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post #61 of 111 Old 06-18-2014, 02:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah two subs makes sense if you can located them in different places, best option would be one in the back or sides and one behind the screen. That will get you more even response. You won't crank them to use the extra boost the second sub gets you but you clearly will appreciate that sub in a different location and how it smooths things out and makes it sound better. It's easier to tune and EQ too with multiple subs.
If you refer back to that rough sketchup, I only see two viable spots for the subs. Under the AT screen, or in the back row, upper corners. I've never seen subs mounted up in the upper back corners in a build before. Wonder how that would sound?


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You could even convert over to a simple sealed box if you are not chasing SPL. In a single sealed shipping container they would be plenty, especially something like a UXL18. Even a cheaper SI18 would sound great. You would give up a lot of SPL but gain some extra extension on the bottom (8hz-16hz) but around the tune (usually 17hz) the sealed would be disadvantaged greatly in output.
I'm not chasing SPL, so much as chasing single digit bass frequencies in an effortless way. Or at least to the low teens. Its the thing I don't have now that I have heard and desire. I have a couple Buttkickers and it just isn't the same.
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post #62 of 111 Old 06-18-2014, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Can I ask some questions:

What exactly do you get with the shipping crate that you can't get with a wooden construction?
Cost and lack of confidence to tackle major construction DIY. Saves at least $15k by not having to do a real foundation, a real roof, gravel a road out, and trench facilities 100ft. Having never done construction, I admit to being a little intimidated to DIY load bearing walls correctly. Framing out the interior of a 20' crate, routing electric and buying a drywall lift to install drywall seems like a reasonable way to DIY and learn how to do these things myself without screwing up a permanent structure if I screw things up.

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Can I ask some questions:
If you go through the trouble to start cutting off the sides of shipping crates, welding them together, raising roofs, cutting holes.. would it just be easier to build the same structure from wood? It's going to be cheaper.
Yes. I think so. That's why it only makes sense if I can do it without all that cutting and welding and adding supports - aside from cutting a human door.

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Personally I'd want to make it look like it belongs with siding, roofing... and all that. But that seems against what you seem to want. How come ?

I care about what's going on inside far more than how it looks externally. Wife might have a different opinion though. But that's something that can be easily addressed down the road with Tyvek and siding. Not sure about the roof though. I don't know if how much weight the top side rails will support. Of course, with 2x4 bracing internally, it should be fine. Come to think of it, it would just be 12 sheets of plywood and framing 2x4s to roof and give it a couple feet of overhang on each side. So not much weight spread out that way, along with sheet metal.

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post #63 of 111 Old 06-18-2014, 02:40 PM - Thread Starter
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The closed cell foam is a vapor barrier at 1.5" deep.

Is the newer 4K stuff available as fabric only? It's has less gain but hey, it's a 45x80" screen,
so you might be onto something there. I just don't want my KQ seats at the midpoint of the
container.
I was reading the Falcon Screen thread which mentioned the weave wasn't visible @ 9ft.

The official Falcon Screens acoustically transparent screen thread
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post #64 of 111 Old 06-18-2014, 03:22 PM
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I can only comment on the ac side but I've worked out of a 20' convex box a few times. During the summer on san Diego mostly. Ours the doors are folded open and a wooden end is built with a normal door and a ac unit. We don't get insulation and are directly exposed to Sun. But a normal window ac unit has kept it cool enough to be comfortable. It'll get it down to 70 or so.

All I'm saying is the heating and cooling aspect shouldnt be to hard. A simple ac unit and heater should be plenty...especially if you adds some insulation and even more so if you make a cover for the box

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post #65 of 111 Old 06-18-2014, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
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All I'm saying is the heating and cooling aspect shouldnt be to hard. A simple ac unit and heater should be plenty...especially if you adds some insulation and even more so if you make a cover for the box
I was looking at this unit:
LG heat pump.jpg


http://www.amazon.com/LG-LA180HSV2-D...plit+heat+pump

for about $1,800. 18,000 BTU would normally be overkill for 140 sq ft, but with all the electronics I'd rather err on the overkill side.

