The Bacchus Palace build thread – Erskine Group designed and constructed - Page 3 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 6Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #61 of 84 Old 08-27-2014, 11:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
audiovideoholic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Murray KY
Posts: 2,660
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 200 Post(s)
Liked: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by dormie1360 View Post
I have a sample on the way. Easiest way to find out what your particular eyesight distance will be.
I know it may seem counterintuitive but test with bright scenes with sky/white backgrounds. They seem to show the perfs more than any other backgrounds.
audiovideoholic is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #62 of 84 Old 08-28-2014, 09:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Reddig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Hays, KS
Posts: 1,674
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Liked: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post
I know it may seem counterintuitive but test with bright scenes with sky/white backgrounds. They seem to show the perfs more than any other backgrounds.
+1 bright scenes indeed do show more.

Great build!! Love Erskine designed rooms and real excited to watch this progress. Definitly subscribed.

JBL Pro Cinema
Reddig is offline  
post #63 of 84 Old 08-29-2014, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Tnedator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 671
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 131 Post(s)
Liked: 34
So, the question is whether it's better to have a dimmer picture with a weave or brighter picture with a Stewart Microperf and possibly see the perf at times.
Tnedator is offline  
post #64 of 84 Old 08-30-2014, 07:18 AM
Advanced Member
 
Jeff in Canada's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 563
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Liked: 43
Very nice. It looks like it will be a beautiful room. I went with stained wood as well and you can look at my build as the side wall look will be similar.

I really like your description of your experience with Dennis.

Equipment: Denon AVR-4520, Fusion Tempest (LCR), Fusion Alchemy (4xSurrounds+Wides+Heights),15" Dayton Ultimax X 4, SMX 2.35:1 Screen
Theater Build
DIY Speaker / Sub Build
Jeff in Canada is online now  
post #65 of 84 Old 08-30-2014, 08:24 AM
AVS Special Member
 
audiovideoholic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Murray KY
Posts: 2,660
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 200 Post(s)
Liked: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnedator View Post
So, the question is whether it's better to have a dimmer picture with a weave or brighter picture with a Stewart Microperf and possibly see the perf at times.

Kinda lol. Just get samples of the two, 4k and Stewart, and test for yourself. If the extra brightness isn't needed from the Stewart AND you don't see the perfs you still may want to go with the 4k for a few reasons- eg. closer to reference white screen of 4k, smoother texture of 4k, price of the 4k. 3D viewing could also play a role in the decision process. Most negative gain screens are going to suffer greatly with any "large" screen but even cinemas don't have more than aprox 5-7 foot lamberts with 3D. Many of us just accept the perfs visibility from some seating positions since having gain is required for "our own" needs. I wouldn't trade my perf screen for a non gain screen even though I purchased with the thought of them only being visible from 11' and closer.

I don't know which has better audio properties but thought it was the Stewart perfs; although, someone posted the opposite above which I asked about... waiting for response before searching. Both should provide excellent audio in the end that EQ can and will take care of most likely.

Something that I haven't brought up about the Stewart is my experience with the frame. It didn't go together without some drilling on my part. They are known for their high standards in quality control so think mine was just one of the very few that had manufacturing issues. Two of the holes were off by like 3/16" that the bolts mated to and had to widen the holes. It wasn't major at all but did make assembly very frustrating since I had to take it apart twice just to double check that their sticker labeling was correct before making the ultimate decision that it was indeed a flaw. It will never be an issue again and in the grand scheme of things it was very minor compared to all the other aspects of building a HT.
audiovideoholic is offline  
post #66 of 84 Old 08-30-2014, 10:55 AM
Senior Member
 
dormie1360's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 467
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnedator View Post
So, the question is whether it's better to have a dimmer picture with a weave or brighter picture with a Stewart Microperf and possibly see the perf at times.
LOL. Give Shawn a call and ask him about weave vs. microperf. Plan on about a 20 minute answer.

Seriously, he has a lot of good information which may help you in making your decision.
Reddig likes this.

