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The Bacchus Palace build thread – Erskine Group designed and constructed

30K views 187 replies 36 participants last post by  Tnedator 
#1 ·
The name is still a work in progress, but that’s what my wife is leaning towards.

We are building a new house and part of it is a dedicated home theater. After seeing my friend have a dedicated theater built in his new house, I started researching it for my new house.

I’ve had a front projection setup in my house since BenQ released their PB6100 back in ’03, but it’s always been in my living room. First, the BenQ on a painted living room wall with felt border (still dreading having to repair that when we are ready to sell this house), and then moving on to a 118” 16:9 Carada screen with an Infocus IN76. However, with the new house, it will be time to move to a dedicated home theater.

So, after lots of reading on AVS about theater construction, sound isolation, etc. I ultimately decided to work with Dennis Erskine on a design. So, initially I purchased a signature design plan (I think that’s the one) and that involved a lot of back and forth with Dennis coming up with a look that worked for both my wife and I, along with a number of back and forth’s with the architect trying to get everything lined out perfectly (more on that later).

As things proceeded with the house build I ultimately decided to have the Erskine Group come in and build the theater. There were a lot of factors behind that decision, and it wasn’t the way I originally planned to go. So, here’s my first and likely last build thread I will ever post on AVS (this is a ‘forever’ house).
 
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#2 ·
Here’s a progression first with the architect laying out the general space (over a three car garage), and then ultimately working with Dennis to both fine tune the architects plans for this area, and then the home theater plans themselves.

Ok, this is what the architect first had, which was the entire “bonus room” area over the garage, which would have been roughly 40’ by 17’. By limiting the garage below to 9’, we would have a 10’ ceiling in the home theater, and have to step down 1’ from the “game room” area outside.



Then, after the first round of conversations with Dennis, it moved to this one. We shortened the home theater, and we raised the floor of the "bar" area, so that it would be the same height as the rest of the 2nd floor of the house and same height as the back of the home theater (top of the riser).



Now, we had one more revision at the architect level, after I decided to make the garage longer. So, some of that space went to the home theater and some went to the bar area outside. In the end, the home theater space for Dennis to work with wound up being roughly 27' x 17' and 10' ceiling, however on the left hand side (facing the screen), there is about three foot of ceiling that is sloped.

So, after much back and forth, which included me sending pictures of theater elements I liked, talking about how the room would be used, what type of projector I might get, viewing angles, etc., the following is the elevation and floor plans that Dennis Erskine create (posted with his permission).









On the side and rear walls, everything that you see that isn't fabric will be stained wood.

Now, after this portion of the design was completed (and we will be sticking with this 95% or so), we've made some alternations on the fly. With Steve on site with the construction crew this week (started Tuesday), I've opted to go with a cofferred ceiling (not just for looks, but also to house Atmos speakers).

Here is a rough sketch I've drawn of what the coffered ceiling and front towers will likely look like (view from above), along with the speakers we will be able to ring the room with for Atmos purposes.

 
#3 ·
Now, after this portion of the design was completed (and we will be sticking with this 95% or so), we've made some alternations on the fly. With Steve on site with the construction crew this week (started Tuesday), I've opted to go with a cofferred ceiling (not just for looks, but also to house Atmos speakers).
Did the design above take into account the extra weight of Atmos speakers as part of the clip/channel layout?
 
#6 ·
The clip spacing in the picture you posted is much denser than mine. I was hoping there was a reason for that, other than your plans are right and my plans were wrong.
 
#7 ·
I couldn't say, but keep in mind you are looking at little slices of the clips, such as looking down on the wall, where there is both horizontal and vertical spacing and these slices sort of flatten all of those which probably make it looker much denser than it really is.
 
#8 ·
Ok, I'll mention a few mishaps and missteps that occurred before the Erskine Group was on site for their part.

