The Ginky Weeds Home Theater Design and Construction - AVS Forum
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Old 05-05-2014, 09:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Welcome to my theater build thread. I’ve been reading lots of other build threads here and have absorbed a world of good information that is helping to feed my design. First, some background. Some of you are probably wondering what in the world “Ginky Weeds” are. Simply put, it’s a term synonymous with “The Boondocks”.



We live in the country, but within easy driving distance of reasonable shopping and restaurants. Importantly, including both Menard’s and Lowe’s stores. We’re on five acres of land with neighbors, but none in close proximity, so no concerns for noise complaints from them. We bought our house in 2007 and it has taken me this long to begin the HT because a) we had a water problem in the basement soon after we bought it and had to install a waterproofing system, taking this long to gain enough confidence in dryness to finish the basement; and b) a bathroom and two bedrooms were the first priority for my wife. With the bathroom complete and the bedrooms well on their way, it’s now time to start the theater. Plus, I’m a planner and needed a lot of time to research aspects of design, construction and desired electronic equipment.

I have collected most all of the audio gear required. I’m planning a 7.2 audio configuration with Klipsch Heritage LCR speakers (La Scala I) and a pair of Bill Fitzmaurice THT subwoofers located behind a screen wall with acoustically transparent screen. Surround speakers are also Klipsch Heritage (Heresy I). Electronics include Sherbourn PA 7-350 amp (7 x 350WPC), 4Z-75 amp (150 WPC for subs), and PT-7030 processor. The remaining piece required to complete the audio gear is a CD/SACD/DVD player. I’m planning an Oppo 103D for that function, which also leads to the video side of the plan. With the Oppo source I’m planning a projector with lens memory to illuminate a 120” wide 2.35:1 scope AT screen. If I had to buy today, the PJ would most likely be a JVC 4910. But I’ll be watching with interest this fall as the new models for next year are announced. New offerings could change my selection by the time I’m ready to install the projector.

The space is choppier than I’d like with more doors in the room than desirable. Unfortunately, I think they are pretty much unavoidable, since they provide the only possible access to those rooms (furnace room, storage room, mechanical room, and bathroom) as you’ll see in my preliminary Sketchup designs below. The basic HT space is roughly 18’ wide by 20’ long to the screen wall with about 4’ behind it and an 8’ ceiling. I’ve talked with The Soundproofing Company about sound control and am planning a “room within a room” to minimize sound transfer, including isolation clips in the ceiling, on one of the walls and in wall to ceiling interfaces. Also two layers of drywall with Green Glue sandwich. Note that the sketches do not accurately reflect the surrounding walls. There are poured concrete walls on two sides and a 2x6” load bearing wall between the HT and the bedrooms/furnace room. The area above the theater is the living room and kitchen, so I need to be as careful as possible to control sound transmission through the basement ceiling and living room floor. Here are my first attempts at design. I’m not real swift with Sketchup yet!









This doesn’t show the challenge of existing HVAC ducts that I want to redesign/reroute, especially in the stage area above the screen wall. Here’s a picture that will give you better idea of that challenge. The ducts are at the far end of this picture. Ignore the mess, it's a work in progress!



So in addition to building a dead vent system for HVAC in the room, I’m hoping to replace existing rectangular section sheet metal heat and cold air return ducts with insulated flex ducts that can be relocated up and between the ceiling/floor joists. I also need to decide on whether to put a door at the entrance to the hallway to the bathroom or to continue with “room in a room” all the way back to the bathroom that then requires me to deal with soundproofing two doors instead of one, as shown in the existing sketches.

Once I get those issues sorted out, I’ll feel in a better position to move on to some of the finishing aspects. I guess that’s enough info for a start and sorry to be long winded. I will appreciate your inputs/critiques and I’ll especially appreciate those shared experiences that help me to avoid unforeseen problems!

Cheers!

