Soundproofing master thread - Page 49 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1441 of 1557 Old 03-12-2016, 09:34 AM
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I have read a lot of threads and done a lot of searches but still not sure the best bang for the effort (not really a $ issue) for a multipurpose room so you help/experience is HIGHLY appreciated.

I'm turning my finished basement room into a multipurpose/media room and have a few issues I want to greatly reduce without tearing out all the drywall

1) Ceiling:
I don't want the mess/expense of tearing out the ceiling and I'm not modifying the walls (other than some treatments).
While in the basement, when not playing a video/music I can clearly hear sounds/voices, chairs moving across the floor, kids jumping ,etc
We have a mix of wood, tile walkway & laundry room, and living room carpeted above. The basement ceiling is insulated with white batts of something encapsulated in perforated plastic(?)

Question:
Would I see a lot of improvement adding a layer of 5/8" drywall attached with Green Glue to the 1/2" Dryawall already on the ceiling? I don't expect silence but if I can reduce the sound by ~3x that would be great. Kids talking translates into about 40-60db in the basement, where moving chairs, jumping on the floor, etc hits up to 70-80DB.

2) Wall with Furnace:
One wall to the media room has the furnace. The wall is small (approx 4x8 w/ a 28" door) tearing out the drywall in this case is fine but if I can avoid even better. I will be replacing the door with a solid core and threshold drop to block sound from under the door escaping. Furnace is not super loud but is noticeable when watching TV/Movies (notice level is about 40db from the Furnace - with hollow core door)
The orig owners didn't insulate that wall and the furnace is only 1" away from the wall studs on facing the furnace (no drywall on the furnace side) so no easy way to access the inside of the wall, I could slip ~1" board between the wall studs and the furnace. Anything non-rigid would be a lot harder to get in.

Questions:
What is a cost effective way to reduce the sounds and slight vibration (not audible) transmitted through and into that wall?
Should I do DD/GG or QuietRock? I cannot take up more than another 1" or 2" of space into the room since it is next to the entrance door.
Other options???

3) HVAC main ducts
These run on the right side of the room - where the ceiling drops from 9' to 8'.
Only 1" between the studs and the metal duct. There is not much noise or vibration transmitted but I was thinking about adding some insulation a little for R value and a little for just ensuring I block the little sound and vibration that is there.

Questions:
What is better Roxul or Denium insulation?
I get airflow noise on the Supply side - is there an easy way to reduce air noise from the registers?


Thanks for the help and pointers!
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post #1442 of 1557 Old 03-12-2016, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Livin View Post
I have read a lot of threads and done a lot of searches but still not sure the best bang for the effort (not really a $ issue) for a multipurpose room so you help/experience is HIGHLY appreciated.

I'm turning my finished basement room into a multipurpose/media room and have a few issues I want to greatly reduce without tearing out all the drywall
Livin,

What are your goals and what are your constraints? The more specific you can be, the more on point to your needs others' responses will be.

I'll start out by saying the end result is directly proportional to the amount of effort you put in to this project. IMHO, if you are looking for significant improvements in external sound reduction (which it sounds like you are), then if you are not willing to put in considerable effort I would suggest you don't change anything. To wit: installing a solid core door is going to be a pointless endeavor unless you also make substantial changes to other parts of the room.

Now, that said....

Quote:
1) Ceiling:
I don't want the mess/expense of tearing out the ceiling and I'm not modifying the walls (other than some treatments).
Personally, I don't think that's a big deal - in general - when it comes to the ceiling. Many people don't want to deal with the ceiling. You will of course get much better results by putting a concerted effort into damping it, but you can get good results (certainly better than what you have now) by adding additional layers of drywall to your existing ceiling.

Impact and flanking noises are common problems in basement HT rooms, and much of that comes through the ceiling. So, if you don't decouple it and only damp it, your results won't be as good (but they may be acceptable to you and would certainly be an improvement to your current situation).

However, with regards to your walls.... see below.

Quote:
The basement ceiling is insulated with white batts of something encapsulated in perforated plastic(?)
Sounds like insulation and the plastic is there to hold it in place. If it were along an exterior surface it would likely be a vapor barrier, but you shouldn't have a vapor barrier with an interior partition.

Quote:
Question:
Would I see a lot of improvement adding a layer of 5/8" drywall attached with Green Glue to the 1/2" Dryawall already on the ceiling? I don't expect silence but if I can reduce the sound by ~3x that would be great. Kids talking translates into about 40-60db in the basement, where moving chairs, jumping on the floor, etc hits up to 70-80DB.
"A lot" is a subjective term. IMHO, in your case you'll see a mild improvement, but you will still hear those noises. If it were me, adding a single layer of 1/2" or 5/8" drywall + GG - under your circumstances - would not satisfy my interest in better sound proofing. Now, if you added 2 layers and installed staggered studs in the walls, you'd get a better result and if I were you, I'd probably call that good enough.

Quote:
2) Wall with Furnace:
One wall to the media room has the furnace. The wall is small (approx 4x8 w/ a 28" door) tearing out the drywall in this case is fine but if I can avoid even better. I will be replacing the door with a solid core and threshold drop to block sound from under the door escaping. Furnace is not super loud but is noticeable when watching TV/Movies (notice level is about 40db from the Furnace - with hollow core door)
The orig owners didn't insulate that wall and the furnace is only 1" away from the wall studs on facing the furnace (no drywall on the furnace side) so no easy way to access the inside of the wall, I could slip ~1" board between the wall studs and the furnace. Anything non-rigid would be a lot harder to get in.
If you are averse to drywall work, why not contract it out?

