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post #61 of 130 Old 05-25-2016, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by scottyroo View Post
Just passed the 1 year mark since moving into our house and unfortunately haven't made a dent in the build-out yet. My family has been relocated to the UK recently so my brother in law and his family are living in the house.

The pre-planning information gathering on AVS and on this post was crucial in planning the concrete shell of the room. THANK YOU!

As it stands, my 3D rendered plan a few posts up with Gandalf on the screen is still the general plan. Anticipated start date is most likely about 1 year away. I CANNOT wait to get going...

So a question for you all... In my mind I am hoping to spend about $10k-$15k on this build. I have a connection from SnapAV that will help out loads. Is $10k-$15 going to be enough? Tell me where my budgeting is off...

$2,000 projector (Epson 5030 or similar... hopefully more affordable 4k using TI's new DLP chip will be out by then in this price range)
$2,000 for 160" AT screen and Speakers (SnapAV)
$1,500 for Receiver, additional amps, cables, rack, misc networking and AV (SnapAV)
$2,500 seating (SofaMart "The Cloud" - already have one row of this from my previous multipurpose Home Theater)

This is where it gets cloudy... the build and labor costs. Tell me if I'm in the ballpark...

$1,000 ??? Framing (20x30x10 with 2 tiers and stage)
$500 ??? Wiring
$500 ??? Soundproofing
$1000 ??? Wiring and Lighting
$500 ??? Drywall
$1,500 ??? Paint and finish work
$1,000 Carpet
$1,000 Bar and Seating
Man, ANOTHER year....the anticipation must be kill'n ya.

I'm glad to see another concrete bunker build. I did the same when we were designing our new home.The area I had to work with under the garage was ~ 33x22.Since you have another year to plan, take a look at my build. One of the items you didn't mention was HVAC. That will also be an additional cost to factor in.

Good Luck!

PS: You allotted $$ for soundproofing. Since this room will be in a concrete shell under a non livable space, you need not worry a bit about sound proofing, at least anything beyond insulation in the stud cavities.


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post #62 of 130 Old 05-25-2016, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by rms8 View Post

PS: You allotted $$ for soundproofing. Since this room will be in a concrete shell under a non livable space, you need not worry a bit about sound proofing, at least anything beyond insulation in the stud cavities.


.
I wondered about this, and kind of figured you wouldn't need to do much, but nice to hear from someone with experience.

I am curious, what was the up charge for you guys to do this under a garage?

I am not sure,but there is a chance i'll be in the market to build a new house, and have wondered about doing this.
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post #63 of 130 Old 08-08-2017, 03:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Man, ANOTHER year....the anticipation must be kill'n ya.

I'm glad to see another concrete bunker build. I did the same when we were designing our new home.The area I had to work with under the garage was ~ 33x22.Since you have another year to plan, take a look at my build. One of the items you didn't mention was HVAC. That will also be an additional cost to factor in.

Good Luck!

PS: You allotted $$ for soundproofing. Since this room will be in a concrete shell under a non livable space, you need not worry a bit about sound proofing, at least anything beyond insulation in the stud cavities.


.
Thanks for the shout... I was just creeping on your build and it looks fabulous! We got back from the UK last month and starting to get subs in to look at the job. FINALLY GETTING GOING ON THIS AGAIN AFTER 3 YEARS!

Got a few questions for you....

You mentioned in your build that you don't have the build connected to the house at all but didn't you have a Panasonic air exchange setup that connected it with another part of your basement?

I saw your minisplit... Would you the minisplit is necessary if you are doing an air exchange setup?

I don't want my HVAC connected to the room and think an air exchange only setup with another room in my basement would be adequate. I would wire it to turn on with my main unit's blower. Thoughts?

I saw your ceiling you mounted 2x4's horizontally for framing and got rigid insulation. I like that to maximize ceiling height. What did you use to mount the wood to concrete? Are you happy with the insulation? Would this support a mounted projector as well? Thoughts?
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post #64 of 130 Old 08-10-2017, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by scottyroo View Post
Thanks for the shout... I was just creeping on your build and it looks fabulous! We got back from the UK last month and starting to get subs in to look at the job. FINALLY GETTING GOING ON THIS AGAIN AFTER 3 YEARS!

Got a few questions for you....

You mentioned in your build that you don't have the build connected to the house at all but didn't you have a Panasonic air exchange setup that connected it with another part of your basement?

I saw your minisplit... Would you the minisplit is necessary if you are doing an air exchange setup?

I don't want my HVAC connected to the room and think an air exchange only setup with another room in my basement would be adequate. I would wire it to turn on with my main unit's blower. Thoughts?

I saw your ceiling you mounted 2x4's horizontally for framing and got rigid insulation. I like that to maximize ceiling height. What did you use to mount the wood to concrete? Are you happy with the insulation? Would this support a mounted projector as well? Thoughts?
Dang....Photosuckit dropped my pics from my build thread. UHG!

