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post #721 of 10541 Old 12-20-2005, 07:37 AM
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Any thoughts on my delimma?
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post #722 of 10541 Old 12-20-2005, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonybradley View Post

Hi Guys. I have a question about treating my side walls with OC703 1" panels at the First Reflection points.

I am very clear that I need to use Unfaced fiberglass. However, the ONLY place in my area where I can purchase 703 (found on the spi website) does not carry Unfaced boards. They can order them for me, but I have a feeling it will be more expensive. What will be the effect of using Foil or Paper covered (I don't know which acronym goes with which one FSK, etc.) fiberglass panels, with the paper or Foil facing the drywall?

No difference at all.

If the faced insulation was the other way 'round, there would be a big difference. You would no longer have as efficient a wide-band absorber, but one better at absorbing low frequencies.

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post #723 of 10541 Old 12-20-2005, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Montlick View Post

No difference at all.

If the faced insulation was the other way 'round, there would be a big difference. You would no longer have as efficient a wide-band absorber, but one better at absorbing low frequencies.

Regards,
Terry

Thanks Terry, that's great to hear. Let me ask you this. I really like nice shapes and overlayed effects from makers, such as kinetic, etc. However, I want my panels to be DIY. I was thinking of this, and you tell me if this would be a big No No!

Use a piece of MDF either painted or covered with fabric at the First Reflection Points. On top of the MDF, I would have a 1" rigid board (OC703) covered in fabric. That would give me a nice 3D look to my panels without Over Absorbing by using (2) 1" panels to create the depth. Would using MDF as a back layer be OK as I'd think that would be similar to the panel attached to drywall?

Tony
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post #724 of 10541 Old 12-20-2005, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonybradley View Post

Thanks Terry, that's great to hear. Let me ask you this. I really like nice shapes and overlayed effects from makers, such as kinetic, etc. However, I want my panels to be DIY. I was thinking of this, and you tell me if this would be a big No No!

Use a piece of MDF either painted or covered with fabric at the First Reflection Points. On top of the MDF, I would have a 1" rigid board (OC703) covered in fabric. That would give me a nice 3D look to my panels without Over Absorbing by using (2) 1" panels to create the depth. Would using MDF as a back layer be OK as I'd think that would be similar to the panel attached to drywall?

An MDF back should be no problem when covered with rigid fiberglass. Just make sure that it is fastened to the wall firmly and doesn't rattle.

You mean "either painted or covered with fabric" at the exposed sides, right? Otherwise, I don't understand.

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post #725 of 10541 Old 12-20-2005, 10:46 AM
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You got it. In simplistic design, the MDF will be a larger rectangle and the Fiberglass panel will be a smaller rectangle attached to the MDF. It will just give my panels a layered effect to look nicer (IMO)

Tony
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post #726 of 10541 Old 12-20-2005, 12:49 PM
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Quote:


What will be the effect of using Foil or Paper covered (I don't know which acronym goes with which one FSK, etc.) fiberglass panels, with the paper or Foil facing the drywall?

Acoustically, it'll be just fine.
Structurally it might be easier to support, or even glue, the facing to the wall.
If you covered your entire wall in them, then you'd have humidity/mold issues, but just a first reflection point, or even half the wall, shouldn't be a problem IMO.

For 1" first (and early) reflection points, go ahead and buy whatever's cheapest, such as faced 703.

I presume you're covering them in something eventually.

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post #727 of 10541 Old 12-20-2005, 01:41 PM
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Tony,

> What will be the effect of using Foil or Paper covered <<br />
FRK is not good for for first reflection control, but the solution is very simple: Turn the panels around so the bare fiberglass faces the room. You could peel off the FRK facing, but there's no real need to if you simply reverse the panel.

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post #728 of 10541 Old 12-20-2005, 08:46 PM
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Bob and Ethan,

Thanks. I knew I'd want the 'unfaced' portion towards the room. I just wasn't sure if there would be some wild effect with the foil or paper against the drywall.