If you can come up with a solid plan and pay someone to do the drywall walls and ceiling work for you, I believe you'll be much happier in the end. You'd still need to consider if you or someone else would construct clips & channel and/or staggered/double studs, etc. If you are willing to do those things yourself (and the demo of existing drywall), you can save yourself mucho $$$ in labor costs, if that is important to you.

The fact that you are in this forum and asking these questions indicates you have a strong desire to make this project happen.

Quote:
Questions:
What is a cost effective way to reduce the sounds and slight vibration (not audible) transmitted through and into that wall?
Should I do DD/GG or QuietRock? I cannot take up more than another 1" or 2" of space into the room since it is next to the entrance door.
Other options???
That would help. It sounds like your best bet would be to move the furnace at least a few inches, to allow you more options in isolating its noises from your HT room. It may be worth calling a HVAC contractor and getting a free estimate. It may not be very costly, especially relative to other items and looking at it from the standpoint of sound proofing per $ spent.

Quote:
3) HVAC main ducts
These run on the right side of the room - where the ceiling drops from 9' to 8'.
Only 1" between the studs and the metal duct. There is not much noise or vibration transmitted but I was thinking about adding some insulation a little for R value and a little for just ensuring I block the little sound and vibration that is there.
Are you going to build a soffit? If so, you may be able to hide or envelope that duct in the process. If not, again it's worth consulting with an HVAC contractor about options to relocate it.

Quote:
Questions:
What is better Roxul or Denium insulation?
I suggest you search the forum for 'Roxul', 'rock wool', and 'denim insulation.' You will find a variety of opinions. There is some controversy over the use of denim insulation since it contains boron as a fire retardant. In airborne form, boron can be irritating to sensitive individuals. That said, if your interior walls are properly fire and draft stopped, that should be a non-issue once your walls are covered with drywall, etc.

Quote:
I get airflow noise on the Supply side - is there an easy way to reduce air noise from the registers?
Where is the noise coming from? Your air registers in your room? If so, it's likely due to the proximity of your room to the HVAC unit.

You need to slow down the velocity of the air flow. There are a number of ways to do this. Again, if you search the AVS forum you'll find a number of discussions on the subject. Briefly, in your case you could use dampers (but you may still find the noise to be too loud if the velocity is very high), or you could extend the length of the run into your HT room using round, insulated flexible ducts. Or perhaps you might need a combination of the two. And again, I'd suggest consulting with a competent HVAC installer with a lot of experience. They could address all 3 of these issues and then you'd have enough information to decide if you want to tackle those concerns and if so, would you DIY or hire a pro.

That's my $0.02.
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post #1443 of 1557 Old 03-12-2016, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Livin View Post
What is better Roxul or Denium insulation?
One more thought on this subject.... Denim insulation will give you arguably the best performance in sound attenuation.

Check out Bob Gold's TL figures.

I'm attaching an Excel sheet (Excel 2007) that I put together some time ago that will make your comparison process easier. On the right side of the sheet, you'll find 15 different insulating products ranked by order of best (rank 1) to worst (rank 15) in terms of sound absorption and cost per square foot.

The top 3 products based on sound attenuation or absorption are Bonded Logic Denim and Roxul Safe'n'Sound. You really can't go wrong with any of those three.

That said, the scope of this data is a bit deceptive in the sense there is not a huge difference in appreciable attenuation (to the human ear) between the best and the worst performers. If you want really good attenuation then you will need a lot of air space and a lot of dense material. In a 3.5" thick wood stud wall, the differences (between materials) are not huge. Still, there are differences. You also need to consider the cost. Denim insulation is ~3x the cost of fiberglass 'pink fluffy,' but it does not provide 3x the sound attenuation.
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post #1444 of 1557 Old 03-12-2016, 05:20 PM
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Does anyone know (or can intelligently speculate) if 1/2" gypsum (40lb sheets) on resilient channel (16" o.c.) can safely mount an upper kitchen cabinet onto? (i.e. on the wall just below the ceiling.) I know RC can withstand up to three sheets of 5/8" gypsum but I haven't been able to find any info on whether it can withstand this sort of shear force (is that the right term?) especially if the cabinets are screwed into the gypsum and not the studs behind.

If not, I might have to just forgo RC on this particular wall and just use it on the other walls in my HT (it's a bachelor suite, so everything's kinda in one room.)
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post #1445 of 1557 Old 03-12-2016, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HelmedHorror View Post
Does anyone know (or can intelligently speculate) if 1/2" gypsum (40lb sheets) on resilient channel (16" o.c.) can safely mount an upper kitchen cabinet onto? (i.e. on the wall just below the ceiling.) I know RC can withstand up to three sheets of 5/8" gypsum but I haven't been able to find any info on whether it can withstand this sort of shear force (is that the right term?) especially if the cabinets are screwed into the gypsum and not the studs behind.