Anywho, regarding your question on the minisplit. I rarely use it in the summer. As a matter of fact, I haven't used it in AC mode at all this year. Since it typically just my wife, son and dogs, and the size of the room, we don't need the AC. occasionally i might turn the large Panasonic Whisper air-exchanger on, but maybe twice this year. If we had a room full of folks to watch a movie, then I would need the AC, but so far not. But just because we rarely use the AC, we DO use the heater...every time we watch a movie in the winter. If you live in a warmer climate during the winter months, you may not need it.

I have the Panasonic on a timer. It automatically exchanges the air twice a day for 5 minutes.....just to circulate the air in that room. I was going to connect the Panasonic to be triggered by a 12VDC trigger so it turns on when the Denon turns on, but never wired it up for that yet. Got all the parts, just never felt it was necessary after using the room.

Regarding the ceiling....I too have a projector mounted to the ceiling. I used construction adhesive on each 2x4 plus Tapcons. In the area of the projector I used 2x8's to give me plenty of area for the projector.


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post #65 of 130 Old 08-28-2017, 03:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Dang....Photosuckit dropped my pics from my build thread. UHG!

Anywho, regarding your question on the minisplit. I rarely use it in the summer. As a matter of fact, I haven't used it in AC mode at all this year. Since it typically just my wife, son and dogs, and the size of the room, we don't need the AC. occasionally i might turn the large Panasonic Whisper air-exchanger on, but maybe twice this year. If we had a room full of folks to watch a movie, then I would need the AC, but so far not. But just because we rarely use the AC, we DO use the heater...every time we watch a movie in the winter. If you live in a warmer climate during the winter months, you may not need it.

I have the Panasonic on a timer. It automatically exchanges the air twice a day for 5 minutes.....just to circulate the air in that room. I was going to connect the Panasonic to be triggered by a 12VDC trigger so it turns on when the Denon turns on, but never wired it up for that yet. Got all the parts, just never felt it was necessary after using the room.

Regarding the ceiling....I too have a projector mounted to the ceiling. I used construction adhesive on each 2x4 plus Tapcons. In the area of the projector I used 2x8's to give me plenty of area for the projector.


.
Thank you my man!!!

We are FINALLY ready to rock and roll on this build!!! Selected my framing contractor today and I've decided to sub it job by job as we go. Hopefully we have a finished product 3-4 months from now.

As I'm an obviously amateur designing this theater and making decisions on my own I'd love to ask more questions for you and the general community:

Lights! I'm going with the 2x4's flat against the celing like you did. Is light fixture depth an issue? What types of lights should i do with 3" clearance?

Insulation! The framer said that the hollow core slab is enough for insulation and nothing required in ceiling. True? What should I do with insulation in ceiling and walls?

Stage and platform! This whole area is a 3' drop from the rest of my basement. Framer said that 2x10's on hangers anchored to ledge around concrete should span 14' for the the platform area with little bounce and be very sturdy without a pony wall to brace in middle. Is this how we should build the platform? I'm not going to fill stage with sand - what are cost effective ways to make sure i don't have regrets with the stage and platform subfloors?

HVAC! I currently have two 8" supply and return ducts coming from under the floor. These ducts run to my mech room and are just capped off right now. I'm planning on putting a booster fan on each of them and have them exchange air with my home office in the basement. How many/where should supply and return registers be located in theater room?

Design! I have a 3d render of my plans below. Do these look ok? This is what the framer is going to build off of so I kinda need it to be spot on.

Now that I'm actually starting to build, what else am I missing in my plans as I embark on this build? 3D plan and pics of the blank canvas below
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post #66 of 130 Old 08-31-2017, 12:21 PM - Thread Starter
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A couple of updates. Hopefully we start framing this weekend. I'll pull this conversation I was having on another thread to this thread about HVAC.

I have two 10" (not 8" as posted before) ducts run to the room. I don't think my HVAC is sized for another 6000 cubic foot room. I am currently planning on putting two in line booster fans in my mech room on both the supply and return. The return will exhaust into my mech room and the supply fan will pull from cool air in our main basement area.

I need to decide where to place these returns. How many registers and where should I place them. Any thoughts? The theater room is a 3' drop from the rest of the basement so like I've said before, I ran the ducts under the foundation before they poured footings. They pop out at ground level in the theater so the flexible duct work can go under the riser area. Ceiling is no-go since there will only be 2" clearance from sheetrock to concrete above. Walls will be tight since I'm framing with 2x4's and don't want to fur the walls out too much. Since I'm more concerned about this room getting warm, I would like to have my returns high on wall. Is that right?

Here are some more plans. I've also updated my plans with updated color scheme (gray and black) and acoustic panels. Recommendations on where to order good/cheap custom sized panels welcome!
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post #67 of 130 Old 08-31-2017, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyroo View Post
A couple of updates. Hopefully we start framing this weekend. I'll pull this conversation I was having on another thread to this thread about HVAC.

