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post #1 of 22 Old 02-14-2014, 07:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Recessed lights are a pain. You want 'em but then again, they're just more holes.

We'd like the holes to be as small as possible to minimize the loss through the drywall hole.

We'd like to have this sealed up as well, with insulation laid over the top, so an IC rating is needed.

I'd welcome any thoughts on the attached HALO light fixture. This LED has the light of a 65W bulb, but the entire light assembly fits in an electrical "Old Work" box in the ceiling. This old work box can be sealed up, and can have insulation contact.

The hole is 4", so not bad.

This may eliminate the need for backer boxes altogether.


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post #2 of 22 Old 02-14-2014, 09:42 AM
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I just spent the last few days buying and returning several options to find the cheapest/best result for my room. While I am not doing any soundproofing, I feel my result is still better than big holes in the ceiling. I ended up going with these - http://www.menards.com/main/led/sylvania-9-watt-4-led-retrofit-600-lumens-1-pack/p-1934794-c-6341.htm. I like the 4" size better than 6, they just screw in to a 4" housing so it's a smaller hole in the ceiling like you mentioned. Instant on (which was a problem for several of the other options I tried, there was a short delay) fully dim able (again a problem for others, they were too bright when dimmed to full capacity). I haven't installed them yet so I don't have pictures, but after sampling several options, I am excited about these. Plus they were $13 off this week! biggrin.gif
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post #3 of 22 Old 02-14-2014, 11:33 AM
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I have seen a few builds starting to mention using lights like that and only requiring a work box. Would be pretty nice if you could just use a few putty pads to seal up the boxes and some caulk vs building backer boxes. I would have likely added more lights in my theater if I had gone down that right.

I think it's like the right move going forward assuming putty pad can stop the noise as well as a backer box.

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post #4 of 22 Old 02-14-2014, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm thinking this could be a big deal, so I'm opening this up to this sharp group. I figured experiences could be shared here for everyone's benefit.

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post #5 of 22 Old 02-14-2014, 11:42 AM
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definitely agreed- even a small backer box just containing the work box would be a lot easier build and work with. I wish I had researched these kind of lights about a year ago.

I am trying to remember whose theater build I saw these in - had a nice ceiling too. Maybe they will stop in and can share some thoughts.

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post #6 of 22 Old 02-14-2014, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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With a 4" hole in the drywall, and the ability to seal the work box with putty pads, I see no need for a backer box at all. That's why I'm excited

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post #7 of 22 Old 02-14-2014, 11:48 AM
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post #8 of 22 Old 02-14-2014, 11:57 AM
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So for this type of light, I wouldn't even need my recessed housing correct? I bought the housing but seems like I could just use a junction box and wire the lights in there. They sell the brackets without all the wiring for about 3 bucks, as opposed to $15-$20. How would the light do with direct contact with insulation though?
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post #9 of 22 Old 02-14-2014, 12:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Bing-Go

No recessed housing, no telescoping arms, no backer box. That's the potential this offers

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post #10 of 22 Old 02-14-2014, 12:35 PM
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I'm no electrician but is that up to code?
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post #11 of 22 Old 02-14-2014, 12:37 PM - Thread Starter
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See the PDF link in the first post.

This is a Cooper / Halo light fixture and that is their spec sheet.

I spoke with their engineer group before posting this, BTW.

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post #12 of 22 Old 02-14-2014, 02:10 PM
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I actually bought (and returned) a similar one at Home Depot and experimented with it. I also shared the excitement you feel Ted. It does not fit perfectly in all electrical boxes, As I recall a double gang old work box had an issue, I think the trim didn't cover the box corners.

The light does not dim to a level that is acceptable for show-time use, you will want them off. There was a slight buzzing sound when dimmed. My biggest complaint is they mount flush, so it really isn't a recessed light it is more of a dome light and looks like it.
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post #13 of 22 Old 02-14-2014, 02:39 PM - Thread Starter
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I have been spec-ing them in the 4 1/4" old work box.

So the .7" lens off the ceiling you find unattractive, is that right?

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post #14 of 22 Old 02-14-2014, 02:58 PM
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Correct. just not my style.
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post #15 of 22 Old 02-16-2014, 07:09 PM
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There are a couple different manufacturers making the same style of light . I bought a Sylvania 8 or 9 months ago , and used a similar product in my kitchen remodel . All fit in old work boxes ( at least 25 years old) and are working great . I like the style of the sylvania slightly better , it looks higher quality to me ( sorry I don't have a PN , I don't feel like pulling it out of the ceiling) . I have noticed a slight lag between flipping the switch and the light turning on if that bothers you , I don't hear any hum from any of them . Can't speak on the dimming as none of mine are on dimmers.

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post #16 of 22 Old 03-24-2014, 07:02 PM
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I'd be worried about heat sink issues with wrapping an LED fixture with putty. Heat dissipation is essential to avoiding failures. I am in the sign fabrication business and have been using LED's when they were first released as a neon replacement. Some things many don't know:

*Lifespan claims are largely wild guesses.
*LEDs essentially start their brightness degradation the second they turn on. It's largely unnoticeable, but they lose brightness over time.
*Heat is the enemy. The hotter they get, the faster they lose brightness. Get them too hot and they fail.

