Soundproofing master thread - Page 37 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1081 of 1170 Old 04-25-2015, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by granroth View Post
I'd like to start from the top -- it's not physically possible to make a truly sound proof box. Rather, you are looking for a solution that reduces the transmission loss of specific frequencies at given input levels to some desired output level.

That may sound like I'm splitting hairs, but it's not. If whatever you are using to generate the noise is only outputting 50dB and you only need to attenuate it to 30dB, then quite a few solutions will be "sound proof". But if you're generating 20Hz tones at 120dB and need to get it down to 20dB... the nothing you described will come even a little bit close to being "sound proof".

So to start, what will be your input levels and what are your desired output levels?


I should have specified that I am NOT generating the "sound" - it is outside of my control, and I want a 'space' that is as free of that sound as is possible. I do not wish to attenuate it by any specific amount, other than as much as possible, without spending a fortune.
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post #1082 of 1170 Old 04-25-2015, 08:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanny04 View Post
I should have specified that I am NOT generating the "sound" - it is outside of my control, and I want a 'space' that is as free of that sound as is possible. I do not wish to attenuate it by any specific amount, other than as much as possible, without spending a fortune.
I'll admit that I cannot visualize what your enclosure looks like, so I won't directly comment on it. As for whether or not it'll work to your level of expectations -- sure, since you don't really have any set expectations. It is possible that you have some internal unvoiced expectations that are unrealistic for such a small enclosure, though. Impossible to say.

I will comment on a few of the general premises, though.

Sand works very well with low frequencies. The more, the better. It works even better than concrete, which is the typical material used for bass attenuation. It is hard to work with, though, as it is practically guaranteed to leak or spill over time. You do need a lot of it to make a very notable difference.

Putting the walls on angles will do very little for soundproofing. Angled walls can do wonders for scattering sound inside of an acoustically controlled space, but when trying to stop sound waves (especially low frequency ones), the wall will vibrate just as much as if it was perpendicular to the sound. The one benefit of an angled wall is that you may end up having notably more mass behind part of the wall and that extra mass will absolutely help. It's not likely worth doing, though.

1/2" plywood isn't as good as quite a few other sheet goods when it comes to sound control. The key is that you want it as massive as possible. In general, drywall > MDF > plywood and thicker is always better than thinner.
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post #1083 of 1170 Old 04-26-2015, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by granroth View Post
1/2 inch plywood isn't as good as quite a few other sheet goods when it comes to sound control.
and

1/2 inch plywood isn't as good as drywall when it comes to fire control. It's good as sheathing for bracing, such as with a cripple wall against earthquakes. And structurally able to screw things to the wall later.
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post #1084 of 1170 Old 04-27-2015, 06:15 AM
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Generally speaking, the best bang for the buck with insulation is the standard batts of fiberglass ("pink fluffy"). There are mild differences between the types, but not typically enough to notice or to justify the cost difference.
Is there any real benefit to the Owens Corning QuietZone® Noise Control Solutions with PureFiber® Technology?? Or is that just a bunch of marketing voodoo for the same standard pink stuff?

http://insulation.owenscorning.com/h...cts/quietzone/

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post #1085 of 1170 Old 04-27-2015, 06:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Is there any real benefit to the Owens Corning QuietZone® Noise Control Solutions with PureFiber® Technology?? Or is that just a bunch of marketing voodoo for the same standard pink stuff?

http://insulation.owenscorning.com/h...cts/quietzone/
Looks like marketing to me. They don't seem to publish any absorption coefficients that show a difference between it and the normal batts. Their listed wall assemblies also have pretty much the same rating as the tested assemblies with normal batts. They probably are the same wall assemblies since I highly doubt that Owens-Corning paid for a full suite of laboratory tested walls and then didn't publish the detailed results. When you spend that kind of money, you're going to show it off!
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post #1086 of 1170 Old 04-30-2015, 03:40 PM
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Well, that changed quickly. After explaining in more detail and showing pictures of putting actual drywall between the joists, the contractor didn't think we'd be able to do it, given how much HVAC and plumbing is running through them. No reason to only seal off half the joists, I guess.

