BudaHT - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!


Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 13 Old 11-18-2014, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Kortrijk, Belgium
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 2
BudaHT

Hi all!

It's always been a dream to build a HT room, and the chance finally presented itself when we bought our home a year ago.

As we don't have a large home, at first I wanted to integrate everything in the living room, but thinking more about it, this proved quite challenging. Also, the wife didn't fully aprove .

We have an extra bedroom that was first used as "temporary" storage, but since I finished rebuilding the attic a couple of months ago, we could use the spare room for entertainment purposes. Time to do something nice with it !

The room

With only 4x3.4m (~13x11ft), I don't have much room to work with. Also, because I already have all my AV gear, I'm limited in options.

Both sidewalls and the rear wall are bricks: 30cm outer walls and 20cm inner walls. The 30cm (~1ft) side wall is shared with the neighbors. The front wall is studded drywall, 10cm (4in) thick. In the back wall is a window and a radiator.

The floor is laminate on top of concrete (at least I think it is). The ceiling is drywall with (probably) hollow space (20cm) between the ceiling and the wooden floor of our bedroom above.

The most problematic is the location of the door: right next to the screen wall, which makes it kind of impossible to place my floorstanders there.

Goal is to have a multipurpose entertainment room. It will be used (in that order) for video gaming, watching movies and TV shows, listening to music, playing board games, just chilling, ...

Equipment

I will reuse my existing gear, which is currently a 5.1 setup with 16:9 screen. I don't think the room will really allow me to go for a 7.X setup?

Projector: Sony VPL-HW40ES
Screen: Draper OptiFlex Matt White XT1000V 16:9 225x127cm / ~89x50in (inc. frame: 241x143cm)

Receiver: Onkyo TX-NR616
Fronts: Q Acoustics 2050i
Center: Q Acoustics 2000Ci
Surrounds: Q Acoustics 2020i
Sub: Q Acoustics 2070Si

HTPC: looking for a new XBMC build, probably Intel NUC
Streaming: Apple TV (3th)
Gaming: PS4, Xbox 360, Super Nintendo
NAS: Synology DS213

Pictures

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_6359.JPG
Views:	101
Size:	177.8 KB
ID:	373098Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_6361.JPG
Views:	107
Size:	181.7 KB
ID:	373106Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_6369.jpg
Views:	88
Size:	111.6 KB
ID:	373114

Click image for larger version

Name:	Screenshot 2014-11-17 23.13.11.png
Views:	96
Size:	405.2 KB
ID:	373122Click image for larger version

Name:	Screenshot 2014-11-17 23.14.10.png
Views:	88
Size:	468.6 KB
ID:	373130Click image for larger version

Name:	Screenshot 2014-11-17 23.15.50.png
Views:	78
Size:	290.5 KB
ID:	373138Click image for larger version

Name:	Screenshot 2014-11-17 23.17.45.png
Views:	93
Size:	321.8 KB
ID:	373146Click image for larger version

Name:	Screenshot 2014-11-17 23.21.37.png
Views:	83
Size:	429.3 KB
ID:	373154Click image for larger version

Name:	Screenshot 2014-11-17 23.22.48.png
Views:	83
Size:	276.5 KB
ID:	373162Click image for larger version

Name:	Screenshot 2014-11-21 22.51.55.png
Views:	53
Size:	600.2 KB
ID:	378761

Current plans and questions
  • Sound insulation at the neighbors side is a must; there's a bedroom at their side. So I'll be adding a new 4" studded wall with sound absorptive insulation panels against the existing brick wall. This will reduce my width to 10'10".
  • Next to this room, at the front side, is our office which might turn into a child's room in the future. So the existing drywall will have to be opened up to put some insulation in.
  • The same counts for the ceiling: open up + insulation.
  • I don't think I will add insulation to the the other side wall, or I'll be losing even more width. Also, the door in that wall will be the weakest link anyway.
  • I probably won't be able to do much about the door and the window.
  • Also, I can't (read: am not allowed ) to replace the current floor, so I'll be using rugs on top of the existing floor.
  • Both my wife and I don't really like the soffit-type ceilings. We will probably follow another approach (see Sketchup): a drop-ceiling that leaves some space open (let's say 4") at the sides with indirect lightning. Something like this.
  • There is room in the back wall to wall corners to add "superchunk bass traps".
  • I'll have to find a spot to put the equipment. Probably a cabinet at the front wall, under the screen.

