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post #1 of 52 Old 11-25-2015, 08:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Lightbulb Advice Requested for Humble Dedicated Theator in Existing Room *Pics/Plans Included*

Greetings from a loooong time lurker!

Warning! I’ve seriously spent over a week trying to formulate this post to be as direct and no-nonsense as possible, but I’m cursed with being an engineer so please bear with me if I start to ramble. With that being said:

I’m simply looking for advice on how to best spend my money converting a room to a home theater. I can take criticism. This isn’t a thread where I’m going to get mad at anyone for not telling me what I want to hear. I may clarify my position and reasons for planning a certain way, BUT I am here to learn so in the end, my ears are open and my predispositions are managed.

My family and I have just moved into a new-to-us home that includes a finished upstairs 22’-10” x 14’-11” x 8’ - 6” rec room. It has been my intention from when I first set eyes on it that it would be my new dedicated home theater.

Here are some pictures:

Layout:



Screen Wall:


Seating / Riser Area:


Above Ceiling Access:


Limited Under Floor Access:


As you can see, I’m not kidding when I said we just moved in. The furniture and 65” Panny in the room have only just been roughly placed here. Incidentally, I’m not planning on using any of it.

Some easy observations you can take away from the pictures:
1. It has laminate flooring and wood ceilings so it will most likely ring like a bell as-is
2. It’s on the second floor
3. It’s light controlled
4. It’s finished and has HVAC plumbed
5. It’s contained within a house that makes extensive use of spray foam insulation bringing the attic envelope up to the roofline (and coincidentally creating a climate controlled attic). Great for access and possible projector ventilation, not so great for soundproofing.

I’ve been into building cars for 15 years now and frequent a lot of automotive forums. Whenever we have a newbie join us asking for help building a car we like them to state their goals so that we can help them better. I’m guessing that type of info is helpful here as well so here we go:

Goals:
1. 16:9 Projector based using a false front wall and AT screen with viewing purposes tending towards 80% watching movies and 20% watching TV/Sports.
2. Two seating rows - 6-7 Seats with a raised rear row.
3. 7.1 Surround Sound
4. Simple IR Dimmed Lights
5. In Closet AV Rack
6. Acoustically Treated
7. Bass shakers!
8. Minimal Construction <= 6 Month Build Time *
9. Keep costs under $10k for the room not including electronics **
10. Projector hush / ventilation box (if I have money left in the budget)

* I’m no stranger to long expensive personal projects. My latest is a 6 year car restoration that I’m just now wrapping up. This project in particular has taught me how dangerous scope creep can be. I’ve also learned that extending a project over a 6 year timeline can cause you to truly hate the process. I’m finished, but my love for the car I’ve built only slightly outweighs my hatred for it. After reading through some of the long builds here I know there are people here that can relate to that feeling.

** I know this is going to be tough. This stems from a lot of reasons:
1. I’m an electrical / mechanical guy. I can do some construction, but it’s not where my talents lie
2. This is a finished second story rec room. This house was a hard sell in this area and was on the market for 8 months before my wife and I picked it up. I’d love to say we’ll never move, but I’m not that naive. On that topic, I’m very hesitant to take on a large construction project that limits the uses of the room, or lowers the resale value.
3. I’ve got other hobbies and the AVSforum sickness hasn’t fully caught me yet (for proof see my “what I’m working with” section later), so financially I can’t afford to support a fully decked out home theater.
4. I’m young and just starting a family so my family time is high priority. I can see myself taking a swing at building a house a high dollar theater from scratch once the kids are out of the house and I’m at the edge of retirement, but at this point in my life I don’t have that kind of time or money.

Things I’m willing to sacrifice in the name of my $10k budget:
1. Soundproofing. This is a biggie, but after a month of consideration I’m ready to axe it. It’s not that I don’t believe in it. I’ve read everything over at soundproofingcompany.com and buy into it all! But, despite people saying it’s ‘cheap’ I disagree. It’s expensive up front and it’s expensive from a time standpoint. This room is also upstairs so I won’t have the footsteps over my head. Finally, I’m on a 6 acre lot and my nearest neighbor is 1k ft away. This room DOES share walls with adjacent bedrooms and I fully expect the ceiling to leak sound like a sieve, but in order to meet my budget I’m willing to make the ultimate compromise and switch over to headphones for late night viewing. An option that my wife is firmly behind vs the cost / time involved with soundproofing.
2. Stage
3. Columns
4. Soffits
5. Fancy Lighting. I’m happy with the existing cans and a dimmer I can control from my Harmony 900.
6. Premium AV equipment. #1 Has me making the compromise for no soundproofing and headphones so I definitely am not concerned with volume above reference or a sub that can hit 16Hz.
7. Popcorn machine / Bar / Fridge
8. 2.4:1 and CIH via zoom memory or anamorphic lens (unless I find a projector that I’m happy with that includes zoom memory as a feature (something I haven’t had any luck with))

