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post #1 of 57 Old 06-09-2014, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
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So, here is where I am at. I'm creating a home theater room in my basement.  Good start is there are no windows.  Bad part 2 doors to deal with.  

 

Room Size  15'4 by 12'6

 

I have decided (After lots and lots of research) to do the following.  For soundproofing

 

- Use Roxul Insulation in between the studs.

 

- Use Resilient Channel's (Not the clips_ If you are going to give me the argument about the clips, I would appreciate backed up verifiable data with links to the research and the tests.  (Yes I know the correct way to install this as I've done it before)

 

-  Mass Loaded Vinyl 1LB

 

- Quietrock 5/8 ES (I know people on these boards prefer the double drywall with green glue, however since I'm doing this myself and have read the green glue is easy to screw up if you don't properly apply.  Plus I would prefer to save as much space as possible.  

 

I figure I will add the mass loaded vinyl on the back of the quietrock and place on the resilient channel's around the room and the ceiling. 

 

For the Ceiling I'm actually able to make a 2nd ceiling lower than the studs (Very high ceiling basement) so this ceiling will not actually be touching the joists of the house.  Thus I don't believe I even need the resilient channel on the ceiling, because Ultimately I'm making a ceiling within a ceiling.  

 

Next question does anyone know how much weight the resilient channel can hold?  Any thoughts are appreciated.  

 

I'm also going to put the sub on a platform with the seating, which should create some type of decoupling affect.  

 

As for the doors, I'm planning on using exterior whether proof doors to creat an airtight seal.  

 

Thanks for any thoughts help, or flaws you see in the plan to this point.  

 

All lights will be in the walls (none in the ceiling) I will likely be putting back speakers and mid speaker in ceiling however this is subject to change.  

 

Let the nitpicking begin.  Thanks in advance to all that give any advice.  

 

Also any suggestions on Caulk and better where to find it, the place I was able to get most of my stuff had some poor options in this regard.  

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post #2 of 57 Old 06-09-2014, 06:39 PM
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"Let the nitpicking begin."

Not a super friendly request for information for your 1st post, but welcome to AVS Forums. wink.gif

Your design will not give you the desired results. Start with Soundproofing 101.

Which includes good information on:

Resilent Channel

and

Furring Channel with Resilient Clips

What will your new joists rest on? Something rigged to the existing walls? That would be a waste, as sound will transfer from your walls to your old joists anyway. A room-within-a-room is a much better option. Or go with Clips & Furring Channel.

Only a few other soundproofing things to think about - doors (why 2?), HVAC, Return Vents, Lighting, outlets. A sub on the seating platform is not recommended - isolate the sub platform and fill with sand.

Perhaps post a plan, pictures and other information.



Edit: BTW - Green Glue is very easy to use. Your information source was incorrect.
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post #3 of 57 Old 06-09-2014, 07:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the response.  As for HVAC and return vents.  There is no HVAC system going into the room, and it's actually attached to a room under the garage that is isolated and will act as a cool air return.  As for the the sub on the seating platform that was decided after talking to a few people that design home theaters who said that it can isolate while giving the people in the room a fun experience as well.  If people feel otherwise please I'm all ears to hear thoughts as to why it's a bad idea. 

 

As for the ceiling I was actually thinking of putting the 2nd inner ceiling on the resilient channels so as you mention to not have a rigid connection.  

 

The lighting will be 4 scones (is that the spelling?) 2 on each side walls.  No lights in the ceiling, however I am debating the placement of the back and middle speakers (they are in wall/ceiling speakers) in the ceiling.  Thoughts on placement of the speakers would be helpful as well.  (They are firing downward and I would seal with acoustical caulk.)

 

 

In regards to the resilient channel vs Clips debate I've read a few threads, and many of the actual data sheets from tested products and so unless someone can point me to something that has been scientifically proven that shows a drastic difference, I don't see being swayed on this point.  Not trying to be a dick, but numbers are numbers.

 

Thank you again for all that respond.