Regards,
John
dormie1360 is offline  
post #67 of 84 Old 08-30-2014, 12:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Reddig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Hays, KS
Posts: 1,674
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Liked: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by dormie1360 View Post
LOL. Give Shawn a call and ask him about weave vs. microperf. Plan on about a 20 minute answer.

Seriously, he has a lot of good information which may help you in making your decision.
Shawn is a great guy. I believe he is pro micro perf if I remeber right. He calibrated my Pioneer Kuro plasma living room tv a few years back and was such a cool and knowledgable dude. Once I replace my BenQ W7000 with a pj with better blacks I'll be calling him up for a proper calibration. I just used the DVE HD Basics BD to get my current pj looking better.

JBL Pro Cinema

Last edited by Reddig; 08-30-2014 at 12:37 PM.
Reddig is offline  
post #68 of 84 Old 08-30-2014, 04:26 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Tnedator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 671
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 131 Post(s)
Liked: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by dormie1360 View Post
LOL. Give Shawn a call and ask him about weave vs. microperf. Plan on about a 20 minute answer.

Seriously, he has a lot of good information which may help you in making your decision.
I've talked to Dennis and he's not a fan of weaves. I'm guessing Shawn (who I haven't talked to) would be of a similar mind. Basically, if I go away from the Stewart micro-perf I'm on my own.
Tnedator is offline  
post #69 of 84 Old 08-30-2014, 08:05 PM
Advanced Member
 
Jeff in Canada's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 563
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Liked: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnedator View Post
I've talked to Dennis and he's not a fan of weaves. I'm guessing Shawn (who I haven't talked to) would be of a similar mind. Basically, if I go away from the Stewart micro-perf I'm on my own.
I have an SMX weave and it is very good. I've seen the Falcon material as well as Seymour screens and I think you would not be disappointed if you selected those. I've also seen Stewart screens, Da-Lite and Elite.

Dennis may have a really good reason for his preference. Perhaps it is a Gain issue and he doesn't feel that any of the weaves provide enough light or perhaps he may feel the weave doesn't provide the image quality of the perf. Did they say why?

Equipment: Denon AVR-4520, Fusion Tempest (LCR), Fusion Alchemy (4xSurrounds+Wides+Heights),15" Dayton Ultimax X 4, SMX 2.35:1 Screen
Theater Build
DIY Speaker / Sub Build
Jeff in Canada is online now  
post #70 of 84 Old 08-30-2014, 09:05 PM
AVS Special Member
 
audiovideoholic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Murray KY
Posts: 2,660
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 200 Post(s)
Liked: 95
Dennis and Shawn both prefer perf based on the sciences behind them. They are far superior when speaking technical info. There's not a single cinema that uses woven material for a reason. But everyone is entitled to their own preference. A close seating distance from the perf is probably the only way Dennis would use a weave would be my guess. Shawn has posted a white paper about the properties in which the weave is inferior based on the design in general. It's all over my head but the basic concept is understandable.
audiovideoholic is offline  
post #71 of 84 Old 08-31-2014, 11:23 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Tnedator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 671
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 131 Post(s)
Liked: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post
Dennis and Shawn both prefer perf based on the sciences behind them. They are far superior when speaking technical info. There's not a single cinema that uses woven material for a reason. But everyone is entitled to their own preference. A close seating distance from the perf is probably the only way Dennis would use a weave would be my guess. Shawn has posted a white paper about the properties in which the weave is inferior based on the design in general. It's all over my head but the basic concept is understandable.
It's been quite a while since I talked to Dennis about Stewart vs. some other screens, like the weaves and I don't remember everything, but I do believe he said that one major differences is that none of the weaves have the optical coatings that allows for not only accurate image display, but also allows you to get gain (like the Studiotek 130) while rejecting ambient light.

I will say that of all the things we talked about to help my budget (using the AVR alone vs. amps + QSCs, going to Klipsch vs Procellas, eliminating the step down transformer, starting out with a cheap projector, like an Epson 6030, etc.) the thing I would say I got the strongest reaction to was going away from the Studiotek 130 screen. All the other things we talked about and talked about them being reasonable alternatives to cut equipment costs (since I was blowing my budget and then some on the room), but when it came to the screen he was VERY strong that the Stewart was the only way to go.