1. As this is going over a garage which is 24' deep, there was a fairly long span to consider. The architect originally called for glulam or steel (12" steel or 24" glulam). During the back and forth, I told him about the weight of the sand (Dennis told me to confirm the floor would support it, since we weren't on a slab). He took into account the weight of the sand and in the stage area and then reduced the spacing of the floor joists. So, you would think all would be golden.

Just before we ordered the steel beam, I reached out to the structural engineer that was signing off on steel the local fabricator was installing and asked if we could go to a shallower beam, because the one spec'd by the architect was going to force us to either furr down around the beam, or drop the entire garage ceiling about an inch to keep it flat. So, I wanted to make sure that the engineer new about the sand and started telling him about the room, and he put on the brakes and said he needed all the details.

So, I sent him the full build spec's -- double drywall, serenity mat, extra layer of 3/4" on the floor, riser with 2" of wood decking, sand, 300lb door, etc., etc. Bottom line, not only could we not go to a shallower beam, but he spec'd a beam 3 times as heavy (in total weight of steel) as the original beam and a price to match. He said the original beams (three of them), when you figure in the thousands of pounds more (I don't remember the exact amount, but I think including the sand, 7,000-10,000 lbs or so) than a normal room would have, plus 8+ bodies and there was a chance for far more deflection than is desirable. Enough that you could pop sheetrock screws in the garage ceiling or notice a bowing (I was never clear on whether it was an actual safety issue).

This is likely more my fault than the architect. I never actually forwarded the architect the home theater plans from Dennis, because at the stage the architect was working on the framing and room layout (blueprints), it was just an outer dimension for the home theater with a note that detailed plans would come from home theater designer. I went back to him about the sand, but should have forwarded him the full set of plans, so he could have taken into account DD, serenity mat, multiple layers of 3/4" flooring, etc. So, most of this is on me.

So, moral of that story, if you are working with an architect or putting all of that weight on a non-slab, get it checked out and be sure to give them ALL the details.

2. Anyone that has read many of Dennis' posts, he doesn't recommend foam in the walls of the home theaters. If you have foam, you need to keep 2 - 2.5" of the stud bay clear to make sure there is room for fiberglass bats behind the hat channel. As I wanted to make sure things were air tight, I worked with the insulator to spray closed cell foam in the home theater walls (I'm using open cell elsewhere, but open cell takes up more space for same R value and air permeability rating). I went through with him no less than four times, and three emails how crucial it was that we spray 3-3.5" of foam, leaving at minimum 2" of the stud bay clear. I was out of town when it was sprayed (and the owner of the insulation company didn't supervise the spraying) and when I checked it out a couple days after they foamed, it was a mess. In some places, it was nearly up to or past the face of the stud. In other places, it was a good 4 - 4.5" deep, leaving 1 - 1.5".

We talked to them about it and they said they would take care of it. As early as last Saturday, two days before Steve was due to arrive, I was on site with the owner and he said, "don't worry, we'll get it taken care of." I go by the house on Monday mid day, they had done nothing and I ask my contractors to see if they can figure out a way to cut out the excess and then I called the foam guy. He says the stuff is like rock once it sets up and virtually impossible to cut out. He tell me to furr out 2" and he will cover the cost. I tell him that isn't acceptable, because we were already VERY tight on space in the aisle between curved seat and column that even losing 2" wouldn't cut it. So, my guys spend the next four hours trying every tool they have or can buy (hand saws, reciprocal saws, planers, etc.).

Finally, they were about to go buy some grinding brushes and masks and try to grind it out and I finally caved and told them to furr it out. Poof, there went my curved seating. The reality, I was probably too tight for curved seating. I had already lost 2" of my walkway (inch on each side) when I decided to switch to 2x6 wall instead of the 2x4 the architect called for, but how it happened with the foam pissed me off. Long term, I think I will be happier with the straight seating, as I will have about 30". Even as spec'd (without foam mishap or change to 2x6 wall, we only had 2' at the narrowest, but I had checked that, and that was ok when just walking past the column (considering that's to the arm of the chair and the backrest is further away). However, when you are that tight, dropping down to 1' 10" or a little less just was too much.