We aren't ripping up the entire sub floor, either. So we're going to have to go with a Serenity Matt (or similar) over the sub floor and under the new floor.

So now I'm faced with the choices that I was hoping to avoid. If I'm going to be forced (by the wife, at the contractors suggestion) that our best move is to stick with a drop ceiling, can anyone recommend the best drop ceiling tiles for noise reduction? Also, what would you stuff the joists with? Roxul S&S? Or something else?

Maybe the best move is to bring in a sound specialist / home theater builder to weigh in with the contractor?

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Thanks! Spoke w our contractor, since they started demo yesterday. Explained what I wanted to accomplish, and what I thought we needed to do.

I'm leading towards Solution #4 (GreenGlue & Drywall under the subfloor) to get started. http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/...oof-a-ceiling/

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post #1087 of 1170 Old 05-01-2015, 09:30 AM
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x-ray solid slab sandwich door with lead in middle

Sharing here, this morning I went to get x-rays for my 6 month post right side complete hip operation, healing is on track.
My Titanium pieces are fusing nicely to the leg and hip bone

While in the x-ray room with the door open I noticed how heavy/massive it is, 5 hinges and all.
It's a solid slab sandwich with lead in the middle! Veneer on both sides.
Did not get the whole door profile, but these edge views show the construction, I thought neat.
I told the tech I was "into" HT stuff and would it be ok for me to rap it with my fist to see how solid it felt, she said "sure", as I was there 7:30am 1st and basically empty office. Man it was rock solid dead THUD, no resonance.
Light rap, medium rap, and pretty heavy rap all came back as a THUD.
.

This does not show the hinge side, but the door was hanging in this huge steel thick frame - much more sturdy than your typical office steel frame, makes me wonder if for the ultimate HT soundproofing effort instead of using a wood frame this should be looked at.
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post #1088 of 1170 Old 05-01-2015, 04:21 PM
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mtbdudex:
Reminds me of the Rod Gervais door -- {standard solid core door, sheet of 8 psf sheet lead, 3/4 inch plywood} -- with the lead and plywood being held back 1 inch on both sides and top for weather stripping.

[mentioned in his book 'Home Recording Studio Build it like the pros' and elsewhere]

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post #1089 of 1170 Old 05-02-2015, 10:19 AM
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Should haveexplained better perhaps.I am notgenerating any noise.There exists noisethat is not under my control.I have notmeasured, analyzed the noise.I feel itmore then I hear it.I want the insideof the box to be free of as much of the noise existing outside the box aspossible.


So, while one maymeasure the noise at XX, or whatever, I don't really care.The noise is there, I want to block as muchof it as possible.The fact that I feelit more then hear suggested to me it is mostly low frequency noise.


I hope that makemore sense.
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post #1090 of 1170 Old 05-02-2015, 10:21 AM
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I want to block noise that is not under my control

Should haveexplained better perhaps.I am notgenerating any noise. There exists noisethat is not under my control. I have notmeasured, analyzed the noise. I feel itmore then I hear it. I want the insideof the box to be free of as much of the noise existing outside the box aspossible.

So, while one maymeasure the noise at XX, or whatever, I don't really care. The noise is there, I want to block as muchof it as possible. The fact that I feelit more then hear suggested to me it is mostly low frequency noise.

I hope that makemore sense.
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post #1091 of 1170 Old 05-02-2015, 10:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
While in the x-ray room with the door open I noticed how heavy/massive it is, 5 hinges and all.
It's a solid slab sandwich with lead in the middle! Veneer on both sides.
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Originally Posted by BasementBob View Post
mtbdudex:
Reminds me of the Rod Gervais door -- {standard solid core door, sheet of 8 psf sheet lead, 3/4 inch plywood} -- with the lead and plywood being held back 1 inch on both sides and top for weather stripping.