I have two 10" (not 8" as posted before) ducts run to the room. I don't think my HVAC is sized for another 6000 cubic foot room. I am currently planning on putting two in line booster fans in my mech room on both the supply and return. The return will exhaust into my mech room and the supply fan will pull from cool air in our main basement area.

I need to decide where to place these returns. How many registers and where should I place them. Any thoughts? The theater room is a 3' drop from the rest of the basement so like I've said before, I ran the ducts under the foundation before they poured footings. They pop out at ground level in the theater so the flexible duct work can go under the riser area. Ceiling is no-go since there will only be 2" clearance from sheetrock to concrete above. Walls will be tight since I'm framing with 2x4's and don't want to fur the walls out too much. Since I'm more concerned about this room getting warm, I would like to have my returns high on wall. Is that right?

Here are some more plans. I've also updated my plans with updated color scheme (gray and black) and acoustic panels. Recommendations on where to order good/cheap custom sized panels welcome!
I seen this on another thread and have subscribed to yours now. So I take it on the 2-10" pipes coming in one is a return and the other is a supply? I guess since it is that big you could use that as your plenum back to your system. I would think running the supplies through the riser and coming out of the steps would be the best way to go. For you returns I woulds think you would want them to run along the back wall up say in a column at the bag to draw the air up over everyone. As for if your system is big enough I would have a HVAC guy come out an tell you. It depends on on big the system is for the rest of your house and whether it can handle it. In mine, my system is over-sized for our house so I can add some more runs to it and use dampers to ope areas up in the basement when I need it. My main level is around 2500 sqft and I have a 5 ton system. A 3 to 3.5 ton probably would have been enough. Another thing my HVAC guy told me since there is no really lose or gain in the basement it shouldn't tax my system much. Yours is all concrete so it may be better. HVAC people should give you a free estimate as to what the think. To control noise though I would use flex duct.

For your riser if you decide to fill it with sand that is going to be a lot of sand. You could make it a base trap or even add butt kickers in the riser to get more of a feeling. One of our guys in our area did that and it is pretty cool.

I like your build and wish I had you height. If your eyes are at 12' from the screen in the front row you could go with a 163" 2.35:1 screen. That would give you a 130" 16:9 screen. Now that you are back Epson and JVC have projectors in the $2k to $3K that will automatically shift for you and no need for a added lens. Check out the Epson 5040/6040 or JVC-RS420/520. I have a 120" 16:9 screen and am thinking of eventually going to a 150" 2.35:1 screen in a 14'x 26'x9' room.

I would check out this build by @chirpie . Very similar.

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post #68 of 130 Old 08-31-2017, 02:49 PM - Thread Starter
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I seen this on another thread and have subscribed to yours now. So I take it on the 2-10" pipes coming in one is a return and the other is a supply? I guess since it is that big you could use that as your plenum back to your system. I would think running the supplies through the riser and coming out of the steps would be the best way to go. For you returns I woulds think you would want them to run along the back wall up say in a column at the bag to draw the air up over everyone. As for if your system is big enough I would have a HVAC guy come out an tell you. It depends on on big the system is for the rest of your house and whether it can handle it. In mine, my system is over-sized for our house so I can add some more runs to it and use dampers to ope areas up in the basement when I need it. My main level is around 2500 sqft and I have a 5 ton system. A 3 to 3.5 ton probably would have been enough. Another thing my HVAC guy told me since there is no really lose or gain in the basement it shouldn't tax my system much. Yours is all concrete so it may be better. HVAC people should give you a free estimate as to what the think. To control noise though I would use flex duct.

For your riser if you decide to fill it with sand that is going to be a lot of sand. You could make it a base trap or even add butt kickers in the riser to get more of a feeling. One of our guys in our area did that and it is pretty cool.

I like your build and wish I had you height. If your eyes are at 12' from the screen in the front row you could go with a 163" 2.35:1 screen. That would give you a 130" 16:9 screen. Now that you are back Epson and JVC have projectors in the $2k to $3K that will automatically shift for you and no need for a added lens. Check out the Epson 5040/6040 or JVC-RS420/520. I have a 120" 16:9 screen and am thinking of eventually going to a 150" 2.35:1 screen in a 14'x 26'x9' room.

I would check out this build by @chirpie . Very similar.

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A ton of great feedback and advice right here. Thanks! I suppose since the ducts are popping up in my mech room already, I can easily tie the supply and return into the existing HVAC system and if it is not working out (airflow or sound isolation-wise), tie off main system connection and switch to air exchange with inline blowers down the road. That would save about $1,000 if tying into my existing system worked out..

Re: screen/projector. I'm holding off on final selection but I want to keep as much of my AV equipment sourced from SnapAV as possible. I have access to a friends and family pricing that will literally save me thousands and thousands on equipment. I love big immersive screens. That said, I have my eye on their their AT Dragonfly 160" 16:9. My primary watching position will be second row and at 18.5' from screen i will have a 36 degree viewing angle with this screen. Perfect. The front row will have a 50 degree viewing angle. I'm sure I'll find myself mocing the front row for some LotR marathons.

