Acoustical Treatments Master Thread - Page 345 - AVS Forum
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post #10321 of 10493 Old 05-28-2014, 04:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aarghon View Post

In fact, air gaps are desirable when treating . Even if the gap is built-in in GIK traps, it will do nothing bad adding an inch more, excepted doing a little good!!!

I might be wrong, , but I think what I'm saying is logical biggrin.gif

Basically you are right. We actually tested the Tri Trap at Riverbank with it tight in the corner then pulled it out a few inches to see the effect. We knew that people would have plugs and things in the way. Basically there was not any kind of negative effect on the testing. In fact it did enhance the low end absorption a bit, but nothing that I believe a human could ever hear. cool.gif
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post #10322 of 10493 Old 05-28-2014, 06:16 AM
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Thanks, I was fairly sure it was OK, but wanted to doublecheck. I probably won't do floor to ceiling, at least initially, but instead try to cover most corners halfway up the wall first. Is it kosher to place things on top of the traps? To help the WAF? i.e. a small house plant or something?

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post #10323 of 10493 Old 05-30-2014, 11:41 AM
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myfipie,

Do you have any comments/suggestions regarding the front wall as a bass/broadband absorber? I'm thinking 9.5" or possibly 15" deep depending on which way I turn the pink fluffy hanging from floor to ceiling across the entire front wall. I don't really have a good space for corner bass traps. I will probably then add some first reflection absorbers with 3" rockwool on sides and rear wall. I guess I could do the ceiling if needed as well. If there is too much MF/HF absorption I could always add some 6mil poly over some areas as needed.

Thanks
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post #10324 of 10493 Old 06-01-2014, 12:55 PM
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I'm finally getting underway for final project in room.........coffered ceiling with acoustic treatments.

I have several different Quest products in room along with typical EG two layers of Linacoustic RC with 3mil poly sandwiched between layers for front facade wall.

I have room for 6 inches in coffered ceiling for treatment and trying to decide between OC 703/705 in either 2 or 4 inches. My understanding, 4" is better for broadband absorption compared to two inches but am worried too much absorption exists already since every square inch of room is covered in some form of treatment ie perf-sorber, Q-Sorber, and other various Quest products.

I will be using MSR 3D diffusers in rear but from what I've read, 6 inch diffuser would work better for lower in spectrum than two inches. I'm open to using other diffusers if price performance alternatives are available or better suited for my situation.

Just trying to find out if my thoughts are on right track and am willing to contact professional if there are issues with my plan. Here is a diagram of my plan for absorption and diffusion..........



Absorption is for first reflections on ceiling for 1st and 2nd row seating........all absorption covers mid-points for LCR speakers. Scale is one square is one square foot.......seating is at 12.5 ft and 18.5 feet.
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post #10325 of 10493 Old 06-01-2014, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

I'm finally getting underway for final project in room.........coffered ceiling with acoustic treatments.

I have several different Quest products in room along with typical EG two layers of Linacoustic RC with 3mil poly sandwiched between layers for front facade wall.

I have room for 6 inches in coffered ceiling for treatment and trying to decide between OC 703/705 in either 2 or 4 inches. My understanding, 4" is better for broadband absorption compared to two inches but am worried too much absorption exists already since every square inch of room is covered in some form of treatment ie perf-sorber, Q-Sorber, and other various Quest products.

I will be using MSR 3D diffusers in rear but from what I've read, 6 inch diffuser would work better for lower in spectrum than two inches. I'm open to using other diffusers if price performance alternatives are available or better suited for my situation.

Just trying to find out if my thoughts are on right track and am willing to contact professional if there are issues with my plan. Here is a diagram of my plan for absorption and diffusion..........



Absorption is for first reflections on ceiling for 1st and 2nd row seating........all absorption covers mid-points for LCR speakers. Scale is one square is one square foot.......seating is at 12.5 ft and 18.5 feet.

Can't answer that question until you tell us:
a) what speakers you are using (vertical off axis, how similar is it to the on axis)
b) how high your ceiling is (reflected path length relative to direct sound and so estimation of SPL loss through reflected path)
c) what the late reflected field (reverberation) looks like in your room. Measurements are best (T60) but simulation ok

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post #10326 of 10493 Old 06-01-2014, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post

Can't answer that question until you tell us:
a) what speakers you are using (vertical off axis, how similar is it to the on axis)
b) how high your ceiling is (reflected path length relative to direct sound and so estimation of SPL loss through reflected path)
c) what the late reflected field (reverberation) looks like in your room. Measurements are best (T60) but simulation ok

Triad Gold LCR
Triad Silver LCR for surrounds......6 total

Ceilings are 10 ft

I can measure and post........
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post #10327 of 10493 Old 06-03-2014, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post


I can measure and post........

