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post #31 of 67 Old 08-02-2014, 10:00 AM
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If you plant seating on a wall boundary, then you will have boomy bass. Three feet off the back wall is commonly used.
You don't want to seating right on top of a surround speaker, or how do you set that channel's volume level so the furthest seat
can hear it, while the that channel isn't jumping out of the surround mix, at the closest seat.


Your seats pushed into the rear alcove, are likely suffering some audio issues.


For Seymour's XD AT screen material, I am fine at 10'. At 9' , I see weave on an XD screen. Another question that needs to be asked regarding
screen size (and AT) is whether your projector can adequately light a 1.0 gain screen?

Bass will be passing through those glass panes of the french doors, like they don't even exist. The gaskets will help with higher
frequencies and prevent the doors from rattling.

You might want to go into your settings and set yourself up for being sent an email to inform you of personal messages.

One thing to watch with a woven AT screen (assuming you go that route) is the weave throws light off the screen in an uncontrolled fashion.
You don't want the light coming off the screen to be reflected back onto the screen, blowing out contrast. Those microwreckers are very close
to the screen... but I like where you aiming. Highly dynamic audio systems in a small room are pretty awesome.
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post #32 of 67 Old 08-04-2014, 05:32 PM
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Still playing around with MississippiMan's entry idea, which I rather like.


A second double set of french doors could keep the room very open and you could do dark finished in the theater, but
create WOW factor with zoned lighting. The entry could be treated as a mini lobby with double sided movie poster
marquee(s) and get a high gloss tile marble floor to bring some old school theater charm.


Could those microwreckers fire through fabric walls and occupy the lower cavities of the two closets? Zero footprint.
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post #33 of 67 Old 08-04-2014, 05:49 PM
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You could finish off that av rack inexpensively, a la Stormtrooper1015's hard board panels.
You might want to drill a few holes in the side of the PS3's shelf too. That solid side isn't ideal
with the PS3's side venting.


"Project Internet" Theater Build - Color and decorative panel input appreciated.
post 62. Alternative finishes for the hardboard faceplates could be a piano finish or a rattle can hammered paint.
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post #34 of 67 Old 08-04-2014, 07:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedd View Post
Still playing around with MississippiMan's entry idea, which I rather like.


A second double set of french doors could keep the room very open and you could do dark finished in the theater, but
create WOW factor with zoned lighting. The entry could be treated as a mini lobby with double sided movie poster
marquee(s) and get a high gloss tile marble floor to bring some old school theater charm.


Could those microwreckers fire through fabric walls and occupy the lower cavities of the two closets? Zero footprint.
One closet could be done but not the one with the rack and chase for HVAC; just not enough room.


Right now I have in the design the two subwoofers laying on their sides below the screen, and will make a contemporary wood top with screen face:


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post #35 of 67 Old 08-05-2014, 04:42 AM
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That wood top is a near boundary surface and will light up, from light coming off the screen. What you should
be aiming for, is an image floating in front of a "black hole" when the lights go down. Another negative is your speakers
now have a near boundary reflective surface too. The first reflection of the front speakers, will be just a wee bit late of the
direct radiating sound arriving at your ears.


Does the microwrecker need to be laid flat? Could it be stood up? Your rack doesn't have a lot of gear,
is it possible to raise it higher? I like your pursuit of more (and more dynamic) bass, but those microwreckers
up front, are costing you performance from your front three channels.
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post #36 of 67 Old 08-05-2014, 05:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedd View Post
That wood top is a near boundary surface and will light up, from light coming off the screen. What you should
be aiming for, is an image floating in front of a "black hole" when the lights go down. Another negative is your speakers
now have a near boundary reflective surface too. The first reflection of the front speakers, will be just a wee bit late of the
direct radiating sound arriving at your ears.


Does the microwrecker need to be laid flat? Could it be stood up? Your rack doesn't have a lot of gear,
is it possible to raise it higher? I like your pursuit of more (and more dynamic) bass, but those microwreckers
up front, are costing you performance from your front three channels.
Yeah I agree.