If not, I might have to just forgo RC on this particular wall and just use it on the other walls in my HT (it's a bachelor suite, so everything's kinda in one room.)
You could ask the manufacturer for their opinion, but
the problem isn't the cabinets but what you put into them.
The way resilient channel works is a mass-spring-mass system. There's always an optimal weight that can be hung on a spring where the spring moves most efficiently. Consider a ball point pen spring, and hang a concrete block on it -- much too heavy for such a little spring, and the spring will stretch out and not spring at all. Consider a spoon placed upon a car shocks spring -- much to light to compress the spring into its working range.
If you're hanging picture frames, or anything else of constant weight, then its just a question of doing the math to figure out how many resilient channels per vertical distance.
But with a cupboard, there's a big difference between the weight of an empty cupboard, and one that's full of dinner plates. If the cabinets were always empty, then it's just math.
And there's the dynamic load, pulling on the screws in the resilient channel, whenever its loaded or unloaded.

If the manufacturer disagrees, then fine. If the difference in weight on a single channel (cabinets are mostly hung by a single top run of screws) is 10% of the load of the drywall on a single channel, then fine. But my instinct is that if you want to put up a kitchen cabinet, then I think that's contrary to the science behind how resilient channels are meant to work, by getting the hung weight into the optimum weight range for the spring (the resilient channel) -- because the weight isn't going to be constant. Or to put the same thing another way, wherever there are going to be kitchen cabinets don't hang them on resilient channel there.
jrref, HT Geek and HelmedHorror like this.

An amateur built the Ark. Titanic was built by professionals. Of course Noah took a little advice.
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post #1446 of 1557 Old 03-13-2016, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HelmedHorror View Post
Does anyone know (or can intelligently speculate) if 1/2" gypsum (40lb sheets) on resilient channel (16" o.c.) can safely mount an upper kitchen cabinet onto? (i.e. on the wall just below the ceiling.) I know RC can withstand up to three sheets of 5/8" gypsum but I haven't been able to find any info on whether it can withstand this sort of shear force (is that the right term?) especially if the cabinets are screwed into the gypsum and not the studs behind.

If not, I might have to just forgo RC on this particular wall and just use it on the other walls in my HT (it's a bachelor suite, so everything's kinda in one room.)
I'll add a few thoughts to Bob's great summary above.
  1. By manufacturer, I'm presuming Bob was referring to the RC manufacturer. That is whom I'd consult with first.
  2. If your cabinet supports attaching via more than one horizontal row of screws, you will increase the number of RC channels you can screw it into, thus increasing its stability
  3. If the cabinet(s) will be used in the capacity of a kitchen cabinet, it's probably a bad idea to hang it on RC in general since you'll have variable weights in there that could change over time and between owners/users.
  4. Another issue is with RC you are limited in terms of your screw length, since you do not want to pierce the channel when attaching items to the RC; in contrast, with a stud wall attachment of a cabinet you may use longer/wider screws to help support more weight
  5. If heavy objects were placed toward the front (opening) of the cabinet, they would increase the pull-out force placed on the screws; given the fact you'd need to use shallower screws than normal (to use the RC appropriately), this would not be good

I don't believe your idea is completely out of the question. However, it would require careful planning and realistic evaluation of weights, screw sizes and lengths, screw position, etc. You should also consider the fact you are not likely to reside in that home forever, and how might a future owner use the cabinet(s)? Could you expose yourself to potential liability in the future?

IMHO, Bob's assessment is right on. You'd be better off excluding that area from the RC. If you're concerned about noise abatement there, consider alternatives such as multiple layers of drywall. Just be sure you can still attach screws of an appropriate length to hold up the cabinets (i.e. appropriate length = meeting manufacturer's minimum recommended length of screw penetration into wall studs).
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post #1447 of 1557 Old 03-14-2016, 07:27 PM
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This is an exciting time for me. I'm getting ready to finish the basement in a few weeks and am currently in the planning process. I have quite a few questions about how I should tackle this. The basement used to be a workshop. The area is 21 feet long, 11 feet wide, and 8 feet high. What I need to know is if I should worry about decoupling on the walls or if I should focus on the ceiling. The walls are made out of concrete. Is there any way I can soundproof the ceiling along with the ducts? How should I do it? I've finally decided on Roxul Safe N' Sound. Still having a hard time settling on a drywall. Do I need acoustic drywall for the walls as well? Thank you so much for taking the time to read this!
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post #1448 of 1557 Old 03-14-2016, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Josiah88 View Post
This is an exciting time for me. I'm getting ready to finish the basement in a few weeks and am currently in the planning process. I have quite a few questions about how I should tackle this. The basement used to be a workshop. The area is 21 feet long, 11 feet wide, and 8 feet high.
Is that your total basement size, or your proposed HT room size? BTW, I'm presuming you are talking about converting this area into a Home Theater room. Is that presumption correct or do you have a different goal in mind?

For a HT room, that is a very narrow space (11 feet).

Are your room dimensions uniform across the entire space? Based on your photos, I suspect they are not.

Quote:
What I need to know is if I should worry about decoupling on the walls or if I should focus on the ceiling.
Generally speaking, both. However, if that area you describe is your ENTIRE basement then obviously walls may be of lesser concern to you in theory. And that's a canned answer based on not knowing/understanding your goals. What are your goals - in terms of managing sound coming into or exiting your home theater environment?

