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post #1 of 16 Old 07-24-2014, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Question Bigger Screen or Bigger Speaker for dedicated HT

Finished the construction for dedicated HT. For the wall planned for screen, Could not go wider than 10ft. due to existing structural design. Now has to choose between

1) 110” screen (16:9) diagonal with floor standing speaker. B&W CM9 or similar ones (~3k for pair)
Or
2) 133” screen with in wall speakers there are B&W and ML comes around the same price.

Which will have better impact for Movie/TV viewing, wondering if the In-Wall speaker come close to performance as standalone floor standing speaker. Not really restricted on size on Center, Surrounds and Sub.

If you have used/heard in-wall speakers pls. suggest how it compares the floor standing ones. Or if you have seen 133" / 110" would you sacrifice some sound quality for bigger screen.
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post #2 of 16 Old 07-24-2014, 12:58 PM
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The bigger screen will WOW more people.

If for movies / TV only go bigger screen

If for movies / TV and a lot of music listening, go bigger speakers


Plus LCD TV's are going to be at 100" soon enough, you want to be ahead of the curve.

* Think of doing 3 identical in wall speakers and an acoustically transparent screen like Seymour AV.

Or make the space behind the screen wall deep enough to get floor standers and still do an acoustically transparent screen.


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Last edited by SOWK; 07-24-2014 at 01:03 PM.
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post #3 of 16 Old 07-24-2014, 01:10 PM
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IMO;
133" AT screen, put these 3 behind it, $239.00 each + the .67 cu ft flat pack box price of $26 each , http://www.diysoundgroup.com/home-th...8-mtm-kit.html




Quote:
Model Fusion - 8 Alchemy MTM Designer's Name Jeff Bagby Woofer 8" Eminence (dual) Tweeter Denovo DNA-205 in an EOS-8 waveguide Sensitivity 98.5dB - 2.83V/1m Nominal Impedance 6 Ohm Frequency Response 65hz - 20khz Crossover Point 2500hz Recommended Power 10 - 300 watts Enclosure Type Ported Overall Dimension 10" x 28" x 12" deep
NOTE March 15, 2014: The price of the Beta-8 woofer has gone up $5 each. The current price reflects the $10 increase.

This speaker can be used horizontally for a center channel, or used vertically for your main speakers. The extra price over the standard Fusion-8 Alchemy is basically the additional cost of the second woofer, 2 more ports, and added shipping weight. The photo shows a matte finished EOS-8. I was painting them when the kit first came out, but some people wanted gloss, others wanted matte. So I stopped painting them for now and only have gloss. You can paint them very easy with any matte spray paint.

This easy to assemble kit also includes the front speaker baffle. It's CNC cut so the woofers and EOS-8 waveguide are recessed to the correct depth and it also gives you a much cleaner appearance.

Mike R,P.E. clickable DIY hot links:

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post #4 of 16 Old 07-24-2014, 02:18 PM
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Get the CM9s and put them behind the AT screen. I'm on HT #3 and each time I keep wanting a bigger screen. If you can't afford both, get the screen now and lower end speakers off of craigslist. Speakers are easier to swap out than a screen (in my mind) and with the right AVR, you'll get pretty good bang for the buck from lower end speakers to start.

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post #5 of 16 Old 07-24-2014, 04:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
IMO;
133" AT screen, put these 3 behind it, $239.00 each + the .67 cu ft flat pack box price of $26 each , http://www.diysoundgroup.com/home-th...8-mtm-kit.html


Can this be used for in-wall, the boxes shown or much deeper than a typical 2x4 walls.
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post #6 of 16 Old 07-24-2014, 04:26 PM
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It depends on many factors...

I've got a 110" diagonal 16:9 and sit about 7 feet away in a dedicated home theater room. The screen is at the limit of what I would consider for size at that distance and previously I owned another house with a 123" diagonal screen and sat about 8 feet away on raised seating. Anyway, you get the picture

Speakers are very important to HT as well. I have used Martin Logan Ascent, Vista and Ethos along with theater i or motif center. The larger the center speaker the better for dialog clarity/definition and the left and right speakers are equally important for movie watching. I'm currently debating upgrading from 7.2 to 11.2 Atmos, so you might want to prepare or at least wire the height speakers in the front and back of the room now if not install quality height speakers (love the Martin Logan Helios 100, but it's been replaced).

Screen material is also crucial depending on whether you want a uniform bright picture or lowest black levels, always a tradeoff. I haven't tried AT screens since I've got such large front speakers, but I'd also be concerned with how AT would affect the acoustics as well as the screen clarity at my viewing distance and if I upgraded to ultra-HD.

Good luck!
Paul
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post #7 of 16 Old 07-24-2014, 05:15 PM
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There is not nearly enough information in the opening post to make that determination. You have to look at room size and seating distance for starters. There are well-established THX and SMPTE guidelines for viewing angles as well as optimal luminance considerations (ft. lamberts) that are affected by the screen size, gain, type of material, AT vs. non-AT and the projector's output and throw distance, to name a few.