Chuck

"The Ginky Weeds" Theater Design and Construction Thread
Sherbourn PT-7030, PA 7-350, PA 7-150, PA 4Z-75, C-12, Oppo BDP-103D
Klipsch La Scala I LCR with Crites AA crossovers & tweeters; Heresy I S&R surrounds with Crites crossover upgrades
Bill Fitzmaurice DIY THT subwoofers (2)
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Old 05-05-2014, 10:07 AM
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Interesting collection of speakers. Just an idea on those surrounds. If it isn't too late you might be able recess inches into the wall and whittle away at the size of those columns.
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Old 05-05-2014, 10:19 AM
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Interesting collection of speakers. Just an idea on those surrounds. If it isn't too late you might be able recess inches into the wall and whittle away at the size of those columns.

This is a great idea. ^

Originally I was concerned with the size of my side and rear speakers (cabinet was bigger for what I wanted) because it would make the columns too big and less attractive. I factored in and considered recess them into the walls a bit (2") and then also the depth that is eaten up by fabric panels on the walls between the columns and this totally brings even a huge enclosure size into do-able area. You can basically bring the walls out a little with the fabric panels (which also allow you to hide sound absorber or treatments) which will make the columns also seem less deep (if you go that route)

BTW, what program did you use to make your rendering plans ?

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Old 05-05-2014, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for your initial responses. Big, I thought about recessing the speakers into the wall, but didn't include that feature in my first design because I was concerned it would compromise the soundproofing efforts. I thought only of pushing the speakers closer to the existing walls and thought if I "break" the continuity of the inside wall of the "room within a room" to accommodate the recess, it would become a path for sound transmission outside the room. If you and Mfusick are suggesting that I build the inside walls closer together with more gap behind them to thin the columns, I guess I didn't think about that approach. I'll take a look at how that would change inside room dimensions and see if it works. It's not to late for anything, by the way, since I haven't started framing yet.

Cheers!

Chuck

"The Ginky Weeds" Theater Design and Construction Thread
Sherbourn PT-7030, PA 7-350, PA 7-150, PA 4Z-75, C-12, Oppo BDP-103D
Klipsch La Scala I LCR with Crites AA crossovers & tweeters; Heresy I S&R surrounds with Crites crossover upgrades
Bill Fitzmaurice DIY THT subwoofers (2)
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Old 05-05-2014, 12:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

This is a great idea. ^

BTW, what program did you use to make your rendering plans ?

The renderings were done with Sketchup. Its free for home use and available here: http://www.sketchup.com/

Cheers!

Chuck

"The Ginky Weeds" Theater Design and Construction Thread
Sherbourn PT-7030, PA 7-350, PA 7-150, PA 4Z-75, C-12, Oppo BDP-103D
Klipsch La Scala I LCR with Crites AA crossovers & tweeters; Heresy I S&R surrounds with Crites crossover upgrades
Bill Fitzmaurice DIY THT subwoofers (2)
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Old 05-05-2014, 03:16 PM
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Backer box for a recessed speaker to maintain the soundproofed shell. Screwed and glued only to the double layer of drywall.


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Old 05-05-2014, 04:17 PM - Thread Starter
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I like it. Great idea. Thanks Jeff!

Edit: Looks like I'll have to build frames into the studs to provide clearance for the backer boxes. The Heresys are 15 1/2" wide, so they won't fit between the studs on 16" centers. Or I could do 24" centers for my inner walls. That would work a lot better, wouldn't it? Any potential downside to 24" centers, unless the local building codes prohibit?