Decisions / Work I think I can handle on my own with references on this forum (BUT welcome recommendations):
1. Electronics / Wiring / Automation / HTPC
2. AV Calibration
3. Projector Selection (Although I’d be happy to hear recommendations for a ~$1.5k 90% 2D 10% 3D projector)
4. Screen Wall (following BIGmouth’s minimalist approach)
5. Speaker Placement
6. Seating selection
7. Paint

Decision / Work I could very much use help on:
1. General best-bang-for-buck advise relating to the goals above and my restrictive budget
2. Advice on room acoustic treatments *
3. Screen size / type recommendations based on my room size. On the same subject, seating position related to recommended screen size.
4. Riser construction. A simple approach, I’m not trying to make a bass trap. Also, ideas for making it something I can rip / saw out without destroying the room if I have to sell my house down the road.
5. Any other advice that you can offer. I’m all ears! Also feel free to address anything I’ve left out or comment on any plans I’m making that you think are a bad idea. I’d also dig pointers to similar
* I’m hoping to have a pretty decent size chunk of my budget for this. I like offerings from gikacoustics.com and would like to have money to buy panels / traps from them vs DIY, but DIY is still an option. That being said, I’m really lost on what to do for the floor / ceiling. I don’t know if a cloud type of treatment on the ceiling will be enough or if I need to look into other options. Similarly, while I’m not putting my foot down on redoing the floor, I’d like to avoid axing the laminate completely if a thick rug will do.

Finally….

What I’m working with
1. Onkyo HT-S6100 HTIB from 2008:

Onkyo HT-S6100


Other than the various input sources like my HTPC, DVR, etc and my Harmony 900 RF remote that’s pretty much it. It’s a modest setup for sure, but I’ve been very happy with it since I bought it and it has a rudimentary Audyssey tuning feature. I’m willing to explore upgrading this, or even just starting out with slightly upgraded speakers (considering built-ins for the surrounds) but for now I think this will do to get started with.

Any advice is greatly appreciated!
Lane

Last edited by HalfSpec; 11-25-2015 at 09:00 AM.
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post #2 of 52 Old 11-25-2015, 09:42 AM
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If you want to fit 7 seats in this room with a riser, flip the orientation postion a DIY acoustically transparent screen as shown and surround with black fabric making the front wall flat wall to wall. Not quite to size front row chairs are wider and row is centered. Use speakers behind the screen.

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post #3 of 52 Old 11-25-2015, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post
If you want to fit 7 seats in this room with a riser, flip the orientation postion a DIY acoustically transparent screen as shown and surround with black fabric making the front wall flat wall to wall. Not quite to size front row chairs are wider and row is centered. Use speakers behind the screen.
Wow! Thanks Jeff! It's amazing what a new set of eyes can come up with!
That actually makes my wiring much easier as well because the laundry shoot section of the room actually only occupies the space up to about waist height. The area above it is 5ft of unfinished space that opens into a cabinet out in the hall. My plan was to house all of my AV equipment in this closet anyway. Having the screen on this side + the 3 front speakers and sub means I could simply run my wiring behind the screen right to the components. Aside from that all I'd have to wire for speakers is the surrounds

The only thing that got me looking at the other side of the room for the screen wall is because I've heard it mentioned a couple of times that an entrance to a theater is preferred at the rear vs the front by the screen. I haven't really dug into the reasons for this or if it was just a couple of people preference, but I wondered if it was just for light bleeding purposes or perhaps it had something to do with acoustics. Regardless, it's going to be hard to sway me from your suggestion unless there's a very good reason to do it another way. Just the fact that this orientation solves the problem of having the riser right in front of the door is a huge bonus in my mind

