Acoustical Treatments Master Thread - Page 349 - AVS Forum
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post #10441 of 10465 Old 09-03-2014, 05:28 AM
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I am also looking at Knauf and wondering if it just as bad as703. It is definitely cheaper then the Audimute stuff. Any thoughts as they are having sales online today so I'd like to figure it out soon. Thank you
We actually use Knauf and love it! And for it working YES! You can view our lab numbers of our products on each product page and also the following, that has a lot to do with Knauf.
http://www.gikacoustics.com/greensafe/

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post #10442 of 10465 Old 09-03-2014, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Jacob B View Post
Does that mean best practice in the first decade of the millinium, of making "super chunk corner traps" cutting OC703 in 17x17x24" triangles and stacking them, is not recommended any more?
Should I use lesser dense/rigid material than oc703 for a super chunk?



Thanks! :-)
Jacob
There has been further testing (by us and others) done at labs over the years that have shown less dense, when making a panel (or filling the corner) will work better. But 703 stacked in the corner does also work pretty well.

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In one rear corner, I need a removable bass trap (there's a small door for accessing the roof), and I was thinking making a 2'x5'x 4" OC703 filled wooden frame straddling the corner, rather than a superchunk. Would that work?
You can do that and it will work well.
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post #10443 of 10465 Old 09-03-2014, 06:22 AM
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Thanks Glenn!
I guess I will make the front wall 2" treatment and side wall 6" FRP panels (with 2" air gap) first, using OC703, and then, if my aquired OC703 material runs out, use lesser dense fiberglass for the corner traps.

For the removeable corner trap, which will have the large air gap behind the 4" panel, should that also be lesser dense material - and leave the denser OC703 for panels close to the wall?

Best,
Jacob
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post #10444 of 10465 Old 09-03-2014, 07:40 AM
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Ecose vs. 6 year old OC703 ?

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Originally Posted by myfipie View Post
We actually use Knauf and love it! And for it working YES! You can view our lab numbers of our products on each product page and also the following, that has a lot to do with Knauf.
http://www.gikacoustics.com/greensafe/
I have had 6 boxes of OC703 stored for six years, due to HT construction pause... Since then, the market appears to be moving to more indoor environment friendly products, like Knauf's Ecose line.
I am wondering whether the long storage period might have allowed the OC703 to degaz the formaldehyde used in the binder or whether they still will pollute the air in my HT if used for acustic treatment?

Would I be better of trying to sell it and buy some of the Knauf Ecose fiberglass sheets? Not least since I haven't made any panels yet?

If so, which products should I buy for replacing OC703 for 2-4" next-to-wall treatments and which product for the superchunk corner traps? I guess the Ecobatt would be for the cornertraps? Despite its low density, can it be used as a replacement all over for OC703?
It does not seem that Knauf's more rigid fiberglas is made with Ecose?
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post #10445 of 10465 Old 09-03-2014, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Jacob B View Post
I have had 6 boxes of OC703 stored for six years, due to HT construction pause... Since then, the market appears to be moving to more indoor environment friendly products, like Knauf's Ecose line.
I am wondering whether the long storage period might have allowed the OC703 to degaz the formaldehyde used in the binder or whether they still will pollute the air in my HT if used for acustic treatment?

Would I be better of trying to sell it and buy some of the Knauf Ecose fiberglass sheets? Not least since I haven't made any panels yet?

If so, which products should I buy for replacing OC703 for 2-4" next-to-wall treatments and which product for the superchunk corner traps? I guess the Ecobatt would be for the cornertraps? Despite its low density, can it be used as a replacement all over for OC703?
It does not seem that Knauf's more rigid fiberglas is made with Ecose?
To match up with 703 you would want to use 3 pound. For the filled corners use something like 1.6 pound.
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post #10446 of 10465 Old 09-03-2014, 11:12 AM
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Anybody with reasonable shipping? I just tried to make an order for two packages of roxul 60 and 5 yards of fabric and the shipping was over $100!!!
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post #10447 of 10465 Old 09-03-2014, 11:50 AM
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What is the preferred method of attaching insulation to the wall behind a AT screen... I have R19 Denim.

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post #10448 of 10465 Old 09-03-2014, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by myfipie View Post
To match up with 703 you would want to use 3 pound. For the filled corners use something like 1.6 pound.
Thanks! Would I also use the 1.6 pund stuff for 6" FRP panels (4" fiberglass with 2" air gap) ?

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Originally Posted by Jacob B View Post
I have had 6 boxes of OC703 stored for six years, due to HT construction pause... Since then, the market appears to be moving to more indoor environment friendly products, like Knauf's Ecose line.
I am wondering whether the long storage period might have allowed the OC703 to degaz the formaldehyde used in the binder or whether they still will pollute the air in my HT if used for acustic treatment?

Would I be better of trying to sell it and buy some of the Knauf Ecose fiberglass sheets? Not least since I haven't made any panels yet?
No advice on the environmental thing? - would the worst be over with the six year old OC703, or does the age make no difference on the formaldehyde issue?