Sooo, my main questions for now are:
1) What are your thoughts? Giving the space and placement restrictions, are there major (and minor) mistakes I made, or other things to consider?
2) Except for maybe the corner bass traps, I have no clue what to do about other acoustic treatments. From a lot of reading, I gathered the early reflection points should be treated and you can never have enough bass trapping. And then there's also a choice to be made in absorption and diffusion.
3) I've been thinking that although there will only be one couch (3 seats), maybe it's beneficial to put it on a riser anyway? Screen and front speaker can go higher on the wall, meaning the projector can be mounted closer to the ceiling too. And the riser can be used as bass trap?

Thanks for your input!

Also, thanks to all the people here who showcase their (very) small HT builds! You guys inspired me to start doing this too. Especially landshark1 and snowkarver.

Last edited by duboisph; 11-21-2014 at 01:59 PM.
duboisph is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 13 Old 11-18-2014, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Kortrijk, Belgium
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 2
Updates

2014-11-22

Some new Sketchup tryouts: https://www.dropbox.com/s/u5pjfslwgi...aHT_1.skp?dl=0

Click image for larger version

Name:	Screenshot 2014-11-22 17.05.05.png
Views:	40
Size:	372.0 KB
ID:	379977Click image for larger version

Name:	Screenshot 2014-11-22 18.54.54.png
Views:	42
Size:	359.1 KB
ID:	379969

2015-04-03

Stripping the room: BudaHT

Last edited by duboisph; 04-03-2015 at 04:47 AM.
duboisph is online now  
post #3 of 13 Old 11-20-2014, 06:18 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Tedd's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Ontario
Posts: 4,486
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 252 Post(s)
Liked: 113
Why not build a window plug, and flip the room 180 degrees, so the door is in the back corner.
Tedd is offline  
post #4 of 13 Old 11-21-2014, 01:49 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Kortrijk, Belgium
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedd View Post
Why not build a window plug, and flip the room 180 degrees, so the door is in the back corner.
Good question . We did consider it, but the wife didn't fully agree with that plan. Still, let's consider it a possibility, this introduces other problems:

* The heating (a radiator) is under the window. When flipping the HT's orientation, the screen will be in front of it, so not really ideal.
* The doorway would probably still be blocked, this time by the couch. Of course, we could climb over it .
* Where would you place the surrounds? On the back wall?

I must say though, the orientation now seems to work pretty well. The LR speakers sound better like this (in an untreated room) and I couldn't hear a difference with the center speaker.

If I had carte blanche, I would actually make the room a bit larger by moving the studded wall about 1.5'. That would solve everything... Oh well, maybe for a v2.0, gotta keep dreaming.
duboisph is online now  
post #5 of 13 Old 11-21-2014, 06:18 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Tedd's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Ontario
Posts: 4,486
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 252 Post(s)
Liked: 113
Dipole side surrounds on the side walls, mounted high. Much superior small room
placement then what you propose. You ideally don't want your speakers buried in the corners
and right on the back wall.


Don't sweat a sound proofing solution then, the window will undermine all your work.
Noise will flank whatever you do to beef up that shared section of wall. Sound proofing
needs to be an all in thing.


Ideally you don't your seating right on the side walls either, so some aisle space is a good
thing audio-wise.


Didn't see any radiator in your renders. New wrinkle and a game changer.