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post #4 of 57 Old 06-10-2014, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badger985 View Post

- Quietrock 5/8 ES (I know people on these boards prefer the double drywall with green glue, however since I'm doing this myself and have read the green glue is easy to screw up if you don't properly apply.  Plus I would prefer to save as much space as possible.

If you are doing it yourself, and sold on the idea of damped drywall, I would do the GG + DD. The glue is terribly messy and I won't vouch that it actually does anything, but it is better value than Quietrock and is pretty hard to screw up. Where it can get screwed up is if you hire out drywall and aren't there to supervise - you may not get what you paid for. Quietrock is pre-fabbed, but it's more expensive. The pre-fab avoids onsite assembly, which would be an advantage if you were hiring the work out (but you pay quite a bit for the pre-fab). With DIY you can keep costs down & quality reasonably high by giving a ****. At some point skill becomes the limit with DIY, but GG application is idiot proof if you remotely care about what you are doing. I would do GG vs Quietrock for DIY.

And I would buy from Ted & John at soundproofing company again. They are out to make a buck, same as everyone that combs AVS trying to drum up business, but they do provide a lot value add. They include free application guides that are higher quality than you get with some professional plans. But get everything you need, including questions answered before the sale. They are extremely helpful presales, with great documentation, but not so much post sales (presumably busy helping new pre-sales customers).

 

 

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post #5 of 57 Old 06-10-2014, 05:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the advice, I appreciate the idea with GG & being idiot proof.  However you mention if I am set on Damped walls?, is there another way you would suggest?  I simple don't have the space to create a room within a room.  However I did start ripping down one wall and the framing already was created as double studs so I may have some luck on my side,  I will not know until get the rest of the walls down.  

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post #6 of 57 Old 06-10-2014, 06:02 PM
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Creating a barrier for sound energy that occurs from sources both within and outside the room requires a completely different set of technologies than dealing with energy inside the room. Barrier technology is about the transmission of vibration through materials. The density and the arrangement of those materials to create the necessary vibration reductions is a skill set that requires much experience, actual builds, and vibrational data.

Have you ever considered MDF, which stands for multiple density fiberboard. It is really 30" of saw dust compressed using heat and glue . The density of a commercial grade MDF for a 1" thickness is 4.4 lbs / sq. ft. It is much easier to work with and comes in many thicknesses. It also has a different "sound" to it inside the room, especially with frequencies below 500 cycles. Our data shows that Its vibrational reducing properties are much better than sheet rock.

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post #7 of 57 Old 06-10-2014, 07:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Never heard of MDF, is there evidence of it's vibration reducing properties?  Has anyone else used the MDF item?  how were the results?

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post #8 of 57 Old 06-10-2014, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badger985 View Post

you mention if I am set on Damped walls?, is there another way you would suggest?

Personally if I had to do mine over, I would use a layer of wood as the first layer. Keith Yates, in his AVS interview, said double drywall was misguided. He didn't elaborate how or why, or what he felt was correct, but since DD is the defacto AVS standard, a lot of people simply wrote him off. His portfolio includes screening rooms for George Lucas and Skywalker Sound, but almost everyone that posts here regularly has some form of a vested interest in DD, and especially GG being the "right" way to build a theater.

There are different schools of thought on what is best, and especially what is best for the money. So I was just saying if you're sold on DD, which is what all damped drywall is based on, then field assembly is the way to go for DIY (in my opinion).

 

 

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post #9 of 57 Old 06-10-2014, 09:38 PM - Thread Starter
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rabident,

 

that's interesting about wood.  How many layers would you do?  Would you use any drywall?  What if I was to put Plywood attached to the drywall?  Would this be better,  I am adding mass after all?

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post #10 of 57 Old 06-11-2014, 09:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Update --> So with some good fortune a few of the walls in the room were already double studded on separate frames due to beams being in the walls.

A couple questions -- Do I need to wrap the house support beams in MLV or encase them in some way so that they don't become problematic for my build?