Chuck

"The Ginky Weeds" Theater Design and Construction Thread
Sherbourn PT-7030, PA 7-350, PA 7-150, PA 4Z-75, C-12, Oppo BDP-103D
Klipsch La Scala I LCR with Crites AA crossovers & tweeters; Heresy I S&R surrounds with Crites crossover upgrades
Bill Fitzmaurice DIY THT subwoofers (2)
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Old 05-05-2014, 06:24 PM - Thread Starter
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PS: Despite the fact that you see drywall installed on the ceiling and one wall in the picture above, that will all be coming down so that I can install clips and channel to decouple them. Since I haven't started framing, I'm totally open to suggested changes at this point. I didn't want to discourage any suggestions smile.gif

I'm particularly interested in recommendations on the location of the door(s) in the hallway to the left of the screen wall.

Cheers!

Chuck

"The Ginky Weeds" Theater Design and Construction Thread
Sherbourn PT-7030, PA 7-350, PA 7-150, PA 4Z-75, C-12, Oppo BDP-103D
Klipsch La Scala I LCR with Crites AA crossovers & tweeters; Heresy I S&R surrounds with Crites crossover upgrades
Bill Fitzmaurice DIY THT subwoofers (2)
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Old 05-06-2014, 06:50 AM
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When you install your clips they will be spaced 48 inches apart. 24OC should be fine and you will stagger the clips row to row on the channel. You do need to check your local codes on framing standards. It also makes a difference load bearing versus partition wall.
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Old 05-06-2014, 08:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, the righthand wall in the picture is a 2x6" load bearing wall. I'll be using clips and channel to decouple it and it will have one column. The other two walls that will have columns on them are not load bearing . The one on the left will be a decoupled stud wall inside the concrete foundation wall. The wall in the back where the rear surrounds and columns will be located will be a new stud wall inside the existing wall that backs up to the stairwell. I'll check local codes, but I'm pretty confident I can use 24" OC construction for all three of those walls. And, if so, that will be my plan.

Thanks!

Chuck

"The Ginky Weeds" Theater Design and Construction Thread
Sherbourn PT-7030, PA 7-350, PA 7-150, PA 4Z-75, C-12, Oppo BDP-103D
Klipsch La Scala I LCR with Crites AA crossovers & tweeters; Heresy I S&R surrounds with Crites crossover upgrades
Bill Fitzmaurice DIY THT subwoofers (2)
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Old 05-08-2014, 06:52 AM
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you will just have to stud it out like a window on that wall so to put the speaker bok does not hit any of the studs with a header and what not to disperse the load.

Also looks like the rears are to close together.

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Old 05-09-2014, 07:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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you will just have to stud it out like a window on that wall so to put the speaker bok does not hit any of the studs with a header and what not to disperse the load.

Also looks like the rears are to close together.

Thanks for your comments. I have some room to play with the separation of the rears. I saw that same recommendation on the Dolby website. THX is a bit different. Reading their website, they recommend a 60 degree angle between the rears to the LP for Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master Audio. That fits the 150 degree max in your diagrams.



However, for just plain 7.1 Surround Sound, they recommend the rears be placed next to each otherl



So, for the initial design I kind of averaged the two approaches. I can space them more, but unless my high school trigonometry fails me, I don't think I can get them to the recommended separation. I'll take a closer look at this and report back.

Cheers!

Chuck

"The Ginky Weeds" Theater Design and Construction Thread
Sherbourn PT-7030, PA 7-350, PA 7-150, PA 4Z-75, C-12, Oppo BDP-103D
Klipsch La Scala I LCR with Crites AA crossovers & tweeters; Heresy I S&R surrounds with Crites crossover upgrades
Bill Fitzmaurice DIY THT subwoofers (2)
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Old 05-09-2014, 08:39 AM
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this is from the MLP so if you are sitting in back row you are good to go I guess. But then your sides are too far forward. The sides are near perfect for the front row. I did my theater for MLP on front row which pushed my speakers in the rear further apart. My concern would be spreading them out unless you put acoustic panels on the walls of the cubby there would be a whole lot of reflection. Any way you can do the side walls of the cubby 45 degrees. This would help with the reflections. What is the cubby for anyway?