I can only come up with this configuration given the room constraints so far.

I can stand up the microwrecker yes, but they protrude 30" deep so either way the things are coming out past the point of that existing wall bump-out.

So I don't know if that will help for them to be vertical.

Regarding the LCR config, if I put some sort of sound absorption or diffussion material on the side surface of the wall bump out do you think it would help a little? And move the L and R a little closer to center of screen to get them away from edges?

Regarding bench top (wood top on woofers) I agree. But I was worried about covering it in upholstery because I didn't want people stepping or sitting on it. Would you go with carpet instead for covering the top? Whatever the case it would need to be tough.
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post #37 of 67 Old 08-05-2014, 02:53 PM
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Is the microwrecker the right sub for your room then? If you are open to building boxes that complex, then
maybe there's other DIY designs that can offer the performance and the ability to be hidden. There's no reason a
sub cabinet has to be a cube either, when you build. A couple of tower style subs, laid on their sides up front could
be hidden behind an AT wall.


The answer for the top, might be as simple as black velvet runner on the wood top. Does nothing for near boundary
but it would cut down on light reflecting off the wood top.


Treating first reflection points is highly desirable. But you don't want to absorb too much of the highs and suck the life out of the
room.

When working with a smaller room, there's going to be some compromises. That's why everyone keeps eying those closets and wondering
if they are expendable? And the location of the entry doors, combined with those closets creates a chock point, hence people wanting to rotate
the orientation of the room.
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post #38 of 67 Old 08-05-2014, 03:25 PM
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Skipford....so are you set on having the screen on the North wall at this point?
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post #39 of 67 Old 08-06-2014, 06:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedd View Post
When working with a smaller room, there's going to be some compromises. That's why everyone keeps eying those closets and wondering
if they are expendable? And the location of the entry doors, combined with those closets creates a chock point, hence people wanting to rotate
the orientation of the room.
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Skipford....so are you set on having the screen on the North wall at this point?
Guys I really am glad I made this thread. I think the two of you are really helping me see the light.

Ultimately I know in my heart that turning the room 90 degrees I would hate. So to ya'lls point of the room shape being too small, I think I am getting to the realization that the closets have to go, and the equipment be put opposite the back closet wall in a new space in the playroom outside the theater.

I am contemplating putting the subs on the ground (horizontal) along the back (south) wall and having the screen along the front (north) wall. The back row seating will be in front of the subwoofers.

OR

Put the subs along the north wall along with the LCRs and make it a screen wall in front of the whole thing (approx. 30" into the room).

The thing that confuses me is the soffit ceiling that will occur along the back 5th of the room. How will sound work with this?
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post #40 of 67 Old 08-06-2014, 05:35 PM
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You aren't getting off that easy.... How about giving us hard core reasons why rotating the room would be something you hate?

I see the room rotated as giving you the needed depth for an AT screen, and to hide the intrusion up front. The time and energy you spend
removing the closets, I would spend building soffits in the room. These soffits would beef up the lighting with the addition of spot lights,
and hold conduit for getting your wiring around the room. The fabric walls could hide armoured conduit to bring those east wall sconces
to the sides of the rotated room. Stick those lights on a Lutron 3103 or 3104 and you can create a lot of drama, and you have the ability to
take the room from well lit, to cave.
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post #41 of 67 Old 08-06-2014, 05:39 PM
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another rotated theme.
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post #42 of 67 Old 08-06-2014, 06:06 PM
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Excellent drawing, Tedd. This was the setup I was describing earlier in one of my first posts.

I am a purist, so I'd still recommend that the french doors had to go (or changed to a single soundproof solid door with seals) for sound isolation and light control, but I'd acquiesce on this part of the design if they must be kept (i.e. the wife).

