Xilica XP's latency is actually 1.5ms, but that's with the FIR filters 'off'. With them on, the delay extends from 2ms to 12ms depending on the number of channels. QSC's Core series is a fixed latency at 2.5ms for all channels, regardless of channel count or any processing filters, including FIR. I'll definitely need FIR filters for my side channel arrays....when I actually get to that point. *sigh*

@BrolicBeast - still thinking Datasat RS20i extended to 24 channels?
The XP series only has IIR not FIR filters (crossovers..EQ is IIR).


This is not directed at you but I'm interested in learning more about the planned implementation of this QSC.


Why do you need FIR filters for side channels? For decorrelation? If so how I would be interested in understanding how an FIR filter can be used for decorrelation. Does the QSC have ability to define arbitrary (custom) FIR filters and is this what they are planning to use?


One can decorrelate easier by mixing side and rear surround information together in the DSP for the additional row of side surrounds, maybe adding in a bit of phase shift, rather than faffing around with FIR filters.


I'd also be very surprised if anyone can design a FIR filter that is fixed at 2ms. I don't pretend to know a huge amount about the math of FIR but from my understanding there is an distinct (inviolable?) relationship between lowest processed frequency and the time delay (latency) of the FIR filter.

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post #1555 of 1919 Old 09-20-2014, 07:03 AM
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The XP series only has IIR not FIR filters (crossovers..EQ is IIR).

This is not directed at you but I'm interested in learning more about the planned implementation of this QSC.

Why do you need FIR filters for side channels? For decorrelation? If so how I would be interested in understanding how an FIR filter can be used for decorrelation. Does the QSC have ability to define arbitrary (custom) FIR filters and is this what they are planning to use?

One can decorrelate easier by mixing side and rear surround information together in the DSP for the additional row of side surrounds, maybe adding in a bit of phase shift, rather than faffing around with FIR filters.

I'd also be very surprised if anyone can design a FIR filter that is fixed at 2ms. I don't pretend to know a huge amount about the math of FIR but from my understanding there is an distinct (inviolable?) relationship between lowest processed frequency and the time delay (latency) of the FIR filter.
It was specified by Dennis and recommended by the calibrator to address comb filtering issues from the side channel arrays, considering they would be fed the same signals. I've also heard of your proposed approach, but don't have enough experience to comment on the virtues of either method. I suppose it is the approach the calibrator is most comfortable with.

From my understanding, IIR filters are used to process frequencies less than 200 Hz and everything above this runs through FIR for these channels. The QSC has a fixed 2.5ms latency for all channels, which is one of their advantages from a calibration perspective. Again, this is feedback from DE and a couple of his calibrators from previous conversations.

Back to the original point - that once a new round of Pre-amp processors from more traditional companies is released with a higher total channel count, most of the performance of the Datasat and Trinnov can be had at a fraction of the cost. I equate the Trinnov to F1 race car development where millions can be spent to save thousandths of a second. Ultimate performance? Yes. Way beyond a good balance of price vs. performance value? Also yes. To their credit, the Trinnov guy from France did say that more affordable products will be forthcoming, but only after they have established themselves as the premium no-holds-barred brand.
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post #1556 of 1919 Old 09-20-2014, 08:14 AM
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XT32 is a worse solution than PEQ in my books, because you have little control over the shape of the target curve in the mid/high frequencies.
Not true for Audyssey Pro which has more than enough fleixibility to address mid/high frequencies. I have a modified BBC curve and a completely different high end roll off to get the best out of my system.

So we to get agree to disagree.

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post #1557 of 1919 Old 09-20-2014, 09:13 AM
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Back to the original point - that once a new round of Pre-amp processors from more traditional companies is released with a higher total channel count, most of the performance of the Datasat and Trinnov can be had at a fraction of the cost.
Absolutely. The audible differences between competent SSP's diminishes as the number of channels increases, more so in movies where your attention is focused on audio AND video. I'm not suggesting that the Datasat will not be "better" than Brand X at $4000, but Brand X will be close enough for all but the very finicky, OCD, well-to-do, got-to-have-the-best group (and that would not include me)

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post #1558 of 1919 Old 09-20-2014, 01:02 PM
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I don't disagree on the $3-4k pre-pro vs Datasat / Trinnov pre-pro argument. $3-4k gets you a very nice pre-pro, one that will competently do the job. It's easy to show a significant jump in sound quality by going to the $9k type pre-pros. It is something everyone with a well designed and acoustically optimized room will be able to hear, no problem. Are the Datasat and Trinnov worth the asking price? Well that depends on what functionality you need and what level of performance you are shooting for. The RS20i is no question the best sounding processor I've had in my showroom. It's marginally but noticeably better than an all out HTPC assault using an ExaSound E28, a Stereophile Class A DAC. That solution was significantly (and I do mean significantly) better than the Marantz 8801 and Yamaha CXA5000 I've tried out. If you are an audiophile I do not think you would be satisfied with the two channel performance of the top Japanese pre-pros, whereas with something like a Datasat or Trinnov I'm sure you would be.

Don't get me wrong, I don't just do systems with Datasats all the time (far from it). You can get very very good performance from something like the Yamaha with good speakers in a properly designed and optimized room. In terms of the knee on the price/performance curve I think that's about where it starts to become laws of diminishing returns. The returns are there they just get more and more expensive. The design (layout, proper equipment selection, low frequency optimization and acoustic treatment) are by far the most important thing to get right. After that it is speakers, then electronics. But if you have the design + speakers + acoustically optimized room in place it is easy to show audible and visible performance upgrades as you purchase higher end electronics.

On the Audysssey topic I did an interesting comparison including extensive measurements of using parametric EQ vs XT32. I just launched a new website though and some of the photos on the blog are broken for some reason. When it is fixed I will post the article URL here.

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Nyal: I made up the $4K number. Any ideas of which mfgr meets that price point or the $9K processor you referenced?

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post #1560 of 1919 Old 09-20-2014, 06:49 PM
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Nyal: I made up the $4K number. Any ideas of which mfgr meets that price point or the $9K processor you referenced?
I was talking generically about prepros, not with reference to Atmos capabilities or otherwise. I'm sure you know there's a cluster of the Jap prepros at 3-4k then a big gap to the Classe, Bryston types at 9k. Not much in the middle.
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