7.2 with 2 rows of seats...need advice - AVS Forum
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Old 07-23-2014, 08:56 AM - Thread Starter
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7.2 with 2 rows of seats...need advice

Hi every body,

I want to build a 7.2 home theater in a 12x26 room, I want 2 rows of 3 seats...the second row on a 12" podium.

I read a lot on the subject but I also read different advices and visions.

Can I have a pair of sorrounds for each row for maximum effect ?
If yes, how to drive the second pair? With another amp just for them ?

Some say you can't have good sound with 2 pairs and you will always have better sound in the first row becuse the speaker pair will be between the rows.

Thanks a lot !
All your comments and ideas are welcome.

I wanted to do something like this

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Old 07-23-2014, 09:57 AM
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I did something similar for my side surrounds - two on each side facing each row. I didn't do anything special (miniDSP or other forms) to deal with them, and I used dipole speakers anyway for a diffuse sound. My speakers are 8-ohm, so I was able to just connect them in parallel to a 4-ohm stable amp, and adjust the level accordingly...

It sounds good to me!

On your plan, I think you'd want to pull the side speakers forward so they're aligned with the rows, not behind them. I placed my speakers ~18" above seated ear height.

Jeff

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Old 07-23-2014, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
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ok you put 2 surround speakers on each of the two surround canals.

Did you set your amp on 4ohm or 8ohm ? 8ohm I presume.

Then you calibrated each channel to have the same db outbut at the sweet spot?
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Old 07-23-2014, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaCentaurus View Post
Did you set your amp on 4ohm or 8ohm ? 8ohm I presume.
Two 8-ohm speakers in parallel is a 4-ohm load. If your amp has an impedance range selector, it should be set for 4ohm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaCentaurus View Post
Then you calibrated each channel to have the same db output at the sweet spot?
Correct.

And note that all of the speaker wires should be home run to your equipment rack location - so that any combination like this is done at amp. That ensures you can change your mind and/or upgrade in the future.

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Old 07-23-2014, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor View Post
Two 8-ohm speakers in parallel is a 4-ohm load. If your amp has an impedance range selector, it should be set for 4ohm.



Correct.

And note that all of the speaker wires should be home run to your equipment rack location - so that any combination like this is done at amp. That ensures you can change your mind and/or upgrade in the future.
So all my speakers should have a nominal impedence of 4ohm for this to work?
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Old 07-23-2014, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaCentaurus View Post
So all my speakers should have a nominal impedence of 4ohm for this to work?
No, they should be 8-ohm nominal (each) if you intend to attach them in parallel, which will present a 4-ohm load. If you have two pairs of 4-ohm nominal speakers, you'd wire those in series to present an 8-ohm load.

Jeff

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Old 07-24-2014, 05:16 AM - Thread Starter
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What about the Center, Front and Rear?
8ohm too ?

This is my setup idea for my project. Screen size should be 120 inches for a 12 feet distance at first row.
But I read that it is very personal...some go to 135 inch...some less


Last edited by AlphaCentaurus; 07-24-2014 at 05:33 AM.
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Old 07-24-2014, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaCentaurus View Post
What about the Center, Front and Rear? 8ohm too ?
Either, but your receiver/amp need to specifically support 4-ohm loads (many do). 8-ohm nominal is the typical value for most speakers...

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Old 07-24-2014, 08:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok if I understand well I can:

use 8-ohm speakers for all 9 speakers

I put my amp on 4-ohm

I plug the surround speaker pairs in parallel (I don't know the best way...swist them together ?)

I calibrate each channel to have same DB at sweet spot

is that it ?
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Old 07-24-2014, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor View Post
Either, but your receiver/amp need to specifically support 4-ohm loads (many do).
Amps yes, but not receivers. Most receivers are not made to support 4-ohm loads. Those that do are quite expensive.
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Old 07-24-2014, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BllDo View Post
Amps yes, but not receivers. Most receivers are not made to support 4-ohm loads. Those that do are quite expensive.
I was trying to hedge by adding "receivers" to my reply since I figured someone would call out some receiver model that *does* supports 4-ohm. Guess I shoulda just left that off... <sigh>

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Old 07-24-2014, 09:30 AM - Thread Starter
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This Reveiver supports 4ohm so it would be ok ?

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...eceivers/SC-81
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Old 07-24-2014, 09:38 AM
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What speakers are you planning on using? I mean if you used some professional theater speakers like JBL 8330, 8330A, 8340, 8340A, 8320 or like speaker, the dispersion I would think should be plenty for a single speaker on your surrounds.
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Old 07-24-2014, 09:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocOrange88 View Post
What speakers are you planning on using? I mean if you used some professional theater speakers like JBL 8330, 8330A, 8340, 8340A, 8320 or like speaker, the dispersion I would think should be plenty for a single speaker on your surrounds.
I would like that each row has it's pair of surrounds for maximum effet.
I don't want the second row to have the surrounds in front of them if I use only 1 pair between the rows...even if it's a bipole
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Old 07-24-2014, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor View Post
I was trying to hedge by adding "receivers" to my reply since I figured someone would call out some receiver model that *does* supports 4-ohm. Guess I shoulda just left that off... <sigh>
I know, and obviously you are correct that some do. That Pioneer looks like it does. My reply though a little too curt (sorry on a conference call) was more aimed at the casual drive by reader who might try to hook up 10 extra speakers to his HTIB receiver than the regular AVS reader. It's all good.