If you are not space-constrained for the length of the room, then having the speakers behind an acoustically transparent screen is your optimal route. Real speakers vs. in-walls, like MTBdudex suggests, will give much better performance than in-walls. The speakers he suggests takes it a step further by introducing a wave guide for the upper range which is what all commercial theater speakers and the highest-end residential speakers use to get full-frequency response at the main listening position well beyond the 12' or so max distance for any soft-dome tweeter speaker like the CM9.

So can you share a bit more information about your room size, seating distance, budget, goals, usage (x% movies, x% music, x% games, etc.) so the AVS Community can provide you a bit more feedback? The best systems are always the result of well though-out design.
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post #8 of 16 Old 07-25-2014, 03:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
There is not nearly enough information in the opening post to make that determination. You have to look at room size and seating distance for starters. There are well-established THX and SMPTE guidelines for viewing angles as well as optimal luminance considerations (ft. lamberts) that are affected by the screen size, gain, type of material, AT vs. non-AT and the projector's output and throw distance, to name a few.

If you are not space-constrained for the length of the room, then having the speakers behind an acoustically transparent screen is your optimal route. Real speakers vs. in-walls, like MTBdudex suggests, will give much better performance than in-walls. The speakers he suggests takes it a step further by introducing a wave guide for the upper range which is what all commercial theater speakers and the highest-end residential speakers use to get full-frequency response at the main listening position well beyond the 12' or so max distance for any soft-dome tweeter speaker like the CM9.

So can you share a bit more information about your room size, seating distance, budget, goals, usage (x% movies, x% music, x% games, etc.) so the AVS Community can provide you a bit more feedback? The best systems are always the result of well though-out design.
It will be used mostly for TV and movies. 80% 16:9 and 20% movies and hardly any music.

The room is 20ft long and nearly 10ft-12ft wide. I have only 10ft width in the place where I can put the screen. There is a pillar that prevented from expanding beyond 10ft. I can have the seats and screen swapped, but preferred to have seats in the wider section.

length 20'
/--------------|
-------------/ |
| S S |
| E E | 12'
|10' A A |
| T T |
|----Door----\ S S |
\--------------|

I can have screen as wide 10ft or 8ft, if I utilize the full 10ft for screen then has to go with in-wall speakers. If I go with 8ft wide screen ,planning to w with either Martin Logan ESL or Ethos or B&W CM9, also looking into Pioneer Elite Atmos.

I can move the seats to recommended position with both the screen sizes, so seating is not an issue. Since it is dedicated room just for movies have control the light. Planning to spend not more than 1k for screen.

I have some what of an idea on regular floor standing speakers, but have no clue on in-wall speakers, like to know if the in-wall speakers or of same quality as regular speakers.
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post #9 of 16 Old 07-25-2014, 03:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karthiu View Post
It will be used mostly for TV and movies. 80% 16:9 and 20% movies and hardly any music.

The room is 20ft long and nearly 10ft-12ft wide. I have only 10ft width in the place where I can put the screen. There is a pillar that prevented from expanding beyond 10ft. I can have the seats and screen swapped, but preferred to have seats in the wider section.

length 20'
/--------------|
-------------/ |
| S S |
| E E | 12'
|10' A A |
| T T |
|----Door----\ S S |
\--------------|

I can have screen as wide 10ft or 8ft, if I utilize the full 10ft for screen then has to go with in-wall speakers. If I go with 8ft wide screen ,planning to w with either Martin Logan ESL or Ethos or B&W CM9, also looking into Pioneer Elite Atmos.

I can move the seats to recommended position with both the screen sizes, so seating is not an issue. Since it is dedicated room just for movies have control the light. Planning to spend not more than 1k for screen.

I have some what of an idea on regular floor standing speakers, but have no clue on in-wall speakers, like to know if the in-wall speakers or of same quality as regular speakers.
Btw, how do I draw simple lines, my ascii drawing does not come up well in the actual message.
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post #10 of 16 Old 07-25-2014, 05:38 PM
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My vote is for the biggest screen.
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post #11 of 16 Old 07-26-2014, 05:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phony_engineer View Post
I've got a 110" diagonal 16:9 and sit about 7 feet away in a dedicated home theater room. The screen is at the limit of what I would consider for size at that distance and previously I owned another house with a 123" diagonal screen and sat about 8 feet away on raised seating. Anyway, you get the picture

Speakers are very important to HT as well. I have used Martin Logan Ascent, Vista and Ethos along with theater i or motif center. The larger the center speaker the better for dialog clarity/definition and the left and right speakers are equally important for movie watching. I'm currently debating upgrading from 7.2 to 11.2 Atmos, so you might want to prepare or at least wire the height speakers in the front and back of the room now if not install quality height speakers (love the Martin Logan Helios 100, but it's been replaced).