I also would not put the subs in the small closets. Given the room's orientation in the drawing, I'd put both subs in the front baffle wall area behind the screen at approximately the thirds of the room width as a first option. Second option would be to put one sub in the front right (behind the screen, in the corner, to the right of the right channel speaker and one in the very back left of the room. Boundary gain from both subs should give you +6db or greater of 'free' output and have better in-room response. You also don't sacrifice soundproofing by putting a sub in a closet with a door on the other side and another sub by an HVAC chase where the LFE can travel easily to other parts of the house.

With your current lighting plan he's also have to bump up to the full 6 zone Grafik Eye is there is going to be any type of upward cove lighting. Gives one more optional zone to do something, like put the lighted marquee on the extra zone.
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post #43 of 67 Old 08-06-2014, 07:20 PM - Thread Starter
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What I am proposing is this as the new canvas. I don't want to rotate 90 degrees because of all the symmetry in the wiring and the ceiling design.

With this as your canvas I ask you to paint the components:



Make sure to do it Bob Ross style please. He was always so happy.
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post #44 of 67 Old 08-06-2014, 07:26 PM
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I think one could get by with four zones. You need at least 40 watts on a zone, so I'd be tempted
to give careful thought to getting the most out of the least zones and head off to Ebay. Since a baffle
wall would be where I'd want to spend budget.


As for the closet (in a cheaper room), I'd divide the closet and use multiple layers of drywall with GG. The door wouldn't factor in.
You can do "ok" here, and the glass doors are going to be the weak spot anyways. The HVAC chase area would also get beefed up.


Now if there's two seats, there is one way to get "sound proofed" and high end sound. A Realiser A8 and headphones.


A second story room is near impossible to sound proof (without a very large budget).
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post #45 of 67 Old 08-06-2014, 07:50 PM
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HEHEHEHE! "YOUR" WIFE IS GOING TO LOVE YOU!


I'm a big fan of symmetry. A rotated room could be symmetrical. I am not a fan of those sections of angled ceiling.
Is a stepped soffit an option?

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post #46 of 67 Old 08-06-2014, 08:00 PM
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Familiar looking ceiling?


College Park's 4K Cinema v1.0


and Spaceman's room, with another look.


Spaceman Theater build
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post #47 of 67 Old 08-06-2014, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedd View Post
I think one could get by with four zones. You need at least 40 watts on a zone, so I'd be tempted
to give careful thought to getting the most out of the least zones and head off to Ebay. Since a baffle
wall would be where I'd want to spend budget.
25 watts per zone is watt the Grafik Eye requires. I'm not saying staying in 4 zones couldn't be done by combining zones (the single rack light with the seating lighting, for example), but for the extra $100 for the 6 zone on the bay and needing some sort of soffit lighting on its own zone, you're beyond the four zones you proposed at that point.


Quote:
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As for the closet (in a cheaper room), I'd divide the closet and use multiple layers of drywall with GG. The door wouldn't factor in.
You can do "ok" here, and the glass doors are going to be the weak spot anyways. The HVAC chase area would also get beefed up.
Yes, it can be done, but didn't know if Skipford was wanting to make the necessary construction revisions, especially since the subs could easily be in the room at somewhat ideal locations. Like you note above, $$$ spent on baffle wall and the room vs. modifying a different location to accommodate the sub when inside the room would be just fine.

@skipford - I don't think there's really much to add to your latest drawing since you want the screen on the North wall, you know where everything will go. I would still use only a single row of seating vs. the two tiered you were previously proposing, and I would put LCR and all subs in a front baffle wall that spans the width of the room.

There are Martycubes and a host of other DIY sub options at your disposal. I went with the DIYSoundGroup's largest sub flat pack (4 cubic feet), which is 21" in depth, which isn't too bad. You could explore getting a pair of the new Dayton Audio UM18-22 from Parts Express is getting some rave reviews. Box depth should be about 18-20", FYI.
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post #48 of 67 Old 08-07-2014, 06:01 AM
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At this point, there's no real measure of how far skipford is willing to go, remodel-wise. Nor a budget.
I usually ask via pm, to try to try to narrow down suggestions.