This screen size will really lend itself to the benefits of 4K so I'm most likely going to go with one of the new 4k DLP projectors. I'm hearing really good things about the Optoma and Acer models so far and hopefully the next few months will come with announcements of new models to expand selection. I personally had the BenQ W1070 before and it was the perfect balance of cost and image quality at only $800. I'm willing to be in the $2,000 $2,5000 range this time. As of this writing, if forced to choose a 1080p model I would go with an Epson 5040.

Edit: OO! New renders I made... sconces? Yay or nay?
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post #69 of 130 Old 08-31-2017, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by scottyroo View Post
A ton of great feedback and advice right here. Thanks! I suppose since the ducts are popping up in my mech room already, I can easily tie the supply and return into the existing HVAC system and if it is not working out (airflow or sound isolation-wise), tie off main system connection and switch to air exchange with inline blowers down the road. That would save about $1,000 if tying into my existing system worked out..

Re: screen/projector. I'm holding off on final selection but I want to keep as much of my AV equipment sourced from SnapAV as possible. I have access to a friends and family pricing that will literally save me thousands and thousands on equipment. I love big immersive screens. That said, I have my eye on their their AT Dragonfly 160" 16:9. My primary watching position will be second row and at 18.5' from screen i will have a 36 degree viewing angle with this screen. Perfect. The front row will have a 50 degree viewing angle. I'm sure I'll find myself mocing the front row for some LotR marathons.

This screen size will really lend itself to the benefits of 4K so I'm most likely going to go with one of the new 4k DLP projectors. I'm hearing really good things about the Optoma and Acer models so far and hopefully the next few months will come with announcements of new models to expand selection. I personally had the BenQ W1070 before and it was the perfect balance of cost and image quality at only $800. I'm willing to be in the $2,000 $2,5000 range this time. As of this writing, if forced to choose a 1080p model I would go with an Epson 5040.

Edit: OO! New renders I made... sconces? Yay or nay?

Sounds likea plan.

I forgot with your extra night you could go to the 160" 16:9 screen and with the Optoma UHD60 or 65 that would work. I have seen both the 5040 and 6040 as well as the JVC 420 and all are impressive. The best I have seen is the JVC -RS600, but that is way out of my range.

I haven't seen much in the way of DLP, but 5040 in 4K is pretty nice.

So agree you going to build a room inside a room or just treat the walls and ceiling. Being able to come into the back at your back riser then go down, that would be sweet.

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post #70 of 130 Old 08-31-2017, 03:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Sounds likea plan.

I forgot with your extra night you could go to the 160" 16:9 screen and with the Optoma UHD60 or 65 that would work. I have seen both the 5040 and 6040 as well as the JVC 420 and all are impressive. The best I have seen is the JVC -RS600, but that is way out of my range.

I haven't seen much in the way of DLP, but 5040 in 4K is pretty nice.

So agree you going to build a room inside a room or just treat the walls and ceiling. Being able to come into the back at your back riser then go down, that would be sweet.
Wait the 5040 is true 4k? I thought it used the same lcd pixel shift that JVC used? I read on projector central that the DLP chip (UHD60/65) side by side is much sharper 4k vs the 5040 since the DLP chip is actually producing a true 4k image. It uses so double pixel mirror magic.

Well the room is already built. You can see some pics of it a few posts up. Since it is a concrete shell I'm not going to be doing much as far as soundproofing is concerned since the mass of the concrete should take care of it. I am planning on using rigid attachments on the framing with aettnetion to acoustic detail in the platform and stage. But that is more for internal acoustics vs sound isolation.

I know solid objects are conductors of sound. You think the noise transfer with concrete and rigid attachments will be noticeable?
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post #71 of 130 Old 08-31-2017, 03:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Sounds likea plan.

I forgot with your extra night you could go to the 160" 16:9 screen and with the Optoma UHD60 or 65 that would work. I have seen both the 5040 and 6040 as well as the JVC 420 and all are impressive. The best I have seen is the JVC -RS600, but that is way out of my range.

I haven't seen much in the way of DLP, but 5040 in 4K is pretty nice.

