2 rows...5.1 or 7.1 with back row close to wall...Help - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 21 Old 07-14-2014, 05:16 PM - Thread Starter
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2 rows...5.1 or 7.1 with back row close to wall...Help

Hi...
Trying to decide 5.1 or 7.1

I have 2 rows in a 20ft long by 16ft wide room.

Second row is within 4-5 inches from the back wall (which enables the chairs to recline)

second row head position is 19ft from front screen which will place ears about 15 inches from back wall .
The back row has 5 chairs which are about 16 inches to side wall (or about 30 inches to ears from side wall )wall
front row is 4 chairs and will be 12.5 from front screen...Attached is a rough schematic from 3d renderings I did from overhead and sides...I just drew the chairs as a bench but they are actually separate chairs.

I fear I did not leave myself much room behind the back row...

a) should this be a 5.1 or 7.1 set up?
b) what type of speaker should I be using for the rear? A satellite or a surround (one of the flatish speakers that fire have speaker angles at 45 degrees ...

I was all set to go with a Triad system (silver) in Room LCR with silver in room satellites but noticed this issue of the back row and speaker placement .. I wanted to be able to have upgrade path for Atmos with out moving speakers around.....SHould I be getting Triad Surrounds instead? I see SVS has a surround that has a Duet mode....it can function as two separate speakers in one box.....Maybe that would be a solution .....Anyways, trying to solve this last issue...was about to order when I noticed this...DOH!....any help?
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Last edited by danrudy; 07-14-2014 at 05:20 PM.
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post #2 of 21 Old 07-14-2014, 05:26 PM
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With your main row of seating away from the back wall, you are an ideal candidate for a 7.1-speaker layout.

Place the Side speakers directly to the sides of the main row, mounted a couple of feet above ear level. The Rear speakers should go on the back wall, spread at least 9 feet (60 degrees) apart, also mounted a couple of feet above ear level (firing over the heads of listeners in the back row, so it won't be distracting).

This should give you wrap-around envelopment and excellent rear-vs-side separation in the surround field, which just wouldn't be possible with only 2 surround speakers.

Sanjay
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post #3 of 21 Old 07-14-2014, 06:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
With your main row of seating away from the back wall, you are an ideal candidate for a 7.1-speaker layout.

Place the Side speakers directly to the sides of the main row, mounted a couple of feet above ear level. The Rear speakers should go on the back wall, spread at least 9 feet (60 degrees) apart, also mounted a couple of feet above ear level (firing over the heads of listeners in the back row, so it won't be distracting).

This should give you wrap-around envelopment and excellent rear-vs-side separation in the surround field, which just wouldn't be possible with only 2 surround speakers.
Sanjay...

Thanks for quick reply...
WIll the back row folks get the benefit of the rear speakers on the back wall or will it just go over their head. ALso, on the side, since the speakers I am leaning towards are about 7-8 inches deep, I prefer to have them about 7-8 ft off the floor (so no one bumps their head as they walk under them and for aesthtiques....the ceilings are 10ft high in my room), Will that height be ok?
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post #4 of 21 Old 07-14-2014, 06:58 PM
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Listeners in the back row will benefit from the Rear speakers to the extent that they will hear those sounds AND those sounds will be distinct from what they hear coming from the Side speakers.

As for Side speaker height, I mounted mine just above 6 feet, for the exact same reason you mention (keep guests from banging their heads). A foot higher than that will be fine.

Sanjay
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post #5 of 21 Old 07-14-2014, 08:01 PM
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If your room has exposed studs then I would go at least 7.1. I have a similar sized room and I'm wiring for 9.2.4. Dolby Atmos could very well take off and I am going to wire for it.

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post #6 of 21 Old 07-14-2014, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
With your main row of seating away from the back wall, you are an ideal candidate for a 7.1-speaker layout.

Place the Side speakers directly to the sides of the main row, mounted a couple of feet above ear level. The Rear speakers should go on the back wall, spread at least 9 feet (60 degrees) apart, also mounted a couple of feet above ear level (firing over the heads of listeners in the back row, so it won't be distracting).