Also why not enter the furnace room through the bed room. That is how my house is no issue if you use a solid corps pre framed exterior door that way it is good and sealed. Mine is an exterior door but the HVAC is in the attic space and all attic access doors in our county have to be solid core exterior.

edit I see now it is due to the bed rooms entriance why not lose the door there and make it full open you would just have to run a beam since the wall is load bearing
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Old 05-09-2014, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm designing around the MLP as well. That's why I said I don't think I can get the separation of the rear surrounds to the prescribed distance. The "cubby" results from the need to provide entry to the bedrooms and I decided to wall it off in the theater so I don't have to do yet another door in the theater to the bedroom entrance. With that premise, I thought I would make it symmetrical for the look of the room, the riser and the rear speaker columns. I figured it would require room treatment, but it might be easier with the symmetry. It also provides space for recline of the second row seats.


That's where the entry to the furnace room is now and the bedrooms are already done, so I'd have major tear up to change it. I'm not totally happy with all the doors involved, but will just have to do the best possible job with soundproofing them, especially the one to the furnace room.

Cheers!

Chuck

"The Ginky Weeds" Theater Design and Construction Thread
Sherbourn PT-7030, PA 7-350, PA 7-150, PA 4Z-75, C-12, Oppo BDP-103D
Klipsch La Scala I LCR with Crites AA crossovers & tweeters; Heresy I S&R surrounds with Crites crossover upgrades
Bill Fitzmaurice DIY THT subwoofers (2)
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Old 05-09-2014, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Chuck Miller View Post

Thanks for your comments. I have some room to play with the separation of the rears. I saw that same recommendation on the Dolby website. THX is a bit different. Reading their website, they recommend a 60 degree angle between the rears to the LP for Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master Audio. That fits the 150 degree max in your diagrams.



However, for just plain 7.1 Surround Sound, they recommend the rears be placed next to each otherl



So, for the initial design I kind of averaged the two approaches. I can space them more, but unless my high school trigonometry fails me, I don't think I can get them to the recommended separation. I'll take a closer look at this and report back.

Cheers!

Chuck

Here's a composite of all the speaker placement recommendations. The rear surrounds centered on rear wall at 180 degrees is based on the old 6 channel THX setup. Psychacoustic research from Toole and others has shown better envelopment is achieved by spacing the rear surrounds at 135-150.

Acoustic Frontiers: design and creation of high performance listening rooms, home theaters and project studios for discerning audio/video enthusiasts.
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Old 05-10-2014, 05:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Nyal for your input. After reading the materials on you site, I'm relooking at the entire theater layout in an attempt to optimize viewing and listening angles. I'll keep you posted on progress.

Cheers!

Chuck

"The Ginky Weeds" Theater Design and Construction Thread
Sherbourn PT-7030, PA 7-350, PA 7-150, PA 4Z-75, C-12, Oppo BDP-103D
Klipsch La Scala I LCR with Crites AA crossovers & tweeters; Heresy I S&R surrounds with Crites crossover upgrades
Bill Fitzmaurice DIY THT subwoofers (2)
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Old 05-11-2014, 11:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Any comments on my current rack design and speaker placement???? wink.gif



Happy Mothers Day to all!

Chuck

"The Ginky Weeds" Theater Design and Construction Thread
Sherbourn PT-7030, PA 7-350, PA 7-150, PA 4Z-75, C-12, Oppo BDP-103D
Klipsch La Scala I LCR with Crites AA crossovers & tweeters; Heresy I S&R surrounds with Crites crossover upgrades
Bill Fitzmaurice DIY THT subwoofers (2)
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Old 05-14-2014, 06:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post

Here's a composite of all the speaker placement recommendations. The rear surrounds centered on rear wall at 180 degrees is based on the old 6 channel THX setup. Psychacoustic research from Toole and others has shown better envelopment is achieved by spacing the rear surrounds at 135-150.

