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post #31 of 111 Old 06-17-2014, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregon Chris View Post
If I do go with the 20' container (I am waiting to hear back from the permit office), I would appreciate suggestions on two issues.

1) Air exchange. My current thinking is to put a low flow, always on, quiet blower under the riser. Pull air in from the side of the container and push it out through a register on the front step of the riser. Then put a 2nd twin blower on the other side of the riser, pulling air from the other side front step, and exhausting it out to the other side of the container. "Blower" might be too generous. I'm thinking more of PC fans. I just want enough air exchange to keep people from running out of oxygen, and not waste conditioned air. A couple small air filters screens behind the registers to keep dust out would make sense.

2) Side surrounds. I imagine I will be in there alone 75% of the time. I want to optimize the sound stage for the front center seat because I'm a selfish that way. Would a dipole speaker pictured where I have it in the original post just kill it for the people in the side seats? The same question applies for the rear speakers. Would having them positioned on a wall 1ft behind behind the rear seats ruin it for people in the back row? My "solution" for both sides and rears is to mount them higher than normal so they aren't right in someones ear hole.
You don't need much air exchange. A simple silent PC fan for $5 that is 120mm sized would circulate enough air from an oxygen requirement standpoint. You don't suffocate.

A proper HVAC solution would have return ducts and circulate air- if you just open a hole and suck air out and blow it in then you will be exchanging either hot or cool air, which makes your heating and cooling work harder to keep up. That's not a good solution IMO. You would be better off consulting an HVAC professional to design a system that can both cool, heat, and exchange air properly.

Keeping from suffocating is pretty easy, but you ideally want to employ a proper heating and cooling and comfort solution- which naturally would include some type of plan to keep you from suffocating.

As far as side speakers,

I don't like dipole speakers. They were an invention and excuse for people to get ambient surround in a poor listening environment and poor set up. Modern sound tracks are not mixed for such a thing, they are mixed for sound localization. The mixing theaters don't use dipoles when mixing.

There is two schools of thought on the subject. The first and original that supported dipoles was that surround shouldn't be localized too much, and it's more an ambient effect. Such as hearing rain falling, or hearing crickets in a horror movie scene before the slashing. You want to be surrounded by that, but not necessarily focus on where it's coming from.

The more modern application of surround in 5.1/6.1/7.1 and HD audio is more localized. You can hear certain things from the back, the side, and the point is you should. It's mixed in a way where you should localize and realize where the sound is coming from.

Dipoles can work well in a properly damped and treated room because the room has accommodations for spitting the sound all over the place. But dipoles in a bad room sound terrible to me, they throw sound everywhere and with refections it always sounds bad to me. Dipoles with wide dispersion should never be used in a room with untreated ceilings and hard wood floors- they are absolutely terrible. Some of the worse sounding systems I have heard had this in common.

You can use an ordinary speaker with a controlled directivity pattern if you place the speaker properly and set up the room properly, which will get you great sound but also increase localization and minimize negative room interactions and reflections. Are you going to heavily damp the inside of the shipping crate? Dipoles work better in heavily damped rooms with low RTC. If the sound is too echo like it sounds bad IMO.

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post #32 of 111 Old 06-17-2014, 10:53 AM
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If you are just looking for something simple and small, you can get a steel building pretty cheap. This one from Lowes is a single car structure for about $2k. Pop that up on a concrete slab, and then finish the interior as you would otherwise. You'll get a lot more functional and enjoyable space.

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post #33 of 111 Old 06-17-2014, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
You can use an ordinary speaker with a controlled directivity pattern if you place the speaker properly and set up the room properly, which will get you great sound but also increase localization and minimize negative room interactions and reflections. Are you going to heavily damp the inside of the shipping crate? Dipoles work better in heavily damped rooms with low RTC. If the sound is too echo like it sounds bad IMO.
I'm completely open on suggestions for speakers. With the constraints of this build, I have no idea what would work best. I had read somewhere that if you have a wide enough room with plenty of space along the aisles then conventional or waveguide speakers were best, but for narrow rooms where seating is up close, the dipoles would be better for side surrounds, with respects to giving everyone in the room a decent experience. If there was only 1 chair in the room, it would be easy. But I'm really talking out my ass, as I have no practical experience and need advice.