Moral of the story. If you decide to use closed cell foam, be on site and supervise and do it early enough that you know you can have time to force the sub to fix it if they go too thick. Open cell? No problem, you can tear that out with your hand, as we did in the angled portion, where they didn't put as much closed cell as they were supposed to and instead went with 3.5-4" of closed and then filled the 7.25" joist space with open cell. Glad they didn't do what they were supposed to here, so we could easily fix it.

Here's the room the night before Steve from Erskine Group showed up.









 
#15 ·
Ok, I'll mention a few mishaps and missteps that occurred before the Erskine Group was on site for their part.
...Anyone that has read many of Dennis' posts, he doesn't recommend foam in the walls of the home theaters. If you have foam, you need to keep 2 - 2.5" of the stud bay clear to make sure there is room for fiberglass bats behind the hat channel...
This is a heads up for me, too. I am using closed-cell foam in 2 of the exterior walls of my room. I will make it a point to be on site when they do this work.
 
#11 ·
Here's pics after they put up the clips and channels.

You get some good shots of the piece of angled ceiling that Dennis and Steve have both been working to try and disguise as much as possible. Dennis took this into account in his design and made some changes tailored to it, and then once on site, Steve came up with some more ideas and did some things to try and hide the transition from flat to angled ceiling.

In these first two pictures, you can see where we attempted to cut, grind and plane the closed cell foam to the correct depth, before giving up and furring out the studs.





 
#17 · (Edited)
I'm literally applying for permit as we speak. So far it has not come up. The building inspector and I seem to get along well, I can ask him when I see him this week about that specifically. Before I do, can I ask if you mean the inspection (like the building inspector) or if you mean require me to to hire an engineer ?

There will be an inspection. It would need to be done properly to be approved. The entire project is being inspected and fully permitted. My questions is can I design my own plans, and have my builder just build them? Or must I consult and get pro plans from an engineer ? Officially I am not calling it a "theater" I'm just calling it bonus space on the permit. So I think I fall into a gray area here. It would need to be structurally sound of coarse, but that is not the level I'd need to support double DW+GG, with sand filled stage, 8 seats, 12 adults etc...

Originally I was going to just go all in on the strength part. Use the engineered beams and do them closer than normal, perhaps even double them up for the first 5 feet under the screen wall. My thinking was if I just really go overkill on it then it should be fine. My room is too big to use standard wood. I'll need engineered lumber for my span. Instead of 16" I was thinking every 12"....or even less with engineered lumber. None of the calculators I've seen really seem to tell me what the strength is of something like that. The contractor seems to think it would be fine.

I'd like to avoid having a pole and center beam in my garage below if I can help it. The calculator I did play with used normal wood, and the results didn't seem super crazy to the load I need. With closer spacing and engineered lumber it seems reasonable, but I can't find a specific source to really confirm or deny that. I probably need to at least get some professional advice from some place.
 
#20 ·


I'm debating if I should hire a pro to consult, or just throw the same amount of money at going a level stronger on the lumber ? Contractor keeps telling me it will hold. But I'm not sure he understands how much a proper theater will weigh.
 

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#21 ·
painted living room wall with felt border (still dreading having to repair that when we are ready to sell this house)
Just leave it. I'm sure the next buyer will want a "home theater!" :p

Looks like an interesting build you've got going on. I'll be following this one!
 
#24 ·
These guys work long days and clearly have done this a "few" times. It's great to watch, because each of them knows what needs to be done.

Due to this thing called "work" I haven't been able to snap pics of every step, because they are efficient and don't waste time. Each time I ran over to the house, they were further along then I expect.

Here's Insulation and the start of drywall going up.





I went back after work to snap these pics. There was no light on in the room, so it's just lit by flash. First layer of drywall up -- no acoustical caulk yet.





I really wish I had just taken the plunge and had the architect change the roof line over the garage to give me a full 17' wide flat 10' ceiling, rather than the last few feet being sloped (keeping the existing roof line). That said, I think both during the initial design and then with some more discussions on site, I think they've come up with some good ideas to visually minimize the angled area -- it will only be partially covered by the left sofit.
 