Considering the fact that when I talked to a JVC engineer they talked about using the Stewart 130 and have read about many demo rooms setup at Cedia and elsewhere that use it, I don't think there is any question that the Studiotek 130 must have a very good reputation in the AV community.
Tnedator is offline  
post #72 of 84 Old 08-31-2014, 04:16 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Tnedator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 671
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 131 Post(s)
Liked: 34
I was out at my new house today doing a few things, and decided to check where things actually wound up for my viewing distance (kind of hard to get exact from the drawings). From the front of the screen wall to the bull nose on the riser is 13'.

I know the screen will recess about 1.5 - 2" from the front of the screen wall. Not sure how close my head will be to the bull nose, but based on those measurements, I'm thinking when slightly reclined as I'm likely to watch all movies, I would be about 13' from the screen, give or take 6". I'm going with Palliser Elites and from what I remember, if I have the base close to the front edge of the riser, the back would recline over the edge of the riser (but I'm not 100% sure of that), so I think I'll be close to 13' viewing distance.
Tnedator is offline  
post #73 of 84 Old 09-02-2014, 10:45 AM
Senior Member
 
dormie1360's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 467
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 16
What are you planning for controlling your theater?

Regards,
John
dormie1360 is offline  
post #74 of 84 Old 09-02-2014, 12:36 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Tnedator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 671
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 131 Post(s)
Liked: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by dormie1360 View Post
What are you planning for controlling your theater?
One of my billion dollar questions (ok, more like a 10,000 dollar question).

I'm doing an Elan/Lutron system in the rest of the house. So, I will either use that to control the theater (which would mean using the local integrator) or will have a small Crestron system controlling the HT room (done by Erskine Group).
Tnedator is offline  
post #75 of 84 Old 09-02-2014, 12:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
TMcG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Earth
Posts: 2,772
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 316 Post(s)
Liked: 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnedator View Post
One of my billion dollar questions (ok, more like a 10,000 dollar question).

I'm doing an Elan/Lutron system in the rest of the house. So, I will either use that to control the theater (which would mean using the local integrator) or will have a small Crestron system controlling the HT room (done by Erskine Group).
I am not as familiar with Elan as I once was, so I can't give specific comment on that. However, Lutron is not a good option for running anything but the lighting and a few simple contact closures.

I've had full-blown AMX and most recently Crestron systems and I can make an easy endorsement for Crestron. However, some of the software licenses for their 'app' to use on other devices, like the iPad, smart phones, etc. was the deal breaker for me unless they recently changed their business model / licensing agreements. Savant automation is native Apple and carries no license fees for the devices. They recently launched a Linux-based system for $499 and have a Wi-Fi enabled remote for bi-directional communication for another $500. I think this is the key because you don't have to channel surf using a tablet or other display screen since the remote gives you all the hard buttons you would need. I'll pull up the link later. But $999 for a top-notch single room automation that is infinitely expandable is tough to beat and will outperform Crestron in function and price.
TMcG is offline  
post #76 of 84 Old 09-02-2014, 12:48 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Tnedator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 671
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 131 Post(s)
Liked: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
I am not as familiar with Elan as I once was, so I can't give specific comment on that. However, Lutron is not a good option for running anything but the lighting and a few simple contact closures.