As for damping, I was planning on doing DIY square frames I saw on someone else's build. I don't have the link handy, but it involved building simple picture frames, stretching and stapling fabric over them, filling the interior with baffle, and then mounting them to the wall. I thought the finished look was incredible. The problem is I don't have much width to spare, so plan to put them in sort of a stair step along the walls and back of the room everywhere the seating doesn't touch. Even on the door interiors.

Last edited by Oregon Chris; 06-17-2014 at 11:09 AM.
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post #34 of 111 Old 06-17-2014, 12:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BllDo View Post
If you are just looking for something simple and small, you can get a steel building pretty cheap. This one from Lowes is a single car structure for about $2k. Pop that up on a concrete slab, and then finish the interior as you would otherwise. You'll get a lot more functional and enjoyable space.
Maybe. Benefit of container for me is no slab, and not having to lay down gravel 75ft to get a cement truck to the back of my property.
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post #35 of 111 Old 06-17-2014, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregon Chris View Post
Maybe. Benefit of container for me is no slab, and not having to lay down gravel 75ft to get a cement truck to the back of my property.
How would a tractor-trailer fare any better? If you are just looking for the cachet of having a container, you should at least be honest about that. Because really, I don't know what you think you will be getting otherwise. This might be one of the most impractical ideas I have ever read.

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post #36 of 111 Old 06-17-2014, 01:22 PM
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Your title 20' shipping crate caught my eye as having been in the logistics biz a 20' crate (wood) is unusual. While I've been involved in the shipments of thousands of containers it would never occur to me to want to spend much time in one, maybe use as a storage container at best. They do have sexy doors (not). I can't imagine wanting to be in a theater that narrow but I suppose you might tame the sweatbox thing with sufficient ventilation/heating/airconditioning....doubt you'd want to be in one long without any of those most of the year. How would you keep it up off the ground without a slab? The doors don't work so well settled into the ground. It'd be nice if they came in other than 8' width/height (7'8" and 7'9" common inside width/height), but they don't. Gutting walls on a pair and joining them might interesting but not really. IMHO.
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post #37 of 111 Old 06-17-2014, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by donaldk View Post
When I read 'add-on property', I thought get an actual add-on, one of those current day alternatives to the Romney shed/barn, aka one of those American style steel garages. Spray the inside with cellulose, or pad with some mineralwool to minimize the reflections and echo's.

They come in all sizes and levels of fanciness; http://www.curvcosteelbuildings.com/...stimonials.php is one of the first google spits out.

Or get a doublewide trailer, mobile, perhaps even code excempt?

Steel containers are interesting if you want to go underground.

Now if you can get those haulingcosts down, someway, 2K is top dollar for a used container, so most must be in the hauling.

Overhere in Europe I would look into used tempory buildings, i.e. containers made out of plywood with or pure trespasheeting.

An example, http://www.marktplaats.nl/a/zakelijk...aat-2-750.html

A tad small, but good condition, therefor not cheap.

But they also sell an 6x 6, that's meters so 20x20 feet: http://www.marktplaats.nl/a/zakelijk...-tuinders.html.

there must be some companies out there that cater to the temporary office buildings, schools, and so on that sell of used inventory.
The company I work for used to do that. We sold that division of our business off a few years ago to Pac-Van. http://www.pacvan.com
These guys are in Indianapolis IN so I know that probably doesn't help you much but I thought maybe you could check it out for some ideas?
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post #38 of 111 Old 06-17-2014, 04:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Cool Cachet of using a container

Quote:
Originally Posted by BllDo View Post
How would a tractor-trailer fare any better? If you are just looking for the cachet of having a container, you should at least be honest about that. Because really, I don't know what you think you will be getting otherwise. This might be one of the most impractical ideas I have ever read.
I have space for the container adjacent to the house, with access from the driveway. The location that is available for a larger structure is near the back of the property. The rest of my two acres is covered in various fruit and nut trees and a 120 bush blueberry orchard - none of which we want to pull.

It isn't the cachet of using a container, hehe.

