Soundproofing master thread - Page 37 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1081 of 1094 Old 04-25-2015, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by granroth View Post
I'd like to start from the top -- it's not physically possible to make a truly sound proof box. Rather, you are looking for a solution that reduces the transmission loss of specific frequencies at given input levels to some desired output level.

That may sound like I'm splitting hairs, but it's not. If whatever you are using to generate the noise is only outputting 50dB and you only need to attenuate it to 30dB, then quite a few solutions will be "sound proof". But if you're generating 20Hz tones at 120dB and need to get it down to 20dB... the nothing you described will come even a little bit close to being "sound proof".

So to start, what will be your input levels and what are your desired output levels?


I should have specified that I am NOT generating the "sound" - it is outside of my control, and I want a 'space' that is as free of that sound as is possible. I do not wish to attenuate it by any specific amount, other than as much as possible, without spending a fortune.
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post #1082 of 1094 Old 04-25-2015, 08:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanny04 View Post
I should have specified that I am NOT generating the "sound" - it is outside of my control, and I want a 'space' that is as free of that sound as is possible. I do not wish to attenuate it by any specific amount, other than as much as possible, without spending a fortune.
I'll admit that I cannot visualize what your enclosure looks like, so I won't directly comment on it. As for whether or not it'll work to your level of expectations -- sure, since you don't really have any set expectations. It is possible that you have some internal unvoiced expectations that are unrealistic for such a small enclosure, though. Impossible to say.

I will comment on a few of the general premises, though.

Sand works very well with low frequencies. The more, the better. It works even better than concrete, which is the typical material used for bass attenuation. It is hard to work with, though, as it is practically guaranteed to leak or spill over time. You do need a lot of it to make a very notable difference.

Putting the walls on angles will do very little for soundproofing. Angled walls can do wonders for scattering sound inside of an acoustically controlled space, but when trying to stop sound waves (especially low frequency ones), the wall will vibrate just as much as if it was perpendicular to the sound. The one benefit of an angled wall is that you may end up having notably more mass behind part of the wall and that extra mass will absolutely help. It's not likely worth doing, though.

1/2" plywood isn't as good as quite a few other sheet goods when it comes to sound control. The key is that you want it as massive as possible. In general, drywall > MDF > plywood and thicker is always better than thinner.
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post #1083 of 1094 Old 04-26-2015, 12:53 AM
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1/2 inch plywood isn't as good as quite a few other sheet goods when it comes to sound control.
and

1/2 inch plywood isn't as good as drywall when it comes to fire control. It's good as sheathing for bracing, such as with a cripple wall against earthquakes. And structurally able to screw things to the wall later.
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post #1084 of 1094 Old 04-27-2015, 06:15 AM
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Generally speaking, the best bang for the buck with insulation is the standard batts of fiberglass ("pink fluffy"). There are mild differences between the types, but not typically enough to notice or to justify the cost difference.
Is there any real benefit to the Owens Corning QuietZone® Noise Control Solutions with PureFiber® Technology?? Or is that just a bunch of marketing voodoo for the same standard pink stuff?

http://insulation.owenscorning.com/h...cts/quietzone/

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post #1085 of 1094 Old 04-27-2015, 06:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Is there any real benefit to the Owens Corning QuietZone® Noise Control Solutions with PureFiber® Technology?? Or is that just a bunch of marketing voodoo for the same standard pink stuff?

http://insulation.owenscorning.com/h...cts/quietzone/
Looks like marketing to me. They don't seem to publish any absorption coefficients that show a difference between it and the normal batts. Their listed wall assemblies also have pretty much the same rating as the tested assemblies with normal batts. They probably are the same wall assemblies since I highly doubt that Owens-Corning paid for a full suite of laboratory tested walls and then didn't publish the detailed results. When you spend that kind of money, you're going to show it off!
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post #1086 of 1094 Old 04-30-2015, 03:40 PM
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Well, that changed quickly. After explaining in more detail and showing pictures of putting actual drywall between the joists, the contractor didn't think we'd be able to do it, given how much HVAC and plumbing is running through them. No reason to only seal off half the joists, I guess.