Thank you for the help! And thanks for taking the time to jot down your illustration

Lane

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post #4 of 52 Old 11-25-2015, 12:20 PM
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The only thing that got me looking at the other side of the room for the screen wall is because I've heard it mentioned a couple of times that an entrance to a theater is preferred at the rear vs the front by the screen. I haven't really dug into the reasons for this or if it was just a couple of people preference, but I wondered if it was just for light bleeding purposes or perhaps it had something to do with acoustics.
The reason most often cited is they don't want to be disturbed by people coming and going. Frankly I never understood this notion, in a small room you will be disturbed if they enter in the front or the back. I stop the movie if the misses needs a break, it wouldn't matter what where the door is placed. You are right. entering at the rear compounds the difficulty of accommodating a riser. As for acoustics you can mount a panel on the door.

If that was my house I would pull the door, flip it and reinstall opening out, If it is a pre-hung this is not a big deal. You remove the case molding on both sides take a recipricoal saw and slice all the mounting nails, pull out the jamb and door in one piece, flip and re-install.
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post #5 of 52 Old 11-25-2015, 12:24 PM
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post #6 of 52 Old 11-25-2015, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post
If that was my house I would pull the door, flip it and reinstall opening out, If it is a pre-hung this is not a big deal. You remove the case molding on both sides take a recipricoal saw and slice all the mounting nails, pull out the jamb and door in one piece, flip and re-install.
Excellent suggestion. I've never hung a door before but I'll seriously look into this, especially if, like you say, its pre-hung and I can use my reciprocating saw to do the dirty work. If for nothing else, I may just do it to open up the doorway while I move materials in and out of the room.

Thanks again
Lane

PS
Whoops! Sorry Jeff. Got my threads mixed up! Trying to multi-task on a phone :\
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post #7 of 52 Old 11-25-2015, 12:42 PM
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Next I want to see some big A$$ steps in this theater, not the wimpy ones most guys use. You need to know the dimensions of your seating so you can make them snug.

Confirmed: I'm in love with BIG A$$.........................Steps
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post #8 of 52 Old 11-25-2015, 12:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Next I want to see some big A$$ steps in this theater, not the wimpy ones most guys use. You need to know the dimensions of your seating so you can make them snug.

Confirmed: I'm in love with BIG A$$.........................Steps
Haha! I've actually lurked your builds and have seen your endorsement of big A$$ steps. I'm in total agreement! I will be doing it if at all possible.

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post #9 of 52 Old 11-25-2015, 12:49 PM
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If you blow across an empty bottle, you will hear it resonate, making that booohh sound. If you enlarge that empty chamber to the size of your room, it will still resonate (of course at different frequencies than the bottle).

A map of these resonances (modes) for your room length would look roughly like this:



Notice at the midpoint of room length (11 2/4 feet), modes are either peaking or nulling. Not a good place for seating, since this will result in ragged frequency response (big peaks, deep nulls).

However, at any of the odd divisions (thirds, fifths) of room length, there are no nulls. In fact, at 2/3rd room length (between 14 1/4 and 16 2/4) most of the modal frequencies are pretty close in level. Good place for seating, since the frequency response will be smoother there (fewer/smaller peaks & dips).

With that in mind, if you're doing a couple rows of seating, the 3/5 and 4/5 points of room length would be good spots. BTW, when I say seating, I mean the listeners ears (the seats themselves aren't going to be listening).
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post #10 of 52 Old 11-25-2015, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
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With that in mind, if you're doing a couple rows of seating, the 3/5 and 4/5 points of room length would be good spots. BTW, when I say seating, I mean the listeners ears (the seats themselves aren't going to be listening).
Thank you! I will definitely try to take this into account when I settle on seats and actually start to layout the room.

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post #11 of 52 Old 11-25-2015, 01:13 PM
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I will definitely try to take this into account when I settle on seats and actually start to layout the room.
Good placement means less work for the room correction system in your AVR. Equalization can bring down peaks, but can't do anything about nulls (cancellations). When you start to lay out the room, don't worry so much about peaks, use the mode graph to avoid null locations. Good luck.

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post #12 of 52 Old 12-02-2015, 09:02 PM
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On the front screen wall, I'd suggest adding another drywall bump out to mimic the other side and balance it out.