Tony
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post #729 of 10541 Old 12-25-2005, 02:41 PM
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I am using OC 703 on side walls up to ear level. On floor I have concrete and rear area is on a 12 inch riser. When I carpet should I use padding under or glue carpet down directly to cement and riser?
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post #730 of 10541 Old 12-25-2005, 02:49 PM
 
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I would use padding because it makes the carpet more comfortable and last longer. I don't think it's going to have too much of an impact on deepening the absorption of the carpet, it won't absord much bass because it's so thin, so I don't think I would say that acoustics is something I'd consider when deciding about carpet padding. But I'd certainly use very thick padding(as thick as you can get) on cement because it makes the space more comfortable over cement without subflooring. You might not need as thick padding on the riser if you wanted to save some cash.
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post #731 of 10541 Old 12-28-2005, 12:21 PM
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In a recent thread I asked about faux fur covered fiberglass for acoustical panels (safari theme type room). Here is a related, but different question:

One of my subwoofers will be in a cabinet / enclosure that is built into the wall, so that the front of the sub will be flush with the wall (and all space around the sub packed with insulation so that the enclosure does not result in boominess).

The sub enclosure is located directly opposite where one of my acoustical panels will go. I would like for the room to appear symetrical in regards to the treatments on the walls. Accordingly, instead of a cabinet front with speaker grill cloth covering the sub woofer enclosure, I'm thinking of covering the sub enclosure's opening with the same type of faux fur fabric that will cover the acoustical panel on the other side of the room. However, I don't want to do something that distorts the sound from the sub.

The faux fur fabric can be blown through. There is about the same resistance in doing so as blowing through 2 layers of GOM. The "fur" is about 1/3" - 1/2" long.

My thought is that since the sub (Klipsch thx ultra 2 sub) will only be playing from around 15hz up to somewhere between 80hz and 150hz (depending on where it is set on installation, calibration, etc.), the faux fur fabric would not have any discernable effect on these frequencies, right???? Can anyone confirm that I'm ok doing this?

Thanks much.
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post #732 of 10541 Old 12-28-2005, 01:03 PM
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I'm confused over how to treat my rear wall and would like to hear some acoustical treatment expertise. My room is 15'9" wide and 19' long. (The rear wall and the front / screen wall are the 15'9" walls). I have 2 rows of seats. My rear row of seats is about 6" - 12" from the rear wall. I have a 7.2 setup with side surrounds and 2 rear surronds.

My question is whether, with the rear seats so close to the rear wall, should I treat the wall with absorbtion or diffusion or some combination of both?

Thanks.
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post #733 of 10541 Old 01-01-2006, 08:32 AM
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Westshorestudios,

I myself would go with abortion on the back wall. Diffusion, IMO, really is good in a large room and with the back sets so close the the back I can't see how diffusion is going to work for you.

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post #734 of 10541 Old 01-01-2006, 08:42 AM
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Westshorestudios,

I myself would go with abortion on the back wall.
Glenn

I think that is illegal in most states.

Happy New Year!

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post #735 of 10541 Old 01-01-2006, 10:49 AM
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Oh God Eric, way to much partying last night!!!!!!! Sorry about that. "Absorption"

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post #736 of 10541 Old 01-02-2006, 05:38 PM
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Hello,
I am new here I know I am about to ask a question that has already been asked (can't seem to find it)

Insul-Shield, I called the manufacturer and they told that they did not make that product anymore. I called to see where I could buy it in my location (Columbus, OH).
So, what are folks using in its place?

Thanks
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post #737 of 10541 Old 01-02-2006, 07:14 PM
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Any number of things are comparable. From JM - the Linacoustic RC coated black is what I used and is very similar to the old InsulShield.
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post #738 of 10541 Old 01-02-2006, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrohde View Post

Hello,
I am new here I know I am about to ask a question that has already been asked (can't seem to find it)

Insul-Shield, I called the manufacturer and they told that they did not make that product anymore. I called to see where I could buy it in my location (Columbus, OH).
So, what are folks using in its place?

Thanks

Owens Corner 703 unfaced 1" is popular. I bought an bonded acoustical cotton equivalent. I'm not using the cotton on a wall and it's a little more money.

Eric Snell
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post #739 of 10541 Old 01-02-2006, 07:36 PM
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Speaking of JM...

Is the Johns Manville Spin-glass board basically the same thing as the OC 703? I am looking at the 2" thick 815 (3pcf) because I can find it locally and in-stock.

The specs look different here:
http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm
FR ....125hz 250hz 500hz 1000hz 2000hz 4000hz NRC
815...0.27 0.91 1.11 1.09 1.09 1.09 1.05
703...0.17 0.86 1.14 1.07 1.02 0.98 1.00
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post #740 of 10541 Old 01-02-2006, 07:44 PM
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...another quick one... I think...

If I mount the rigid fiber board (like 703 or the JM 815) on a thin piece of wood for support, then space it away from the wall, will I still get the benefit of absorbing lower freqencies? Also, if I take one of these panels and put it in a corner, will it work to absorb deeper bass?