We aren't ripping up the entire sub floor, either. So we're going to have to go with a Serenity Matt (or similar) over the sub floor and under the new floor.

So now I'm faced with the choices that I was hoping to avoid. If I'm going to be forced (by the wife, at the contractors suggestion) that our best move is to stick with a drop ceiling, can anyone recommend the best drop ceiling tiles for noise reduction? Also, what would you stuff the joists with? Roxul S&S? Or something else?

Maybe the best move is to bring in a sound specialist / home theater builder to weigh in with the contractor?

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Thanks! Spoke w our contractor, since they started demo yesterday. Explained what I wanted to accomplish, and what I thought we needed to do.

I'm leading towards Solution #4 (GreenGlue & Drywall under the subfloor) to get started. http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/...oof-a-ceiling/

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post #1087 of 1094 Old 05-01-2015, 09:30 AM
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x-ray solid slab sandwich door with lead in middle

Sharing here, this morning I went to get x-rays for my 6 month post right side complete hip operation, healing is on track.
My Titanium pieces are fusing nicely to the leg and hip bone

While in the x-ray room with the door open I noticed how heavy/massive it is, 5 hinges and all.
It's a solid slab sandwich with lead in the middle! Veneer on both sides.
Did not get the whole door profile, but these edge views show the construction, I thought neat.
I told the tech I was "into" HT stuff and would it be ok for me to rap it with my fist to see how solid it felt, she said "sure", as I was there 7:30am 1st and basically empty office. Man it was rock solid dead THUD, no resonance.
Light rap, medium rap, and pretty heavy rap all came back as a THUD.
.

This does not show the hinge side, but the door was hanging in this huge steel thick frame - much more sturdy than your typical office steel frame, makes me wonder if for the ultimate HT soundproofing effort instead of using a wood frame this should be looked at.
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post #1088 of 1094 Old 05-01-2015, 04:21 PM
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mtbdudex:
Reminds me of the Rod Gervais door -- {standard solid core door, sheet of 8 psf sheet lead, 3/4 inch plywood} -- with the lead and plywood being held back 1 inch on both sides and top for weather stripping.

[mentioned in his book 'Home Recording Studio Build it like the pros' and elsewhere]

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post #1089 of 1094 Old Yesterday, 10:19 AM
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Should haveexplained better perhaps.I am notgenerating any noise.There exists noisethat is not under my control.I have notmeasured, analyzed the noise.I feel itmore then I hear it.I want the insideof the box to be free of as much of the noise existing outside the box aspossible.


So, while one maymeasure the noise at XX, or whatever, I don't really care.The noise is there, I want to block as muchof it as possible.The fact that I feelit more then hear suggested to me it is mostly low frequency noise.


I hope that makemore sense.
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post #1090 of 1094 Old Yesterday, 10:21 AM
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I want to block noise that is not under my control

Should haveexplained better perhaps.I am notgenerating any noise. There exists noisethat is not under my control. I have notmeasured, analyzed the noise. I feel itmore then I hear it. I want the insideof the box to be free of as much of the noise existing outside the box aspossible.

So, while one maymeasure the noise at XX, or whatever, I don't really care. The noise is there, I want to block as muchof it as possible. The fact that I feelit more then hear suggested to me it is mostly low frequency noise.

I hope that makemore sense.
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post #1091 of 1094 Old Yesterday, 10:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
While in the x-ray room with the door open I noticed how heavy/massive it is, 5 hinges and all.
It's a solid slab sandwich with lead in the middle! Veneer on both sides.
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mtbdudex:
Reminds me of the Rod Gervais door -- {standard solid core door, sheet of 8 psf sheet lead, 3/4 inch plywood} -- with the lead and plywood being held back 1 inch on both sides and top for weather stripping.