EDIT: Oops, I linked to an AC unit only. re-link to the heat pump this time. Similar unit from Mitsubishi was recommended by a friend but is a few hundred more.

That would go along with closed cell spray foam, 1 layer of OSB, and 1 layer drywall on walls and ceiling.
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post #66 of 111 Old 06-18-2014, 04:00 PM
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If you refer back to that rough sketchup, I only see two viable spots for the subs. Under the AT screen, or in the back row, upper corners. I've never seen subs mounted up in the upper back corners in a build before. Wonder how that would sound?
It would sound awesome. That is how it would sound.

Theoretically if you wanted good bass you would have 4 subs, two on the front wall and two on the back wall- with two on the floor and two on the ceiling.

The next best thing would be one on the front and one in the back, with one on the floor and one on the ceiling.

Don't fear putting a sub up in the room, it's a good thing.

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post #67 of 111 Old 06-18-2014, 04:02 PM
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I'm not chasing SPL, so much as chasing single digit bass frequencies in an effortless way. Or at least to the low teens. Its the thing I don't have now that I have heard and desire. I have a couple Buttkickers and it just isn't the same.
Then you want to go sealed, or lower the tune of the martycube by lengthening the port. Or just design your own box like a marty cube but tuned to 13hz instead of 17hz. Sealed is the easiest IMO if you don't care how loud it goes. Ported will reward the extra effort with increase power handling and SPL at port tune.

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post #68 of 111 Old 06-18-2014, 04:06 PM
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So the idea is you can just place the metal container on the ground and go without any foundation for it ?

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post #69 of 111 Old 06-18-2014, 04:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Then you want to go sealed, or lower the tune of the martycube by lengthening the port. Or just design your own box like a marty cube but tuned to 13hz instead of 17hz. Sealed is the easiest IMO if you don't care how loud it goes. Ported will reward the extra effort with increase power handling and SPL at port tune.
Something I need to play around with. If I recall, the ported, lower tuned boxes require substantially much more volume.

I had once imagined a 40ft container instead of a 20', but with 10ft of it just reserved for an 8x18" infinite baffle wall. That still might work...

Crap, now I'm considering a of a 5.8 system with 8 FI Audio IB318s. Wait, wait. Let's stay on target.
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post #70 of 111 Old 06-18-2014, 04:18 PM - Thread Starter
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So the idea is you can just place the metal container on the ground and go without any foundation for it ?
Blocks / pillars poured into the ground. Trivial to make. Delivery is from a tilt truck. The port sales manager said the driver could easily set it on four 1x1 blocks as long as he could back straight up to it without needing a crane or forklift.


tilt truck.jpg pillar.jpg pillar 2.jpg
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post #71 of 111 Old 06-18-2014, 05:00 PM
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Blocks / pillars poured into the ground. Trivial to make. Delivery is from a tilt truck. The port sales manager said the driver could easily set it on four 1x1 blocks as long as he could back straight up to it without needing a crane or forklift.
lol. that's a lot of work.

If you are going to go through that trouble you might as well pour a lolly column you can then just put pressure treated lumber across.

You are planing to do this:




????


Why can't you just start building with pressure treated lumber on top of the same style cement pillars ? Skip the shipping crate all together.

I hate to keep trying to talk you out of doing the shipping crate because I want to see the results and it's a cool idea. But I think there might be alternatives for you that work better.

If your worry is structural integrity there is plenty of sites online or youtube videos that show you how to properly frame a wall or run ceiling or floor joists. This is simple stuff that low paid uneducated constructions workers do daily. Some of the dumbest kids I went to high school with frame houses for a living. Anyone can learn how.

I guess if you really wanted to go overkill to be sure you could extend that lolly column pillar (the metal pole) from inside the ground and inside the concrete footing you pour all the way up to the ceiling height and hide the pole in the wall (after you fill with cement). Then run engineered lumber (way overkill) across them for the span. That would hold a roof up.. lol

I've seen entire house held up with stuff like that. It's simple stuff unless you live in quicksand.