#27 ·
Why does Dennis not like foam insulation? It's a fantastic product and better in many ways than typical fiberglass.
 
#28 ·
From an insulation standpoint, I agree. However, for sound isolation, or more accurately reducing the resonance or hollow sound you get in cavities (not sure resonance is the right sound), fiberglass or mineral wool or the like is better than foam. Dennis isn't alone in that regard. If you do a Google on "open cell foam sound isolation" you will find it's pretty universal (except from people selling/installing foam) that they recommend batt insulation.

By and large, any place that is doing tests on double drywall, green glue, resilient channel, isolation clips, etc., will also include some type of batt insulation and not foam in their tests.
 
#29 ·
How much difference is there between foam vs pinky fluff ?

I'd imagine a bunkered down sealed up double dry wall theater is already going to contain heat/cold and perform rather well simply because of the extra attention to making it air tight/sound proof. Usually drafts and things like that kill you on efficiency, but if you are going double dry wall with seams not on top seams, doing putty on back of outlets, room inside room, sealant caulk, weather stripping on a thick door... Etc... Etc... I'd imagine room performs well from the insulation perspective even with pink fluffy.

Interesting question: would a full build theater with only standard fluffy perform better than a normal room with high end foam ? I mean from an efficiency perspective. Whatcha think ?
 
#31 ·
Ok, my Atmos speaker idea might be a little unorthodox, but I think based on the speaker specs and dispersion pattern that it will work well.

Since in my first go around I'm using Klipsch Ultra II bookshelf LCR speakers, and then for surrounds I'm using Klipsch in-wall KL-7800 Ultra II speakers (won't penetrate the wall, but be mounted in the columns), I am leaning towards sticking with the Klipsch THX line (KL-6502), because they are all timbre matched.

Their true in ceiling speakers are too large to fit in the coffer beams, and obviously I want to avoid penetrating the drywall shell, so my solution is to go with Klipsch KL-6502 in wall speakers. They have the 90* dispersion pattern recommended by Dolby for Atmos top speakers.

So, I haven't chosen the location yet, but I would mount them something like this. Probably the right hand drawing.



So, we would have a beam, and the bottom of the beam would have a cutout big enough to recess slightly the entire speaker (bezel trim and all -although I could dremel some of the bezel off if needed). Then, there would either be some wood or maybe a metal bracket, that I could attach the speakers to using the build in in sheetrock clamps.

Finally, an acoustically transparent fabric cover/speaker grill, will attach up using magnets or something.

The key to the above design is that if I decide to swap all of my speakers out down the road, and lets say go to Procellas, then I could mount some of their new P5's on a bracket from the wood blocking at the top and suspend the speaker down to just above the cloth grill. Same with any other brand of speakers as long as their dimensions are no more than say 18" x 8" x 8" (height x width x depth) and not beyond 10-15lbs or so in weight (would have to confirm the weigh limit).

I'm trying to work with Dennis and Steve to make the room as flexible as possible in terms of speaker upgrades down the road. It's possible I'll install a set of speakers and be happy for the next 10 years, but I want the flexibility to change if needed and be able to do it without any tear down and rebuild.
 
#32 ·
The yellow wire......electrical? Did the electrician doing the house provide the necessary circuits up to the theater? This was spec'd out by Dennis ahead of time?
 
#33 ·
It's a mixture. Some are home runs from basement panel. Those are only to power seats and things like remote control chargers from outlets that will be in the sides of columns.

The higher ones are sconces. The Erskine crew ran the wire from those locations to the equipment closet outside the room, where they (and recessed lighting, step lights, etc) are run into a junction box where they will be tied into my whole house Lutron system. Later on, if I decide to put in a small Creston controller, we would tie it in there.