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post #17 of 22 Old 04-22-2014, 09:51 AM
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I purchased one of the Halo Surface Mount lights (albeit the 4" version) to see what it looks like, and have decided I plan to use them in my theater build.   They claim to dim to 6% with the appropriate Dimmer switches.   I chose the CRI of 90 so the coloring is slightly more real.  The 'temperature' is ~ 3000k, which is similar to incandescent but not the 2,700k I have seen referenced many times.

 

I am leaning towards building some type of backer boxes, I worry that in the ceiling the putty pads won't be sufficient.  I bought some 3/4" MDF yesterday to do the initial construction.  My soundproofing company supplies (Green Glue, etc) are scheduled to arrive at my home on Thursday.

 

In a traditional backer box, is the 'cement board' layer used for heat or weight?   If it was weight, given the much smaller size of this 'new' backer box, I might use two 'layers' of MDF.   If it is for heat/fire, then I guess I will need to go get some cement board.

 

I may play a bit with the design a bit, but, I am going to try to make a 3-4 layer 'flat' backer panel/box.   Think of it generically as 3, 6"x6" (or 7x7) squares green glued & attached together.   The 'bottom' (i.e., theater side) layer will have a cut out hole to mount the electric box.   The top two layers will only have a 'drilled' hole in them for the wire.   My ceiling structure of 3/4" OSB+GG+5/8" Drywall will also have the same cut out hole for the electric box.  My thought is then the depth of the Drywall Ceiling Baord + OSB Ceiling Board + bottom MDF layer will be the depth of the electric box, adn the extra two MDF layers provide the sound reduction benefit.  As I raise the OSB into place, I would run the wire through the initial MDF into the box.  I will need to tweak this plan slightly based on the final box depth, so, maybe adding a layer of something to get to the right size/depth. 

 

The other 'downside'/limitation is that these are only 'down lights', so, I will likely still need a few 'normal' can lights that have a pivoting bulb.   Although, I am going to look at  bit into Kitchen Under-Cabinet lights and small track lights to see if I can find anything for that purpose. 

 

When I get around to actually doing any of this, which may be awhile still, I'll post a few pictures of what I end up doing.

 

Kevin

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post #18 of 22 Old 05-08-2014, 10:30 PM
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Attached are images of what I am thinking in terms of how to use these Surface mount lights to minimize sound transmission.

 

This first photo, is the 3 layers of MDF (or could be OSB/ cement board, not sure which is best), which will be behind the two layers of 5/8" drywall (i.e., between room envelope & ceiling above).  The two 'rear'/top layers have only a small hole in them for the electric wire penetration.   The 3rd board is 3/4" in my case because the electric box I have is 2" deep. 

LEAD Technologies Inc. V1.01

 

This next picture is a profile view of these three pieces pressed together, with Green Glue (some of my 6, 5 gallon buckets from the soundproofingcompany.com). 

 

LEAD Technologies Inc. V1.01

 

 

This next picture shows them 'attached' to the drywall, I am imagining screwing them through the drywall before putting the drywall up, and as the drywall is being lifted into place, running the wire down through the small holes. 

LEAD Technologies Inc. V1.01

 

Here are pictures of the box I plan to use, and a few pictures of the light itself:LEAD Technologies Inc. V1.01

 

LEAD Technologies Inc. V1.01

 

 

These next two pictures are 'theoretically' the electric box installed in 2 layers of 5/8" drywall (of course, with GG).   I say 'theoretically', because, all I have on hand is a small 1/2" drywall piece, so, I used a 3/4" MDF piece... the combined width of these being 10/8ths = 2 layers of 5/8" drywall.  So, bear with the lack of correct materials, but the measurements are the same.

LEAD Technologies Inc. V1.01

 

LEAD Technologies Inc. V1.01

 

 

 

 

This next picture shows what the light would look like as it were being wired & ready to be installed, this shows how 'shallow' the light is. 

 

LEAD Technologies Inc. V1.01

 

 

 

 

The final picture is the light after installation, when mounted flush with the ceiling.

 

LEAD Technologies Inc. V1.01

 

 

 

This whole sequence obviously is more labor & material intensive than simply using Putty Pads.   Of course, the 'labor' isn't horrible, I cut my boards very roughly/quickly 8" x 8", unlike a backer box which needs to be somewhat 'square', these are pancaked together so precision isn't a huge deal.  A hole saw then used to cut out the hole to mount the box in.

 

I would also use acoustic caulk in the holes & around the box to provide that extra bit of sound sealing. 

 

Do you think this would be much better than Putty Pads, or yield a very similar result?  Obviously, not going to waste my time if there isn't much benefit.