Quote:
The walls are made out of concrete.
Even concrete will conduct sound. The more massive the concrete is, the less sound it conducts from one side to another. Unfortunately, many homes' concrete is not that massive. Relatively speaking. If you want to know exactly how much YOUR concrete wall will reduce sound transmission, you can do the math if you like.

Quote:
Is there any way I can soundproof the ceiling along with the ducts?
Yes.

Quote:
How should I do it?
Very carefully.


JK.

You'll find many opinions on this forum, but in a nutshell think of your HT room as a cocoon. You want to isolate potentially noisy elements such as HVAC ducts from your cocoon.

Based on your photos, I'm surmising moving those ducts is not an option, so you'll need to think of ideas to work around them. A common method is to build a soffit into your HT room plans and enclose your HVAC ducts in said soffit. Doing so gives you some options to both hide and quiet the ducts.

Lowering the ceiling to conceal the ducts is another common solution.

Unfortunately, in your case you'd be facing dual headwinds in regards to either: 1) your ceiling is relatively low starting out; and 2) your room is rather narrow (which makes the concept of a soffit more likely to appear awkward).


Quote:
I've finally decided on Roxul Safe N' Sound.
Ok. Good product, but honestly I think you are putting the cart in front of the horse based on your comments/questions. IMHO, that ought to be a low priority concern for you atm since you don't seem to have a comprehensive plan (yet). Roxul is a very good product. I almost used it myself, but in my case (as an example), 'pink fluffy' won out simply on cost alone (less than 1/2 of Roxul).

Quote:
Still having a hard time settling on a drywall. Do I need acoustic drywall for the walls as well?
I've never heard of "acoustic" drywall. Where have you heard of this? Sounds like marketing Bravo Sierra.

There are various thicknesses of drywall. Thicker = better when it comes to attenuating sound entering or leaving a home theater.

Take a step back and first consider your primary goals (e.g. watch movies at insane volumes; not disturb people next door/room above/etc., and your primary constraints (e.g. budget, room size).

What are you trying to accomplish??? Do you have a budget? If you could be clear in responding to questions above and rank your goals, that would help greatly with receiving targeted responses.
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post #1449 of 1557 Old 03-15-2016, 12:08 AM
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Hi Folks,

I live in New Zealand and will start building my dream home in few months time with a dedicated cinema. I am looking at serenity mat alternative available in the country locally. I have found a product that is made out of crumb rubber. Below are it's real life photos. Can someone please tell me if this is what serenity mat looks like in person? I can't find a really close up photo of serenity mat to confirm myself.

Thanks



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post #1450 of 1557 Old 03-15-2016, 10:09 AM
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I do apologize and appreciate your response, HT Geek. It's a very interesting house and basement to begin with. I'm rather new to the whole forum experience and hope many will forgive my lack of knowledge in that regard. This will in fact be a home theater and I do understand that it is a fairy narrow space to begin with. Unfortunately, this is the best I've got at the moment. I am trying to keep sound contained and am trying not to spend more than $2,000 - $3,000. If I need to spend more, then so be it.

My goal is to have a room that I can watch movies in without disturbing anyone above me. I have made peace with the fact that this room will not be acoustically perfect. I do understand that the imaging and soundstage will be imperfect.

You do have very good assumptions, by the way. :P The only other room is where the circuit breaker is located and the water heater. The stairs and the room above are carpeted.

As for the drywall, I was thinking of something like QuietRock for the ceiling. Perhaps there is a better cost effective alternative.

You are right. I definitely need a better game plan. I admit that I'm getting a little ahead of myself.
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post #1451 of 1557 Old 03-15-2016, 11:36 AM
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Just want to get any pros and cons from you guys of this decision I think I have finally made. I have added dd/gg between my ceiling joists, but have decided to NOT use clips/channel/OSB/gg/dw to finish the rooms walls and ceilings. Here's why -

In the HT space:
1 - there are doorways to a bathroom, bedroom, garage
2 - an opening to the stairwell up (door at top, can't add one to the bottom)
3 - a fireplace that will be within the room (sealing issue around the rock)
4 - HVAC within the area of the HT (another door)
5 - I can't close the room off for a single door "dedicated" space

The original plan was to follow the standard soundproofing methods for a dedicated room, but I think that there are so many areas for the sound to escape from this large room even after all these steps that it wouldn't be worth the extra money and enormous amount of extra time trying to decouple the whole space. I think it might all be done with little improvement. The Soundproofing company guy (John?) advised that there are too many obstacles from having the stairwell and other rooms alone. He advised that adding mass like I have done is probably the only thing I can do to that would have real benefit. Maybe I should follow this advice and not waste my time with it? He could sell me products but advised against, so that has worth...

Thoughts please?
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post #1452 of 1557 Old 03-16-2016, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BasementBob View Post
Spoiler!
Quote:
Originally Posted by HT Geek View Post
Spoiler!
Would it be safe to screw the cabinets to the stud instead of the RC? I realize that would mostly short-circuit the acoustic resilience of the wall, but the alternative would be not putting RC anyway...
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post #1453 of 1557 Old 03-17-2016, 01:36 AM
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Any one that has seen serenity mat in person please comment on below links post?