Finally, there are two sets of yellow wires behind the screen wall. One is electric run all the way back to basement. This probably won't be used. The other set is three power link connections, which basically work like long, in wall extension cords so that when I plug my powered subs in, they will be powered by the step down transformer and ups in equipment closet. The projector will have a similar power link, so it will be powered by transformer and ups.

The step down transformer will be powered by a 240v run back to main panels in basement.

All spec'd by Erskine.
 
#35 ·
Ok, there's the rest of phase I. They actually finished up after 6:00 last night and then headed home, but I was behind on sorting through pictures to upload. Basically, 7 days straight, working 10-12+ hour days.

Taped and bedded.




Sheetrock trimmed around floor to make sure there is no contact with subfloor. Then this gap was later sealed with acoustical caulk (they use a ton of that stuff).



I missed the serenity mat and floor install, but here's the floor installed.



Laying out the coffered ceiling and trying to best deal with my angled ceiling.





Building the stage, riser and steps







Low voltage wires run. As it's tight up in the attic, they ran some flexible conduit in case I need run a cable later. We will seal up the bottom of the conduit by stuffing some insulation in it and then shoving acoustical caulk in it at a later stage. It will be a mess to clean out and use, but that way I have the best of both worlds, sealed well, but later access.

Notice no wires on the left. For a number of reasons, we decided we will bring the speaker wire in directly through the wall from the attic space on this side, which will be behind the column.



I'm going to have the other side of that wall (inside the attic space) sheetrocked, to add a little more mass, and to allow us to put acoustical caulk in basically three layers of sheetrock for those penetrations. We could have run the wires in from the equipment closet into the small soffit on the left and run the length, but we decided it's better to have four small penetrations (one for each speaker wire) and caulk around it vs. cutting one larger hole to allow four wires to go through.

This is the framed out equipment closet. The top of this butts up against the angled soffit, so we could have run the wires in from here, but decided not to. The mostly blue wire on the left is various wires (CAT, fiber, etc.) that runs to a larger equipment room in my basement (done by local AV integrator). The wires on the left are from the HT room.



Sofits up.



HVAC return and supply cut:



Phase One Complete:



They will probably be back in December to put up some of the finish material, and then come back around the time I move in to put up acoustical treatment, trim, etc.

So, now I have the LONG wait until we can finish the room.
 
#36 ·
I wanted to touch on something outside of the build, because I know there has been two or three posters that claim to have had a negative experience with the Erskine group. I'm not going to address what they claimed happened, because I wasn't a party to their dealings with Dennis or others, but instead want to talk about some of my experience, including budget issues.

What I don't want to do is have Rab or the other guy turn this into an EG bash thread. If they want to get into a back and forth, bump Mad's thread and we can do that there. Instead, I just want to lay out my experience, some good, some bad, as it relates to the equipment side, which is different than the room design/build.

First, I think it was Warren that I initially spoke to and had a couple conversations with, including discussing that I would have budget issues and likely would have to "skimp" on equipment in the early phase. I also said that I didn't know if I could do all the room acoustic treatment, and asked if it would be possible to identify the most critical pieces, in case I decided to stage the room treatment (quest panels). I was told that I could get the panels color coded (or otherwise coded) with the most critical, next most critical, etc. I don't remember for sure, but I don't think it was ever presented this way. Now, if that was the case (and I honestly don't remember as it's been over a years since we started this), it's also possible I could have re-requested that and got it specified that way.

I will say that I think there is a bit of a disconnect between what Warren told me (and what others have said Shawn has said) and what Dennis wants to do. I don't think it's anything sinister, but instead that Dennis wants the best sounding room, period. When he designs a room, whether they construct it or you have someone else or do it yourself, he wants it to sound great.

I think it's that mentality he has of making a great, if not perfect, sounding room, for everyone in the room, that creates a disconnect between what some people expect and what Dennis wants to spec. --- This is my opinion.

An example was when I asked about the sweet spot (in terms of audio) and how most of the time it would be just my wife and I in the middle two seats of the first row, and he said there is no sweet spot in home theater audio as compared to stereo music and that all the seats would sound great.