This should give you wrap-around envelopment and excellent rear-vs-side separation in the surround field, which just wouldn't be possible with only 2 surround speakers.
This is exactly what I did in my room. I don't have regular full time seating in the very back row but when we add additional chairs for the overflow crowd in the room the effects Sanjay says will occur is exactly what happens in my room. I usually sit in the overflow to be a good host.

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103 inch AT screen with 9.x playback. IB subs. Two with dual 15s and one with dual 12s. Screen channels with Minimus 77s. Minimus 7 on front wide and front high and wides and sides. Room is perfect size for smaller speakers like the Minimus speakers. Approx. 17x13x8. Tower speakers were taking up to much room. Onkyo 818 used as pre-amp. Power amp duties handled by HK 2.1 Kenwood KM-X1. Hafler DH200.
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post #7 of 21 Old 07-14-2014, 08:56 PM
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How large is your screen going to be.

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post #8 of 21 Old 07-14-2014, 10:25 PM - Thread Starter
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How large is your screen going to be.

Have a 140 inch 2.35

Plan is to put CC above the screen angling down to have direct line of sight to both rows
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post #9 of 21 Old 07-14-2014, 10:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Listeners in the back row will benefit from the Rear speakers to the extent that they will hear those sounds AND those sounds will be distinct from what they hear coming from the Side speakers.

As for Side speaker height, I mounted mine just above 6 feet, for the exact same reason you mention (keep guests from banging their heads). A foot higher than that will be fine.
Thanks again!!

Feel much more confident about setting room up now for speakers. Honestly, I thought my rears were suppose to be in the corner side....I feel much better having a plan to put them on the back wall ! Ithought I was going to be doing a compromise setup. I am glad that it is "ideal" for a 7.1
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post #10 of 21 Old 07-14-2014, 10:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thestoneman View Post
If your room has exposed studs then I would go at least 7.1. I have a similar sized room and I'm wiring for 9.2.4. Dolby Atmos could very well take off and I am going to wire for it.

I think I will get the wiring done for the 7.1
I plan to have 4 ceiling speakers. I will have easy access for that so I can add the ceilings at any time. SO endgame will be 7.1.4 or 7.2.4
But this will require a 11 channel AV receiver.
That is the other remaining issue for me. Is anyone making a 11 channel Atmos enabled receiver. I want to buy a receiver now as well as my wife want this project completed ASAP! I would rather buy one upgradeable receiver then have to swap one out in 6 months....I see Yamamah 3040 will have firmware update. But, is that a 9.2 or 11 channel speaker? BEst I can tell it is 9 and can use an additional two channels with another amplifier....
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post #11 of 21 Old 07-15-2014, 01:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danrudy View Post
SO endgame will be 7.1.4 or 7.2.4
You need to pre-wire for the speakers in yellow (Top Fronts and Top Rears).


Sanjay
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post #12 of 21 Old 07-15-2014, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
You need to pre-wire for the speakers in yellow (Top Fronts and Top Rears).


Thanks, Again very helpful.


I purchased the 7 speakers this morning...Hoping to take delivery in about 7-10 days.
With regard to the sides which are suppose to be level with first row.
As you can see on the diagram on prior posting and the attached pic on this one, my AV cabinet is about at the level of the first row in side wall. Actually, more of an AV niche. This precludes me simply handing it on side wall as their is an opening there for the AV closet niche.
I suppose I can place the side speaker just forward to the niche which would put the sides just anterior to the first row. Alternatively, I can place it in the niche and hang it on the wall. I envision a little shelf along the wall of the niche that is towards the front of the room. I would do it so it was flush with side wall and not recessed into the niche. THis way it is above the cabinet height and not recessed into the niche. I figure since this is a satellite speaker and is sound waves only out the front there will be no effect from the niche opening behind it to mess up the effects. Is that a correct assumption?
Is either preferential to the other?
Thanks
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post #13 of 21 Old 07-15-2014, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by danrudy View Post
I suppose I can place the side speaker just forward to the niche which would put the sides just anterior to the first row.
That might end up being a bonus rather than a problem, since placing those speakers slightly forward of the listening position will add spaciousness.