If you measure be sure to measure each speaker then both. Do not move the mic between measurements. You can then view the ETC for the reflections. Generally speaking you want to use 4" of absorption if possible for the early reflection points.

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http://www.gikacoustics.com

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post #10328 of 10493 Old 06-06-2014, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myfipie View Post

If you measure be sure to measure each speaker then both. Do not move the mic between measurements. You can then view the ETC for the reflections. Generally speaking you want to use 4" of absorption if possible for the early reflection points.

Thanks,

I'm reading conflicting info on broadband absorption on 4" OC 703 and 705. What's the skinny on either product......

BTW, your Gridfusor diffuser looks promising but 6" depth is 1" too deep........
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post #10329 of 10493 Old 06-07-2014, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myfipie View Post

If you measure be sure to measure each speaker then both. Do not move the mic between measurements. You can then view the ETC for the reflections. Generally speaking you want to use 4" of absorption if possible for the early reflection points.

BTW,

What are the differences acoustically between these products.....

MSR 2D or 6D



Acoustic Frontier's ceiling diffuser option



GIK Acoustic's Gridfuser Diffuser



Would like to know before I settle on a path.....
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post #10330 of 10493 Old 06-07-2014, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

What are the differences acoustically between these products.....

The best way to know would be if they've published several-frequency spatial response diffusion graphs for them. Without that, you can't really compare them. Like the bottom right of this simulator:

320938d1355311657-diy-sound-diffusers-free-blueprints-slim-optimized-diy-diffuser-designs-fractals-7-panel-35mm-wide-0-8-10-6-10-8-0-mod.jpg
from http://www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/766977-diy-sound-diffusers-free-blueprints-slim-optimized-diy-diffuser-designs-fractals-6.html

259076d1319204126-poly-coefficients-cont-another-thread-poly-wall-520cm-afmg-reflex.jpg
from http://www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/654179-poly-coefficients-cont-another-thread.html

833665874.jpg
from http://www.hxaudiolab.com/sound-splash.html

That said, there are some guesses you can make.

Some diffusers are simple mirror reflectors. Some take advantage of variations on QRD (quadratic-residue diffusor) shapes, based on Schroeders' number-theoretic diffusors to remove/reduce coloration and echoes, in 2D, or 3D such as RPG's Skyline

The first rule is: "Wavelengths significantly larger than an object are ignored by the object. Wavelengths significantly smaller than an object are reflected specularly (like light on a mirror). Wavelengths the same size as an object are reflected randomly." This image shows this rule:

DiffusionFrequency.GIF

AbsorptionReflectionDiffusion.GIF

So my bet is you've already got them in order, from least diffusive to most diffusive. The last requiring that it be arranged in a cube like that, not broken up and then placed onto a wall in which case the "Acoustic Frontier's ceiling diffuser option" would trump out of the four you've shown.

You should also ask yourself where you want the sound energy to go. Do you just want to reduce the first reflected energy, or you want to reflect it around the room against other reflective surfaces to build up a feeling of spaciousness. To answer those questions, it depends on what else you have in the room and where. 2D diffusers can be directional more easily than 3D diffusers. None of your four images are high frequency 2D diffusers (they're all 3D), but they're all mid frequency reflectors especially the first two.

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post #10331 of 10493 Old 06-08-2014, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BasementBob View Post

The best way to know would be if they've published several-frequency spatial response diffusion graphs for them. Without that, you can't really compare them. Like the bottom right of this simulator:

320938d1355311657-diy-sound-diffusers-free-blueprints-slim-optimized-diy-diffuser-designs-fractals-7-panel-35mm-wide-0-8-10-6-10-8-0-mod.jpg
from http://www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/766977-diy-sound-diffusers-free-blueprints-slim-optimized-diy-diffuser-designs-fractals-6.html

259076d1319204126-poly-coefficients-cont-another-thread-poly-wall-520cm-afmg-reflex.jpg
from http://www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/654179-poly-coefficients-cont-another-thread.html

833665874.jpg
from http://www.hxaudiolab.com/sound-splash.html

That said, there are some guesses you can make.