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post #13 of 52 Old 12-02-2015, 09:13 PM
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I'd hide the bump. The front wall is totally flat side to side in my design.

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post #14 of 52 Old 12-03-2015, 06:21 AM - Thread Starter
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On the front screen wall, I'd suggest adding another drywall bump out to mimic the other side and balance it out.
My interpretation of Jeff's proposal in post 2 is to build a minimalist screen wall in front of the laundry shoot column which would flatten the wall out and give me ~3ft behind the wall for speaker placement. The minimalist screen wall shouldn't really need another mirror column structurally so I expect that's why Jeff didn't draw it in, and isn't something I would have expected to be necessary considering how bare-bones the wall will be.

Thanks for the continued help guys! I'm still here planning away. Lately I've been taking a stab at climbing the learning curve of SketchUp as I try and render the current plan for the room. Hopefully I'll have something to post in the next couple of weeks!

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post #15 of 52 Old 12-16-2015, 08:29 AM - Thread Starter
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So I've been hard at work leaning the basics of sketchup and am now at a point where I can show some ideas and open the floor up for suggestions. Before I start posting screenshots I wanted to post some general info steering some of my decisions.

16x9 vs 2.31:1 vs Riser Height:
Diving into this one, I'm leaning more towards a 125" 2.31:1 Fixed Frame AT screen by Silver Ticket:
http://silverticketproducts.com/cata...STR-235125-WAB
With a 50" height a 1:3 ratio puts the ideal seating position around 12 1/2 feet which is right behind my targeted front row position (see below). Some may say to go bigger, but you'll see below that my front speakers placement options are running into limitations even with a 125".
This is in comparison to a 16x9 110" screen I was considering earlier (still an option):
http://silverticketproducts.com/cata...STR-169110-WAB
This saves me ~4" of height and ~ 2" off my riser height. It's minimal, but it gets me to a riser height that's divisible by 6" so it makes the steps somewhat standard.
Speaking of the riser, here's my calculated requirements:



18" seems to be higher than most people shoot for, but I've made my peace with it. I understand that I massage the numbers by raising the screen, but I really don't want to raise the screen above 29" from the floor because I firmly buy into the recommendation that the bottom of the screen be at least 1/3 of the screen height below the primary seating position's eye level and have enjoyed past setups done this way. Beyond that, anyone see any problems so far?

Projector
I know I know. I'm jumping the gun shopping for electronics, but leaning towards a 2.31:1 screen is forcing my hand.
I've pretty much decided that I will be going with a Panasonic PT-AE8000U. On top of being an excellent projector I'm thinking the zoom memory will really benefit my setup and the throw length seems to be ideal for my room length.

Surround Speakers
I've actually had these on my list for a couple of months, but this is what I've got in mind for the rear and side surrounds (7.1 system planned)
Monoprice 7604 - 2 way 6 1/2" in-wall speaker:
https://www.monoprice.com/product?c_...seq=1&format=2

Room vs Primary Sitting Distance
Per sdurani's advice, I have tried to keep my primary seating row ~ the 3/5 room division. 3/5 of my 22' 10" room = 164.4 inches. My estimated ear position on my primary seating row = ~ 170-176". Overshot a little but I can always scooch forward if it makes a huge difference. The rear row is just stuck where it's at unfortunately :\

Ok, so lets get to some screenshots!

Here's the modeled room:





The model has some more detail that my house plans don't show. Specifically, there is a channel in the rear wall that was most likely added to encase an air handler or something of that nature.

Here's the proposed seating layout:

The seat measurements were modeled off of Roman's Fusion line. Specifically his Lagoon model. Realistically I won't be able to afford these seats with my budget but I wanted to at least get a starting point and his seating options have good online specs
The seats have ~6" of clearance behind them for recline, but I don't know if this will really be enough.

Here's another view with step detail:

Tried to get some giant steps going! Although, after being forced to go with 3 steps on a 18" riser they became less giant

Here's my proposed screen wall based off of Jeffs minimalist design:

Nothing too crazy going on. Like I mentioned before, the design is based around a Silver Ticket 2.31:1 Fixed Frame AT screen.
The four surrounding panels will be made of 1.25x3" , wrapped in black GOM, and velcro'd to the structure/wall. The structure provides 1" of exposed perimeter around the screen frame to facilitate the velcro on 3 sides and the column on the right side will provide the rest of the support.