Sanjay
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post #14 of 21 Old 07-15-2014, 01:22 PM
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Sanjay are you not concerned with being too far vertically off axis if the speakers are mounted that high? Speakers generally have pretty narrow operating window vertically due to interference between vertically stacked drivers. Personally I would have suggested mounting the rears lower and in wall and using a coaxial of some kind.

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post #15 of 21 Old 07-15-2014, 02:34 PM
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Nyal, with the back row 4-5 inches from the back wall, my main concern was that the rear speakers not be a constant distraction to those listeners. In-walls mounted lower would be very close to their ears. Hence the suggestion to have bookshelves fire over their heads.

Also, with that row being so close to a wall, I figured it would be used more how Alan described a few posts up, as overflow seating rather than for critical listening.

As for off-axis response, the speakers can be tilted and/or toed-in towards the listening area. My side speakers are around ±80° from centre, mounted 6 feet up (to clear the heads of most guests) and pointed at the listening area (actually, cross-toed to the person at the opposite end of the couch).

If you've got alternate suggestions, now is the time (before the OP starts nailing speakers to the wall).

Sanjay
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post #16 of 21 Old 07-15-2014, 03:39 PM
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The way your describing your room, it is much like mine!

Check out the thread in my signature. I have the same number of seats, in the same configuration, and the same room depth.

I went with 7.2 and it's AWESOME! You can see more about how it laid out in my thread about the build.
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post #17 of 21 Old 07-15-2014, 04:25 PM
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My room is 16x17 with back row few inches off wall. I have 7.3 and sound great. Back row is used for if we have guest but with 4 of us it's usually front row. My rears are episode 500's in the ceiling and in side wall.
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post #18 of 21 Old 07-15-2014, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Nyal, with the back row 4-5 inches from the back wall, my main concern was that the rear speakers not be a constant distraction to those listeners. In-walls mounted lower would be very close to their ears. Hence the suggestion to have bookshelves fire over their heads.

Also, with that row being so close to a wall, I figured it would be used more how Alan described a few posts up, as overflow seating rather than for critical listening.

As for off-axis response, the speakers can be tilted and/or toed-in towards the listening area. My side speakers are around ±80° from centre, mounted 6 feet up (to clear the heads of most guests) and pointed at the listening area (actually, cross-toed to the person at the opposite end of the couch).

If you've got alternate suggestions, now is the time (before the OP starts nailing speakers to the wall).
No you are spot on, I did not properly read the initial post and missed the 4-5" thing. It's not easy to aim a Triad in wall as it's designed for in wall installation with dog legs to hold it to the sheetrock. However you could use their in ceilings with the angled baffles to point the speaker down towards the seating area.

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post #19 of 21 Old 07-15-2014, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post
It's not easy to aim a Triad in wall as it's designed for in wall installation with dog legs to hold it to the sheetrock.
Is the OP using in-walls?

Sanjay
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post #20 of 21 Old 07-15-2014, 08:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Good idea, IF the OP is using in-walls, then the angled in-ceiling speakers (mounted in the wall) would be better than using their in-walls for surrounds (and eventually on the ceiling for the OP's next major upgrade).
Hi guys,
I purchased and am awaiting delivery inRoom silver Triads.
This includes the triad silver LCR and 4 silver satellites http://www.triadspeakers.com/products/irssat.html

The center channel will be made to be horizontal by triad as a minor upgrade.

Am at work so will respond more fully when I get home a little later.
I have no issue nutting these in brackets and putting them at an angle.
However, I am not sure where my prime seating postion will be. I suspect for 16.9 content I will prefer front row but I may prefer second row for 2.34 given the image size....I am putting in a 140 diagonal 2.35 screen to use in constant image height which should be about a 110 diagonal 16:9
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post #21 of 21 Old 07-15-2014, 08:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Is the OP using in-walls?

No...inRoom....these are not in wall. That is not a real option given the space...the walls are not amenable to placing an in wall....they will have to be attached to the wall

http://www.triadspeakers.com/products/irssat.html

Last edited by danrudy; 07-15-2014 at 09:00 PM.
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