So agree you going to build a room inside a room or just treat the walls and ceiling. Being able to come into the back at your back riser then go down, that would be sweet.
Interesting "Shoot-out" between the Epson HC4000 and the UHD60. The HC4000 is almost the exact same as the 5040 so you might find it interesting. TL;DR: The UHD60 wins in 4K HDR but the Epson is equal or better at everything else when HDR is turned off, including 4k.
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post #72 of 130 Old 09-01-2017, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by scottyroo View Post
Interesting "Shoot-out" between the Epson HC4000 and the UHD60. The HC4000 is almost the exact same as the 5040 so you might find it interesting. TL;DR: The UHD60 wins in 4K HDR but the Epson is equal or better at everything else when HDR is turned off, including 4k.
I have looked into the HC4000, but the the 5040 still has better blacks, a few more lumens and a lot high contrast ratio. Now it is $500 cheaper, but is out of my range right now. The other reason I like the Epson over the Optoma's is powered zoom to go back and fourth on screen ratios easier and they have 2.10:1 vs a 1.60:1 on zoom. You probably couldn't go bad with either though.
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post #73 of 130 Old 09-03-2017, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
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I am planning on having an exterior double door for the entrance to the rear of the concrete shell. Just framed it but got me thinking that this will be theater room surface that will be mechanically attached to the the framed wall in the adjacent room. As far as spacing goes, the interior theater wall will be decoupled from the concrete 2" so a total of 6" from concrete to paint. With that 6" interior, plus 8" of concrete concrete and 5" more framing on the adjacent room this door Have a 19" long "tunnel" or "landing" going into the theater. Is having the door framed into the adjacent basement room going to be a problem and transfer a lot of noise into home's walls? I get rsm8's comments about not soundproofing the concrete which I'm not planning on but this is the weak point of soundisolation in the build. Feedback appreciated!
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post #74 of 130 Old 09-05-2017, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Framing Door for Theater (Sound Isolation)

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Originally Posted by scottyroo View Post
I am planning on having an exterior double door for the entrance to the rear of the concrete shell. Just framed it but got me thinking that this will be theater room surface that will be mechanically attached to the the framed wall in the adjacent room. As far as spacing goes, the interior theater wall will be decoupled from the concrete 2" so a total of 6" from concrete to paint. With that 6" interior, plus 8" of concrete concrete and 5" more framing on the adjacent room this door Have a 19" long "tunnel" or "landing" going into the theater. Is having the door framed into the adjacent basement room going to be a problem and transfer a lot of noise into home's walls? I get rsm8's comments about not soundproofing the concrete which I'm not planning on but this is the weak point of soundisolation in the build. Feedback appreciated!
ECHO! ECHO! echo... echo....

Sounds like the inside of my unfinished theater.... just my own voice.....

The framer had already framed the rough opening for the theater door so we will need to re-do it with a better solution. He's cool with it and he actually really liked the solution that I designed. I came up with a solution to isolate the door's rough opening that will isolate it from sharing a wall with the rest of my house. Like I said, this area will be the only point of external sound isolation weakness for my concrete shell which is why I want to focus in on it.


3 priorities for this door:

1 - Reasonable effort to isolate sound
2 - Double door (exterior with threshold) for openness and hosting
3 - Flush with basement wall so I can open doors 180 degrees

See pics for my solution as well as how it is currently framed. the concrete opening is 2" off center with theater room which is why new framed rough opening cheats to the right a bit. Its my design and I don't know if anyone has ever done something similar as an attempt to isolate noise from a door leading to a concrete room. I also don't know what difference it will make either. When we drywall I will need to look at how/if I am going to soundproof the external drywall attachment to the door jam since that will be the only attachment to the basement walls (other than concrete).
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post #75 of 130 Old 09-06-2017, 04:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Framing / HVAC plan

Finalizing the framing and HVAC design. See pics for (almost) final design! My framer is a bit all over the place with ideas so pre-building them with software is really helping us to get on same page and come up with good ideas pre-build.

Perimeter of room will have 2.5 inch gap from concrete to 2x4 framed wall.

Faux subfloor at concrete level built with 2x4s laying flat.

Stage built with 2x6 joists 12" OC.

13' x 20.5' Platform 20" high (+3/4" Plywood for 20 3/4" total height). 2x10 joists 12" OC. Three 6x6 posts support ledger beam at rear and front and four more in corners (10 total)

10 3/4" clearance under platform for HVAC. 10" flext duct for two supply and two return registers. I put one return high and one low to solve for too hot too cold scenarios. My HVAC guy think it is overkill. Am I dumb? I am going to tie into my existing HVAC in mechanical room to start and if there are issues I will set up air exchange system later.

What am I missing?
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post #76 of 130 Old 09-07-2017, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyroo View Post
Finalizing the framing and HVAC design. See pics for (almost) final design! My framer is a bit all over the place with ideas so pre-building them with software is really helping us to get on same page and come up with good ideas pre-build.

Perimeter of room will have 2.5 inch gap from concrete to 2x4 framed wall.

Faux subfloor at concrete level built with 2x4s laying flat.

Stage built with 2x6 joists 12" OC.

13' x 20.5' Platform 20" high (+3/4" Plywood for 20 3/4" total height). 2x10 joists 12" OC. Three 6x6 posts support ledger beam at rear and front and four more in corners (10 total)

10 3/4" clearance under platform for HVAC. 10" flext duct for two supply and two return registers. I put one return high and one low to solve for too hot too cold scenarios. My HVAC guy think it is overkill. Am I dumb? I am going to tie into my existing HVAC in mechanical room to start and if there are issues I will set up air exchange system later.