So, first with Warren, and then with Dennis, I pointed out budget would be an issue, and I would probably have to go cheap on equipment initially, and focus on the room -- things that can't be easily upgraded later. They both told me that was no problem. So, I want to focus on that part of it.

When it came to speakers. Everyone knows that Dennis now recommends and feels strongly about Procellas. It seems to be a consensus that people that have been in his designed/constructed rooms with Procellas rave about the experience, so I would say that his position is clearly a solid one. That said, not all of us can afford Procellas, which at MSRP would be something like $40,000 or so for a 7.5 system (two P18 subs and P10si balancing subs).

So, I told him that I could get a really good deal on Klipsch, and wanted to know if the THX Ultra II's for LCR, and KL-7800 for surrounds, along with some Klipsch subs (powered for behind the screen and reference in walls for the balancing subs) would do the trick. He told me they would be fine. If you have read much from Dennis, he's a big believer in horns/compression driver/etc for home theaters, because he doesn't feel 1" dome tweeters are effective at HT listening distances, especially with multiple rows. So, he never tried to force me into Procellas. I asked him about some Procella options and what the cost would be, but he told me the Klipsch would work.

Also, in one email exchange, where he momentarily mixed me up with another client he was working on, he said something about me keeping/using my Polk speakers, so again, he clearly is willing to work with clients speaker choices, but as clients we also have to understand that some of his control (being sure the room sounds like he wants it to) goes away when we dictate equipment.

Same with the projector, I said that I couldn't swing a $20k+ light cannon and talked about the JVC's and some other options. In one back and forth (via email) we were both going through the projector options, trying to find one that could handle my 22' or so throw, and still be bright enough for an 11' wide 2.35 screen. When I was leaning towards one of the JVC's, he recommend going with the $3500 Epson instead and pairing it with a good anamorphic lens, which would work with my next projector when I was ready to upgrade.

Now, don't get me wrong, there were times when I said I was leaning towards ____, like say a cheaper anamorphic lens that had a vertical slide, and I might get back a "well, it's your room" response. From there, I might have to ask him why he didn't think that was a good choice and then hear that not only is the lens possibly not as good, but that a vertical slide introduces issues in the hush box configuration, because typically dealing in the horizontal plan is easier than the vertical when designing home theaters (which often are height limited, there are air flow issues with hush boxes, etc.).

However, while he has VERY strong opinions on what will work and create a good sounding room, when we were first working on an equipment quote and talking about options, because I had previously mentioned budget concerns, he initially eliminated amps and QSC DSPs and instead had the speakers being driven by an Onkyo AVR, and instead of having a surround array (two left and two right surrounds), he talked about going with a single Dipole for each surround. This wasn't driven by equipment he could sell (I wasn't buying the Klipsch from him), but instead trying to come up with the best budget compromise based on the equipment/budget restrictions I had to work with.

Keep in mind, all of this was before I decided to use them to construct the room. This was still at the point where I just had the plans and said I would mostly likely have a local contractor do the build.

So, rather than telling me the only option was $40k (give or take MSRP) in Procellas, paired with $15k worth of amps and DSPs, and a $30k projector, etc. He talked about pairing my Klipsch with a highish end Onkyo receiver and a $3,500 Epson projector and a decent anamorphic lens that could be reused when I upgraded my projector.

Now, in my case, I asked if the Klipsch would work. I'm sure if I said, "go evaluate all the internet direct and other cheap speaker options and tell me which is the best fit for my room" he probably would have told me to think again. It's just not reasonable. We all know that you can't just go on manufacturers specs on a speaker, and if he hasn't tested/used these speakers in builds, how can he spec them? Projectors are different, because they are reviewed to more or less a standard, so you can do some fairly quick research and analysis, which he did for me on projectors.

Dennis' responses can some times be a bit terse, especially when he gets a question like, "hey, those Procellas really sound great, but couldn't I get just as good a result if I buy a parts kit from Parts Express...." While I was guilty of things like that, it really comes down to walking into the Mercedes dealership and asking for something at Kia prices.