[mentioned in his book 'Home Recording Studio Build it like the pros' and elsewhere]
That was my first thought, too. This is main part of it:



I priced out 8psf lead -- it would cost at least $500 and if ordered online, shipping would be brutal due to the 200lb weight of it.

Obviously very effective, though!

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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
This does not show the hinge side, but the door was hanging in this huge steel thick frame - much more sturdy than your typical office steel frame, makes me wonder if for the ultimate HT soundproofing effort instead of using a wood frame this should be looked at.
Interesting thought. I'd assume the steel frame was there for structural reasons rather than acoustic ones, since the door is so heavy (500lbs or more, maybe?) My intuition is that the steel frame would be mildly to notably worse from a soundproofing aspect than a wood frame.

@BasementBob , what's your thoughts on steel frames vs wood frames?
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post #1092 of 1094 Old Yesterday, 12:21 PM
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BasementBob: what's your thoughts on steel frames vs wood frames?
I don't recall any studies on the topic of steel vs wood door jambs (lots of studies/concerns on walls with steel studs vs wood studs). Concrete filled steel jambs can be quite strong and massive (google image 'residential vault door', and 'TankHead Blast Door' which is both massive and air tight), and might not even turn to dust due to open/close flexing.


I was looking at these the other day for something else, but I think they could hold up a door.
http://seblog.strongtie.com/wp-conte..._Frame_SMF.jpg
http://seblog.strongtie.com/wp-conte...MF-Install.jpg


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I priced out 8psf lead -- it would cost at least $500 and if ordered online, shipping would be brutal due to the 200lb weight of it
Then this post of mine here, about 2800 pound nuclear biological chemical blast doors, may be overkill from your perspective.

An amateur built the Ark. Titanic was built by professionals. Of course Noah took a little advice.

Last edited by BasementBob; Yesterday at 12:34 PM.
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post #1093 of 1094 Old Yesterday, 12:45 PM
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Interesting thought. I'd assume the steel frame was there for structural reasons rather than acoustic ones
The primary reason for steel instead of wood there would be to prevent radiation from leaving the room. Wood is biologic, and won't stop radiation.
Then there's fire prevention (many hospitals have patients that can't run a 5 minute mile when the fire alarm goes off, so fire resistant materials are used), and steel can take gurney impacts better than wood. Within limits -- I think it was a wood door with steel/lead lining for example.
And lastly, something structural to hold up the door without warping. There's probably something behind that steel to take the weight, but the steel itself won't warp with changes in moisture, and no warping means no radiation gaps
If they happen to get any acoustic benefits from structure with excessive mass, my bet is that's mostly a pleasant side effect of other concerns. X-rays aren't that noisy, compared to MRI/CT-scan.

An amateur built the Ark. Titanic was built by professionals. Of course Noah took a little advice.

Last edited by BasementBob; Yesterday at 12:56 PM.
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post #1094 of 1094 Old Yesterday, 11:30 PM
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The primary reason for steel instead of wood there would be to prevent radiation from leaving the room. Wood is biologic, and won't stop radiation.
Then there's fire prevention (many hospitals have patients that can't run a 5 minute mile when the fire alarm goes off, so fire resistant materials are used), and steel can take gurney impacts better than wood. Within limits -- I think it was a wood door with steel/lead lining for example.
And lastly, something structural to hold up the door without warping. There's probably something behind that steel to take the weight, but the steel itself won't warp with changes in moisture, and no warping means no radiation gaps
If they happen to get any acoustic benefits from structure with excessive mass, my bet is that's mostly a pleasant side effect of other concerns. X-rays aren't that noisy, compared to MRI/CT-scan.
he didn't suggest they use it for its acoustical properties, but that we can use the properties of such heavy doors for their acoustical properties. Or copy the properties with other materials.

FYI, X-rays travels in straight lines, so these doors don't have airtight seals, the lead just have to overlap the lead in the doorframe which overlaps with the lead or concrete in the wall.
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