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Old 07-24-2014, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BllDo View Post
I know, and obviously you are correct that some do. That Pioneer looks like it does. My reply though a little too curt (sorry on a conference call) was more aimed at the casual drive by reader who might try to hook up 10 extra speakers to his HTIB receiver than the regular AVS reader. It's all good.
If I hadn't written a too terse response in the first place, you wouldn't have had to...

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Old 07-25-2014, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor View Post
If I hadn't written a too terse response in the first place, you wouldn't have had to...
So just to be sure...


1- use 8-ohm speakers for all 9 speakers

2-I put my amp on 4-ohm

3-I plug the surround speaker pairs in parallel (I don't know the best way...swist them together ?)

4- I calibrate each channel to have same DB at sweet spot

is that it ?
thanks a lot for your help...your experience is of great value
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Old 07-25-2014, 09:07 AM
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaCentaurus View Post
Hi every body,

I want to build a 7.2 home theater in a 12x26 room, I want 2 rows of 3 seats...the second row on a 12" podium.

I read a lot on the subject but I also read different advices and visions.

Can I have a pair of sorrounds for each row for maximum effect ?
If yes, how to drive the second pair? With another amp just for them ?

Some say you can't have good sound with 2 pairs and you will always have better sound in the first row becuse the speaker pair will be between the rows.

Thanks a lot !
All your comments and ideas are welcome.

I wanted to do something like this

I love that software, what is it?

Also it's all in metric. I can't read it. Can it convert to American?
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Old 07-25-2014, 09:21 AM
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Ohms my Gosh!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaCentaurus View Post
So just to be sure...


1- use 8-ohm speakers for all 9 speakers

2-I put my amp on 4-ohm

3-I plug the surround speaker pairs in parallel (I don't know the best way...swist them together ?)

4- I calibrate each channel to have same DB at sweet spot

is that it ?
thanks a lot for your help...your experience is of great value
Alpha,

I hope these aren't all confusing responses to your question. I have to offer two bits of my advice:

1. Go bigger on the screen. You will regret not getting a bigger size once you have it. If you are worried about being too big don't. If it is within the dimensions of the standard equations then go as big as possible. (I look at the 45 degree angle sweet spot most of all)

2. Regarding ohms. I think you need to decide what specific equipment you are interested in before anyone can intelligently answer your questions about what impedance to feed each speaker. The good news is that what you want to do is completely doable, and you won't have to do much more than what the receiver will likely already support. But in order for us to intelligently answer your question, it will depend on the specific equipment involved.

Now I will go into the weeds for a moment:
Regarding impedance; speakers come in different impedances. It does not necessarily mean a speaker is better or worse than another, but as a general guideline, the lower impedance, the more efficient and clean sounding a speaker of home theater size will be, and also will need appropriate wattage to drive it. Regardless, the configuration of individual speakers will vary depending on the specific AVR and/or amplifiers in-use. Many mid-level audio receivers DO output 4 ohms, so it's not out of the question. AND it is also possible that some of your speakers will be rated to 4 ohms and others to 8 ohms. So you might end up with a mix of impedances you are dealing with. Some receivers can also handle this issue.

I hope this helps.
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Old 07-25-2014, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skipford View Post
Regarding impedance; speakers come in different impedances. It does not necessarily mean a speaker is better or worse than another, but as a general guideline, the lower impedance, the more efficient and clean sounding a speaker of home theater size will be
Based on what?

Quote:
Many mid-level audio receivers DO output 4 ohms, so it's not out of the question.
Can you name a couple mid-level receviers (say $500) that state within the manufactures specifications that they support 4-ohm speakers? It's certainly possible, but I'm not aware of any. That Pioneer above is the cheapest I've seen that states it supports 4-ohm speakers.

My X-4000 is only rated for 6-ohm. Can it play 4-ohm speakers. Yes it can, I hooked up my Triad LCRs and it definitely worked. At low volumes anyway. At higher volumes, it shut down and went into protect mode. I ended up getting an external amp to drive my speakers. Works better and sounds better.

You risk damaging your receiver when you try to drive too low an impedance level for an extended period of time. And this is the difference between can it be done and should it be done. Can you drive you Civic 130mph cross country, maybe, should you, not if you like your car.

Alpha - I think you got the right idea. Here is another post talking about the same thing
daisy chainging speakers

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Old 07-25-2014, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BllDo View Post
Based on what?



Can you name a couple mid-level receviers (say $500) that state within the manufactures specifications that they support 4-ohm speakers? It's certainly possible, but I'm not aware of any. That Pioneer above is the cheapest I've seen that states it supports 4-ohm speakers.