[mentioned in his book 'Home Recording Studio Build it like the pros' and elsewhere]
That was my first thought, too. This is main part of it:



I priced out 8psf lead -- it would cost at least $500 and if ordered online, shipping would be brutal due to the 200lb weight of it.

Obviously very effective, though!

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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
This does not show the hinge side, but the door was hanging in this huge steel thick frame - much more sturdy than your typical office steel frame, makes me wonder if for the ultimate HT soundproofing effort instead of using a wood frame this should be looked at.
Interesting thought. I'd assume the steel frame was there for structural reasons rather than acoustic ones, since the door is so heavy (500lbs or more, maybe?) My intuition is that the steel frame would be mildly to notably worse from a soundproofing aspect than a wood frame.

@BasementBob , what's your thoughts on steel frames vs wood frames?
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post #1092 of 1170 Old 05-02-2015, 12:21 PM
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BasementBob: what's your thoughts on steel frames vs wood frames?
I don't recall any studies on the topic of steel vs wood door jambs (lots of studies/concerns on walls with steel studs vs wood studs). Concrete filled steel jambs can be quite strong and massive (google image 'residential vault door', and 'TankHead Blast Door' which is both massive and air tight), and might not even turn to dust due to open/close flexing.


I was looking at these the other day for something else, but I think they could hold up a door.
http://seblog.strongtie.com/wp-conte..._Frame_SMF.jpg
http://seblog.strongtie.com/wp-conte...MF-Install.jpg


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I priced out 8psf lead -- it would cost at least $500 and if ordered online, shipping would be brutal due to the 200lb weight of it
Then this post of mine here, about 2800 pound nuclear biological chemical blast doors, may be overkill from your perspective.

An amateur built the Ark. Titanic was built by professionals. Of course Noah took a little advice.

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post #1093 of 1170 Old 05-02-2015, 12:45 PM
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Interesting thought. I'd assume the steel frame was there for structural reasons rather than acoustic ones
The primary reason for steel instead of wood there would be to prevent radiation from leaving the room. Wood is biologic, and won't stop radiation.
Then there's fire prevention (many hospitals have patients that can't run a 5 minute mile when the fire alarm goes off, so fire resistant materials are used), and steel can take gurney impacts better than wood. Within limits -- I think it was a wood door with steel/lead lining for example.
And lastly, something structural to hold up the door without warping. There's probably something behind that steel to take the weight, but the steel itself won't warp with changes in moisture, and no warping means no radiation gaps
If they happen to get any acoustic benefits from structure with excessive mass, my bet is that's mostly a pleasant side effect of other concerns. X-rays aren't that noisy, compared to MRI/CT-scan.

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post #1094 of 1170 Old 05-02-2015, 11:30 PM
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The primary reason for steel instead of wood there would be to prevent radiation from leaving the room. Wood is biologic, and won't stop radiation.
Then there's fire prevention (many hospitals have patients that can't run a 5 minute mile when the fire alarm goes off, so fire resistant materials are used), and steel can take gurney impacts better than wood. Within limits -- I think it was a wood door with steel/lead lining for example.
And lastly, something structural to hold up the door without warping. There's probably something behind that steel to take the weight, but the steel itself won't warp with changes in moisture, and no warping means no radiation gaps
If they happen to get any acoustic benefits from structure with excessive mass, my bet is that's mostly a pleasant side effect of other concerns. X-rays aren't that noisy, compared to MRI/CT-scan.
he didn't suggest they use it for its acoustical properties, but that we can use the properties of such heavy doors for their acoustical properties. Or copy the properties with other materials.