Here is the proposed position for my side surrounds:

This is where things start to get interesting for me. I placed the speakers 18" above the primary listening position so the rear row can get in on the action while being able to get over the heads of the seats adjacent to the primary listening position. Is this wise? Is 18" too much? Any better recommendations?
In the same vein. I don't know what to do with the rear surrounds. As you can see I've got a column that complicates things so really, I don't think I can even space them out as wide as they need to be. Additionally, I'm not sure what height I should use. Any suggestions?

Finally, here's a shot behind the screen wall:


This is the source of most of my pain. Front speaker placement. I've got some good depth going for me, but the column is stealing width from my sound stage. My research has lead me to understand that on a AT screen setup that's switching between 2.31:1 and 16x9 (which is what I'll be doing), the front right and left should be placed outside of the 16x9 perimeter and inside the 2.31:1 perimeter. In the shot above I've outlines the 16x9 perimeter so you can see my problem. I can jam my right channel up against the column, but I'm thinking if I sit it 6-12" back from the screen that the wall's corner will mask the output of the speaker and I might get some weird reflections. In my mind that leaves me with two options. 1. Live with the narrow sound stage. 2. Go with a 16x9 screen.
Any other suggestions? Considering the two options above, which one would be easiest to live with for you?
On top of all that, I really don't have any direction for what speakers I'll be using for my right, center, and left front channels. Ideally they'd be under $100 / each and pair with the monoprice surrounds. Perhaps a narrow / taller bookshelf speaker would allow me to get the right speaker closer to the column without getting into too much trouble? Suggestions are appreciated.

Room treatments are planned but not drawn in yet.

Any help is greatly appreciated!
Lane
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post #16 of 52 Old 12-16-2015, 09:27 AM
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I've got some good depth going for me, but the column is stealing width from my sound stage.
Even in this day and age of surround sound, the front soundstage remains critical because that's where your attention will be focused, whether watching a movie or listening to music. With that in mind, I prefer having any room irregularities (door, column, etc) behind the main listening position rather than up front. I know you just modeled your room, but is there any way you can do a version flipped 180 degrees?

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post #17 of 52 Old 12-16-2015, 10:11 AM
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Things I’m willing to sacrifice in the name of my $10k budget:
1. Soundproofing. This is a biggie, but after a month of consideration I’m ready to axe it. It’s not that I don’t believe in it. I’ve read everything over at soundproofingcompany.com and buy into it all! But, despite people saying it’s ‘cheap’ I disagree. It’s expensive up front and it’s expensive from a time standpoint. This room is also upstairs so I won’t have the footsteps over my head. Finally, I’m on a 6 acre lot and my nearest neighbor is 1k ft away. This room DOES share walls with adjacent bedrooms and I fully expect the ceiling to leak sound like a sieve, but in order to meet my budget I’m willing to make the ultimate compromise and switch over to headphones for late night viewing. An option that my wife is firmly behind vs the cost / time involved with soundproofing.
2. Stage
3. Columns
4. Soffits
5. Fancy Lighting. I’m happy with the existing cans and a dimmer I can control from my Harmony 900.
6. Premium AV equipment. #1 Has me making the compromise for no soundproofing and headphones so I definitely am not concerned with volume above reference or a sub that can hit 16Hz.
7. Popcorn machine / Bar / Fridge
8. 2.4:1 and CIH via zoom memory or anamorphic lens (unless I find a projector that I’m happy with that includes zoom memory as a feature (something I haven’t had any luck with))
Regarding #8 on this list, I would suggest taking a look at the Pana PT-AE8000u. Great value and has a lens memory feature built in that many here on the forum have used (including myself now ) for CIH on a scope screen.

Link to Projector central's comprehensive video: http://www.projectorcentral.com/Panasonic-PT-AE8000.htm

BTW, I also have the "knack" and this disease is one without a cure I'm afraid - embrace it! This forum is a sort of AA for that i think...
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post #18 of 52 Old 12-16-2015, 11:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Even in this day and age of surround sound, the front soundstage remains critical because that's where your attention will be focused, whether watching a movie or listening to music. With that in mind, I prefer having any room irregularities (door, column, etc) behind the main listening position rather than up front. I know you just modeled your room, but is there any way you can do a version flipped 180 degrees?
I can flip the room 180 degrees for sure. Modeling is time consuming but its much less expensive than making mistakes in realtime haha!
Before I take the time to make the flip though, I can already see issues that make it problematic for other reasons.
1. I'll be dealing with a similar problem. Yes, I'll gain ~ 1' of clearance to expand the soundstage but I'll still have a column to deal with except it'll be in the way of the left channel vs the right.
2. Losing 1' on the backend of the room will remove the possibility of seating 4.
3. Walking into the door at the rear will having me walking into the riser. That's not insurmountable but still an extra problem to figure out.