Next my viewing wall is actually right infront of cinder blocks. People mention about creating a room within a room, however why cannot I not frame directly attached to the cinder block (I apologize if this is stupid), but from everything I've read cinderblocks are a great absorbant of energy so what would be losing?

I would love someone to explain the whole cinder block and whether to frame a new stud wall in front or not. Thanks for the help gang...
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post #11 of 57 Old 06-12-2014, 12:22 AM
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Never heard of MDF, is there evidence of it's vibration reducing properties?  Has anyone else used the MDF item?  how were the results?
FYI - most loudspeakers are made out of it...

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post #12 of 57 Old 06-12-2014, 09:26 AM
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rabident,

that's interesting about wood. How many layers would you do? Would you use any drywall? What if I was to put Plywood attached to the drywall? Would this be better, I am adding mass after all?
I plan to do use OSB on my first wall layer and Drywall as my 2nd layer, with Green Glue in between.

It has similar mass (albeit slightly less), but provides an 'all over' nailing/ screwing surface for wall treatments, columns, baseboard, etc. It is more expensive as OSB costs more than Drywall. As such, on my ceiling where i won't have anything to attach, I am using Double Drywall with Green Glue. Ted & John/ The SOund Proofing company do recommend attaching an OSB board in the location of the projector mount.

QUOTE
As for the ceiling I was actually thinking of putting the 2nd inner ceiling on the resilient channels so as you mention to not have a rigid connection.

Are you thinking resting / supporting the new ceiling joists (and associated drywall, etc) on the wall resilient channel? I would almost certainly think that would be way too heavy.

If you are thinking of adding 'joists' on ceiling applied resilient channel, why bother? If you have channel on the ceiling, just apply DW to the channel.

There is both Single Leg & Double Leg channel... single leg being slightly more efficient, double leg having greater weight capacity. Single leg basically means the channel has a single 'screw' hole per stud/joist, whereas the double leg has two 'screw holes' per stud/ joist. So, 2x as many contact points for a) sound transmission and b) weight support.
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post #13 of 57 Old 06-15-2014, 07:41 PM - Thread Starter
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I plan to do use OSB on my first wall layer and Drywall as my 2nd layer, with Green Glue in between.

It has similar mass (albeit slightly less), but provides an 'all over' nailing/ screwing surface for wall treatments, columns, baseboard, etc. It is more expensive as OSB costs more than Drywall. As such, on my ceiling where i won't have anything to attach, I am using Double Drywall with Green Glue. Ted & John/ The SOund Proofing company do recommend attaching an OSB board in the location of the projector mount.

QUOTE
As for the ceiling I was actually thinking of putting the 2nd inner ceiling on the resilient channels so as you mention to not have a rigid connection.

Are you thinking resting / supporting the new ceiling joists (and associated drywall, etc) on the wall resilient channel? I would almost certainly think that would be way too heavy.

If you are thinking of adding 'joists' on ceiling applied resilient channel, why bother? If you have channel on the ceiling, just apply DW to the channel.

There is both Single Leg & Double Leg channel... single leg being slightly more efficient, double leg having greater weight capacity. Single leg basically means the channel has a single 'screw' hole per stud/joist, whereas the double leg has two 'screw holes' per stud/ joist. So, 2x as many contact points for a) sound transmission and b) weight support.
Kevin,

Thanks for the insight, as this is always being refined. The current ceiling is going to be constructed and attached to the interior walls that have been created and decoupled from the rest of the house & basement. It may have one attachment in the center of the room to the ceiling joists of the constructed house for support in the middle however that should be it. Thus the room is actually turning out to be far more separated space from the rest of the house then originally imagined. In addition the room will have a 2 door entry system, with the inner door being a weather seal solid core wood door.

Thus I do not intend on using any resilient channel as the entire room will be on separate frame, with minimal attachment to framing of the rest of the house. The ceiling will actually be the following

1 Sheet QuietRock Drywall
1 Layer MLV

Attached to a separated Frame with Roxul Insulation, this all will be underneath the actual house ceiling joists that are the floor to my 1st floor. If people think this isn't a good idea please advise. However this way i see have almost complete decoupling from the main floor. I will still have 8'8 Feet after drywall ceiling is up in the theater room in the basement.