What am I missing?

I appears to be a good plan and I understand the one high and one low returns. You could just go with both of them high. What does he think is overkill. I do suggest having at least a manual damper on the supply line. That's what my HVAC guy said. That way if you are not in the room for a while you can make sure the rest of the house is getting all the cool or warm air it needs. My HVAC system is luckily over-
sized and it shouldn't be a problem when the theater or the rest of the basement needs hot or cold air.

The question I have is why are you framing the 2x4's 2.5" away from the wall? On my concrete walls in the basement I am using 1" of foam then a 1/2" gap between the foam and stud walls. Are you using 2" of foam insulation and a 1/2" gap?

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post #77 of 130 Old 09-07-2017, 10:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladeback View Post
The question I have is why are you framing the 2x4's 2.5" away from the wall? On my concrete walls in the basement I am using 1" of foam then a 1/2" gap between the foam and stud walls. Are you using 2" of foam insulation and a 1/2" gap?
I am not planning on using foam. Wanted to give myself a bit more room for insulation batting and concrete irregularities that pop out on the wall. Will also be nice to have 5.5" cavity for air returns high on wall. Framer wanted to do 3.5" but took it back to 2.5".

I think I might fire my HVAC guy. He finished the 9 runs on my basement ( I haven't had him work in theater yet) and I paid him to install an inline booster fan for my bonus room that has too long of a run to get good airflow. After he left I heard some weird noises coming from attic and I found a comical attempt at installing an inline fan. The booster fan had tipped sideways. Open wire ties, no junction box cover, no insulation on an 18" section of duct, plastic garbage bag taped to duct to use as elbow, hung the fan using duct tape on electric wire. You would not believe it. I feel bad cuz the guy is really nice and my brother referred him but I can't trust him if this is the kind of work he puts in when he thinks no one will see it.
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post #78 of 130 Old 09-08-2017, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyroo View Post
I am not planning on using foam. Wanted to give myself a bit more room for insulation batting and concrete irregularities that pop out on the wall. Will also be nice to have 5.5" cavity for air returns high on wall. Framer wanted to do 3.5" but took it back to 2.5".

I think I might fire my HVAC guy. He finished the 9 runs on my basement ( I haven't had him work in theater yet) and I paid him to install an inline booster fan for my bonus room that has too long of a run to get good airflow. After he left I heard some weird noises coming from attic and I found a comical attempt at installing an inline fan. The booster fan had tipped sideways. Open wire ties, no junction box cover, no insulation on an 18" section of duct, plastic garbage bag taped to duct to use as elbow, hung the fan using duct tape on electric wire. You would not believe it. I feel bad cuz the guy is really nice and my brother referred him but I can't trust him if this is the kind of work he puts in when he thinks no one will see it. Here is a video of it.
Wow, you may want to have your bother check out any work he did for him. That defiantly won't fly.

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post #79 of 130 Old 09-17-2017, 01:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Framing has begun!

Well the day is finally here. The main portion of the basement framing is done and the theater framing begins!

Dilemma...

I helped them snap lines then had to go out and came back to the front 8' of theater faux subfloor sheeted today. I didn't think my framer would be sheeting the floor today. I was planning on doing some foam insulation between the concrete and faux subfloor in addition to using roofers felt between the 2x4s and plywood. I'm not upset ... my fault for not telling my framer. But my question for you all is am I going to be able to tell acoustically that the faux subfloor doesn't have insulation underneath it? We will have hefty carpet and carpet on top so I wouldn't think it a big deal if I left it uninsulated, right?
Halp!!!!

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post #80 of 130 Old 09-18-2017, 03:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyroo View Post
Well the day is finally here. The main portion of the basement framing is done and the theater framing begins!

Dilemma...

I helped them snap lines then had to go out and came back to the front 8' of theater faux subfloor sheeted today. I didn't think my framer would be sheeting the floor today. I was planning on doing some foam insulation between the concrete and faux subfloor in addition to using roofers felt between the 2x4s and plywood. I'm not upset ... my fault for not telling my framer. But my question for you all is am I going to be able to tell acoustically that the faux subfloor doesn't have insulation underneath it? We will have hefty carpet and carpet on top so I wouldn't think it a big deal if I left it uninsulated, right?
Halp!!!!

I am surprised he didn't put down foam insulation between the 2x4's at least to act as a thremal barrier. I would at least want that I would think. I am not going to do that in my theater or basement, but may Dricore. How hadr would it be to pull up the plywood to insulate?