FYI, X-rays travels in straight lines, so these doors don't have airtight seals, the lead just have to overlap the lead in the doorframe which overlaps with the lead or concrete in the wall.
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post #1095 of 1170 Old 05-05-2015, 07:05 AM
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Hello!
A contractor insulated my outer walls so I can save energy during the winter using GreenFiber material (not entirely sure if this was the same exact product branding but the material looked identical). I asked him if it’s possible to insulate my ceiling using the same material to prevent the impact noise from the footsteps of my upstairs neighbors and he said that it’s possible and I will reach the desired outcome. I wanted to check if anybody had experience with this kind of insulation and whether it will actually solve my problem or impact noise from upstairs?
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post #1096 of 1170 Old 05-07-2015, 12:56 PM
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I have a sound proof (decoupled DW+GG+DW+GG+DW) basement HT room in the basement, and a 1st floor dining room situated above it. I'm trying to keep the LFE which comes from some intense movie scenes from bothering those in the dining room above as part of a new flooring (for the dining room) project
On the soundproofing company's website it has 3 install options - one option has the serenity mat + plywood + GG + plywood below the new flooring.
For floating floor installs - it just recommends serenity mat + new flooring (i.e. w/o the plywood/GG sandwich).
Wouldn't the plywood/GG sandwich provide significant LFE blockage - i.e. not including it with the floating floor option - would result in significantly less blockage (unless the serenity mat itself is enough)? (I'd ask Ted, but figured I'd post here to discuss the theory , until I'm ready to buy )
Also , if I take a piece of the serenity mat, and stand above it - would that provide a test even before laying down the new floating flooring
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post #1097 of 1170 Old 05-07-2015, 03:53 PM
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cgott42, we've established way long ago that stiffness works rather well on low frequencies. Plywood alone isn't really stiff. I'd go thick hardwood, then some sound absorbing mats and then laminate floor or whatever. That's if you already have good enough high frequency sound transmission loss. If you possibly could, laying a new concrete floor (like an inch or two thick in all) would be very effective to stop low frequencies. Could have some nice heating (and even cooling) cables in it and ceramic tiles or stone tiles.
Lighter options, like just mats and GG and whatnot, is not effective for stopping low frequencies. Some here would argue it does stop low frequencies, but anything you put there stops a little bit, that does not make it good.
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post #1098 of 1170 Old 05-08-2015, 12:05 AM
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1. Can Serenity Mat be used with carpet on a concrete floor?

2. Is carpet + serenity mat enough for soundproofing a concrete basement floor in a low ht basement(concrete to joist ht of 7'6")?

3. In a "room within room" construction, do you need double stud wall in addition to the exterior concrete wall or one interior wall separated from the outer exterior wall is sufficient?

Any advice is appreciated. Thanks!!

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post #1099 of 1170 Old 05-08-2015, 07:52 AM
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cgott42, we've established way long ago that stiffness works rather well on low frequencies. Plywood alone isn't really stiff. I'd go thick hardwood, then some sound absorbing mats and then laminate floor or whatever. That's if you already have good enough high frequency sound transmission loss. If you possibly could, laying a new concrete floor (like an inch or two thick in all) would be very effective to stop low frequencies. Could have some nice heating (and even cooling) cables in it and ceramic tiles or stone tiles.
Lighter options, like just mats and GG and whatnot, is not effective for stopping low frequencies. Some here would argue it does stop low frequencies, but anything you put there stops a little bit, that does not make it good.
Yep, my high freq. stoppage is great, just the low freq shaking of the floor above the HT. My real Q is what's the minimum nec. to achieve my max. requirement. So before having a structural engineer come to see what the joists can handle, and then adding concrete, multiple layers of plywood (would OSB be better?) + GG or whatever it can handle- I want to first simply lay down the serenity mat, and then a single section of hardwood (or just a 4x8 plywood sheet)- (i.e. do I fee any rumbling on the floor below where I'm standing)- I want to know if this is a fair test of what the final effect would be or if it wont' be an accurate representation until the full hardwood flooring is put down?