Soundproofing master thread
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post #1454 of 1557 Old 03-17-2016, 02:34 PM
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Some questions

had to hire

Last edited by steveurban; 03-18-2016 at 08:16 PM.
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post #1455 of 1557 Old 03-17-2016, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powersquad View Post
Hi Folks,

I live in New Zealand and will start building my dream home in few months time with a dedicated cinema. I am looking at serenity mat alternative available in the country locally. I have found a product that is made out of crumb rubber. Below are it's real life photos. Can someone please tell me if this is what serenity mat looks like in person? I can't find a really close up photo of serenity mat to confirm myself.
AFAIK, the key is to use a rubber-type of product. All similar products I've seen contain recycled rubber, but I doubt it matters if it's recycled or not. I believe the point is that rubber serves well for what you are trying to accomplish. I wouldn't sweat it too much. Look for a product that is 3/8" (9.5mm), 1/2" (12.5mm), or thicker.

Photo of Serenity Mat from the Sound Proofing Company's website.

Photo of product very similar to what I used.

There's not a huge difference in outward appearance between them. They are both manufactured from recycled rubber. The version I purchased was cheaper (1/2), which is why I bought it. YMMV.
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post #1456 of 1557 Old 03-17-2016, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Josiah88 View Post
I do apologize and appreciate your response, HT Geek. It's a very interesting house and basement to begin with. I'm rather new to the whole forum experience and hope many will forgive my lack of knowledge in that regard. This will in fact be a home theater and I do understand that it is a fairy narrow space to begin with. Unfortunately, this is the best I've got at the moment. I am trying to keep sound contained and am trying not to spend more than $2,000 - $3,000. If I need to spend more, then so be it.
Not trying to sound daft here, but is 2-3k your entire budget, i.e. including equipment? Or is that your budget for the room improvements?

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My goal is to have a room that I can watch movies in without disturbing anyone above me. I have made peace with the fact that this room will not be acoustically perfect. I do understand that the imaging and soundstage will be imperfect.

You do have very good assumptions, by the way. :P The only other room is where the circuit breaker is located and the water heater. The stairs and the room above are carpeted.

As for the drywall, I was thinking of something like QuietRock for the ceiling. Perhaps there is a better cost effective alternative.
How tall are those HVAC ducts? That looks to be your biggest challenge atm, me thinks.

In one of your photos there is a gray square in the lower left corner. What is that?

Is there anything in the ceiling of this room that must always be accessible from this room? I can't tell if you might have anything up there that would qualify as requiring access (i.e. you cannot cover with drywall and forget about it).

If you want to do this on the cheap (relatively speaking), I would be thinking about sound isolation from the ceiling/floor above, and how to deal with those ducts. I'd say you also would need to do a room-within-a-room by creating a double stud wall all the way around. Right now it looks like you just have block walls. The upside is it accomplishes several things at once: a) drop the ceiling to create an air gap, add insulation, and double drywall; b) run ceiling joists across your new inner stud walls to support 'a'; c) hide the HVAC ducts. The tricky part would be figuring out how to hide the HVAC ducts and still run joist across the width of the room. You would normally be ok with 2x6's for a 10' to 11' span, but you could get away with sistered 2x4's, 18" O.C. if you wanted to save 2" in height (I did the math and it works with 2x 1/2" or 5/8" drywall and no soffit - which you won't have since your ceiling is too short). Downside would be losing ~9" of room width and higher lumber cost and more time sorting lumber (at least if you pick your own boards like I did, to make sure the ones you get are straight).

You could create a soffit of sorts to hide the HVAC, but it would run your room length and be awkward. Perhaps make a few feet of the ceiling all that same lower height where you'd place your TV or screen to make it a bit less awkward. Once the lights are off/dimmed, the effect would not be as bad.

So, my thinking from what I can see in your photos... if I were you... would be to drop that ceiling down to hide the HVAC ducts. By building double-stud walls on the side that could support new ceiling joists and substituting sistered 2x4's instead of 2x6 joists, you could save a couple of inches. Unfortunately, you're still talking about 1" air gap + 3.5" tall joists + ?" HVAC duct height. That's all without considering the floor. If the main part of your ceiling would drop below 7' then technically you would be below the 7' 6" minimum ceiling height per code. However, you may be able to get an exemption from your municipality if you successfully argue that in order to make that space "habitable," this is what is required due to the presence of the HVAC ducts, and moving them would place an unreasonable burden on the homeowner when there isn't a safety issue in play. Another option would be don't get it inspected (or you may be lucky and your jurisdiction might not require it for your situation).

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You are right. I definitely need a better game plan. I admit that I'm getting a little ahead of myself.
Not at all! You're doing the smart thing by asking lots of questions.
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post #1457 of 1557 Old 03-17-2016, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by d_c View Post
Just want to get any pros and cons from you guys of this decision I think I have finally made. I have added dd/gg between my ceiling joists, but have decided to NOT use clips/channel/OSB/gg/dw to finish the rooms walls and ceilings. Here's why -

In the HT space:
1 - there are doorways to a bathroom, bedroom, garage
2 - an opening to the stairwell up (door at top, can't add one to the bottom)
3 - a fireplace that will be within the room (sealing issue around the rock)
4 - HVAC within the area of the HT (another door)
5 - I can't close the room off for a single door "dedicated" space

The original plan was to follow the standard soundproofing methods for a dedicated room, but I think that there are so many areas for the sound to escape from this large room even after all these steps that it wouldn't be worth the extra money and enormous amount of extra time trying to decouple the whole space. I think it might all be done with little improvement. The Soundproofing company guy (John?) advised that there are too many obstacles from having the stairwell and other rooms alone. He advised that adding mass like I have done is probably the only thing I can do to that would have real benefit. Maybe I should follow this advice and not waste my time with it? He could sell me products but advised against, so that has worth...