It's my 4th or 5th choice. (#1 is a 24x32 concrete wall using ICFs and concrete roof building FYI) I'm just working up a design to see if it can be done. Plus the challenge. Its a, "Anyone can build a kick ass PC for $3,000. But can you build one to run Skyrim for $500?" sort of thing. I work in semiconductor development. Trying to build transistors with a gate 3 atomic layers thick. Trying to do other things with novel materials that I can't discuss publicly. Its the challenge of solving these fundamental problems that keeps me invested in the job beyond the day to day grind. I'm lucky I get to work somewhere where I get to push the envelope in such a CAN IT BE DONE? way.

I think that is why this 20ft container challenge is compelling, to me anyway.
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post #39 of 111 Old 06-17-2014, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
Your title 20' shipping crate caught my eye as having been in the logistics biz a 20' crate (wood) is unusual. While I've been involved in the shipments of thousands of containers it would never occur to me to want to spend much time in one, maybe use as a storage container at best. They do have sexy doors (not). I can't imagine wanting to be in a theater that narrow but I suppose you might tame the sweatbox thing with sufficient ventilation/heating/airconditioning....doubt you'd want to be in one long without any of those most of the year. How would you keep it up off the ground without a slab? The doors don't work so well settled into the ground. It'd be nice if they came in other than 8' width/height (7'8" and 7'9" common inside width/height), but they don't. Gutting walls on a pair and joining them might interesting but not really. IMHO.
The 20ft High Cube is 9'6" tall (8'10" internal height) I would pour 4 small 1' x 1' pads for the corners to rest on. I would seal the rear door and cut and install two human doors. Neighbor is a welder. Haven't asked him yet, but I'm pretty sure it would be trivial for him to do the door.

Last edited by Oregon Chris; 06-17-2014 at 04:22 PM.
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post #40 of 111 Old 06-17-2014, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregon Chris View Post
The 20ft High Cube is 9'6" tall (8'10" internal height) I would pour 4 small 1' x 1' pads for the corners to rest on. I would seal the rear door and cut and install two human doors. Neighbor is a welder. Haven't asked him yet, but I'm pretty sure it would be trivial for him to do the door.
You have an unstoppable vision it seems! How about external aesthetics....you have to look at it out a window? How about levels of sound emanating from this as far as the house goes?

Sorry my chart didn't include a 20' hicube...just grabbed one without looking....had already erased all such bookmarks/files since I retired .

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post #41 of 111 Old 06-17-2014, 05:14 PM
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I'd buy a cutting torch and welder and stick two side by side and combine them to be double wide if you are 100% commited. No sense in being scared.
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post #42 of 111 Old 06-17-2014, 05:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
You have an unstoppable vision it seems! How about external aesthetics....you have to look at it out a window? How about levels of sound emanating from this as far as the house goes?

Sorry my chart didn't include a 20' hicube...just grabbed one without looking....had already erased all such bookmarks/files since I retired .

Side of the house beside the garage, so no window, but I could easily Tyvek and sidewall it in the future if my wife grew sick of seeing it. Plan on OSB + GG + 5/8 DW on 5 sides to handle much of the high frequency sound. Considering expense of Serenity mat for the floor.
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post #43 of 111 Old 06-17-2014, 06:00 PM - Thread Starter
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I'd buy a cutting torch and welder and stick two side by side and combine them to be double wide if you are 100% commited. No sense in being scared.
Considered that. Not sure about how to span that 16ft width to hang double drywall in ceiling. Would lose a lot of height with a ceiling joist. I figured 2x4 in the 8ft width would be adequate but might need 2 by 8 to span 16ft. Was looking at three 8 x 40s but figured I would need steel I beams to span that without losing too much height.

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post #44 of 111 Old 06-17-2014, 07:27 PM
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You can screw into steel with the right screws and by drilling small pilot holes. It's stronger than any wood or drywall screw if you do it right. Put up some furing strips or something, or you could even probably do some decoupling if you wanted.

The problem I keep seeing is ideally you'd want to rip the side off, raise the roof ... The crate just isn't the right choice.

Pour a slab and build on that. That's my final answer.
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post #45 of 111 Old 06-17-2014, 07:31 PM
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I would buy an angle grinder and have a wielder with portable rig come in
and do the wielding.

Six piers. Offset the containers, wood stud walls. Baffle wall with DIY XD screen and manual
side masking panels. In wall surrounds up high and angled to fire out and over seating.
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post #46 of 111 Old 06-17-2014, 10:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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I would buy an angle grinder and have a wielder with portable rig come in
and do the wielding.