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post #72 of 111 Old 06-18-2014, 07:17 PM
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No images of a cantilevered av rack. I was thinking a 21" wide opening like a narrow door and to use longer
riser joists to extend the floor outside, past the container. Then wood frame for a 20x20" MA Slim5 av rack
and give it a contrasting material as a weather proof surface. Add a sloped roof and flashing.
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post #73 of 111 Old 06-18-2014, 08:49 PM - Thread Starter
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lol. that's a lot of work.

If you are going to go through that trouble you might as well pour a lolly column you can then just put pressure treated lumber across.

You are planing to do this:




????


Why can't you just start building with pressure treated lumber on top of the same style cement pillars ? Skip the shipping crate all together.

I hate to keep trying to talk you out of doing the shipping crate because I want to see the results and it's a cool idea. But I think there might be alternatives for you that work better.

If your worry is structural integrity there is plenty of sites online or youtube videos that show you how to properly frame a wall or run ceiling or floor joists. This is simple stuff that low paid uneducated constructions workers do daily. Some of the dumbest kids I went to high school with frame houses for a living. Anyone can learn how.

I guess if you really wanted to go overkill to be sure you could extend that lolly column pillar (the metal pole) from inside the ground and inside the concrete footing you pour all the way up to the ceiling height and hide the pole in the wall (after you fill with cement). Then run engineered lumber (way overkill) across them for the span. That would hold a roof up.. lol

I've seen entire house held up with stuff like that. It's simple stuff unless you live in quicksand.
Not that exactly, it looks a little small. But something similar. 4 level pads for the container to sit on.

I'm still considering other building structures, but want to flesh out the 20' container as a thought experiment so I have as a fall back plan. For some reason, I really think it could work. That 5.2 system with two Martys might be killer in a 140 square ft. (Or a 5.4 /evil laugh.)

The $2000 metal garage someone else posted is in contention. I'm still waiting to hear
back from my local cement company on the cost to just pour the slab and footing so that I might be able to do the rest.
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post #74 of 111 Old 06-19-2014, 07:47 AM
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You should be looking into garage and garden shed builds rather than new home construction builds because of costs. You don't need a full basement, foundation and all that. Just a slab or pillar columns for support. Use pressure treated lumber for the base and the rest should fall in line nicely for you. I've been in some nice 10x20 and 12x24 garden sheds that I've said to myself this space could make a good theater. If you sub out 8 foot walls with 10 foot even better. You could also do a double pitch roof or an extra height peak to gain some extra ceiling space in the center. Costs might be a bit more with vapor barriers, insulation, siding and roofing but then again your not comparing apples to apples it's apples to oranges at that point.

I do like the shipping container idea; it's cool. I just don't think it would look great from the exterior and it would be a shame to spend so much money and trouble trying to shoehorn a theater in an a non ideal space. I like what Tedd is doing ^ he's got good ideas.

If you end up siding and roofing this shipping container, modifying it's dimensions, and pouring cement base plates or support pillars you might as well go with more traditional construction at that point since the trouble and costs of the shipping container are approaching the cost and trouble of constructing a real structure. Saving money isn't the same as getting less because it costs less. The width is not adequate as it is, but depending on how you expand the width the idea can work.

You are right that a tight space of steel sealed up will be a bass lovers dream. You'll have no SPL problems with two Marty cubes.

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post #75 of 111 Old 06-19-2014, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Why can't you just start building with pressure treated lumber on top of the same style cement pillars ? Skip the shipping crate all together.
Anything permanent needs to be built to code and permitted, and I just don't think I could DIY all that myself. (crappy back after back surgery). Going through a general contractor friend, even discounted from his normal rate, is still more than I wanted to spend. The shipping crate seems a good compromise.

I'm thinking that just getting a slab poured and then doing concrete block and morter, or possibly buying a metal garage kit might be the way I'm going to go, then finish it out with standard sound proofing methods described in the forums here. But again, I want to flesh out this container concept first to see if it is viable.