In my case, round one, I will more than likely be having them create the room, which is what I didn't want to skimp on, but then taking major short cuts on the equipment, most notably speakers. That said, I'm getting speakers that Dennis has signed off on in terms of being able to create the SPL over distance required in my size room (although I think there was a caveat about mixed success in dealing with Klipsch in the past).

So, my experience is that while his ideal is for you to have equipment (screen, projector, speakers, amps, etc) that will make "his room" sound as good as it possibly can, he is also willing to work with the customer on building a properly designed home theater, but putting in equipment which would be a step down from ideal (including in many cases equipment that he isn't a dealer for).
 
#52 ·
I wanted to touch on something outside of the build, because I know there has been two or three posters that claim to have had a negative experience with the Erskine group. I'm not going to address what they claimed happened, because I wasn't a party to their dealings with Dennis or others, but instead want to talk about some of my experience, including budget issues.

What I don't want to do is have Rab or the other guy turn this into an EG bash thread. If they want to get into a back and forth, bump Mad's thread and we can do that there. Instead, I just want to lay out my experience, some good, some bad, as it relates to the equipment side, which is different than the room design/build.



Now, in my case, I asked if the Klipsch would work. I'm sure if I said, "go evaluate all the internet direct and other cheap speaker options and tell me which is the best fit for my room" he probably would have told me to think again. It's just not reasonable. We all know that you can't just go on manufacturers specs on a speaker, and if he hasn't tested/used these speakers in builds, how can he spec them? Projectors are different, because they are reviewed to more or less a standard, so you can do some fairly quick research and analysis, which he did for me on projectors.

Dennis' responses can some times be a bit terse, especially when he gets a question like, "hey, those Procellas really sound great, but couldn't I get just as good a result if I buy a parts kit from Parts Express...." While I was guilty of things like that, it really comes down to walking into the Mercedes dealership and asking for something at Kia prices.
To be clear, none of what you are alluding to here happened in my case either. I said yes to Procella. They were cheaper than the Genelec 1034B's I was looking at and I knew how Dennis felt about 1" metal dome tweeters not cutting it for HT use. I also knew he would spec Quest acoustic panels, what they cost, and had no problems with it. It wasn't even discussed. He did tell me about a $100k Runco install he was putting in for another client, and pointed out that I couldn't afford it. Which was true. I asked him to cap the projector at $50k for something like a Sim2 Lumis that I've seen him use in the past.

But in general, I trusted my designer. What is the point of paying someone to design a good room and then not accepting any of their recommendations? I think it's valid to expect them to be able to make recommendations & design to a budget if they take payment for the job, but my equipment budget was high enough to avoid the types of issues you're talking about. The only point of contention for me, as far as price goes, was over room aesthetics. Steve wanted over $100k to trim out my room and I wasn't willing to spend that kind of money on a dark room in my basement.
 
#38 ·
Plus one on Dennis being Dennis. He is great and just speaks his mind. I like the no BS personally. A note though, he used to like using the Klipsch speakers because he had their polars and could place them accordingly. I had only positive conversations with him during my build even if he gave me answers that I didn't want to hear, they were his honest/personal opinions which I think outweigh just about anyone else's. I did throw him some curve balls like 10 21" subs which he completely ignored in my plans lol (I used them anyway and the room's FR from 70hz on down is jacked up). I then threw him another curve by switching from a mediocre JVC pj and smallerish screen to the sony vw1100es light cannon and 13' wide Stewart micro perf. He did suggest a new throw location for the pj but I just kept the initial shorter throw for more light even if it costs a tad bit of overall PQ.

Room is looking great as to be expected and think once the soffit and treatments are addressed on the slope it will look just fine.
 
#39 ·
switching from a mediocre JVC pj and smallerish screen to the sony vw1100es light cannon and 13' wide Stewart micro perf. He did suggest a new throw location for the pj but I just kept the initial shorter throw for more light even if it costs a tad bit of overall PQ.
Once calibrated, what kind of FL's are you expecting/getting?
 