A riser could be used as a full range bass trap IF it extends out to the side walls. The sound pressure
will be highest in the room's tricorners, so there is where the venting grilles should be. (And not one's
ears. )
Tedd is offline  
post #6 of 13 Old 11-22-2014, 06:35 AM
AVS Special Member
 
DavidK442's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 1,412
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 242 Post(s)
Liked: 147
This is going to seem crazy, but what if you put your sofa on the wall with the doorway? That would make traffic flow in the room much better and give you lots of room for your equipment on the screen wall.
Is it possible to punch a hole into the adjacent area up at the ceiling to mount a box for your projector so that you would still have sufficient throw distance? My room is 14' X 11' and I chose the short orientation for all the reasons you are struggling with now.
The only down side is that your seating is up against a wall. You will read over and over again that this is bad, but throw some large 4" thick absorbing panels back there at ear level and it can sound just fine. In fact the bass boost you get from having your head located so close to a boundary will allow you to turn your sub level down which may save neighborly relations.
Just a suggestion.
DavidK442 is online now  
post #7 of 13 Old 11-22-2014, 10:11 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Kortrijk, Belgium
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedd View Post
Dipole side surrounds on the side walls, mounted high. Much superior small room placement then what you propose. You ideally don't want your speakers buried in the corners and right on the back wall.
Allright, I moved them further from the back corner in the sketch. In the future I would probably replace them with dipoles, but for now I'll have to make to with these.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedd View Post
Don't sweat a sound proofing solution then, the window will undermine all your work.
Noise will flank whatever you do to beef up that shared section of wall. Sound proofing
needs to be an all in thing.
Are you sure about that? I walked outside with my ears and an SPL meter while something was playing, and I couldn't really hear any sound coming from the closed window. It's a double-glass window by the way.

I could make a removable plug to be sure, would that help and don't undermine the proofing on the shared wall?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedd View Post
Ideally you don't your seating right on the side walls either, so some aisle space is a good
thing audio-wise.
Yeah, I opted for a 3-seat sofa, but I guess 2 seats will have to do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedd View Post
Didn't see any radiator in your renders. New wrinkle and a game changer.
Yeah, and unfortunately not one that can easily be moved (the pipes are running through the stone walls). Am I right in concluding that radiator + screen is a bad combo?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedd View Post
A riser could be used as a full range bass trap IF it extends out to the side walls. The sound pressure
will be highest in the room's tricorners, so there is where the venting grilles should be. (And not one's
ears. )
In the current orientation I can build a riser that extends to the side walls. But what do you mean by "venting grilles"?
duboisph is online now  
post #8 of 13 Old 11-22-2014, 10:18 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Kortrijk, Belgium
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidK442 View Post
This is going to seem crazy, but what if you put your sofa on the wall with the doorway? That would make traffic flow in the room much better and give you lots of room for your equipment on the screen wall.
Is it possible to punch a hole into the adjacent area up at the ceiling to mount a box for your projector so that you would still have sufficient throw distance? My room is 14' X 11' and I chose the short orientation for all the reasons you are struggling with now.
The only down side is that your seating is up against a wall. You will read over and over again that this is bad, but throw some large 4" thick absorbing panels back there at ear level and it can sound just fine. In fact the bass boost you get from having your head located so close to a boundary will allow you to turn your sub level down which may save neighborly relations.
Just a suggestion.
Also a possibility, but as you've guessed, my PJ needs more throw distance. My step-dad works in home construction and will be visiting in a couple of weeks, so I'll ask him if it's possible to create a hole. I doubt it though, because that wall is a supporting wall (Is that the right term? There is another stone wall on top of it).
duboisph is online now  
post #9 of 13 Old 11-22-2014, 10:46 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Tedd's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Ontario
Posts: 4,486
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 252 Post(s)
Liked: 113
The term is load bearing wall here.


Bass travels through framing and glass readily. You might be listening at well below
reference level, and perhaps that sub has limited extension and output. You do have some
mass with all those stone walls, but the window should be a huge weak link.

The radiator is not a good thing regarding a center channel being under the screen.
A flipped layout doesn't work, so you are definitely right. You don't have room depth to use
an AT screen, where you would raise the center channel.


The venting grilles are simply holes cut in a riser to allow sound in, with a grille cover for safety.
You should google "Dennis Erskine Home theater builder riser" and under images, you'll
find his four page riser article. I'd dispense with the three layer decking, a single layer should be fine
with two seats.