A few years ago I built a 12x12 wooden deck and built and put metal small tool shed on it. The shed is a few inches narrower than the deck, and water kept pooling up and getting under the walls, and condensation keeps forming on the roof and dripping on the things I want to keep dry. Every summer I buy a tube of sealant and squirt it around the edge just to try to keep it dry. Of course it is uninsulated and not conditioned, so I'm know why that happens. But I am imagining a larger shop for a theater having the same issues and shudder.

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post #76 of 111 Old 06-19-2014, 02:27 PM
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I guess I was thinking that you would skip doing code in both cases making it more apples to apples. Would anyone know or care if you built a non code structure? What specific code would you violate? Not wanting to DIY is a valid reason, but if you plan to drywall that's harder than most of the other stuff on your back FYI.

I look forward to seeing the result of the shipping crate idea if that is what you end up doing. It's a cool idea.

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post #77 of 111 Old 06-19-2014, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
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I guess I was thinking that you would skip doing code in both cases making it more apples to apples. Would anyone know or care if you built a non code structure? What specific code would you violate? Not wanting to DIY is a valid reason, but if you plan to drywall that's harder than most of the other stuff on your back FYI.

I look forward to seeing the result of the shipping crate idea if that is what you end up doing. It's a cool idea.
Got popped here years ago for building without a permit doing a carport. It was my father in laws work. I think he had to pay a fine, but don't recall for sure. It was around 2002.

Of course that was right out in front of the house. A container in back probably wouldn't get noticed. I suppose I'm thinking that it will effect the resale value down the road if it is permanent, permitted, and built to code.
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post #78 of 111 Old 06-19-2014, 04:03 PM
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Got popped here years ago for building without a permit doing a carport. It was my father in laws work. I think he had to pay a fine, but don't recall for sure. It was around 2002.

Of course that was right out in front of the house. A container in back probably wouldn't get noticed. I suppose I'm thinking that it will effect the resale value down the road if it is permanent, permitted, and built to code.
But that's not apples to apples. It's apples to oranges. That was my point.

You might want to check more into the codes regarding a shipping container because that could be considered a metal structure dwelling or require code depending on the inspectors viewpoint.

Code isn't a bad thing either especially when it's promoting safety. I don't always care about code per say, but safety is paramount. Structurally sound, proper wiring etc... Those codes exist for a reason. You want to follow those.
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post #79 of 111 Old 06-19-2014, 07:41 PM
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How about two containers offset in two planes? With an infill section to create more
room depth.
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File Type: jpg 2 and infill.JPG (114.4 KB, 18 views)
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post #80 of 111 Old 06-19-2014, 08:50 PM
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and trying to simplify....


Speaker cloth walls with surround speakers and acoustical treatments behind the fabric.


On concrete piers, with two smaller concrete slabs for the entry and the mechanical room/secondary exit.
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post #81 of 111 Old 06-20-2014, 10:04 AM
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I kinda like where Tedd is heading with this one. I'd go with 2 containers side by side. Hire a local steel welder to torch out the two walls that meet eachother and use the metal as exterior gussets across the roof for support. Then you could throw some purlin boards up there, sheath it, and roof it for not much cost.
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post #82 of 111 Old 06-21-2014, 03:05 AM
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Could the infill idea could be used with a high cube container beside the house if you have room?


And taking this further, maybe plant a shorty cube on the end, and do the entry on the back wall,
at riser level. This entry area could also house any mechanicals and av rack.

I also have wondered often about Lamm style conference seating for a tight space. I still am not that
positive about an 8' wide room, but I think I'd be thinking a 2/3 seating arrangement with a side door
up front.

http://www.lamm.it/eng/prodotti/conference/

There's also a pallet style container that is 2" wider, European style. No idea if you could find one over
here.....)
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post #83 of 111 Old 06-21-2014, 10:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Could the infill idea could be used with a high cube container beside the house if you have room?


And taking this further, maybe plant a shorty cube on the end, and do the entry on the back wall,
at riser level. This entry area could also house any mechanicals and av rack.

I also have wondered often about Lamm style conference seating for a tight space. I still am not that
positive about an 8' wide room, but I think I'd be thinking a 2/3 seating arrangement with a side door
up front.

http://www.lamm.it/eng/prodotti/conference/

There's also a pallet style container that is 2" wider, European style. No idea if you could find one over
here.....)
Nope. I've got 9ft of clearance beside the house.