Please give me thoughts, comments or criticism.

Also question about speakers. Would anyone consider putting the back & Mid speakers in the ceiling? Or is this a Big No/No? Most of the threads i've seen people create pillers to hide speakers in. Is this the most suggested way as to keep the wall integrity intact? Thanks
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post #14 of 57 Old 06-15-2014, 11:59 PM
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If you do attach it at the center, make sure to do so with a decoupling clip so you don't get a solid connection, it would destroy a lot of good work.

Myself, I did a lot on searching on the net for and against MLV, and I must say I came up quite short on facts for it, so I've skipped it in my build and went for "OSB" + dual layer drywall with dual layer GreenGlue.

I think ceiling is much too high up for those speakers, so I recommend against it. I'm not doing pillars myself, I don't mind having speakers visible, so I'm just standing them on big angle brackets and decoupling soft feet.

Under construction: the Larch theater
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post #15 of 57 Old 06-16-2014, 04:40 AM
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Thanks for the insight, as this is always being refined. The current ceiling is going to be constructed and attached to the interior walls that have been created and decoupled from the rest of the house & basement. It may have one attachment in the center of the room to the ceiling joists of the constructed house for support in the middle however that should be it.

Please give me thoughts, comments or criticism.
That would be like a condom with just one hole in it.
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post #16 of 57 Old 06-16-2014, 06:12 AM - Thread Starter
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If you do attach it at the center, make sure to do so with a decoupling clip so you don't get a solid connection, it would destroy a lot of good work.

Myself, I did a lot on searching on the net for and against MLV, and I must say I came up quite short on facts for it, so I've skipped it in my build and went for "OSB" + dual layer drywall with dual layer GreenGlue.

I think ceiling is much too high up for those speakers, so I recommend against it. I'm not doing pillars myself, I don't mind having speakers visible, so I'm just standing them on big angle brackets and decoupling soft feet.
Thanks Nightlord.

Next Stupid Question --> What does GOM stand for? (I've kinda determined it's something you all speak about when talking about fabric, but not sure what it is? Thanks

Also what type of bracket/clip do you suggest to Decouple the center of the ceiling with if I have to? Thanks
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post #17 of 57 Old 06-16-2014, 06:15 AM - Thread Starter
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That would be like a condom with just one hole in it.
Big,

You obviously have a lot more experience with this stuff than I do, however you're telling me that one bracket connecting for support in the center is going to do more damage (1 contact point to rest of the house) than Clips/Channel's which will have at minimum 3 contact points with what it's attached to?

Please give a little more insight, however I did enjoy the snark response. Thanks.
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post #18 of 57 Old 06-16-2014, 06:27 AM
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Thanks Nightlord.

Next Stupid Question --> What does GOM stand for? (I've kinda determined it's something you all speak about when talking about fabric, but not sure what it is? Thanks

Also what type of bracket/clip do you suggest to Decouple the center of the ceiling with if I have to? Thanks
Not some fabric existing in my part of the world, so I can't answer that.

I don't recommend it, I recommend that you do without. My room-in-a-room was quite rigid enough without one, so I think you should be able to do without as well. Now, I did end up having to use them as I have an attic hatch messing with the perfect solution, so I ended up with a few of this kind:


But it's definitely an inferior solution compared to doing without. Keep in mind that every piece you put up for walls will stabilize the joists making it more rigid, not less.

Under construction: the Larch theater
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post #19 of 57 Old 06-16-2014, 10:13 AM
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Lets start at the beginning. what size secondary ceiling joists can you fit in the available space? If the ends sit on decoupled walls you are right you can skip clips channel etc. Lets check the span tables and see what is possible before you use a bunch of mid span supports. What will be the final room width after framing the deccoulpled walls. By decoupled wall I mean there are no firm attachment points to the ceiling joists, only a few rubber isolation clips. The framing is one inch short.