Six piers. Offset the containers, wood stud walls. Baffle wall with DIY XD screen and manual
side masking panels. In wall surrounds up high and angled to fire out and over seating.

Interesting vision. I wouldn't have thought of that. What would your reason be for offsetting them and not doing the same thing with them aligned? Would seem to be simpler to do the pillars if they are aligned.

Edit: Just read your PM so understand now what you were going with re: structural integrity in that design.

Last edited by Oregon Chris; 06-17-2014 at 11:46 PM. Reason: typos
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post #47 of 111 Old 06-17-2014, 10:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Still looking for feedback on the side surround and rear speaker question.

Just go with me here. If the single 20' HC container was the concept that was locked in, even if were a really stupid choice you disagreed with, please give your input on what would the optimal design be for placement and selection of speakers. Specifically, side surround and rear speaker type and placement.

To summarize from previous posts, I had imagined a layout like this:

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With speakers:
LCR - 3 DIY Fusion 8 MTM or maybe the 3 of the Cinema 1s

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2 DIY Fusion 6 rear: $300

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2 Dipole Side Surrounds: ???

2 DIY Martycubes: $750

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I had thought about placing the side and rear speakers higher than head position to keep them out of someone's ear hole.
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post #48 of 111 Old 06-18-2014, 03:50 AM
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Once again, I would shrink the space and change the proportions. I would also re-allocate some money.

Seating on the back wall, in the back 2 corners is wasted money. The audio is going to outright suck in those
two seats so to me, they represent money best spent elsewhere.

I would be thinking stereo DIY Fusion 8 MTM, plus a dipole sub firing to the sides. Simple flat black spray finish.
I would use a multichannel avr. Two seats so they aren't on the walls. Seymour XD screen, with vertical masking
panels for scope images. I would treat for first reflection points, for the side walls and the ceiling.

Why stereo? With a close to 7' wide room your center channel is going to dead center at 3.5'. Now that is exactly
quarter the wavelength of 80 Hz wave (14' long) so with quarter wave cancelation, an 80 Hz crossover point won't
be a good start for a seamless sat/sub crossover. Put a stage there and you're going to be close vertically too. So
I'd recommend a receiver offers some alternativecrossover points that work with the speakers, if going multichannel.
I also find having a surround channel jump out of the mix spoils multichannel magic for me.

A 45x80" screen is so 2003.... Brings me back to my first projector, a Plus Piano HE-3200 with 848x600 resolution.
Really nice picture at 45x80", for dvds. 1:1 pixel mapping. So your existing pj should REALLY be up to the task for that
screen size. An XD AT screen and sliding upper and lower masking panels would maximise what you could pull off up
screen-wise.

I would continue the "cheap but good theme" with speaker grill fabric walls. Total black cave. And stuff some seats with
a WOW factor in there. A three or four zone Lutron Grafic Eye lighting controller for some lighting WOW factor and zone
front and seating.A couple of conduits hidden in the soffit, for cabling runs and wiring for an infrared repeater system.

I expect two exits might be required, so I'd add a window in the entry area. MA Slim5 av rack or a used computer rack
built in.

I'd be looking to maximise the interior width in the theater section, so I have to wonder if strapping plus some low
expansion spray foam would work for the side walls.

It might be cool (or be overwhelming) to do some LED stripe lighting with fabric panels in a narrow room, and plant on
that lighting on the fourth zone of the Lutron.
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post #49 of 111 Old 06-18-2014, 06:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Amazing response. Thanks.
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post #50 of 111 Old 06-18-2014, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregon Chris View Post
Still looking for feedback on the side surround and rear speaker question.

Just go with me here. If the single 20' HC container was the concept that was locked in, even if were a really stupid choice you disagreed with, please give your input on what would the optimal design be for placement and selection of speakers. Specifically, side surround and rear speaker type and placement.