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post #81 of 130 Old 09-18-2017, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladeback View Post
I am surprised he didn't put down foam insulation between the 2x4's at least to act as a thremal barrier. I would at least want that I would think. I am not going to do that in my theater or basement, but may Dricore. How hadr would it be to pull up the plywood to insulate?
Insulated basement floors are very uncommon here in Utah. Usually it is high grade carpet pad with a moisture barrier here. The plywood is glued and nailed down with ring shank nails, so it would be pretty hard to pull up. Doable... but pretty hard. That's what I'm trying to decide... if it is worth the trouble and if I am going to be able to tel one eyota of difference when it is done. Damage plywood, glue, nails, and labor to redo would be about $200-300
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post #82 of 130 Old 09-20-2017, 03:46 AM
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My carpet pad/carpet is directly on my concrete subfloor and I think it has been perfectly fine. I have engineered hardwood floor in most of the balance of my basement, and all I have down is 6 mil plastic, and a thin little foam backing layer, and that is all good as well. I am in southern Ohio.

Normal floor joists & subfloors don't have roofing felt between them, so, again, I am not inclined to think that is a problem. Normally the plywood/osb is 'glued & screwed' to the floor joists, so, I would think if they did that, trying to pry it all up could be a pretty big deal.

I don't know if having a subfloor will create any possibility of sound reverberations or not, but that would really be my only concern.

I assume the wood in contact with the concrete floor is Treated wood, otherwise, that could also be an issue with moisture. Any framer should know that though, so, that is nothing unique to theater... any floor plates (i.e., bottom of wall) should only be treated wood.
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post #83 of 130 Old 09-20-2017, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
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My carpet pad/carpet is directly on my concrete subfloor and I think it has been perfectly fine. I have engineered hardwood floor in most of the balance of my basement, and all I have down is 6 mil plastic, and a thin little foam backing layer, and that is all good as well. I am in southern Ohio.

Normal floor joists & subfloors don't have roofing felt between them, so, again, I am not inclined to think that is a problem. Normally the plywood/osb is 'glued & screwed' to the floor joists, so, I would think if they did that, trying to pry it all up could be a pretty big deal.

I don't know if having a subfloor will create any possibility of sound reverberations or not, but that would really be my only concern.

I assume the wood in contact with the concrete floor is Treated wood, otherwise, that could also be an issue with moisture. Any framer should know that though, so, that is nothing unique to theater... any floor plates (i.e., bottom of wall) should only be treated wood.
I am thinking of just putting padding and carpet on the concrete floor in my basement to save time and money. I have rug down in my makeshift theater room now and haven't noticed it getting wet in the last few years it has been in contact with the concrete. I understand wanting the wood floor to feel the subs more, but my 2-15" subs I have are plenty for me right now. I only have them turned up about a quarter of the way on the gains on the back. The wife and kid don't like a lot of base. I know what they use to do when I lived in a duplex and the neighbors were knocking on my door to turn it down, because things were shaking on their walls.

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post #84 of 130 Old 09-22-2017, 03:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Well I decided I'm not going to rip up the already laid plywood. most of it will be covered by insulated stage anyway. I did, however, insulate the false floor that they hadn't sheeted yet.

Today I'm working on wiring layout and figuring out where I should put my mini-source rack in the room. Currently the AVR is going in closet outside of room so I will have 3-4 sources (Xbox One X, Roku Ultra, Xfinity X1, Misc) in a 10U rack. I need sources in the room so things like Xbox controllers can work and not have signal lose out because of concrete walls.

Option 1 I'm thinking of mounting this under my bar table but i would be sacrificing a seating location. Big deal?

Option 2 is in the corner but eh... symmetry. My OCD senses are tingling.

Option 3 I could Cut a 15U-ish size hole in the concrete sharing a wall with the closet under the stair well. Downside is the side of the closet sharing a wall with the theater is is under the shorter set of U-shaped stairs. This also exposes a weak-point in sound isolation.

Also working on low voltage for basement. VERY rough sketch of what i'm planning right now... didn't have time to fire up a Lucid chart or anything.
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post #85 of 130 Old 09-22-2017, 08:56 PM
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Option 3 sounds like a very bad idea...keep the integrity of your soundproofing.

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post #86 of 130 Old 09-23-2017, 01:08 PM
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I vote option 2 if you must have it in the room, if it is only the XBox that is and issue can you have it somewhere at the front that is accessible and still hidden?

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post #87 of 130 Old 09-24-2017, 07:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Framing Progress

Progress! My framers only come on Saturday and Sunday... progress isn't as fast as I'd like but the they are doing a great job and $35/hr for a two man crew ain't too shabby.

Updates:

- The false floor on the lower level of the theater is now sheeted completely. We laid the 2x4s flat and anchored with concrete pins. 24" on center horizontal blocks every 48" to anchor OSB. As you'll recall I only just caught the sheeting the false floor halfway through to let them know my plans to insulate beneath. I made the decision to not tear up what they sheeted (8 feet total, 4' of which will be covered by insulated stage). I insulated the rear portion. I wondered hoe much of a difference it would make. I walked and stomped around the false floor and you can definitely tell what part of the floor is insulated. The theater is still concrete and 'boomy and echoey' but when you step on a non-insulated poriton there is definitely more of a hollow boom. I'm sure this will be reduced once everything is finished and I have pad and carpet but worth noting.