Alternatively, wouldn't it be simpler to just go with my option 2 and settle for a 110" 16:9 format screen? That would give me plenty of room behind the screen to position the right and left channels (outline of 110" 16:9 screen viewable width is shown in the modeled pic looking into the space behind the 125" 2.31:1 screen.)

Definitely not fighting to hear what I want to hear. I just want to explore all good options and not burn up any more expensive holiday time than I have to

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Originally Posted by PApilgrim View Post
Regarding #8 on this list, I would suggest taking a look at the Pana PT-AE8000u. Great value and has a lens memory feature built in that many here on the forum have used (including myself now ) for CIH on a scope screen.
You read my mind! See my last post
I've been considering the PT-AE8000u for about 2 months ago but have been going back and forth due to the issues discussed the the owners forum. I've pretty much decided to bite the bullet though. With a 2.31:1 screen its definitely my top pick!

Thanks for the help guys
Lane

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post #19 of 52 Old 12-16-2015, 11:49 AM
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I'll gain ~ 1' of clearance to expand the soundstage but I'll still have a column to deal with except it'll be in the way of the left channel vs the right.
Hard to read the numbers in the pics. What are the dimensions of the two columns, width (left to right) and depth (front to back)?

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Quote:
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Hard to read the numbers in the pics. What are the dimensions of the two columns, width (left to right) and depth (front to back)?
Sorry about that. Photobucket shrunk my pictures down. Try these:





Basically the column by the seats has a width of 1' 8" and depth of 1' 8" whereas the column near the current screen wall has a width of 2' 8" and a depth of 2' 7"

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Thanx, Lane. For the sake of symmetry, you have to pretend the column is on both sides. In which case the smaller column buys you a full two feet more of width to spread your speakers. The additional placement flexibility will be useful not just for a wider soundstage but also if you want to place your L/C/R speakers where they can help reduce peaks & dips across the width of your room (width modes).

In order to open the door, the riser won't be able to exceed the width of the laundry chute column. This might result in 3 seats instead of 4 back there, unless you're willing to have the second row slightly off centre. Just to confirm, your room width is 14'11', right?

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Thanx, Lane. For the sake of symmetry, you have to pretend the column is on both sides. In which case the smaller column buys you a full two feet more of width to spread your speakers. The additional placement flexibility will be useful not just for a wider soundstage but also if you want to place your L/C/R speakers where they can help reduce peaks & dips across the width of your room (width modes).
That makes sense. Thanks for breaking it down.

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Just to confirm, your room width is 14'11', right?
Almost. It's officially 14' 4"

Just for kicks, I'll work on mirroring the design to have the screen on the opposite wall. If I can figure out a clever / functional way of doing the riser, I may be able to make do with seating for 6. I'm not crazy about moving the door around, but I may consider doing it if it can get me out of the riser jam. I'm just thinking that even decreasing the rear seating to 3, tucking the rear viewers into that 2' 7" space adjacent to the column seems like it would really screw with the left surrounds.

Thank you
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post #23 of 52 Old 12-16-2015, 02:09 PM
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I'm not crazy about moving the door around...
Then keep it at the same location but have it open outwards.

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Just how big does a laundry chute have to be? Could it be shrunk fractionally (to steal a little more room depth) and the front wall rebuilt?
Does that narrow wall fronting the laundry chute really need to be 2x4" construction? Could a 3/4" plywood front wall, plus some layers of DD
with Green glue, and then a slight shrink of the chute depth, might buy you space for a baffle wall, and not impact on room depth


I have to wonder if that, combined with a baffle wall front wall design, possibly with the door moved over several inches, might equate to a very solid
without the room flip?