Thoughts please?
I tend to agree with John and with your assessment. At some point, it's not worth the effort. We all have our thresholds; it sounds like you've reached yours. No argument from me. You do have a lot of headwinds, it seems.

That said, I'll offer a few suggestions in case they cross your mind in the future. None will mute a source of interference, but all would mitigate it:
  1. Multiple points of egress: replace hollow core with solid core doors and thick gaskets around jambs
  2. Bottom of stairwell: hang a thick, padded curtain across doorway
  3. HT room door: Use a solid core door and damp it with drywall on HVAC room side + thick gaskets on jambs

I'm not sure if you've considered a room-within-a-room concept by using double stud walls. That in conjunction with thicker door jambs and potentially adding inner doors could also go a long way to mitigate sound leakage, if you are willing to consider that route.
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post #1458 of 1557 Old 03-17-2016, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by HelmedHorror View Post
Would it be safe to screw the cabinets to the stud instead of the RC? I realize that would mostly short-circuit the acoustic resilience of the wall, but the alternative would be not putting RC anyway...
Yes. When cabinets are installed, that's how they are secured to the wall (by screwing fasteners into a stud). Actually, in some cases there is a back-plate which is screwed into the stud and the cabinets connect to the back-plate, but you get the point: the load bearing apparatus is secured into studs.

And yes, you could screw through the RC and into the studs to hang your cabinets but as you pointed out it would short-circuit your RC (though not necessarily to the point of being too detrimental, depending on how many short-circuits and your needs).

What I would suggest is this: run your RC to within 1" longitudinally along the wall relative to where you want your kitchen cabinets (i.e. leave gap between edge of cabinet and where RC begins). When you hang the drywall on your RC, leave a 1/4" gap between drywall and the cabinets (might want to install the cabinets first, then drywall on the RC). Install furring strips where the cabinets will be placed. Secure the furring strips to the studs and run the furring perpendicular to the studs (this will allow the furring strips to serve as a "back support" of sorts, so the back of your cabinets are not resting on air). Determine where your screws in the cabinets will hit the studs and make sure you have a small block of wood or another furring strip for the screws to dig into before they dig into the stud. Mount your cabinets so their back touches the furring strips and the screws still go into the studs. The trick is: 1) make sure the furring strip thickness matches the offset to your walls created by the RC and X layers of drywall next to them so the cabinets are flush in depth as you'd like; and 2) ensure you add the depth of the furring strips to your screw length for your cabinets (i.e. use longer screws to account for the furring strip depth).

If you want to get a little more fancy, allocate a portion of the furring strip depth for a rubber mat such as Serenity Mat (some kind of rubber product to help pad/deaden the vibrations a bit to/from the cabinets).

Forgive me if you already answered this question, but would the RC be installed over existing drywall?
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post #1459 of 1557 Old 03-18-2016, 08:44 PM
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Hello!

During my build I had to special order some insulation. Because of the wait time I ordered a little more than I measured for to be safe.

As things change and modify, I now have two bags of Roxul Acoustic Batts and 16 Rockboard 80 boards.

What are some ideas and uses for my extra? I've been stuffing and laying insulation wherever I can.

I wanted to hear your thoughts from more experienced builders.

Thank you!
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post #1460 of 1557 Old 03-19-2016, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Brymo View Post
I now have two bags of Roxul Acoustic Batts and 16 Rockboard 80 boards.

What are some ideas and uses for my extra? I've been stuffing and laying insulation wherever I can.
What size are the batts? Are these the AFB's, Safe 'n' Sound, etc.? Did you already add fire stopping and draft stopping?

The Rockboard 80 is very dense. Bass traps, perhaps. You could attach it to the inside of your door, make fabric panels that hide it on the walls, etc. Lots of potential uses.

I would imagine the Rockboard would make a good fabric covered absorber if you need any on your walls or ceiling. Have you performed REW (or similar testing) around your room or worked with a pro to locate problem areas and frequencies???
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post #1461 of 1557 Old 03-19-2016, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by HT Geek View Post
What size are the batts? Are these the AFB's, Safe 'n' Sound, etc.? Did you already add fire stopping and draft stopping?

The Rockboard 80 is very dense. Bass traps, perhaps. You could attach it to the inside of your door, make fabric panels that hide it on the walls, etc. Lots of potential uses.

I would imagine the Rockboard would make a good fabric covered absorber if you need any on your walls or ceiling. Have you performed REW (or similar testing) around your room or worked with a pro to locate problem areas and frequencies???
They are AFB I believe one bag is 80sq, so total of 160sq left over.