So now my wife wants me to wait until her mother no longer lives with us, then I can have the 24x15 ft room in the house to do with as I wish. (Currently used to display her deceased father's collectible vintage train sets and and toys. Can't touch it while mother in law is here, but she has no plans to ever move out )

Not sure which way I'll go now. May just put things on hold and play with these for a bit:

http://www.avforums.com/review/sony-...s-review.10290

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post #84 of 111 Old 06-21-2014, 11:53 AM
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Nice! What's the cost on something like that? Grab a nice 4k display and set it up for very close viewing distance and one seat and you can make a mini one chair personal theater in a 6 foot room, or in the corner of a bedroom. That's a nice hold over.

I use my ipad to watch stuff in bed all the time with headphones and even though I have a 7.1 home theater set up in the same room (denon 3312, Polk and optoma projector on 92") I actually prefer the ipad with headphones in a lot of cases.

The sound is great with headphones without any fuss, And I can watch without my contacts or glasses. I'm nearsighted so I just put the ipad on my chest and within the near field of vision I have and it looks great.

With those headphones you could build a sweet little HTPC that did great 4k up conversion and make a nice little personal 1 man theater with great picture and sound. I like it.

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post #85 of 111 Old 06-21-2014, 04:01 PM
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Another thought is a Smyth Research Realizer A8.





http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul1...ealiser-a8.htm


http://www.cnet.com/news/smyth-reali...er-headphones/


http://www.positive-feedback.com/Iss...h_realiser.htm


Smyth Research "SVS" is finally available for purchase!


Not cheap but Gary Reber of Widescreen Review raved about them.
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post #86 of 111 Old 06-21-2014, 11:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Nice, I'm sure. I actually looked around to see if anyone carried them locally to demo, but couldn't find a dealer in Oregon. But $3700 is unrealistic. I also never found out for sure if they had "preset" rooms you could install, as my room is crap, and recording it would be obscene.


The Sony headphone and DSP I can get for $360 (Sony partner program saves 10%)
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post #87 of 111 Old 06-22-2014, 05:38 AM
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$3700 for stellar audio in a "crap" (or small) space is where I see there's value.

You get head tracking, and your room's flawed sonic imprint isn't an issue. And you are using your
ear profile not someone else's, which may work good or may not. And you could pay to get your
measurements done at a partnered sound mixing studio.

Doesn't mean I wouldn't make the Sony my very first step....

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post #88 of 111 Old 06-22-2014, 06:00 AM
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Oregon Chris

Before getting married a couple of years ago, I could play my home theater audio as loud as I wanted....which really wasn't all that loud or so I thought.

Post marriage, I had to turn it down a lot. That's roughly $20K in audio equipment that's not getting used to its best.

So for the times when wife wants to go to bed early and I want to stay up I pull out a fairly good pair of headphones. I forget the brand name but they cost around $500. Granted it's not 7.1 surround, but it sure beats spending $50K building on or as in your case trying to figure out a way to do it on the cheap without having problems with the permits and such.

As a side benefit of these headphones, if you later loose interest you haven't spent a ton of money on something you can't use for anything else.

Samsung 64F8500, Panasonic 65VT50, Oppo 95, Tivo Roamio for OTA, Dish VIP722, Marantz AV8801 preamp, Rotel Amps, Atlantic Tech 8200 speakers, Seaton Submersive HP, Calman 5, Chromapure, Accupel DVG-5000, i1Display3pro, i1pro2, eecolor colorbox.
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post #89 of 111 Old 06-22-2014, 06:07 AM
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I think the shipping container is a great idea! It may have a "learning curve" that come along with it, but I my self am eying a couple to live in. I've seen really nice set ups using them. When you figure all the costs involved, building a new structure is just not reasonable.
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post #90 of 111 Old 06-22-2014, 09:53 AM
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You can build a really nice 10x15 shed for under $3000. Perfect size for a one row personal screening room. Interior finishes extra but you'd have to do that with a steel container anyway.
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