Screen material is also crucial depending on whether you want a uniform bright picture or lowest black levels, always a tradeoff. I haven't tried AT screens since I've got such large front speakers, but I'd also be concerned with how AT would affect the acoustics as well as the screen clarity at my viewing distance and if I upgraded to ultra-HD.

Good luck!
Paul
I never though of screen quality for AT. Does AT screen has lower quality compared to non AT ones. Looking for screen with deeper blacks.
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post #12 of 16 Old 07-27-2014, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karthiu View Post
I never though of screen quality for AT. Does AT screen has lower quality compared to non AT ones. Looking for screen with deeper blacks.
Here's an example of the acoustic effect- it's not huge but there is some roll off at high(er) frequencies. http://www.projectorcentral.com/Elit.....Acoustic.htm

Visually, slight light loss (10%), resolution limit given perforations in the material may be a long term factor for ultra-HD, and potentially fewer options wrt screen materials.

Black level is important, but the projector is the primary factor in that case. The 123" screen I had in my previous HT was a Vutec Silverstar (screen gain >3) paired with a JVC RS-1. A spectacular combination for brightness, contrast, and black level.

So what projector are you considering?

Regards,
Paul
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post #13 of 16 Old 07-28-2014, 01:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karthiu View Post
Finished the construction for dedicated HT. For the wall planned for screen, Could not go wider than 10ft. due to existing structural design. Now has to choose between

1) 110” screen (16:9) diagonal with floor standing speaker. B&W CM9 or similar ones (~3k for pair)
Or
2) 133” screen with in wall speakers there are B&W and ML comes around the same price.

Which will have better impact for Movie/TV viewing, wondering if the In-Wall speaker come close to performance as standalone floor standing speaker. Not really restricted on size on Center, Surrounds and Sub.

If you have used/heard in-wall speakers pls. suggest how it compares the floor standing ones. Or if you have seen 133" / 110" would you sacrifice some sound quality for bigger screen.
Hi Karthiu,

I made this video a while back on speaker size vs room size which I hope helps you:

You need to think in terms of the energy that you're putting into a box (your room) and how that is going to work.

Thanks
Dennis
Acoustic Engineer
AcousticFields.com
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post #14 of 16 Old 07-28-2014, 05:05 AM
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With stadium seating, you will have to raise the height of the speakers for best performance - even if you have tower speakers. It would be a mistake to keep the CM9s on the floor. Technically speaking, the 'acoustic center' of the speaker should be aligned at 5/8" the distance up the height of an acoustically transparent screen, regardless of speaker. You also need about 6" minimum between the front face of the speaker and the back of the screen regardless of which acoustically transparent screen you choose.

If you go with a non-AT screen and flush your speakers out to the far sides, it will be far more difficult to achieve the 'sweet spot' over multiple rows of seating with the left and right speakers towed in toward the listening position as much as they need to be, not to mention the boundary gain effects from having the speaker so incredibly close to the side walls. Further, the center channel will have to be placed artificially low underneath the screen, further affecting the theater's performance by a great margin.

Theater design is a series of tradeoffs, but it appears ALL the tradeoffs here, including a big sacrifice to the quality of the system performance, are being made here for the sake of the largest possible screen.
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post #15 of 16 Old 07-30-2014, 11:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phony_engineer View Post
Here's an example of the acoustic effect- it's not huge but there is some roll off at high(er) frequencies. http://www.projectorcentral.com/Elit.....Acoustic.htm

Visually, slight light loss (10%), resolution limit given perforations in the material may be a long term factor for ultra-HD, and potentially fewer options wrt screen materials.

Black level is important, but the projector is the primary factor in that case. The 123" screen I had in my previous HT was a Vutec Silverstar (screen gain >3) paired with a JVC RS-1. A spectacular combination for brightness, contrast, and black level.

So what projector are you considering?

Regards,
Paul
Debating between 3 projector. Sony HW40ES, Panasonic PT-AE8000U or or X35W from JVC. Trying to check out if JVC is worth the extra 1K, when I can control the lighting.
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post #16 of 16 Old 07-30-2014, 12:52 PM
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The JVC will have the best blacks and I think the Panasonic will be the brightest but I am not too sure about that Sony model.

I would get the projector first and blast the image size on the wall to see what you are comfortable with and how big you like your image. Then order the screen. This is the advice I always give people because that is what answered my questions when I first started out. I don't think the size of the LCR's will have a huge impact for movies unless you wanted to run them full range for some reason. You can get very efficient speakers with a good sub(s) and be fine until you want to upgrade.

I have had both non AT and AT screens and there is not any difference that I could tell as far as brightness goes. Right now, I have Seymour center stage XD AT screen and love it.


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