I've looked at a lot of alternatives for screen size, speaker locations and main seating distances. It appears that the approach that hits "the sweet spot" for viewing angle and surround sound listening angles is moving the MLP back a foot to 11.5' and increasing the screen size to 130" width (scope). L & R speakers would be located just inside the edges of the AT scope screen. Resulting key measures are: 50.4 degree horizontal viewing angle, 51 degree listening angle MLP to L & R, and 142.5 degree listening angle MLP to rear surrounds. Side surrounds would remain just behind the MLP. These are all within or very close to Nyal's recommendations and was the best all around approach I could come up with.

This leads to another question. If I was buying a projector today, it would likely be a JVC 4910. I want the best possible 2D picture and don't care about 3D. I've been advised that the max. screen width I should allow with the JVC and a unity gain AT screen is 120". So, if I increase to 130" I'm in jeopardy of having too dim an image. Do any of you have experience with a current JVC PJ with a unity gain scope screen at 130" width that you can share? I know it is dependent on each individual's taste for image brightness, but I'm interested if there are some of you have are happy with the brightness of this combination.

I'll appreciate your comments!

Chuck

"The Ginky Weeds" Theater Design and Construction Thread
Sherbourn PT-7030, PA 7-350, PA 7-150, PA 4Z-75, C-12, Oppo BDP-103D
Klipsch La Scala I LCR with Crites AA crossovers & tweeters; Heresy I S&R surrounds with Crites crossover upgrades
Bill Fitzmaurice DIY THT subwoofers (2)
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Old 05-14-2014, 09:58 AM
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Can't answer your brightness question from personal experience, but 130" wide is the equivalent of a 150" diagonal 16:9 screen which is verging on huge. Projector Central gives a range of 10 to 6 lumens for the JVC 4910 depending on mounting location. Not sure how accurate their ratings are, but at any rate definately on the dim side, even before the bulb ages. A thumbs up to the suggested viewing angle, but the size appears to be too large for unity gain.

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Old 05-14-2014, 12:05 PM
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I've looked at a lot of alternatives for screen size, speaker locations and main seating distances. It appears that the approach that hits "the sweet spot" for viewing angle and surround sound listening angles is moving the MLP back a foot to 11.5' and increasing the screen size to 130" width (scope). L & R speakers would be located just inside the edges of the AT scope screen. Resulting key measures are: 50.4 degree horizontal viewing angle, 51 degree listening angle MLP to L & R, and 142.5 degree listening angle MLP to rear surrounds. Side surrounds would remain just behind the MLP. These are all within or very close to Nyal's recommendations and was the best all around approach I could come up with.

This leads to another question. If I was buying a projector today, it would likely be a JVC 4910. I want the best possible 2D picture and don't care about 3D. I've been advised that the max. screen width I should allow with the JVC and a unity gain AT screen is 120". So, if I increase to 130" I'm in jeopardy of having too dim an image. Do any of you have experience with a current JVC PJ with a unity gain scope screen at 130" width that you can share? I know it is dependent on each individual's taste for image brightness, but I'm interested if there are some of you have are happy with the brightness of this combination.

I'll appreciate your comments!

Chuck

The scientific way to do this, and the way I do it when I do video design for a client, is to look at the CALIBRATED lumens output of the projector. Calibrated means when the projector has been adjusted for a white point of 6500K and color points that meet REC709 (aka D65.REC709). This is the home 'standard' to which all HDTV and BluRays are authored. Calibrated is always less than spec sheet lumens, sometimes significantly so. For example the Epson 6030 is spec sheet 2400 lumens, calibrated it's around 700. A good source for calibrated lumens is projectorreviews.com.

Once you have calibrated projector lumens you then calculate out the brightness expected back from the screen in terms of foot lamberts - see my blog article calculating screen brightness from projector lumens.