My X-4000 is only rated for 6-ohm. Can it play 4-ohm speakers. Yes it can, I hooked up my Triad LCRs and it definitely worked. At low volumes anyway. At higher volumes, it shut down and went into protect mode. I ended up getting an external amp to drive my speakers. Works better and sounds better.

You risk damaging your receiver when you try to drive too low an impedance level for an extended period of time. And this is the difference between can it be done and should it be done. Can you drive you Civic 130mph cross country, maybe, should you, not if you like your car.

Alpha - I think you got the right idea. Here is another post talking about the same thing
daisy chainging speakers

Regarding efficiency, the impedance does not mean it is more efficient across the board; but if the same speaker is built at two different impedances then the lower impedance produces more wattage at the same voltage, or another way of putting it would be that it takes less voltage to produce the same wattage of a lower impedance speaker.

Regarding affordability of a receiver that accommodates various impedance:

I own this receiver, and have 4 ohm and 8 ohm speakers (M&K THX Select2):

http://www.onkyousa.com/Products/mod...class=Receiver

I paid $800 for it about 7 years ago. Maybe longer. I still run this system today. Maybe that's not in the definition of affordable or mid-level, or whatever definition you are providing.
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Old 07-25-2014, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skipford View Post
Regarding efficiency, the impedance does not mean it is more efficient across the board; but if the same speaker is built at two different impedances then the lower impedance produces more wattage at the same voltage, or another way of putting it would be that it takes less voltage to produce the same wattage of a lower impedance speaker.
How does that translate to cleaner sounding?

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Old 07-25-2014, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BllDo View Post
How does that translate to cleaner sounding?
I guess I am implying that sometimes (and if you will re-read my original post I put some caviats in there) the speakers that are lower impedance will have higher quality components, resulting in my subjective term "cleaner".

I don't know if you are trolling or what. I am trying to help this guy out. If he doesn't like my advice he doesn't have to take it. I don't know what you are trying to get at. This is a home theater, not rocket science. I will use subjective terms all day long if I want to. Cleaner. It sounds better and less 'muddy'. Just trying to convey the sense that perhaps a more efficient speaker with certain qualities can produce a nice sound. Nothing more. Again, read my caviats in my original post. Let's just try to help this guy out and not get bogged down in "the weeds".
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Old 07-25-2014, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skipford View Post
I guess I am implying that sometimes (and if you will re-read my original post I put some caviats in there) the speakers that are lower impedance will have higher quality components, resulting in my subjective term "cleaner".
I don't believe there is any evidence to support that - lower impedance does mean "more efficient", but that does not equate to "higher quality" or "better sounding" or "cleaner sounding".

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipford View Post
Cleaner. It sounds better and less 'muddy'. Just trying to convey the sense that perhaps a more efficient speaker with certain qualities can produce a nice sound. Nothing more. Again, read my caviats in my original post. Let's just try to help this guy out and not get bogged down in "the weeds".
Cleaner / crisper are fine, subjective terms to use to describe a speaker, but any correlation between the sound qualities of a speaker and that design's impedance is coincidental.

Jeff

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Old 07-25-2014, 05:17 PM
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You room is like mine, just 5 feet longer. I would still set mine up the same, but leave the back row 4-5 feet off the wall. If you do the AT screen front of course that changes things.

Lowell


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Old 07-25-2014, 06:36 PM
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If your receiver has pre outs, connect one set of surround directly to the receiver (via the wire connectors) and use the pre outs connected (via rca jack) to a 2 channel amp to power the other set of speakers. That's what I did and it works fine.
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Old 07-25-2014, 07:58 PM
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I don't want to rain on anyone's parade - clearly Jeff is happy with his system running parallel (identical signal) side arrays - cool. But since no one had mentioned it... there are higher performance ways to do this. As Jeff said, make sure you run every speaker's cable all the way back to the rack so that you have some flexibility.

This is a fairly frequent topic, coming up a couple times every year. Here's a link to a conversation from early last year. It got pretty technical. When are multiple side surrounds necessary?
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Old 07-26-2014, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skipford View Post
I love that software, what is it?

Also it's all in metric. I can't read it. Can it convert to American?
I didn't made this picture/plan but only the 3d render with Google Sketchup
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Old 07-26-2014, 07:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ragged View Post
If your receiver has pre outs, connect one set of surround directly to the receiver (via the wire connectors) and use the pre outs connected (via rca jack) to a 2 channel amp to power the other set of speakers. That's what I did and it works fine.
I tought about that too...good idea to use a simple 2-channel amp for the second pair...they are not expensive so this is a plus
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Old 07-26-2014, 07:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post
I don't want to rain on anyone's parade - clearly Jeff is happy with his system running parallel (identical signal) side arrays - cool. But since no one had mentioned it... there are higher performance ways to do this. As Jeff said, make sure you run every speaker's cable all the way back to the rack so that you have some flexibility.

This is a fairly frequent topic, coming up a couple times every year. Here's a link to a conversation from early last year. It got pretty technical. When are multiple side surrounds necessary?
Thanks a lot for these threads
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