I've had full-blown AMX and most recently Crestron systems and I can make an easy endorsement for Crestron. However, some of the software licenses for their 'app' to use on other devices, like the iPad, smart phones, etc. was the deal breaker for me unless they recently changed their business model / licensing agreements. Savant automation is native Apple and carries no license fees for the devices. They recently launched a Linux-based system for $499 and have a Wi-Fi enabled remote for bi-directional communication for another $500. I think this is the key because you don't have to channel surf using a tablet or other display screen since the remote gives you all the hard buttons you would need. I'll pull up the link later. But $999 for a top-notch single room automation that is infinitely expandable is tough to beat and will outperform Crestron in function and price.
For the rest of the house, Lutron will be lights only (what they do well) and Elan is the overall system controller, controlling the Lutron lights. If I use them in the HT, then Lutron would control the lights and I could use either Lutron wall keypads or an Elan remote to control the lights, and then Elan would be what would control the projector, screen, etc. However, in terms of the user experience, the Elan remote would have lighting scenes, etc. all included.
Tnedator is offline  
post #77 of 84 Old 09-02-2014, 01:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
TMcG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Earth
Posts: 2,772
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 316 Post(s)
Liked: 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnedator View Post
For the rest of the house, Lutron will be lights only (what they do well) and Elan is the overall system controller, controlling the Lutron lights. If I use them in the HT, then Lutron would control the lights and I could use either Lutron wall keypads or an Elan remote to control the lights, and then Elan would be what would control the projector, screen, etc. However, in terms of the user experience, the Elan remote would have lighting scenes, etc. all included.
Sorry, but your original post was confusing. It sounded like you had not yet made the decision between either Elan or Crestron yet as far as the automation system was concerned. Lutron has some limited control (with IR relays, etc.) that can be done via their Homeworks automation, but like you said....Lutron can do lights and nothing else.

If you are planning on Elan....then just go with Elan for the theater control as well. I just quickly reviewed their website and they have the right products to make things easy. Dennis always specs a Crestron branded thermostat to completely control the HVAC system for the theater and integrate advanced programming such as "if the projector is on, turn the HVAC fan to "ON"', which is perfect. But if that Crestron thermostat does not have an open API to allow the Elan system to talk to it, then I'd explore other non-Crestron thermostat options that have an open API, like Aprilaire 8800, to make integration with your existing Elan system seamless.
TMcG is offline  
post #78 of 84 Old 09-02-2014, 06:20 PM
Advanced Member
 
Jeff in Canada's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 563
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Liked: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnedator View Post
For the rest of the house, Lutron will be lights only (what they do well) and Elan is the overall system controller, controlling the Lutron lights. If I use them in the HT, then Lutron would control the lights and I could use either Lutron wall keypads or an Elan remote to control the lights, and then Elan would be what would control the projector, screen, etc. However, in terms of the user experience, the Elan remote would have lighting scenes, etc. all included.
Have you looked at the Cinemar Build and the Cinemar system that Mario developed? Very nice.

Equipment: Denon AVR-4520, Fusion Tempest (LCR), Fusion Alchemy (4xSurrounds+Wides+Heights),15" Dayton Ultimax X 4, SMX 2.35:1 Screen
Theater Build
DIY Speaker / Sub Build
Jeff in Canada is online now  
post #79 of 84 Old 09-02-2014, 06:43 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Tnedator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 671
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 131 Post(s)
Liked: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
Sorry, but your original post was confusing. It sounded like you had not yet made the decision between either Elan or Crestron yet as far as the automation system was concerned. Lutron has some limited control (with IR relays, etc.) that can be done via their Homeworks automation, but like you said....Lutron can do lights and nothing else.

If you are planning on Elan....then just go with Elan for the theater control as well. I just quickly reviewed their website and they have the right products to make things easy. Dennis always specs a Crestron branded thermostat to completely control the HVAC system for the theater and integrate advanced programming such as "if the projector is on, turn the HVAC fan to "ON"', which is perfect. But if that Crestron thermostat does not have an open API to allow the Elan system to talk to it, then I'd explore other non-Crestron thermostat options that have an open API, like Aprilaire 8800, to make integration with your existing Elan system seamless.
For my house, it is definitely Elan (with Lutron for lighting). The only reason I am considering Crestron for the HT, is that while I would be adding in the extra cost for the controller, otherwise, the HT could stand on it's own, and it lets me keep with the HT as a beast on its own taken care of by the Erskine group. I have a different wiring closet and equipment for the HT than the rest of the house, and by and large, it will stand alone. That said, the Elan system would be able to send RS232 commands to the Crestron system, if for instance I wanted to make sure the lights were off.