Last edited by Tedd; 11-22-2014 at 11:01 AM.
Tedd is offline  
post #10 of 13 Old 11-24-2014, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Kortrijk, Belgium
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 2
Ok, cool. Thanks for the info, interesting read.
duboisph is online now  
post #11 of 13 Old 04-03-2015, 04:45 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Kortrijk, Belgium
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 2
Allright, an update is long overdue . Progress on the HT didn't go as planned due to other priorities and medical reasons, but now we're back to get things done.

We've been trying out different orientations, and ultimately went with placing the screen on the wall with the window. This window will get a removable plug and we'll disconnect the radiator. Most heat will be kept in the room by insulation and we are planning to add an infrared panel above the sofa.

Click image for larger version

Name:	sketch04.jpg
Views:	21
Size:	232.1 KB
ID:	643745Click image for larger version

Name:	sketch05.jpg
Views:	19
Size:	205.0 KB
ID:	643737Click image for larger version

Name:	sketch06.jpg
Views:	19
Size:	175.8 KB
ID:	643825

Sketchup file: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ir5irw93o2...HT.skp?dl=0​

All AV material is back in their boxes and we started stripping the room. This weekend we'll remove the floor (laminate) and clean everything up. Next up is electric wiring and ethernet. The plan is to use 2 new 20A (@230V, Europe) circuits: one for audio and one for video gear. Speaker wire wil go into the baseboard, so future changes to the setup shouldn't be too hard.

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_6977.jpg
Views:	27
Size:	393.7 KB
ID:	643785Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_7004.jpg
Views:	24
Size:	193.5 KB
ID:	643777Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_7005.jpg
Views:	24
Size:	314.2 KB
ID:	643769Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_7006.jpg
Views:	25
Size:	313.1 KB
ID:	643761

We'll be using double Gyproc SoundBlock drywall (higher density) and decoupled metalstuds for the ceiling and in front of the concrete partywall. Unfortunately there is no room to add new studs / hat channel to the existing wood framing of the back wall, so 1 layer of drywall will go directly on frame. I will probably add green glue for minimal decoupling/damping.

With which insulation should I fill the cavities? Gyproc recommends Isover Sonepanel (same company) for their SoundBlock system, but I've read here that less dense insulation usually works better?

Absorption coefficients:

Code:
Frequency (Hz)   125   250   500  1000  2000  4000
Thickness 40mm  0.34  0.53  0.86  0.85  0.81  0.89
Thickness 50mm  0.24  0.57  0.88  1.01  0.94  0.90
Thickness 90mm  0.74  1.08  1.09  0.97  0.91  0.94
duboisph is online now  
post #12 of 13 Old 04-03-2015, 05:49 AM
AVS Special Member
 
DavidK442's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 1,412
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 242 Post(s)
Liked: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by duboisph View Post

With which insulation should I fill the cavities? Gyproc recommends Isover Sonepanel (same company) for their SoundBlock system, but I've read here that less dense insulation usually works better?

Absorption coefficients:

Code:
Frequency (Hz)   125   250   500  1000  2000  4000
Thickness 40mm  0.34  0.53  0.86  0.85  0.81  0.89
Thickness 50mm  0.24  0.57  0.88  1.01  0.94  0.90
Thickness 90mm  0.74  1.08  1.09  0.97  0.91  0.94
The Sound Proofing Company has always recommended common, cheap, fluffy, fiberglass insulation for wall cavities.

Looks like you are going to have a great little theater for two when it is all finished.
DavidK442 is online now  
post #13 of 13 Old 04-03-2015, 11:00 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Kortrijk, Belgium
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidK442 View Post
The Sound Proofing Company has always recommended common, cheap, fluffy, fiberglass insulation for wall cavities.

Looks like you are going to have a great little theater for two when it is all finished.
Thanks! Can't wait until it's finished, but I've still got a long way to go .

About the insulation, indeed, that's what I've been reading several times on these forums too. Just thought it was weird the manufacturer recommends fiberglass panels instead. Guess they want to sell the more expensive stuff
duboisph is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Dedicated Theater Design & Construction
Gear in this thread



Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off