Some diffusers are simple mirror reflectors. Some take advantage of variations on QRD (quadratic-residue diffusor) shapes, based on Schroeders' number-theoretic diffusors to remove/reduce coloration and echoes, in 2D, or 3D such as RPG's Skyline

The first rule is: "Wavelengths significantly larger than an object are ignored by the object. Wavelengths significantly smaller than an object are reflected specularly (like light on a mirror). Wavelengths the same size as an object are reflected randomly." This image shows this rule:

DiffusionFrequency.GIF

AbsorptionReflectionDiffusion.GIF

So my bet is you've already got them in order, from least diffusive to most diffusive. The last requiring that it be arranged in a cube like that, not broken up and then placed onto a wall in which case the "Acoustic Frontier's ceiling diffuser option" would trump out of the four you've shown.

You should also ask yourself where you want the sound energy to go. Do you just want to reduce the first reflected energy, or you want to reflect it around the room against other reflective surfaces to build up a feeling of spaciousness. To answer those questions, it depends on what else you have in the room and where. 2D diffusers can be directional more easily than 3D diffusers. None of your four images are high frequency 2D diffusers (they're all 3D), but they're all mid frequency reflectors especially the first two.


Thanks for informative post......it was a slow read due to understanding graphs, their meaning etc.....

My room sounds good all ready due to upper 1/3 wall around room contains Quest Q-Perf treatments, lower 2/3's with either Q-Sorber or Q-Excel panels........

What I do have is a reverberation issue which can be attributed to untreated ceiling. I treated my screen wall ceiling which helped with issue to some degree...........of course all changes have been measured before and after with REW.

My conclusion after experiments was treating ceiling at 1st reflection points completely tamed the frquency issue I was hearing and detecting. In the back of ceiling area, I don't have similar products I used on ceiling front to test and measure results. It's a crap shoot finding correct 3D diffiser since I can't test in room myself.

I've searched for products and the MSR product seems to meet my needs best ie. diffuser treatment for back ceiling area to increase spaciousness/ surround effect.

To be honest, after paying big bucks for Quest treatments, I was disappointed in what they actually were. Yes, I understand R&D time.......but still. I don't want to do the same for 5-6 2X2ft ceiling diffusers. I'm using five 2X4 OC 703 4" treatments for front of ceiling which is a HUGE saving over similar Quest treatments, but am still undecided on what six 2x2ft 3D panels I need. If someone con convince me otherwise, I'm all ears............
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post #10332 of 10493 Old 06-08-2014, 08:05 AM
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I haven't really been able to find a comparison between the ATS corner bass traps and the GIK Tri Traps, there's data on each on their respective websites but to be honest, I'm not sure how to interpret it... They're essentially identical in size/price, just wondering if there's any inherent differences.

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post #10333 of 10493 Old 06-08-2014, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

after paying big bucks for Quest treatments,
Manufactured tend to have some fireproofing and a reasonable balance between rigidity of material and weight.

But there's always DIY.

Polycylindricals are easy to make (e.g. four columns for your surrounds), and do debatably better than QRDs.
Most reverberation chambers and large music halls, which are required to have diffuse sound for their tests, use polys instead of QRDs.
e.g.
reverberationroom.jpg
from http://www.acoustics.salford.ac.uk/facilities/?content=reverb
Just make absolutely sure you don't make them all the same size/diameter, because you'll get lobbing which you don't want.

MasterHandbookOfAcoustics_Poly1.jpg

MasterHandbookOfAcoustics_Poly2.jpg

Here's a ceiling polysorber
http://www.bobgolds.com/TrapTodd/home.htm

By combining room shape, with common materials such as a bunch of wooden blocks, or even stone, you can also get diffusion

Regiestudio_Amadora_Portugal_1992.jpg

This fella made his own out of Styrofoam
http://www.bobgolds.com/DifuserKgveteran/home.htm

The RPG Skylines have been copied to one degree or another all over the place.
Technically the RPG ones are probably the best numerically -- to protect the numbers their patent application deliberately has a couple of wrong well depths. Nonetheless you could look up their patent application and use those numbers and not go wrong.
skyline-patent.jpg

These numbers, for example, aren't as good, but they're probably almost as good.
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/bass-traps-acoustic-panels-foam-etc/720982-diffusion-confusion.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2e3jtqgTmEI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHTmNyo_0O0


Blackbird Studio C took this to the extreme. Their ceiling diffuser pattern and depth is incredible. Its a very unusual space to work in acoustically.
http://recording.de/uploads/newbb/50c8b5d59ca085cad2a02465fe27189a.jpg
http://download.sea-vertrieb.de/newsletterarchiv/2009/docs/blackbird_studio.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ocp29ygwcRs/UceRenIddfI/AAAAAAAABhw/po28GjEGfPI/s1600/IMG_3306.JPG
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peCF0gwTWoE

[humor]I'm guessing since you're leaning towards MSR, you're not going to mini Blackbird[/humor]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtpJtv5ngew

Some other graphs:

DiffusionByFrequency.jpg

RecordingStudioDesign_pg174_diffusion.jpg

Essentially, diffusion is just bouncing the sound in multiple directions, to
a) reduce the dB of the first reflection, and
b) increase the complexity of the sound field, giving a feeling of spaciousness.