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post #1100 of 1170 Old 05-08-2015, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
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1. Can Serenity Mat be used with carpet on a concrete floor?

2. Is carpet + serenity mat enough for soundproofing a concrete basement floor in a low ht basement(concrete to joist ht of 7'6")?

3. In a "room within room" construction, do you need double stud wall in addition to the exterior concrete wall or one interior wall separated from the outer exterior wall is sufficient?

Any advice is appreciated. Thanks!!
1. Best ask Soundproofing Company directly about that.

2. Asking if ANY solution is is "enough" is a meaningless question without specifying your precise requirements for soundproofing.

3. "room within a room" only refers to two decoupled parallel walls, so if you already have an exterior concrete wall, then that's one of the two walls. Just build a new decoupled in inside of that.
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post #1101 of 1170 Old 05-08-2015, 09:33 AM - Thread Starter
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cgott42, we've established way long ago that stiffness works rather well on low frequencies. Plywood alone isn't really stiff.
Well... no. Whereas the mass law doesn't really hold true at frequencies below the resonant frequency and stiffness starts to matter more, it's the INVERSE of stiffness that matters more. That is, you want "floppy mass" for the low frequencies. Or just have huge amounts of mass.

As far as I've been able to tell (or have been told by the acoustics pros), the only way to effectively stop frequencies below the resonant frequency is to use lots of concrete or sand. The direct question of if it's possible to get effective transmission loss of ULF in a "stick frame" residential home got an answer of "no" (essentially).
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post #1102 of 1170 Old 05-08-2015, 05:12 PM
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1. Best ask Soundproofing Company directly about that.

2. Asking if ANY solution is is "enough" is a meaningless question without specifying your precise requirements for soundproofing.

3. "room within a room" only refers to two decoupled parallel walls, so if you already have an exterior concrete wall, then that's one of the two walls. Just build a new decoupled in inside of that.

Thanks for your reply. What would be a decent option for soundproofing a concrete floor in a low height basement?
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post #1103 of 1170 Old 05-08-2015, 08:52 PM
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Thanks for your reply. What would be a decent option for soundproofing a concrete floor in a low height basement?
Why do you think you need to soundproof your concrete floor in a basement?
I have also considered this but it looks like most people don't bother.
Either just carpet and under pad or a subfloor for comfort.
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post #1104 of 1170 Old 05-08-2015, 09:57 PM
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Why do you think you need to soundproof your concrete floor in a basement?
I have also considered this but it looks like most people don't bother.
Either just carpet and under pad or a subfloor for comfort.

I have been reading this forum and the articles on soundproofing company. Everyone seem to agree that soundproofing HT is all or none project hence wondering if leaving concrete floor untreated would defeat the whole process of soundproofing rest of the walls and ceiling.
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post #1105 of 1170 Old 05-09-2015, 03:58 PM
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I imagine the reason you soundproof the floor would be to prevent echoes, not much else. And also not having a cold floor all the time.
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post #1106 of 1170 Old 05-09-2015, 08:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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I have been reading this forum and the articles on soundproofing company. Everyone seem to agree that soundproofing HT is all or none project hence wondering if leaving concrete floor untreated would defeat the whole process of soundproofing rest of the walls and ceiling.
This is a common misconception of soundproofing. It is NOT all or none -- if it were, then pretty much all soundproofing efforts in this forum would be useless, since none of us have the budget or space to truly go "all in". It's all compromises based on needs, budget, and space.

What is true is that if you have specific soundproofing requirements and you implement a solution that should fit those requirements, then you MUST do it properly and sweat the details or else you may not get the performance that you think you're going to get. An example would be if you needed a 65dB attenuation of the STC frequencies and so you build a wall with a STC 65 rating... but then have a door with a STC 20 rating. The end result is that you would not get STC 65 out of that wall, but rather some value between 20 and 65.