Spaceman did a rebuild of a alcove up front, in his build, and was able to create some space. Might be worth a look at his thread. He also did an island style riser.
A similar approach might just net you a single BigA$$ step. Looks like there also be some wiggle room to raise that screen.

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post #25 of 52 Old 12-16-2015, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
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If you blow across an empty bottle, you will hear it resonate, making that booohh sound. If you enlarge that empty chamber to the size of your room, it will still resonate (of course at different frequencies than the bottle).

A map of these resonances (modes) for your room length would look roughly like this:



Notice at the midpoint of room length (11 2/4 feet), modes are either peaking or nulling. Not a good place for seating, since this will result in ragged frequency response (big peaks, deep nulls).

However, at any of the odd divisions (thirds, fifths) of room length, there are no nulls. In fact, at 2/3rd room length (between 14 1/4 and 16 2/4) most of the modal frequencies are pretty close in level. Good place for seating, since the frequency response will be smoother there (fewer/smaller peaks & dips).

With that in mind, if you're doing a couple rows of seating, the 3/5 and 4/5 points of room length would be good spots. BTW, when I say seating, I mean the listeners ears (the seats themselves aren't going to be listening).

Sanjay
Sending you a PM about this graph.


Ray

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Check out my budget build thread...

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Check out my budget build thread...

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Will do! I'll bookmark it to read tomorrow. Thanks! Seriously! I saw $5000 build and I'm sold


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedd View Post
Just how big does a laundry chute have to be? Could it be shrunk fractionally (to steal a little more room depth) and the front wall rebuilt?
Does that narrow wall fronting the laundry chute really need to be 2x4" construction? Could a 3/4" plywood front wall, plus some layers of DD
with Green glue, and then a slight shrink of the chute depth, might buy you space for a baffle wall, and not impact on room depth


I have to wonder if that, combined with a baffle wall front wall design, possibly with the door moved over several inches, might equate to a very solid
without the room flip?


Spaceman did a rebuild of a alcove up front, in his build, and was able to create some space. Might be worth a look at his thread. He also did an island style riser.
A similar approach might just net you a single BigA$$ step. Looks like there also be some wiggle room to raise that screen.
Whoah! A lot of good ideas in this post. Thank you!
Your recommendations to look at the laundry shoot definitely has me thinking! I'll model in the details tomorrow and post what actually occupies the space. Without giving
everything away I can say that ~40" and down is really all shoot and isn't something I want to modify. That still leaves everything over 40" up for grabs assuming I want to get
into modifying it and its something I can revert easily. I did originally want to use the space for my AV equipment, but with such a large area behind the screen with the
proposed orientation (3ft) I might just stash everything behind the wall. I'll model it and post back tomorrow.
That being said, I'm really trying to stick to my budget and am sticking to a plan of modifying the house as little as possible. Moving the door even inches would be a last
resort. I also don't want to modify the actual laundry shoot system because it's well done and I'd hate to do something that would be hard to undo. Also, to keep to my strict
budget I've really kissed my dreams of a sealed room goodbye so I'm really not considering DD or GG. Finally, I really really really want to keep the bottom 1/3rd of my
screen under eye level. I've done previous setups both ways and I can't go back to a high viewing angle.

I'll definitely check into Spaceman's build as well as neverfinished94's build for ideas Thank you very much for taking the time to post!

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Then keep it at the same location but have it open outwards.
Yessir. Jeff way trying to push me in that direction back in post 4! If I have to flip the room, that's definitely something I'd look into!


Thank you very much for all the help guys. I really appreciate it. I'll put together one more proposal for opening up some room on the screen wall as proposed, then if that
fails I'll take a look at flipping the design.

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post #28 of 52 Old 12-17-2015, 05:57 AM
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Since those ideas haven't scared you off, you could rebuild and utilise the space above the laundry chute.


There's no reason the laundry chute has to take up all the vertical space. One of the ideas I am working on, for my next theater, is to bring a little wow factor outside the theater, to offset a black cave fabric walled theater.


Since that is the upper floor, the laundry chute doesn't need to extend all the way to the ceiling. I could see myself rebuilding that little alcove and bringing the laundry chute forward, at an angle. That chute could be disguised and be a panel hinged at the bottom. That panel could be part of an entry design, that could encompass the door to the end wall, and be brought forward of the wall. Now you've created room for a baffle wall (,or use in wall speakers) as the laundry chute will be angled at the front wall. And with the chute brought forward the upper chute area could be closed off, and the an av rack could be built in. You can get away with a 20" deep av rack, so that won't eat up much depth above the chute either, when you consider the av rack is using up some of that recessed alcove and the 2x4 stud wall too. So that could allow the front right speaker, to be brought over.