I already have bass traps in the front. I made 60% of the walls are fabric covered panels of Rockboard 80. Hiding on the ceiling covered in black is my first choice. Behind the doors are a good idea. I was thinking of putting in new solid core doors. What else would I want to look for? I'm having to replace three doors as they are those cheap hallow core ones.

I was also thinking of putting the AFB in my utility closet just because I had extra.

Thanks for the reply!
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post #1462 of 1557 Old 03-20-2016, 02:51 PM
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Best bang-for-the-buck for ceiling?

I'm building a new house and am thinking about doing some sort of sound-reducing on the ceilings of the bedrooms below the main level. I realize that for good soundproofing you need decoupling, however, I don't want to spend the money and time to use clips and everything as this isn't a theater, I'm just trying to reduce the sound somewhat from the room above. For walls I know that the best bang-for-the-buck is simply to double-drywall. Of course not as good as more thorough approaches, but it helps.

So for a ceiling, are there any methods that help reduce the sound somewhat without spending a lot of money? Would it be helpful to put R-19 fiberglass between the joists? Or would double-drywall on the ceiling be better? Or both? I'm having trouble finding data about ceiling noise reduction. Thanks.
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post #1463 of 1557 Old 03-20-2016, 03:35 PM
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There are two types of roxul insulation. There is an R 23 which says comfort bat on the outside and then there is an R 16 which says safe and sound on the outside. Does the R 23 do the same soundproofing job that the R 16 does?
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post #1464 of 1557 Old 03-21-2016, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by DarkNovaNick View Post
... So for a ceiling, are there any methods that help reduce the sound somewhat without spending a lot of money? Would it be helpful to put R-19 fiberglass between the joists? Or would double-drywall on the ceiling be better? Or both?
Yes. In a nutshell, do both.

Now, the caveats.

If you are trying to address a particular issue, such as impact noise (think of high heels on a hardwood floor above you), then you need to take the sound dampening in a particular direction to address a particular problem. That said, I get where (I believe) you're coming from: you want to muffle the transmission of sound between rooms as much as possible with the least amount of complexity, and apply it to your entire home. So, in that case yes your proposal makes sense.

I'll just add to be sure not to overly compress the insulation. In general, R19 should work well between floors but not inside 2x4 walls (use R13 or R15).

You didn't mention walls, but you might also want to consider using 2x6 wall studs if that is an option. You'd need your architect to spec that in the plans. That would allow you to use thicker insulation in the walls and the deeper air cavity would also help slightly in and of itself.


Quote:
I'm having trouble finding data about ceiling noise reduction. Thanks.
NRC-Canada probably has the most comprehensive data on the subject. It is one of very few resources with data on sound proofing floors/ceilings. I've seen a few other resources on the subject, but the names escape me atm.

Anyhow, I've attached a paper by Warnock from 1999 (Controlling the Transmission of Impact Sound through Floors). It may be useful to you and is relatively short in length.
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File Type: pdf NRC_CNRC_paper_on_floor_sound_transmission.pdf (643.9 KB, 6 views)

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post #1465 of 1557 Old 03-21-2016, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by HT Geek View Post
Yes. In a nutshell, do both.
Thank you for your helpful response. Yes, I realize that reducing impact noise (the low frequencies) requires much more intensive work in order to do well, and for these rooms I'm not going to worry too much about that as I don't want to make things overly complicated to build. For reducing other noise in general (like say voices between the floors), do you know how much of a factor insulation is compared to the double-drywall? I ask because I would view adding insulation as like level 1: cheap and easy to add, no real changes needed in how the room is built. Adding a 2nd layer of drywall is level 2: the ceiling electrical boxes need to be shifted, longer screws are needed, etc. Not really that complicated but a little bit more so. So would just adding insulation do nothing, is the double-drywall really what would cut down the noise? Or would just insulation help somewhat and double-drywall would improve things more? Thanks.
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post #1466 of 1557 Old 03-21-2016, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkNovaNick View Post
Thank you for your helpful response. Yes, I realize that reducing impact noise (the low frequencies) requires much more intensive work in order to do well, and for these rooms I'm not going to worry too much about that as I don't want to make things overly complicated to build. For reducing other noise in general (like say voices between the floors), do you know how much of a factor insulation is compared to the double-drywall? I ask because I would view adding insulation as like level 1: cheap and easy to add, no real changes needed in how the room is built. Adding a 2nd layer of drywall is level 2: the ceiling electrical boxes need to be shifted, longer screws are needed, etc. Not really that complicated but a little bit more so. So would just adding insulation do nothing, is the double-drywall really what would cut down the noise? Or would just insulation help somewhat and double-drywall would improve things more? Thanks.

I have a similar situation as you, and have done some research. What I plan to do is fill in all joints and seams with acoustical caulk, add 3/4 MDF cut to size between the joists, and add about 4" of SafeNSound sound to the cavity. I believe this will give me the best results with the least effort.