Sometimes, just letting a woman with a credit card loose in a room does wonders for diffusion, and high frequency absorption.

But she wouldn't do this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOjHsexNBTQ#t=501
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post #10334 of 10493 Old 06-08-2014, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

Quest Q-Perf treatments ...
To be honest, after paying big bucks for Quest treatments, I was disappointed in what they actually were. Yes, I understand R&D time.......
I was curious what these were. They remind me a lot of old RPG BAD Panels.

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post #10335 of 10493 Old 06-08-2014, 10:49 AM
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post #10336 of 10493 Old 06-08-2014, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BasementBob View Post

I was curious what these were. They remind me a lot of old RPG BAD Panels.

You are absolutely correct.......they are almost exactly like RPG Bad Panels...........and price similar! eek.gif

I think I had 4-5 in my acoustical plan.........ie 4 X 8 ft sheets! Big bucks on those four sheets....

Here are other diffusers I found....manufacturer Auralex.......don't know quality or effectiveness.



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Thanks!!!

You've given me a lot of home work! I'll go through each and every one!
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post #10338 of 10493 Old 06-08-2014, 01:38 PM
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BTW, I don't know if anyone actually built this sort of thing as a poly,
or used wedges to create a reflection free zone of sorts although I suspect some of the concepts are off here for a variety of reasons,
but wedge absorbers with reflective sides have been done (e.g. last one).

[BTW, this is probably obvious, but if you RightMouseButton over each of these one at a time, and select "open in a new Tab" for each, opening a tab for each so they're all available simultaneously in tabs, you can then click on each tab to quickly go back and forth between them all]

http://www.bobgolds.com/WallWedgeAbsorber/HTPolyIdea.GIF
http://www.bobgolds.com/WallWedgeAbsorber/HTPolyIdea2.GIF
http://www.bobgolds.com/WallWedgeAbsorber/OldIdea.GIF
http://www.bobgolds.com/WallWedgeAbsorber/PointyWedgeIdea.GIF
http://www.bobgolds.com/WallWedgeAbsorber/PolyIdea.GIF
http://www.bobgolds.com/WallWedgeAbsorber/Master_Suite_lg.jpg

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post #10339 of 10493 Old 06-08-2014, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

Here are other diffusers I found....manufacturer Auralex.......don't know quality or effectiveness.
Auralex designs and acousticians are tops.
And priced the same.

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post #10340 of 10493 Old 06-09-2014, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CheYC View Post

I haven't really been able to find a comparison between the ATS corner bass traps and the GIK Tri Traps, there's data on each on their respective websites but to be honest, I'm not sure how to interpret it... They're essentially identical in size/price, just wondering if there's any inherent differences.

If you would like give me a call or email through my company website. I can give you the run down of your product.

Glenn Kuras
GIK Acoustics

http://www.gikacoustics.com

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Forgive me for the noob questions but I think it's better to post here instead of making a new thread for now.

I am trying to get the double use of blacking out a short side wall to minimize light and sound reflections. The wall is approximately 6'x9' and I want to cover the whole thing in something as thin as possible (definitely not 2"+; max 1" but thinner would be great) that will provide better sound response than drywall and won't reflect as much as even matte paint.

I was thinking some very thick, heavy acoustical fabric or some thin sound panels like these: http://4seating.com/home-theater-decor/acoustical-wall-panels-standard.htm

What else is out there? I want to minimize the cost and the light reflection is primary while sound reflection is secondary.

I am going with black. If it makes a difference, I will also be covering a section of wall over my fireplace which is about 4.5'x5' and it sticks out from the wall so I'd like to wrap it around. But I may just put some panels up there. 2 of of other main parts of the room are covered in books so no treatments will be going there and I think the books in general do an ok job.

Thoughts?

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post #10342 of 10493 Old 06-11-2014, 08:28 PM
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Hello,

I have a small room, about 10x16 with a 9' ceiling. I plan on building soffit around the perimeter of the ceiling. If I were to fill it with insulation and cover the bottom with GOM... Would that be ample for a bass trap, or will the screen wall still require traps in the corners??
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post #10343 of 10493 Old 06-14-2014, 03:42 AM
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Who makes a good, quality diffusor material that can be covered with fabric that comes in sheets so I can cut the sizes I need?