Last edited by Jacob B; 09-03-2014 at 12:08 PM.
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post #10449 of 10465 Old 09-04-2014, 03:06 AM
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No advice on the environmental thing? - would the worst be over with the six year old OC703, or does the age make no difference on the formaldehyde issue?
Sorry I can't be any help there. I really do not know.

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Thanks! Would I also use the 1.6 pund stuff for 6" FRP panels (4" fiberglass with 2" air gap) ?
You could but I for DIY'ing I would use 3 pound.

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post #10450 of 10465 Old 09-04-2014, 03:06 AM
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No advice on the environmental thing? - would the worst be over with the six year old OC703, or does the age make no difference on the formaldehyde issue?
Sorry I can't be any help there. I really do not know.

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Thanks! Would I also use the 1.6 pund stuff for 6" FRP panels (4" fiberglass with 2" air gap) ?
You could but I for DIY'ing I would use 3 pound.
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post #10451 of 10465 Old 09-09-2014, 02:08 AM
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6" vs. 4"+2" ?

Effect pr. dollar not considered, which type of 6" DIY "full range" absorption panel for mounting on the wall has the best effect in the bass / lowest mid region:

1. 4" of 3 pcf fiberglass + 2" built-in airgap behind the fiberglass?
2. 6" of 3 pcf fiberglass + 0" of airgap behind?

Most talk is about optimizing absorption with a given amount of fiberglass materiel, but I cant seem to find data on optimizing the porous/air ratio for a given panel thickness.
http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm only has data on 0 vs 16" air gap, which in most small rooms only seems relevant for corner traps.

Jacob
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post #10452 of 10465 Old 09-09-2014, 12:06 PM
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1. 4" of 3 pcf fiberglass + 2" built-in airgap behind the fiberglass?
2. 6" of 3 pcf fiberglass + 0" of airgap behind?
6" for sure.. Fiberglass absorbs more then air.
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post #10453 of 10465 Old 09-09-2014, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by myfipie View Post
6" for sure.. Fiberglass absorbs more then air.
Thanks for your answer!
So when people talk about air gaps always being better than no gap, it is always with the assumption that the amount of porous absorbing materiel is given/constant, I guess?

How come the GIK scatter plates dont alter the bass absorption qualities of the panel it is mounted on? If they dont alter the depth, they must take space from the fiberglass in the panel? Or am I missing something?
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post #10454 of 10465 Old 09-09-2014, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Jacob B View Post
Thanks for your answer!
So when people talk about air gaps always being better than no gap, it is always with the assumption that the amount of porous absorbing materiel is given/constant, I guess?

How come the GIK scatter plates dont alter the bass absorption qualities of the panel it is mounted on? If they dont alter the depth, they must take space from the fiberglass in the panel? Or am I missing something?
It does compress the insulation a slight bit..but the fabric also expands on the front and back with the addition of a Scatter Plate. And the Scatter Plate isn't incredibly thick, so the amount of change the material undergoes is quite slight, only about 1/4" or less compression. As such, the effect it has is negligible.
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post #10455 of 10465 Old 09-10-2014, 05:15 AM
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Wowzah. I used to think WAF didn't exist (for me) as I've been doing all sorts of HT stuff in our new house. But I was in hot water yesterday after I put up some (GiK) acoustical treatment without running it by her first.

I treated the front corners, the side first reflections, and the rear wall. Too much, apparently. We negotiated a bit... The rear wall panel has to go. The rest, may be okay with some slight modifications. I got to learn first hand how "easy" it is to "ask for forgiveness" (vs. permission). Phew.
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post #10456 of 10465 Old 09-10-2014, 07:28 AM
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Black cork in rear half of HT?

Anyone with experience on using other materiel than carpet in the rear half of the home theater?

Since my entire ceiling has 4" OC703 (between the joists), I am considering whether to avoid using a black carpet in the entire room, and maybe go for a harder surface in the rear half, behind the first reflection zone.

The idea is that it might create a more lively room. It is a dedicated home theater room, but I will most likely retreat to the room to play stereo musik as well. Might be forced to experiment with multichannel music modes, I guess. We will see.
My living room is much larger and very lively sounding, with oak wooden floors (a rug in front of speakers). I kind of like it lively for music - it is what I am used to, anyway :-)

One idea is using black cork (30 cm squares 3.2 mm thick) glued to the OSB floor (double 1/2" OSB w/ GG, on a 10 mm rubber matt on the original pine plank floor), from the first row of seats and back, including on the floor of the riser for 2nd row.

Besides the acoustic difference, it would also be more cleaning friendly, as opposed to carpet where people (e.g. kids) are sitting with their popcorn, soda, beer, snacks etc.