This way is easier and cheaper than making a frame, but I am not sure if I need the back of the fiber board to be open.
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post #741 of 10541 Old 01-02-2006, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrohde View Post

Hello,
I am new here I know I am about to ask a question that has already been asked (can't seem to find it)

Insul-Shield, I called the manufacturer and they told that they did not make that product anymore. I called to see where I could buy it in my location (Columbus, OH).
So, what are folks using in its place?

Thanks

FYI, I recently (about 6 weeks ago) purchased InsulShield IS300 unfaced 2x4 1" thick panels special ordered from Menards.

Mark
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post #742 of 10541 Old 01-03-2006, 05:36 AM
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703 and 815 are very similar.

If you mount either on a board then there is no benefit to spacing it off the wall. If you need to mount it to something, just leave the perimeter of the board so most of the fiberglass is not backed. Then you'll benefit from the spacing.

I am serious...and don't call me Shirley.
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post #743 of 10541 Old 01-03-2006, 08:08 AM
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When I am treating my front, is it generally effective to just have the 2" (OC703 or JM815) basically flush with the wall, or should I go for some spacing.

My thought is for the front wall and first reflection points, I can take the easy route and use the plywood. When I get to the corners I will either double up (and make a 4") or build a frame and create some space.

Not that this gets repeated a lot, but if I am going for bass trapping in the corners using a panel, it is better to double up to make a 4" panel, or space a 2" panel 2" away from the wall? In that case if I have foil scrim, I assume it faces the wall for general absorbtion and faces the room for "bass only"? How about for the front corners versus the rear?

They should also call this the acoustical treatment validation thread

Thanks again,
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post #744 of 10541 Old 01-03-2006, 11:55 AM
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Is 86 cents per foot an ok price for OC 703?
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post #745 of 10541 Old 01-03-2006, 02:14 PM
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Westshorestudios:
For 2" thick 703 material, I've seen prices over the past two years between $0.50 and $1.50US per square foot.
My rule of thumb that for 2" thick material, once you've found stuff for less than $1 per square foot, stop looking -- it's not worth the effort any more.
So, 86 cents is an ok price per square foot of OC 703 2".

An amateur built the Ark. Titanic was built by professionals. Of course Noah took a little advice.
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post #746 of 10541 Old 01-03-2006, 02:27 PM
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Tweakophyte:
Quote:


If I mount the rigid fiber board (like 703 or the JM 815) on a thin piece of wood for support, then space it away from the wall, will I still get the benefit of absorbing lower freqencies?

It depends on lots of things. I'd try to stick with one of the known and tested designs -- otherwise you're just hoping and who knows what you'll end up with.

If you have
- porous absorbtion, then wood, then a 2" air gap, then your wall (gypsum/drywall)
worst case you'll get a resonance that will reduce your soundproofing.

Generally speaking, wood is a reflector.
If you have wood in a sealed enclosure, it can be a membrane trap.
FRK (basically paper or foil) on the outside of fiberglass certainly reflects, but is light enough that it lets some sound through.

Ignoring what you might get for absorbtion -- why would you cover the entire back with plywood and then space it from the wall? Are you trying to hold up the fiberglass?
I'm trying to figure out how and why you're mounting the fiberglass to this piece of floating plywood. Why not just have the four corners. And if you're gluing the 703 to the wood, could you fill the wood with holes (i.e. 80% holes, 20% wood). Why not just six spacers (2"x4x"4") and use impailing clips on them to hold up the fiberglass. (BTW, I've never heard of anyone glueing fiberglass to wood. Usually they are some kind of nailed/clipped, or held by gravity, or a frame, or spring ties. Mine were friction fit into an exoskeliton frame)

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post #747 of 10541 Old 01-04-2006, 07:57 AM
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Hi Bob-

Thanks for the response. The reason for the plywood backing is to give the fiberglass additional structural support, to give me something I can staple fabric to, to make it easier to hang, and to save a few bucks and time compared to making a frame (the 1/4" board is about $3.50 and is already 2'x4'). I would take the fibreglass panel and wrap it with fabric to attach it to the plywood. I was thinking I would use these types of panels for general absorbtion, hung directly on the wall.

I would use another approach for bass trapping in the corners. I am thinking of 2" or 4" of fibreglass in a frame, possibly spaced away from the wall. For example, I could use a 1"x3" frame with 2" of fiberglass and, hung flush on the wall have 1" of spacing for the fiberglass, itself. I could also use the foil scrim (availble to me from the same supplier) facing the room, away from the room, or in the middle of two, 2" pieces of fiberglass in a 4" frame.