 

Also, the 4" and 6" lights are the same mounting options.   I have seen many, many, of the theaters using 4", I have always wondered if that was simply a better aesthetic look choice, or if it was to 'minimize' the size of the penetration in the ceiling.    I am somewhat leaning towards 3, 4" lights at my screen, and then using 6" lights (ever so slightly brighter capability) over the seating areas.   These of course will all be dimmable/zoned (likely Grafik Eye QS).

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post #19 of 22 Old 05-15-2014, 06:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White View Post

Bing-Go

No recessed housing, no telescoping arms, no backer box. That's the potential this offers


Hi Ted,

 

Any thoughts on my plan and whether this would be fairly good sound reduction?  One person had noted some mild concern about using MDF and putting the box in MDF and if there would be fire hazard.    They thought the lower heat of LED might make it okay, but still some concern, so I might end up just using Fire Rated Drywall and Cement Board. If you happen to have thoughts whether mdf is a concern, those would be appreciated as well.

 

 

Thanks,

Kevin

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post #20 of 22 Old 06-13-2014, 09:47 AM
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Well, I last night I made my 12 'backer boxes', which maybe I would call more of a 'Backer Sandwich", it took about an hour in total.

I ended up with this configuration:
3/4" MDF Solid with Green Glue
5/8" Drywall Solid w Green Glue
3/8" Drywall w/ Hole w Green Glue
3/8" Dyrwall w/ Hole

I used this based on the concern expressed about Fire hazard, figuring the fire-rated drywall would be the way to go - and frankly, much easier to 'cut' that as well, so, doing it again - I probably would do t2o layers of the 'solid' Drywall.

Then with the two ceiling layers of 5/8" drywall, the box depth will match my ceiling depth with my 'backer' boxes.

Here are the parts in there individual piece forms...


Here are the parts with Green Glue applied... "Learning", I applied the GG to the 'fronts', defined as the part on the Theater side vs the 'ceiling/subfloor' side of the MDF, 5/8" Drywall, and the 3/8" Drywall... This meant when I did the 5/8" drywall 'all over', the 3/8" light box 'hole' had GG all over. So, to do it again, I would put the GG on the 'theater side' of the two 3/8" drywall layers, and the theater side of the 5/8" drywall layer..



Here is what the 'final' product looks like. These will be installed onto the subfloor side of the drywall in the correct locations before the Drywall is lifted into place. The circle at the top is the Surface Mount LED light.



We'll see how this all works out.
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post #21 of 22 Old 06-13-2014, 01:05 PM
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I just finished remodeling my theater (well, almost, there always seem to be those pesky little detail items on the punch list) and I really didn't like my 6 inch recessed fixtures (always thought they looked ugly) and wanted to go with some pinhole lights, but I didn't want to have to mess with any ceiling repair work. I ended up finding these trim kits:

http://totalrecessedlighting.com/6-i...hole-trim.html

These worked perfectly with my Juno IC22 6" cans and came in a black finish to blend in with (as in completely disappear into) my black-painted ceiling. The only other thing I needed was to switch out my PAR38 halogen bulbs to PAR20 halogens. They look first-class and the lighting effect is far more dramatic and subdued. I also have a chandelier of sorts in the center on a separate zone that I can use when I want full lighting in the theater. These all connect to my Grafik Eye dimmer for different scenes, as do my screen lights (also recessed, this time I used LED multicolor-programmable MR16s that I added fixtures for).

Changing my other lights to LEDs seemed like a pain in the butt for very little gain. I have no issues trying to dim them, they work well with the Grafik Eye (the screen LEDs needed an interface switch and don't dim, but I didn't need them to although the dim-on and dim-off effect I get with all my other theater lights would have been cool on the screen) and from a power-consumption and lamp-life perspective they get so little use it's just not an issue.
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post #22 of 22 Old 07-31-2014, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by helmsman View Post
I just finished remodeling my theater (well, almost, there always seem to be those pesky little detail items on the punch list) and I really didn't like my 6 inch recessed fixtures (always thought they looked ugly) and wanted to go with some pinhole lights, but I didn't want to have to mess with any ceiling repair work. I ended up finding these trim kits:

http://totalrecessedlighting.com/6-i...hole-trim.html

These worked perfectly with my Juno IC22 6" cans and came in a black finish to blend in with (as in completely disappear into) my black-painted ceiling. The only other thing I needed was to switch out my PAR38 halogen bulbs to PAR20 halogens. They look first-class and the lighting effect is far more dramatic and subdued. I also have a chandelier of sorts in the center on a separate zone that I can use when I want full lighting in the theater. These all connect to my Grafik Eye dimmer for different scenes, as do my screen lights (also recessed, this time I used LED multicolor-programmable MR16s that I added fixtures for).

Changing my other lights to LEDs seemed like a pain in the butt for very little gain. I have no issues trying to dim them, they work well with the Grafik Eye (the screen LEDs needed an interface switch and don't dim, but I didn't need them to although the dim-on and dim-off effect I get with all my other theater lights would have been cool on the screen) and from a power-consumption and lamp-life perspective they get so little use it's just not an issue.
Would love to see some pics of the light and the pattern/beam they put out?

Thanks for the suggestion

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