I was going to stick the entry lights on the rear spots / av rack zone. Forgot to change over the entry zone to 3.
I view this layout as minimal work / and a budget space, where one could work hard to cut costs, to create budget for a
baffle wall design. (No reason it couldn't work as an AT space and reuse the existing speakers, for now). It's not a sound
proof design, but getting a sound proofed, isolated room on a second floor, is major work and expense.


Now with that expanded space, with 6-8 seats and a second row, one needs to start thinking about beefing up the cooling and air
changes. 3000-4000+ BTUs of heating for bodies alone. (Or start scheduling intermissions. )


We need the room's height to the bottom of angled sections, and the room's overall height. The addition of a second row, means
you need to start thinking sightlines, riser, projector throw (and where it ends up), plus screen sizes and mounting height.


I couldn't find a 3106 for $100 more. I would have gone for it. I really wanted a fifth zone, but with my small footprint, it isn't even
an issue.


That marquee wouldn't be a double sided poster marquee. I'd re-task an older computer sitting around, and grab an inexpensive led hdtv.


The rotated room, visually could be symmetrical. Bring in tiered soffits and you could acoustically treat the underside. They
could also be used to hold conduit runs, beef up the lighting, and allow for some isolation for HVAC runs.
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post #49 of 67 Old 08-07-2014, 06:10 AM
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Agreed. Skipford - can you help us out on where your head's at from a construction budget / total budget standpoint? Really not much else to say without that information.
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post #50 of 67 Old 08-07-2014, 06:45 AM
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Well it has been a bit confusing from the very beginning, because the example that he showed that he wanted to follow could not really be accommodated if there were going to be severe limitations as far as the reconstruction of the room.

Many of the initial ideas put forth centered around a lower budget and almost no altering of the room's structure. My own suggestions furthered the idea of a room that would be wider across the screen area as well as allow for 2 rows of seats,

It would also be an easier room to allow for acoustical treatment. The latest floor plan above Is a good example of what might be accomplished if re-framing is allowed.

As someone who dispensers allot of DIY advice, I know how frustrating it can be to spend time giving lots of ideas but seeing things change back and forth and no consensus of opinion being developed. Worse still is if the design criteria also keeps changing. Of course that happens when you get input from several directions, and sometimes that's a good thing anyway.

In the end it is all about what the original Poster both wants to do and can accomplish. How much we can suggest and how long we can go on doing so depends on if we feel like we are really contributing toward getting something accomplished.

Usually it boils down to whomever sticks with the OP the longest.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

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post #51 of 67 Old 08-07-2014, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah that is all good input.

Regarding the angled vaulted ceiling why is it that the angles are not okay? Is the sound reflecting from there never ideal?

Regarding budget and parameters; I still want to spend very little money. In truth, I am a commercial general contractor and a domestic DIY guy when it comes to home renovations. So the concept of the wall construction and the like will always and forever be done by myself and I will never have a contractor perform any of that work. So for the perspective of cost, what will always drive my cost of the renovation will be new material. Demolishing those closets and patching back studs insulation drywall texture paint and carpet will not amount to that much money.

Reconfiguration of ceiling structure will venture into additional unwanted cost. If it is believed that the acoustics of such a room are not desirable with the vaulted ceiling configuration then it should be contemplated. I am not well versed in the "101s" of room volumes and shapes; so I appreciate the question. As to whether or not it will be done I think I will have to weigh the cost benefit of doing it.

Ultimately I want to make minor adjustments to the room to make it more impactful and more properly treated for light and sound during movie enjoyment time.
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post #52 of 67 Old 08-07-2014, 02:25 PM
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I can't help you at all with the internal acoustic analysis and the 'dos' and 'don'ts' for such an evaluation. The room has the largest impact on your final system sound, so that lends itself to something that should be hired out to understand the challenges and how to address them through acoustic treatments.

Tedd raised an excellent point that might have been missed - more seating means that you'll have to do something with the HVAC to make sure you have enough cooling in the room, especially since you are on the second floor and two of the walls are exterior.