To summarize from previous posts, I had imagined a layout like this:

Attachment 123666 Attachment 123674

With speakers:
LCR - 3 DIY Fusion 8 MTM or maybe the 3 of the Cinema 1s

Attachment 123714 Attachment 123722

2 DIY Fusion 6 rear: $300

Attachment 123730

2 Dipole Side Surrounds: ???

2 DIY Martycubes: $750

Attachment 123746

I had thought about placing the side and rear speakers higher than head position to keep them out of someone's ear hole.
I like the speakers from a value perspective. Low price, great performance. The output is stupid on those fusion 8s and you get the MTM benefits which should help in your space. High efficiency, good dynamics and controlled directivity. Nice. You are placing behind AT screen?

2 martycubes with UXl18 would seriously threaten the structural integrity of that steel if you can keep it sealed tight. That's a scary proposition. 17hz @ 120db is no small thing.
A $5000 MFG made sub would struggle to keep up (probably wouldn't). Not much to hate on that either. Carry on.

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post #51 of 111 Old 06-18-2014, 09:46 AM
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I'd still recommend the two container route. If you were thinking three container dollars, then why not
two smaller containers and the services of a wielder? You could put a steel beam in, to brace the cut open
side sides and hide that beam via a fifth soffit.

I'd start it off with a smaller screen like a 54x96" but plan and allow for, a larger scope screen down the
road. The front speakers wouldn't move, they'd be planted outside the screen, and with a larger screen, the
speakers would end up all behind the screen. Then a 4K projector upgrade makes sense where on a 45x80"
woven AT screen, it does not. You would still want your eyes to be 11' off the screen, so you don't see the
weave.
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post #52 of 111 Old 06-18-2014, 10:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Tedd,

I've been mulling over your response for a few hours from early this morning. It makes a lot of sense but is kind of a buzz kill. Reality is harsh that way sometimes. (Just to be clear, I appreciate you not sugar coating that my plan acoustically stunk. That advise is what I'm here for.)

The two container system does make more sense, but please bear with me just a little bit longer to help lock down the single 20 footer concept.

My issue is that I have a family of 5. If I can't get 5 seats in there somehow then it isn't worth doing. I also would like to find a way to get at least 5.1 for surround effects, even if a 2.1 system might make more sense.

Do you think I could make it work by shifting things slightly to keep a row of 3 in front, but just two seats in back, with the rear seats having 2 feet of clearance from the back wall, and placing the two surround speakers in the rear corners, toed in towards the center?

The AT screen with upper/lower masking is definitely what I was going for. In my original Sketchup, I had placed racks in that area above and below the screen. My thought was to have hinged frames with black speaker fabric over them so that I could access equipment there as needed, but still use an IR remote to activate them. This would eliminate the need for a separate AV cabinet. Is the weave from newer 4k AT screen material visible @ 8ft when video is being displayed on it? I wasn't aware that was an issue.

Those hinged doors over that cabinet area, and frames for the walls would be built similar to the old GPowers build from 2004 that I thought was brilliant, but using speaker fabric:

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The closed cell spray foam that I was looking at is designed for 1" coating. (Because the walls are corrugated, the spray foam would work better then fiberglass batting due corrugations leaving air pockets that would be susceptible to condensation.) I was thinking about using narrower metal tracks instead of 2x4s to save space. But I am concerned about mounting ceiling OSB and drywall to them. 2x4s over the 8ft span at 16" spacing would seem better for that aspect.

You mentioned a dipole side firing sub. What would the benefit of that be as opposed to the two ported Martycubes I had envisioned? I've Googled, but not found much regarding the advantages of that setup.

Thanks again,
-Chris

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post #53 of 111 Old 06-18-2014, 11:04 AM
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No way is a sane person going to run 120 db in a small volume, for very long anyways....

You will try it, and you might be making some drywalls repairs. I'd suggest Durabond 90
for your first mud coat and double drywall/GG.

The second Martycube will be overkill but with a small volume a second sub works to help
ensure smoother bass. Two subs are also a potential location solver.

I would plant the surrounds in the soffits ( for the single container). Post 38 perhaps?
Framing starts soon and I'm not ready!

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post #54 of 111 Old 06-18-2014, 11:36 AM
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I guess the fast buzz kill puts you at a much faster reality check, then me.

Mission accomplished!


I find it a very common theme with small spaces to attempt to shoehorn stuff in. Less can be more.

So now we have five seats as a defined requirement.

I like five seats in a King Queen / three seat riser a lot more. The primary row would be
the King and Queen seats, up front. I would sooner have the av rack cantilever out the
back side wall, then cram up the front of the room.