Now... I keep stressing the point the crucial first step of any soundproofing effort is first identifying what frequencies you want to stop and how much attenuation do you need. If you don't know what you want to target, then any "solution" is just throwing darts at a board and hoping that it'll somehow work.

So on to the idea of leaving a concrete floor untreated. See above -- it depends on what you are trying to do, and what the other solutions in place are. If you are in a basement and are not a bass-head, then treating the floor probably won't give you any benefits that would matter. If you are on shared floor with living space and will have notable amounts of bass, then yeah, treating the floors might have a place in your solution.
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post #1107 of 1170 Old 05-11-2015, 07:03 PM
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Sound Proofing is far from all or nothing. When designing the sound proofing aspects for my home theater I first came to the realization unless I had tens of thousands of dollars to spend on the home theater I would have to make compromises. I probably ended up spending about 25k on mine including components. Not a lot compared to what others spend but still a good chunk of cash, I also hired a contractor to do most of the build. Anyways, I think as long as you follow the basics of what everyone says on these forums you will have a really well sound proofed room. Will you be able to listen at reference levels and not hear anything outside the room or upstairs, no... But most people can deal with some sound leakage. If you can't then step one, hire a professional and prepare to spend over 50k at least. So for most people aim for that 80-90% solution and you will be happy. Again do the basics, isolate all walls and ceilings with clips and channels or double studs where necessary. Do double drywall and green glue, fill all cavities with insulation, caulk seams where possible. I think those alone get you to the 80-90% solution. After that you get diminishing returns, for every dollar more you spend you get a little less sound proofing. In my case I can listen at sound levels higher than I personally care to listen at and can barely hear anything upstairs. If I listen at a loud, but acceptable level, then you can't hear anything upstairs. You can check out my build thread to see what I did. But like I said, for the majority of the people here, realize you don't need to do everything for a great sound proofed room, you will overwhelm yourself if you think you need to. Aim for that 80-90% if your on a low to normal budget like most people. If you have money to burn and want that 100% solution you need to get a professional in my opinion.
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post #1108 of 1170 Old 05-12-2015, 10:11 AM
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My contractor put a vertical PVC sewer pipe in the new construction 2 x 4 wall directly behind the prime listening position. The couch is to be flush against that wall. He says dry wall alone will eliminate sound. I dont buy it and am concerned that I will hear the water whenever its running. Moving the pipe or the seating isnt an option. And there is very little room between pipe and drywall. Any suggeations for thin material that can fit between pipe and drywall and minimize sound?

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post #1109 of 1170 Old 05-12-2015, 04:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougF View Post
My contractor put a vertical PVC sewer pipe in the new construction 2 x 4 wall directly behind the prime listening position. The couch is to be flush against that wall. He says dry wall alone will eliminate sound. I dont buy it and am concerned that I will hear the water whenever its running. Moving the pipe or the seating isnt an option. And there is very little room between pipe and drywall. Any suggeations for thin material that can fit between pipe and drywall and minimize sound?
First, you are absolutely right that one sheet of drywall is NOT stop the noise from a pipe like that. We have a pex water pipe in the walls of one our bedrooms and it's definitely audible when water is flowing. The pipe is in a fiberglass insulated section and covered with one sheet of 1/2" drywall.

So what can you do? The only thing I can think of that might work is adding more mass plus damping. At a minimum, two layers of 5/8" Type X drywall with Green Glue or QuietGlue Pro in between. A third layer might be justified.

I hesitate giving any real predictions, though, since I'm not aware of any published tests solving this particular problem.

You may consider just having people not flush anything while you're watching a movie...
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post #1110 of 1170 Old 05-12-2015, 06:43 PM
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It is a vertical section of pipe? Cast iron vertical risers are much quieter. I had a vertical section of pipe replaced with cast iron when we took the great room down to the studs and I can't hear when someone flushes or takes a shower upstairs. It won't last as long as the PVC, but will outlive me for sure!


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