If "as cheap as possible" is your goal with no real qualifier on how high up the food chain you'd like to go from an equipment perspective, I'd focus on a single row of four seats max, no riser and bean bags in front. That's your seating. Anything more from a capacity standpoint and you risk having a sweat box. Been there, done that, don't want to go back to it again.

And also to Tedd's point, you can extend the soffit the full perimeter of the room to not only provide symmetry, but a convenient place to run wiring and add the upward cove lighting you were looking at doing.
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post #53 of 67 Old 08-07-2014, 02:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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I can't help you at all with the internal acoustic analysis and the 'dos' and 'don'ts' for such an evaluation. The room has the largest impact on your final system sound, so that lends itself to something that should be hired out to understand the challenges and how to address them through acoustic treatments.



Tedd raised an excellent point that might have been missed - more seating means that you'll have to do something with the HVAC to make sure you have enough cooling in the room, especially since you are on the second floor and two of the walls are exterior.

This is a good point. The room was already conditioned in the original HVAC design, so for normal occupancy I think we are good. My home is over 4000 square feet and I have three HVAC units running over 12 tons to the house. One idea I have is to potentially divert the supply to a guest bedroom into the theater on a temporary basis whenever the theater is being used. I could rig up an automated damper with occupancy sensors or even just a manual switch. Good thinking!
Read above...
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post #54 of 67 Old 08-07-2014, 04:15 PM
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The angled ceiling isn't ideal regarding reflecting sound towards the seating. But they aren't all that large, so their effect is likely minimal.
You do miss an opportunity to treat first reflections and all the other advantages that soffits can bring, including being a nice design feature.
You also get to beef up the lighting, and zone it, while being able to take the room's finishes dark.


Soffits aren't very costly, when you do them yourself. Assuming of course, they aren't taking you from a job.


Room volume is nice to have. But that volume needn't always be in the form of people space.


Ideally, you also want adequate airflow at the HVAC vents, with very little noise. Soundtracks range from 22-23 db to something like 106 db.
Being able to hear the quietest passages of the sound track, while the loudest sections don't have you reaching for the volume button, is something
worth striving for.


I think the rotated room with a single row of four seats, could be a killer budget space. Speakers and electronic clutter is tucked away. Soffits add design bling
and earn their keep.


Minor impactful improvements to the room is exactly what the rotated room can give you.






Ever seen any of these builds? Smaller budget rooms with lots of style.


Mini Man Cave Phase 2 - Could use help planning!


HT of the Month: Theater for Hobbits


And a more media styled room, with AT screen:


The Pocoloco Theater
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post #55 of 67 Old 08-07-2014, 05:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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I think the rotated room with a single row of four seats, could be a killer budget space. Speakers and electronic clutter is tucked away. Soffits add design bling
and earn their keep.
Okay; not to sound overly dumb, but after I have proposed eliminating the closets to provide the longest room possible, why is it that you feel that turning the room 90 degrees is still preferable? This eludes me. It eliminates all the existing sconces and wiring and symmetry in the room and would be shallower than eliminating the closets. I have removed the double french doors as well in the last proposed shell space. So why is it you still feel turning the room is better? Not trying to sound whiny or complaining, just trying to understand truly the rationale. I appreciate it.
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post #56 of 67 Old 08-08-2014, 05:36 AM
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You are looking at the room's drywall as the room's walls. I see the drywall as the room's boundaries. Shrinking a room's footprint, is often done by
home theater designers.


I also don't see the room being rotated, eliminating the sconces. If you do fabric walls, there's no reason you can't run conduit or armoured cable
(on top of the drywall and) behind the fabric to relocate the sconces (rattle proofed). I would definitely keep the sconces, as they offer a third type of lighting.
All that lighting and mixed types, on individual zones, on a lighting controller, adds a lot of wow factor, to a home theater. And when the square footage is on the smaller
side of things, editing what is visible in the room, can help create a calmer, simpler space. Whatever the layout, the scones would be a feature. I would also move the
sconces away from the screen up front, if you eliminate the closets. I wouldn't want them lighting up, from light coming off the screen. I'd be after a image floating in space,
with zero visual distractions up front.