If I go the Elan route, then I'm introducing my local integrator into the HT and while they do a good job, they are also kind of a "bull in a china shop" when it comes to drilling holes and stuff. So, while there would be some economical savings on using Elan/Lutron to control the HT vs. a small Crestron controller, there is part of me that just likes the turn key nature of letting EG do it all.
Tnedator is offline  
post #80 of 84 Old 09-02-2014, 09:02 PM
Senior Member
 
dormie1360's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 467
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnedator View Post
One of my billion dollar questions (ok, more like a 10,000 dollar question).

I'm doing an Elan/Lutron system in the rest of the house. So, I will either use that to control the theater (which would mean using the local integrator) or will have a small Crestron system controlling the HT room (done by Erskine Group).
Thanks, I'm about 4 -5 months behind you, otherwise our projects are very similar. Shawn is doing mine.....,(just as opinionated ), with Steve doing the construction. My equipment budget is larger than yours, but I'm pretty sure Crestron won't be in the budget. It amazing how quickly it adds up. Anyway, I have both URC Total Control and Complete Control equipment , I'll probably go that way.

I've used Cinemar in the past, really liked the design interface, I just got away from touchscreens for theater control.

Regards,
John

Last edited by dormie1360; 09-02-2014 at 09:05 PM.
dormie1360 is offline  
post #81 of 84 Old 09-03-2014, 06:10 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Tnedator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 671
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 131 Post(s)
Liked: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by dormie1360 View Post
Thanks, I'm about 4 -5 months behind you, otherwise our projects are very similar. Shawn is doing mine.....,(just as opinionated ), with Steve doing the construction. My equipment budget is larger than yours, but I'm pretty sure Crestron won't be in the budget. It amazing how quickly it adds up. Anyway, I have both URC Total Control and Complete Control equipment , I'll probably go that way.

I've used Cinemar in the past, really liked the design interface, I just got away from touchscreens for theater control.
One of the things I like about Elan is that they have a nice remote. Real buttons for most things, but a touch screen on top for total control.



I'm going the opposite route of many, which is putting nearly all of my budget into the room, and then I will put in what equipment I can afford now, and then if necessary, upgrade equipment later.
Reddig likes this.

Last edited by Tnedator; 09-05-2014 at 09:36 PM.
Tnedator is offline  
post #82 of 84 Old 09-19-2014, 09:49 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 24,127
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 193 Post(s)
Liked: 1003
update?

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
Mfusick is online now  
post #83 of 84 Old 09-20-2014, 09:00 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Tnedator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 671
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 131 Post(s)
Liked: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
update?
None at the moment. They are waiting for my house to get a little closer to completion to come back in do phase IIa (going to split phase II -- finish, accoustic material, etc.) into to trips, trying to work with my building schedule.

Sometime between now and the end of the year (probably Late Nov/Early Dec), they will come in and do some of the wood work, hang the door and such, but hold off on acoustics and fabric until after all construction is done on the house (those things attract dust/odors).

It's giving us some time to decide on paint stain, fabric, carpet, etc.
Tnedator is offline  
post #84 of 84 Old 11-03-2014, 08:25 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Tnedator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 671
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 131 Post(s)
Liked: 34
A mini update. After the initial shell construction, things are on hold as we finish out my house. Might be ready for phase 2a of the HT build in another month or so (Steve is thinking about breaking the phase II into two trips).

I've picked out the the wood color, fabric and carpet (actually my wife and a designer did, but within the color ranges that I wanted -- I wanted carpet and fabric in the red family).

So, we are going with GOM anchorage Mulberry for the fabric.

Kain Awesome Raisin (red) carpet.

On the wood, which will be clear (non knotty) Alder, we are going with a lightish brown tone with glaze. I actually shipped back the samples we chose to Steve so he could match the production wood to them, but here is the same brown toned wood samples without the glaze.



The camera flash washes out the wood a bit, which will actually be a bit darker with the glaze on it than the picture looks, but it gives you a feel.

Now, we still need to pick out the ceiling color, since that will be painted between the wood coffers (no fabric or ceiling treatment), but other than that, it's back to waiting.

I'm waiting for some reviews of production Epson LS10000's, but if I was making the decision today, I would probably go with the Sony 600 projector.
Tnedator is offline  
Reply Dedicated Theater Design & Construction

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off