Also a construction tip, position the new joists up in the joist space before framing your new walls. Tack them out of the way somehow. Build the walls and then lower the new joists into position.
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GOM is a manufacturer of fabric Guilford of Maine. They use recycled soda bottles. You can order free samples on their website and actually purchase from a large number of vendors. FR701 is a common style used in front of speakers they have several styles suitable for wall treatments.
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If I do an OSB ceiling + GG + 1 layer of drywall, what would then be the best way to mount a projector hush box, without messing up the GG damping?
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If I do an OSB ceiling + GG + 1 layer of drywall, what would then be the best way to mount a projector hush box, without messing up the GG damping?
Drill a hole larger than the screw in just the drywall and just attach to the OSB?

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If I do an OSB ceiling + GG + 1 layer of drywall, what would then be the best way to mount a projector hush box, without messing up the GG damping?
Drill a hole larger than the screw in just the drywall and just attach to the OSB?
Derp. Yep, that would do it. In my mind's eye I was imagining some system of furring channels and clips. Thanks.
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post #24 of 57 Old 06-16-2014, 12:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Lets start at the beginning. what size secondary ceiling joists can you fit in the available space? If the ends sit on decoupled walls you are right you can skip clips channel etc. Lets check the span tables and see what is possible before you use a bunch of mid span supports. What will be the final room width after framing the deccoulpled walls. By decoupled wall I mean there are no firm attachment points to the ceiling joists, only a few rubber isolation clips. The framing is one inch short.

Also a construction tip, position the new joists up in the joist space before framing your new walls. Tack them out of the way somehow. Build the walls and then lower the new joists into position.
the New ceiling joists will all be 12 foot 2x4's, There will be apx 17 joists in the ceiling for strength to hold the drywall/MLV combo. There will not be any attachment to the rest of the house. As I mentioned if anything a few clips as Nightlord advised, but I am trying to avoid that. Thanks for the help. Please let me know if I did not answer everything and your thoughts. THanks
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post #25 of 57 Old 06-16-2014, 01:19 PM
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2x4s are really tiny for ceiling joists, now what can you really fit? I am assuming you plan for them to sit between existing joists, nested up in the joist space. Not hanging totally below the existing joists.
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post #26 of 57 Old 06-16-2014, 05:39 PM - Thread Starter
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2x4s are really tiny for ceiling joists, now what can you really fit? I am assuming you plan for them to sit between existing joists, nested up in the joist space. Not hanging totally below the existing joists.
I apologize, They are 2x4's that are 12 foot long. Again it's not holding up anything but the drywall and MLV. It's a completely indepedantly supported structure. The Joists to my House are 2x8 or 10 I believe. They are above.
We are double studding every four on the new ceiling to support weight. It will be completely under the joists of the actual house. At this point we have half the ceiling up, and it doesn't look like we will need support from the original joists so we should be able to stay completely decoupled. Electric is going into the ceiling tomorrow and I should hopefully have framing done tomorrow.

As for lighting The room will have 4 sconce's on the two side walls. This will allow us to avoid anything in the ceiling as far as hole's for sound to escape. I will plan on putting a piece of OSB at the area the Projector will hang as well.

There will be 2 power outlet's (1 at the back of the room for the chairs, 1 in the wall behind the stage or if Possible in the stage. (The stage will be housing my center channel and Subwoofer.

Still working on doors.

Last edited by badger985; 06-16-2014 at 06:37 PM. Reason: Made a mistake on the wood It's actually 2x4 that are 12 foot long as I mentioned originally.
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post #27 of 57 Old 06-17-2014, 04:01 AM
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I have a dedicated outbuilding for my theater, room-in-room, double entry doors, and I get 90db (or more) of soundproofing above 200hz.
It can be THX Reference Level inside, and nobody outside would even know.

Only the odd loud rumble of bass gets through.