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post #1467 of 1557 Old 03-21-2016, 10:09 AM
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I wonder if I could get some input on a home theater ceiling project. I had a dropped ceiling which I took out due to noise leakage in the ceiling above. Originally I had planned to add 5/8 drywall between the joists, but am consisting 3/4 MDF board now, which is quite a bit more expensive. Is it worth the premium? (I still plan to install double drywall with furring channel and isolation clips)


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post #1468 of 1557 Old 03-21-2016, 11:00 AM
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... do you know how much of a factor insulation is compared to the double-drywall? I ask because I would view adding insulation as like level 1: cheap and easy to add, no real changes needed in how the room is built.
I'll share my personal experience on this front. After I recently added the inner layer of insulation to my HT room build in-progress (double stud wall), it was remarkable how much "deader" my room sounded just doing that - with no wall coverings yet. YMMV, but after the 2nd layer (total 7" thick insulation), I could no longer hear any sound from the adjacent bedroom and reflected noises from downstairs (2nd floor theater) were diminished dramatically. And that's in a room with no wall coverings and also no door. So, personally I am sold on using [loose-fill fiberglass] insulation based on that experience alone.

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Adding a 2nd layer of drywall is level 2: the ceiling electrical boxes need to be shifted, longer screws are needed, etc. Not really that complicated but a little bit more so.
It's not as difficult as one might imagine. The easiest route - that I've found - is to use Carlon adjustable depth gang boxes. Home Depot and Lowes both sell them in single and dual gang sizes, Amazon carries 1 thru 4 gang sizes, and I'm sure you could find them at electrical supply stores as well (or your contractors could). They will run you ~$70 for a box of 16 single/double gang or abut the same $ for a box of 10 in the 3/4 gang size. Think it over and guesstimate how this would add to your home-building cost along with using 2x drywall.

Carlon makes 2 sizes of each: standard depth and deeper boxes. Make sure you get the deeper ones (e.g. 34 cu. in. versus 21 cu. in. single gang). They don't need to be adjusted until after the walls are up, which is a bonus. There are also plastic slots that can be inserted into normal gang boxes to yield a similar effect. The adjustable boxes I'm referring to have a Philips head screw on one side that pushes the box frame inward or outward. They reach out at least 2 inches, if not more, when fully extended. The only downside is cost. Make sure the installer realizes there are screw/nail holes on both the front and side of the units, so they remain in place if/when adjusted.

Carlon adjustable boxes are the most common you'll find, and are usually blue.




Arlington makes them a bit better (note the tab on the end of the screw that ensures it stays in place - see photo), but are almost always considerably more expensive than the Carlon boxes. Arlington boxes are typically gray colored. The Arlington boxes also use thicker plastic, FWIW.




Compare Arlington (above) to the Carlton boxes (below). Comparing these 2 pics you can see the differences in material thickness and design, and why the Arlington boxes are superior. That said, they are also more $ as previously mentioned.





Quote:
So would just adding insulation do nothing, is the double-drywall really what would cut down the noise? Or would just insulation help somewhat and double-drywall would improve things more? Thanks.
Double-drywall will have a more pronounced effect, especially with regards to lower frequencies. If you use a visco-elastic compound in between (e.g. Green Glue, Quiet Glue Pro), you will notice even more significant reductions in sound at all levels. The visco-elastic compounds have a greater effect at reducing noise in the mid to high frequency ranges (versus low), though most people use them for their sound damping qualities at low frequencies (still works very well, but not as big a difference in TL (Transmission Loss) as the mid and high freqs).

Reducing low frequency transfer is mostly an effect of adding mass and decoupling. Insulation tends to have a greater impact on mid to higher frequency noises (e.g. people talking). It won't do much for you at lower frequencies, though some types (notably cotton batting and rock wool) are more effective at all frequencies vs. loose fiberglass (e.g. pink fluffy). The reason most people don't use them is cost (2.5-4x the cost of the cheapo fiberglass insulation). You are generally better off simply adding more fiberglass insulation (less cost), unless you have space constraints and are willing to pay 2.5-4x the cost for a marginal improvement. Some people are.


Food-for-thought, here's another idea for you: consider adding 1st layer of 1/2" or 5/8" OSB and then 1 layer 1/2" or 5/8" drywall over it. Doing so will allow you to tack a nail or screw nearly anywhere in your home. Check with your building inspection dept. first, but they ought to allow it. Code only requires the interior wall to by gypsum or another fire resistant material. 1/2"-5/8" OSB should cost virtually the same as 1/2-5/8" drywall in most parts of the country.
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post #1469 of 1557 Old 03-21-2016, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
Is it worth the premium? (I still plan to install double drywall with furring channel and isolation clips)
I cannot say from experience, but I would think probably not given the fact sound will still travel around the joist cavities. Might be easier/faster to cut and put in place though (vs. drywall).

Why do you want to place mass in the joist cavities to begin with?
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post #1470 of 1557 Old 03-21-2016, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Brymo View Post
They are AFB I believe one bag is 80sq, so total of 160sq left over.
And what thickness?

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I was thinking of putting in new solid core doors. What else would I want to look for? I'm having to replace three doors as they are those cheap hallow core ones.
Steel doors are another option. Make sure you understand if a prospective door is truly "solid" core. At times, the door industry has some (IMHO) odd definitions of vocabulary. Steel doors in particular may actually be hollow inside or filled with various materials. Personally, I favor the look and feel of the solid wood doors more.

You could also look at exterior doors, which are slightly thicker (and heavier) than interior doors. And don't forget how the size of jambs, etc. will be impacted by using thicker doors.

If you have a double stud wall, it will give you some creative license with regards to how think you want to make it (presuming a single door and not a double/communicating door setup).
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