And that's where an AT screen comes in too. You can eliminate speaker clutter, and your speaker layout can be improved. The center channel can be raised.
(and with a second row, a center channel pushed down low, can impact on hearing dialog clearly.)


The mix of lighting will allow the room to have dark finishes. And those darker finishes can make a smaller space feel larger.

The seating doesn't end up on boundary walls. How do you propose to set volume levels for surround channels, when the surround speaker is on top
of a seat? So you either end up with surround speakers jumping out of the surround mix, or not being heard by seats further away. Moving the surrounds higher

My first instinct was by eliminating the closets, you gain room volume and needed depth. But it really doesn't work all that well, since the room is only 17.5' long. The second
row seating ends up on the back wall. A larger screen forces the speakers the center channel down low, and possibly the LR mains into the room's corners.

And we're talking a budget space. What you spend on seating, could be spent elsewhere. If four seats are all that is really needed, then I'd spend that budget elsewhere,
where I'd gain better performance.

The single row seating also keeps the front speakers close enough to play reference levels. The use of an AT screen can visually remove the corner's column from the room.
The AT screen and AT space makes for simpler future speaker upgrades too.

I like the 17.5' deep room as a single row too. But that means disruption of the area outside the theater, and project creep.

The location of the theater means you can't sound proof it. Kind of a game changer as to how much money I would pour into it. I'd leverage knowledge and build the best
budget space, with the best performance possible. That starts with knowing exactly how many bodies I need to seat.
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post #57 of 67 Old 08-08-2014, 05:47 AM
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A shallow baffle wall front, minimally framed acoustically transparent AT wall up front.
Not really a budget room because of the baffle wall....
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post #58 of 67 Old 08-08-2014, 06:26 AM
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The original suggestion to rotate the room and have the screen on the East wall and settling on a single room of seating is that it makes a small theater feel much, much larger and it resolves the issue of NOT having to preserve the room's limited width for aisleways. That's what makes your room feel cramped.

One other reason for the suggestion is because of the location of your supplies. From a theater design perspective, it's never ideal to have the supply dumping on or near the seating area. The supplies are normally located in front of the screen but with directed diffusion away from the screen with a 15 degree diffuser. I also do not see a return air duct for the room in your original pictures. That would be a huge benefit in terms of comfort by helping to mix the air and remove heat. If you rotated the room, I'd consider extending the duct in the southwest corner and putting it in the Northeast corner on the same plane as your second supply in the southeast corner. Make sense?

Since you are so handy with drywall and other construction, I would think it would be a no-brainer to carve out a 1' or 2' channel around the room to run new electrical and patch things up for not more that $20 in material.

The only disagreement I have to Tedd's comment above is that you can put the sconces wherever you want. When the movie is playing the sconces will be off and not affecting your picture quality. If you want room light while the system is on, most can come from upward firing rope lighting (if you install it) or recessed down lighting on a low burn. But technically speaking, if you want a real floating image, all of the lights have to be completely off and all light infiltration squelched.
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post #59 of 67 Old 08-08-2014, 07:02 AM
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The sconces should be off when a movie is playing, but you need to consider how close they are to the screen, and how light is coming off
whatever type of screen you go with. If that screen is a woven AT screen and fairly large, then those sconces end up pretty close to a screen that
throws light off, in an uncontrolled fashion. The glass of the sconce might very well end up with a slight glow from being backlit.


And if the light hitting the glass of the sconce reflects back onto the screen, that's not good either.

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post #60 of 67 Old 08-08-2014, 09:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedd View Post
A shallow baffle wall front, minimally framed acoustically transparent AT wall up front.
Not really a budget room because of the baffle wall....
Tedd,

In this proposed configuration, when we have space off of the back wall, how do you normally aim the rear channels? In the ideal are the ceiling speakers that fire down or are they just above head height firing back toward the screen?

Thanks for sticking with me guys. It's a lot to contemplate for someone as ignorant as me in this arena.
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