Any links to pix, website?

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post #10344 of 10493 Old 06-14-2014, 06:18 AM
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Nobody. That product doesn't exist, and can't exist, IMO.

Most diffusers are not sheets. Amplitude (edit: I meant to say phase) gratings can be designed very thin, and can work as diffusers - but are technically different. The number theory that underpins these products requires that for optimal performance a complete series be used, so no company is going to provide you with a complete series and invite you to cut it in pieces. Further, complete installations should consider the way one iteration of a diffuser or phase grating interacts with the next - so again, cutting to fit will be discouraged.

Hope that helps.

Last edited by HopefulFred; 06-14-2014 at 05:00 PM.
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post #10345 of 10493 Old 06-14-2014, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post
Who makes a good, quality diffusor material that can be covered with fabric that comes in sheets so I can cut the sizes I need?

Any links to pix, website?
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Nobody. That product doesn't exist, and can't exist, IMO.

Most diffusers are not sheets. Amplitude gratings can be designed very thin, and can work as diffusers - but are technically different. The number theory that underpins these products requires that for optimal performance a complete series be used, so no company is going to provide you with a complete series and invite you to cut it in pieces. Further, complete installations should consider the way one iteration of a diffuser or phase grating interacts with the next - so again, cutting to fit will be discouraged.

Hope that helps.
Fred hit the nail on the head.........

I've been calling manufacturers along with middle-men distributors for my projects dimensions. I've found a product that comes in a fabric panel which is 2' X 4'........I don't need product in fabric so distributor is checking if I can just receive diffuser with out frame and fabric. Product is quite spendy but will be half without other goodies.

If this product doesn't work out........then torn between Auralex T-diffuser and MSR 2" 3D products. If money is issue, MSR product is a little more than a grand while Auralex product is 1/4 cost. I'm only concerned with performance which I haven't seen raw data on either.
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post #10346 of 10493 Old 06-14-2014, 08:15 AM
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I'm not the theater phase to redo all my acoustical work but am re-doing my back wall to close off the equipment and projector (my noise floor will be crazy, crazy low). I'm putting in a couple doors that blend with the real wall as accessto racks and can cover the door with some sort of foam, etc that can be 2". So, I need something relatively effective. Rock wool, etc or something I can buy and cut?

Thanks!

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post #10347 of 10493 Old 06-16-2014, 08:15 AM
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Hello,

I have a small room, about 10x16 with a 9' ceiling. I plan on building soffit around the perimeter of the ceiling. If I were to fill it with insulation and cover the bottom with GOM... Would that be ample for a bass trap, or will the screen wall still require traps in the corners??
The more corner area you cover the better the response, but the idea you will work great! What are the sizes of the soffit you have? Generally for a soffit design I like to use 16"x16". Similar to the following.
http://www.gikacoustics.com/product/...fit-bass-trap/
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GIK Acoustics

http://www.gikacoustics.com

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post #10348 of 10493 Old 06-16-2014, 04:14 PM
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Thanks Glenn,

But I was referring to a soffit above the perimeter of the room. It will be 12" X 16" filled with insulation batting. The corners behind the screen wall was what I was hoping to get away from. You are saying the more in the corners the better right? So the above sofit bass trap should help??
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post #10349 of 10493 Old 06-17-2014, 07:47 PM
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What is the recommended way of making acoustic panels for the ceiling? How do you stop the fabric from sagging? I was thinking of using 1/4" thick foam board and attaching black material to it for the whole ceiling and then installing eye hooks (before the first layers of panels are completed so it grabs at the hat channels) into the ceiling to hang acoustic panels but I don't want any sagging material.

Suggestions as to what works would be appreciated.

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post #10350 of 10493 Old 06-17-2014, 07:58 PM
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Just received 2 cases of OC703, 24X48X2. I plan on covering the wall behind the screen wall. How are you guys applying these?? Are they prewrapped in GOM?? Are they spray painted black?? I will be using Rotofast fasteners to attach them to the wall. Please help me get started.

I'm reading 1" thick OC703 is what others are using... Is 2" too thick??

Never mind... Just read most people use 1" Linacoustic. I will buy a roll of that stuff for the screen wall. I will use the 2" OC703 for corner bass traps.

Last edited by xzener; 06-18-2014 at 07:20 PM.
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