Which is as good as you can expect from a wood structure that isn't in an 15ft underground cement bunker on springs.

The outside wall is dual 3/4 OSB on 2x4 with R30.
Then a 1" air gap.

The inside wall is 2x4 with Roxul and vb, and then on that, a heavy gauge hat channel, then soundboard, and then dual 5/8 fire rated DW with GG.

Both doors are exterior weather proof metal doors, although I don't think they are solid core.



It is not uncommon for rooms such as this to actually be at negative db's above 200hz when no significant external noise is present.
(It's below the noisefloor of my CM-140 SPL meter, which maxes out at ~28db.)


Some people find soundproofed rooms peaceful; other people find the lack of sound highly disturbing.

If you put foam earplugs in your ears and hold your breathe in my room you can hear your own heartbeat and lung sounds through the conduction of the foam plugs; and any tinnitus you may have.
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Last edited by BassThatHz; 06-17-2014 at 04:22 AM.
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post #28 of 57 Old 06-17-2014, 08:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Next Stupid Question.

Why do people put Insulation/ or Sand in the riser that the seating area is on? especially if the riser isnt attached to the wall?
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post #29 of 57 Old 06-17-2014, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badger985 View Post
Next Stupid Question.

Why do people put Insulation/ or Sand in the riser that the seating area is on? especially if the riser isnt attached to the wall?
Sand would be for the stage, not the seating riser.

If there's insulation and openings, you have a bass trap.

Under construction: the Larch theater
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post #30 of 57 Old 06-18-2014, 08:46 AM
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BassthatHZ,
Yea! First poster that has mentioned Sound Board! Bonus points.
I have built music rooms in $10 Mill. + houses, where sound had to be absorbed, period.
It has been many years granted, technology has changed and new innovations in sound proofing have developed.
I am not currently active in building, so I can only share my older technology experiences.
We started with offset stud wall construction, room within a room style. The interior wall studs did not touch the exterior wall studs (nor the top/bottom plates), interior wall studs were centered in the gap of the exterior wall studs. On the interior wall we screwed 5/8" soundboard on the walls and ceiling, then had a company come in and blow fire retardant cellulose between the offset wall / ceiling spaces. Hole saw plugs were glued back in place. 5/8" sheetrock was then installed over the Sound Board. Wiring was completed and the 2 1/2" solid Mahogany door was hung. Similar to your design lighting was provided by torchieres and desk lamps.
That room was ~ 16'x30', I don't remember the dimensions exactly, but it was QUIET, inside and out.
I think it is easy to become overly focused on technology and the "latest and greatest" whatever the subject, and loose sight of why it works. Dead air space with sound absorption materials, the more the better. Decoupled from exterior structural members. KISS.

First off, MDF is NOT Multiple Density Fiberboard. It's Medium Density Fiberboard. There is also HDF, which is ungodly heavy and hernia inducing stuff.
Perhaps the poster was thinking of OSB? Oriented Strand Board.

Secondly, Don't all condoms come with a hole in one end? Otherwise it's a sealed tube. JK. Just pointing it out.

You had ceiling height to spare, should have gone with 2x6 instead of 2x4s. 2x4 just barely meet the load/span calculation tables for a 16" O/C 5lbs dead load with a deflection of //240. That said, 2x4s will work, don't forget to block them.

If you cut holes in the ceiling for speakers you will mitigate the sound proofing the ceiling affords, speakers send sound in both directions. Also the dispersant patterns of most in ceiling speakers will be "sweet spot" truncated.

Cinder block walls must be treated (I'm sure you know this) for sound reflections. Their mass is outstanding for sound deadening from the outside. If any portions of this room are below grade, you may have issues later with moisture penetration through the block wall, between the block and the false wall. Keep this in mind as you build.
Think about exterior drainage solutions away from the building.
Provide plenty of air circulation, especially air exchange. A sealed room will become stale, hot and humid without fresh air circulation.

Please post pictures.
Ron
General Contractor 35+ years
Mold Remediation Certified

"New Member" since 2007....
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