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post #55 of 111 Old 06-18-2014, 11:40 AM
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Yeah two subs makes sense if you can located them in different places, best option would be one in the back or sides and one behind the screen. That will get you more even response. You won't crank them to use the extra boost the second sub gets you but you clearly will appreciate that sub in a different location and how it smooths things out and makes it sound better. It's easier to tune and EQ too with multiple subs.

Having headroom is a good thing with subwoofers IMO.

You could even convert over to a simple sealed box if you are not chasing SPL. In a single sealed shipping container they would be plenty, especially something like a UXL18. Even a cheaper SI18 would sound great. You would give up a lot of SPL but gain some extra extension on the bottom (8hz-16hz) but around the tune (usually 17hz) the sealed would be disadvantaged greatly in output. If you don't need the output, sealed is a good option too. The boxes are smaller and take less space, which means you locate them easier. Having built multiple big ported subs and also sealed subs before I can tell you for sure a simple sealed box is also much easier and cheaper to construct too.

But I don't want to talk you out of the awesomeness that is martycube

I would expect the room gain from a room the size of a shipping crate and sealed rather well with double DW on the inside to give a considerable boost in the lower bass regions so you have a powerhouse in the workings potentially. It might mean crazy loud bass, but it could also mean trouble tuning it smooth.

The bigger enclosures and rooms moves the gain down lower in frequency which is easier to tune out and get a smoother response. That's a bonus for the two container approach with two sub approach over the single sub and single container.

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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Can I ask some questions:

What exactly do you get with the shipping crate that you can't get with a wooden construction?

Since it's unlikely the shipping crate will ever be up to building code, does it matter is your alternative to a shipping crate is up to code too ? That could potentially open the door for a lot better options without needing to raise the cost so significantly with a full concrete foundation dig and pour.

If you go through the trouble to start cutting off the sides of shipping crates, welding them together, raising roofs, cutting holes.. would it just be easier to build the same structure from wood? It's going to be cheaper. I could build a wood framed shipping crate structure the size of two shipping crates - using pressure treated wood for the same cost. Probably in under a week with only the help from a friend.

I hate to talk you out of it because the idea is so cool. I actually want you to do it, it seems like a unique and interesting way to go about it. But in my head the adventurist in me keeps thinking of cutting off the roof, extending it up a few feet more... putting it back on. Cutting off the side... extending it out with wood structure. Or using two crates combines to be twice the volume.... After all this things happen you might as well just go another route IMO because the trouble to cut a shipping crate or extend a dimension of a steel structure is no simple task. It seems harder than using wood.

If you remove the wall of the crate and the top and you extend out with wood framing and extend up ? You could use the removed side and top on the outside to make it look like a bigger crate. Use the top to extend to meet where the side is- and then just do some simple metal roofing plan on it to keep it looking like a steel crate if that is the goal.

Personally I'd want to make it look like it belongs with siding, roofing... and all that. But that seems against what you seem to want. How come ?

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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The closed cell foam is a vapor barrier at 1.5" deep.


I call this "the war of inches", when planting stuff in a smaller space.


(Anyone else having issues with the editor? It's driving me crazy...)


Is the newer 4K stuff available as fabric only? It's has less gain but hey, it's a 45x80" screen,
so you might be onto something there. I just don't want my KQ seats at the midpoint of the
container. I'd be thinking stadium style theater seats to get a tight footprint of seating and try to
keep it all off the walls (and out of the corners).
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When I see pictures like this, I have to wonder if a single 20' container with both side walls cut out
(and reused) would work and is up to the task structurally. Wield 12' steel beams to the deck, and bolt
deeper wood beams where the riser area is.
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post #59 of 111 Old 06-18-2014, 01:55 PM
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and it appears an angle grinder is up to the task of cutting walls out.....
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post #60 of 111 Old 06-18-2014, 02:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedd View Post
The primary row would be the King and Queen seats, up front. I would sooner have the av rack cantilever out the back side wall, then cram up the front of the room.
Do you by chance have a link handy to a build thread showing that? I think I get what you are going for, but haven't seen an example.

Last edited by Oregon Chris; 06-18-2014 at 03:00 PM.
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