You need to factor in:
- what brightness target you are aiming for in foot lamberts
- an allowance for drop off in bulb brightness over lifetime
- screen area (which increases rapidly as you go up in width!)
- screen gain (noting that AT screens are nearly always over specified in terms of gain. You'll be lucky getting unity gain from any AT woven screen on the market)
- losses due to how far back (i.e. where in the throw range) you put the projector. Closest to screen is max brightness, it then drops off, sometimes a little, sometimes a lot as you go further back depending on manufacturer.

Really with that size screen the JVC will not work if you look at all the factors. I would probably not go larger than a 105" wide scope screen and maybe smaller. EDIT: New 2014 JVCs reporting higher calibrated lumens output, around 1200! http://www.projectorreviews.com/jvc/jvc-dla-rs4910-and-dla-rs49-projector-review/

Acoustic Frontiers: design and creation of high performance listening rooms, home theaters and project studios for discerning audio/video enthusiasts.
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Old 05-14-2014, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, Nyal, for your comments. If I want to get satisfactory brightness with the 120-130" AT screen, can you recommend another projector brand/model that would be bright enough?

Thanks,

Chuck

"The Ginky Weeds" Theater Design and Construction Thread
Sherbourn PT-7030, PA 7-350, PA 7-150, PA 4Z-75, C-12, Oppo BDP-103D
Klipsch La Scala I LCR with Crites AA crossovers & tweeters; Heresy I S&R surrounds with Crites crossover upgrades
Bill Fitzmaurice DIY THT subwoofers (2)
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Old 05-14-2014, 03:39 PM
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Thanks, Nyal, for your comments. If I want to get satisfactory brightness with the 120-130" AT screen, can you recommend another projector brand/model that would be bright enough?

Thanks,

Chuck

One of the Sony PJs, or if you have more $$, a SIM2 or Runco DLP. EDIT: New 2014 JVCs reporting increased cal lumens output: http://www.projectorreviews.com/jvc/jvc-dla-rs4910-and-dla-rs49-projector-review/

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Old 05-16-2014, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Chuck Miller View Post


Is that the only bathroom on the floor?

How much room is on the opposite side stairway? Would you have enough room for the theater behind the stairway if you moved the second guest bedroom and flipped the theater ninety degrees?

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Old 05-16-2014, 08:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BllDo View Post

Is that the only bathroom on the floor?

How much room is on the opposite side stairway? Would you have enough room for the theater behind the stairway if you moved the second guest bedroom and flipped the theater ninety degrees?

Yes, that's the only bathroom in the basement. It would flow better if the bedrooms were where the theater will be, but it won't work. There isn't enough room behind the stairway for the theater, only about 10'. Plus, to move all that around we'd have to disturb a load-bearing wall. So, thanks for the idea, but I'm afraid it won't work here.

Chuck

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Old 11-10-2014, 08:12 PM - Thread Starter
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I've obviously been away for a few months. Had other priorities that popped up over the summer. Now that I'm almost ready to jump back into the theater planning and construction, I'm stopped in my tracks by thinking I should layout speaker placement to accommodate the new 3D surround audio formats. Dolby Atmos wants in-ceiling speakers. Auro-3D wants height speakers with a single VOG on the ceiling. And I don't know yet what DTS-UHD will require, except I'm hoping they use a common setup with Dolby, as they have in the past.


Are any of you struggling with the same dilemma at this point in your designs? Any recommendations on speaker locations to accommodate all the new audio suspects? Or just be patient and wait for them to settle out?


PS: I personally like the Auro-3D approach because it would allow me to use virtually all timbre matched speakers, whereas the ceiling speakers required for Atmos are a challenge from that standpoint.


Chuck

"The Ginky Weeds" Theater Design and Construction Thread
Sherbourn PT-7030, PA 7-350, PA 7-150, PA 4Z-75, C-12, Oppo BDP-103D
Klipsch La Scala I LCR with Crites AA crossovers & tweeters; Heresy I S&R surrounds with Crites crossover upgrades
Bill Fitzmaurice DIY THT subwoofers (2)
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