The second and third pictures here, represent a killer budget build to me, packed with ideas. I like the stadium seating and it's lower cost. Just more money for the projector budget... And I like the "stealthed out" door up front as part of the screen wing walls. I also like the fabric side walls but not their light color. But I appreciate the front wing walls allowing for the possibility of a more relaxed color choice.
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post #29 of 52 Old 12-17-2015, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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There's no reason the laundry chute has to take up all the vertical space.
It doesn't. I'll post the details next.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedd View Post
That chute could be disguised and be a panel hinged at the bottom.
That's how it's designed atm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedd View Post
You can get away with a 20" deep av rack, so that won't eat up much depth above the chute either, when you consider the av rack is using up some of that recessed alcove and the 2x4 stud wall too. So that could allow the front right speaker, to be brought over.
This is kinda the direction I'm thinking after your initial post yesterday. I'm pretty sure I can get the right front speakers where it needs to be, but whether I'll have enough room above the chute after modifications for a AV rack is really the big question.


Quote:
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The second and third pictures here, represent a killer budget build to me, packed with ideas. I like the stadium seating and it's lower cost. Just more money for the projector budget... And I like the "stealthed out" door up front as part of the screen wing walls. I also like the fabric side walls but not their light color. But I appreciate the front wing walls allowing for the possibility of a more relaxed color choice.
Dang! I had to look for that stealth door twice before I found it lol! Impressive! I like the stadium seating as well. I'll definitely have to do a price comparison because as it stands, it's looking like the seating has the biggest potential for breaking my budget

Side question. I started looking around for Spaceman's work and found quite a few posts here including work he's done for other people. I'm sure all of his threads are good (from what I've seen at least) and I'll eventually come across the thread you mentioned, but if you can point me to the specific thread you were referring to, that would be awesome

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post #30 of 52 Old 12-17-2015, 08:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, so this post's purpose is to take a stab at a option to correct the placement of the front right speaker while keeping the rest of the layout in place as proposed above.
To get the speaker where it needs to be it has been suggested that I move into the laundry chute area. I spent some time modeling this area, but to start, here is what I'm dealing from. Pictures are shot outside of the theater from the hall:




As you can see, the space is already a split design with the chute being hinged at the bottom. My original plan was to use the top area for a AV rack. I'm willing to sacrifice this dream in part or in full to remedy the right front speaker placement.

Here is the area added to my existing model:



I've colored the area in 3 shades to represent access levels. Green should be easy as pie to get into. The inside of the area is unfinished drywall and it would be an easy patch job to undo the work for resale. Yellow is the division material that represents about 3 1/2" between the chute and the top area. The measurements below will clarify why this is important. Red is all chute. This isn't something I want to mess with.

Here are the vertical measurements of the chute and the division material:


As you can see the top of the division material and the bottom of the easy green area is ~41 1/2" off the ground. My estimate for ear level is 45" so modifications to the green area only 'might' get me by while maintaining a near ear level aim. If necessary, I can probably work my way into the division area to gain another 3 1/2" inches putting the bottom of the speaker at ~38". Thoughts / Suggestions?

Here's the green area looking down at the base:


And here is the view behind the screen wall looking into the chute area (left most wall removed so we can look in)



Finally, here is a concentrated view with more walls removed so you can see through the screen side of the wall to see the backside of the actual screen and frame. This gives you a better idea of what it will take out of the chute area to get the speaker in position. By my count, I should really only need to go into the top chute area ~5" to get to the right edge of the screen or ~9" including the existing drywall and 2x4.



My questions are as follows:

1. Is 9" enough? Like I said above, my reading for front speaker placement concludes that an ideal spot for the left and right front speakers on a 2.31:1 screen is within the 2.31:1 border and outside of the 16:9 border. That
would should be easily done cutting into the chute ~9" but I don't know about baffling material. Should I even bother trying to create a baffle in a cutout area like this?
2. How about vertical height? I know it will be dependent on my speaker choice, but what type of overhead should I give myself?

Any help is appreciated!
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