-We attached half of the framed ceiling to the underside of the Spandeck concrete. This is the part of the build that has been given me the most anxiety the last 3 years of planning the theater. I even got advice on this from @BIGmouthinDC ... THE LEGEND back in the day regarding this. My brother lent me his rotary hammer and I was planning on using Tapcons and construction adhesive to mount the flat 2x4s to the ceiling. However, my framer said that in the dozen or so under-garage theaters he has done he just used the construction adhesive and Ramset concrete pins. Yesterday I was mulling this over and I wanted to test the adhesive stregth of the glue and the Ramset pins independently. So I had him take two 12" 2x4s and Ramset one and glue the other. I was concerned the spandeck would be too hard and it would just explode a pocked cavity and no actually set. I was wrong. In the three Ramset tests he did they were all lodge so firmly that I had to put all my weight on the crow bar which finally broke the pin... it actually didn't displodge the other half which is still in the conrete ceiling. Impressive. The glue was also impressive which had only cured for about 18 hours. I was convinced that the glue and Ramset pins every couple of feet on the green plate would be the most logical way forward. We used studs on Saturday to set the glued framing on ceiling and once dry we pinned on Sunday (we fired each pin twice to get flush with lumber).

-I am framing the treated 2x4s on the ceiling 24" inside to inside so I can make easy use of the pre-scored rigid foam. We are then going to fir the ceiling down a further 1 1/2" with non-treated 2x4s perpendicular to the treated/concrete-pinned 2x4s. We will frame the non-treated 24" on center for the sheetrock joints support. Total finished cavity will be 3" from Sheetrock to concrete.

-The platform is framed! I ended up framing the walls 1" from the concrete like @Ladeback recommended. 16" on center. The platform is framed with 2x10s 12" on center over a 13 foot span. The back stud wall is not mechanically attached tot he concrete wall and since the ledger beam supporting the joist hangers are simply nailed to the stud wall (shear strength not that great) we installed posts under the ledger beam every 48" for additional support. For the front wall we put two 2x10s running width of the room on the green plate of the false floor and blocked out the end of the joists. Planning on an addition two blocks per cavity in the platform for additional stability and sturdiness. The platform is solid.

- Funny thing happened. I was in the garage and the framers were pounding and talking. I have never been in the garage while someone was in the the theater below.... I traced the noise to a crack where the poured concrete on top of the spandeck meets the foundation and I could hear their conversation through the crack. Not good. I took a bowl of water and poured it down the crack (thinking the framers are gonna be saying "WTF!" if it leaked)... and sure enough.... "WTF!!!" My spandeck waterproofers a few years ago didn't.... waterproof. I got some gap filling foam and treated the underside of the ceiling but this has moved up my plans to do a full silicone joint seal and epoxy overlay. Getting bids tomorrow.

-Thinking about the HVAC returns in the rear of the room. I want to do both returns high but I'm looking at the wall cavity I have and its minimal to say the least. I have about 4 1/2 inches to work with. I'm thinking of getting 1" rigid foam insulation and running that in the the wall cavity against the concrete giving me 3 1/2 inches of ductless cavity for my air passage for the return. Purpose of this would to be about to run the return high. Doing it low or in floor would be no problem but I'm more worries about this room heating up than getting too cool. Thoughts on this appreciated?

Up next this week is finalizing HVAC, running conduit and low voltage. For framing we just need to sheet platform, frame columns, stage, and stairs and we should be gravy.
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post #88 of 130 Old 09-25-2017, 08:30 AM
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I notice that your riser doesn't come all the way up to you entry doorway. Do you plan on add another riser so that it is flush with the entry doorway so you don't step down right away?

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post #89 of 130 Old 09-25-2017, 09:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ladeback View Post
I notice that your riser doesn't come all the way up to you entry doorway. Do you plan on add another riser so that it is flush with the entry doorway so you don't step down right away?


The drop between the doorway and main riser area is 14” so there will be a 7” step between the doorway and main riser area. The step will be mounted right to the back concrete. For the tread on the very top step we will pin and glue a 1” strip of OSB to the edge of the concrete
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post #90 of 130 Old 09-25-2017, 09:37 AM
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Hey, congrats on making progress again, the framing is looking good!

Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyroo View Post
The additional cost to drop down 3' in that room was about $5,000 on top of the $9,000 that the suspended slab build already cost. But the whole room is still an amazing bargain at $21/sq ft to build. Its an amazing way to maximize a home plan's square footage without creating a larger footprint. And the home adds instant equity since the home will appraise way more per square foot than what you put into it.
We're looking at a move in the near future, and we might consider building new. This has me very seriously considering a suspended slab as well, and I'm doing my homework. Did these numbers end up being correct? It looks like ~$14k for a suspended 3 car garage, with 11' walls?
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