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#44 · (Edited)
You guys are making me nervous. I was told perf's disappear at about 11 feet. A ST 130 G3 was spec'd out for me. First row is about 11 feet.

You are using lens memory for your 2:35 screens, is that correct?

Also doublewing, my viewing angle will be slightly larger than yours. I assume you are happy with the screen size? We are both quite a bit larger than the "recommended" viewing angles at the first row.
 
#45 ·
I've warning a few people over the past two years and I know two of the people I warned could see them at their first row and didn't purchase.

When I bought the Stewart screen I searched all the reviews and read the 11' distance so wasn't worried at all. My first row is 13'. I can see them from second row if not reclined at about 17-18'. To me they are fine with "great" material. No problem at all. Now with gainy material I see the gain wash over the perfs the entire time. 3D I don't see them at all.

Yea I use the lens memory which keeps both aspects saved.

I will add that my wife cannot see them and has technically better vision. So it probably is a sensitivity type of thing too.
 
#56 ·
Yea, my intention was to unsnap if necessary to access speakers. With the screen wall design, the frame has to be bolted in first and then the screen attached to the frame from the front (reverse that if I need behind the screen wall. There is no room for access other than within the borders of the frame.

Strange, everything I've read in the Stewart and other threads is that past 10-11' the micro-perf isn't visible on the Studiotek 130.
 
#57 ·
Strange, everything I've read in the Stewart and other threads is that past 10-11' the micro-perf isn't visible on the Studiotek 130.
I assume the 130 would be better than the 150 when referring to the texture and sparklies. I too read all the posts about 11' but have warned others before purchase that indeed saw the perfs at their intended seating position on samples/demos and ended up going with the 4k. But it's just one of them things that either live with or not when one can actually see perfs. I live with it and enjoy the screen but would rather not to be able to see them. Like some of the posters have said, they can't see them at >11' but some of us can so take it as a forewarning is all. It's a lot of money to most and all the info that can be gathered for purchasers can be quite helpful when researching such purchase. I was in SHOCK when I relied on all the posted info about not being able to see them past 11' when I sat down in front row (13') of a $30k pj/screen combo and clearly saw over 75 square foot of perfs staring at me. So I moved to the second row immediately and yep could still see them until I reclined so was somewhat relieved. My wife couldn't/doesn't see them with corrective lenses and I've never asked anyone else if they can because it's one of those things "that once you notice it, they ARE always there" type of things.

Just another trade off IMO that may or may not be of concern.
 
#65 ·
Kinda lol. Just get samples of the two, 4k and Stewart, and test for yourself. If the extra brightness isn't needed from the Stewart AND you don't see the perfs you still may want to go with the 4k for a few reasons- eg. closer to reference white screen of 4k, smoother texture of 4k, price of the 4k. 3D viewing could also play a role in the decision process. Most negative gain screens are going to suffer greatly with any "large" screen but even cinemas don't have more than aprox 5-7 foot lamberts with 3D. Many of us just accept the perfs visibility from some seating positions since having gain is required for "our own" needs. I wouldn't trade my perf screen for a non gain screen even though I purchased with the thought of them only being visible from 11' and closer.

I don't know which has better audio properties but thought it was the Stewart perfs; although, someone posted the opposite above which I asked about... waiting for response before searching. Both should provide excellent audio in the end that EQ can and will take care of most likely.

Something that I haven't brought up about the Stewart is my experience with the frame. It didn't go together without some drilling on my part. They are known for their high standards in quality control so think mine was just one of the very few that had manufacturing issues. Two of the holes were off by like 3/16" that the bolts mated to and had to widen the holes. It wasn't major at all but did make assembly very frustrating since I had to take it apart twice just to double check that their sticker labeling was correct before making the ultimate decision that it was indeed a flaw. It will never be an issue again and in the grand scheme of things it was very minor compared to all the other aspects of building a HT.
 
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