I have not played with any type of rigid fiberglass, so I am not familiar with how it would stand on its own with. Do you need a frame (either for support or to attach it to a wall)? How easy does it dent? Can you attach fabric directly to it? I have young kids and a wild, yellow lab, keeping them whole is a concern, as is having exposed nails (for mounting on a wall).

I've seen some simple frames made from 1"x2" and L-brackets... the problem is I have no electric cutting tools. Any other money saving shortcuts here?

One more clarification. I won't be able to just cover the whole front wall, so I was planning on hanging a few panels for absorbtion on the front wall and first reflection points. I was also planning on bass traps (i.e. thicker than 2" or spaced away from the wall) in the rear corners, and maybe the front corners. Is that okay?

Thanks again,
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post #748 of 10541 Old 01-06-2006, 07:53 AM
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post #749 of 10541 Old 01-06-2006, 10:56 AM
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Tweakophyte:

I'm a DIY guy with carpentry/plumbing/electrical/welding skills -- so I tend to think in those terms.

Quote:


I have not played with any type of rigid fiberglass, so I am not familiar with how it would stand on its own with. Do you need a frame (either for support or to attach it to a wall)? How easy does it dent? Can you attach fabric directly to it?

Without a frame you can wrap it up like a christmas present in fabric. If it's against the wall you can lean gently against it and it won't dent (much), but if you push your finger into it you'll make a hole quite easily. If it's across a corner then leaning against it, or hitting it with a vacume cleaner will sooner or later snap it in two.

Quote:


I've seen some simple frames made from 1"x2" and L-brackets... the problem is I have no electric cutting tools.

That might be your best course. Home Depot can cut the wood for you, and you can screw them together. I'm thinking 1/2"x4"x4' and 1/2"x4"x2'1" boards as an outer edge frame, without L brackets. That would create a frame that's got a 2'x4' inside surface. Wrap 2" of 703 (or whatever) in polyester batting (optional), and put that in the front of this frame (friction fit), then wrap the whole frame in any fireresistant fabric you can blow through. The rigid rockwool will keep the frame square, the wood of the frame will keep it stiff, and the fabric may help to pull it together. There is no 'back' to this style. A vaccume cleaner would bounce off the wood. And if anyone falls on it, the 703 will simply push back further into the frame without breaking. It would look something like (but not exactly like) this http://www.bobgolds.com/Absorber/OLD/IMG_0152.jpg

Any variation you come up with based on skills and parts availability is likely fine.

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post #750 of 10541 Old 01-10-2006, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BasementBob View Post

Tweakophyte:

I'm a DIY guy with carpentry/plumbing/electrical/welding skills -- so I tend to think in those terms.


Without a frame you can wrap it up like a christmas present in fabric. If it's against the wall you can lean gently against it and it won't dent (much), but if you push your finger into it you'll make a hole quite easily. If it's across a corner then leaning against it, or hitting it with a vacume cleaner will sooner or later snap it in two.

That might be your best course. Home Depot can cut the wood for you, and you can screw them together. I'm thinking 1/2"x4"x4' and 1/2"x4"x2'1" boards as an outer edge frame, without L brackets. That would create a frame that's got a 2'x4' inside surface. Wrap 2" of 703 (or whatever) in polyester batting (optional), and put that in the front of this frame (friction fit), then wrap the whole frame in any fireresistant fabric you can blow through. The rigid rockwool will keep the frame square, the wood of the frame will keep it stiff, and the fabric may help to pull it together. There is no 'back' to this style. A vaccume cleaner would bounce off the wood. And if anyone falls on it, the 703 will simply push back further into the frame without breaking. It would look something like (but not exactly like) this http://www.bobgolds.com/Absorber/OLD/IMG_0152.jpg

Any variation you come up with based on skills and parts availability is likely fine.

Bob, after looking at the coefficient chart, I noticed that R-11 Unfaced (On Wall) 3.5" has better absorption numbers than the 1" OC703. I want to make sure I'm reading this correctly. Could I make a frame and use R-11 with pollyester batting overtop of it, wrapped in fabric and get the same/better results than 1" 703? Only thing is, the panels would be about 4" thick instead of around 1". If I were to compress some of the fluffy fiberglass, would that negate it's properties at 3.5" thick?

Tony
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