To understand my acoustic layout, this is my current plan (ceiling is already done):
- The room is 20.5' x 12.5' x 8' with angled walls starting 5.5' up. Walls are DD with GG.
- A false wall will hold the AT screen 3 feet from the 2" rigid fiberglass treated front wall.
- All four wall-wall corners will have super chunk (17x17x24", rear wall) or soffit (12x31" rectangle, front wall) bass traps with fluffy fiberglass from floor up to the height of the angled walls (5½ feet).
- Front wall will also have a soffit type 12x12" trap at the wall-ceiling and wall-floor corners.
- First reflection zone on side walls will be treated with 6" rigid fiberglass from floor to 4'
- Rear wall will have 3 GIK monster traps with FRT and scatter panels and two GIK versifusors higher up flanking the rear surrounds and the projector.
- The angled side walls will have 8" wide 3' high panels (2" OC703 w/ 1½" air gap) alternating with 8" of no treatment, from AT screen to first row.
- From 1st row and back to rear wall, the angled walls will have 4 GIK versifusors in each side, with 4" rigid fiberglass treatment at the top 10" (the ceiling-side wall corner).

Hope to hear from some of you that have experienced with different floor types :-)

Cheers,
Jacob
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post #10457 of 10465 Old 09-10-2014, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoshFrosh View Post
Wowzah. I used to think WAF didn't exist (for me) as I've been doing all sorts of HT stuff in our new house. But I was in hot water yesterday after I put up some (GiK) acoustical treatment without running it by her first.

I treated the front corners, the side first reflections, and the rear wall. Too much, apparently. We negotiated a bit... The rear wall panel has to go. The rest, may be okay with some slight modifications. I got to learn first hand how "easy" it is to "ask for forgiveness" (vs. permission). Phew.
I pretty much do what I want for the HT... I negotiated with my wife when we bought the house that I got the Garage, HT, and a Pond. The way it is now going is, I have the Pond, and the HT has moved to the Garage (my decision not hers). When I need another opinion on colors in the room, I ask her for her input, and she has been 100% supportive (up until a couple of months ago she was not a happy camper though seeing all the $$$ going into it, but now that she sees it is almost completed she loves it).

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post #10458 of 10465 Old 09-10-2014, 08:39 PM
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Since your ceiling is entirely treated, adding wood floor to the rear of the room won't increase flutter echo - and since your ears will likely be obstructed by the seats you won't have a lot of direct reflections coming in to interfere with the direct signal as much. And in the rear of the room, where ambient reflections can help decrease localization of the surrounds, I would bet you'd like the result for not just two channel but theater as well. As most carpets used are not broadband absorptive, a reflective floor with a fully absorptive ceiling is actually much more often preferred than a carpeted room!

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post #10459 of 10465 Old 09-10-2014, 11:59 PM
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Just be aware that you'll most likely need to have in-ceiling speakers for Atmos then - bouncing Atmos-enabled speakers of an absoptive ceiling is not a good idea...

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post #10460 of 10465 Old 09-11-2014, 12:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob B View Post
Effect pr. dollar not considered, which type of 6" DIY "full range" absorption panel for mounting on the wall has the best effect in the bass / lowest mid region:

1. 4" of 3 pcf fiberglass + 2" built-in airgap behind the fiberglass?
2. 6" of 3 pcf fiberglass + 0" of airgap behind?

Most talk is about optimizing absorption with a given amount of fiberglass materiel, but I cant seem to find data on optimizing the porous/air ratio for a given panel thickness.
http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm only has data on 0 vs 16" air gap, which in most small rooms only seems relevant for corner traps.

Jacob
From what I have been reading: filling up 6" with 6" material will always have a little bit more effect. Still, 4" plus a 2" plenum with 50% more surface (same volume of material) will be more effective still...

Last edited by pletwals; 09-11-2014 at 12:20 AM.
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post #10461 of 10465 Old 09-16-2014, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post
I pretty much do what I want for the HT... I negotiated with my wife when we bought the house that I got the Garage, HT, and a Pond. The way it is now going is, I have the Pond, and the HT has moved to the Garage (my decision not hers). When I need another opinion on colors in the room, I ask her for her input, and she has been 100% supportive (up until a couple of months ago she was not a happy camper though seeing all the $$$ going into it, but now that she sees it is almost completed she loves it).
I'm in the same boat. Everything in the basement is mine (theater, office, full bath, server room, laundry room, and a spare bedroom) to do whatever I want with. The rest of the house is hers. Unfortunately whenever I ask her opinion on things I always get, "It's your space, you can do whatever you want with it." THEN she got pissed when I hired a designer to help me. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, right? Right now she's onboard with the theater as it gets the entertainment center out of her living room Though now she is seeing how much money is going into my office (basically a mini theater), and is having second thoughts. I'm going to see if we can get a Home Equity loan to redo the kitchen and floors upstairs for her so I can finish the theater how I want on the down low
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post #10462 of 10465 Old 09-16-2014, 04:28 PM
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I'm in the same boat. Everything in the basement is mine (theater, office, full bath, server room, laundry room, and a spare bedroom) to do whatever I want with. The rest of the house is hers. Unfortunately whenever I ask her opinion on things I always get, "It's your space, you can do whatever you want with it." THEN she got pissed when I hired a designer to help me. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, right? Right now she's onboard with the theater as it gets the entertainment center out of her living room Though now she is seeing how much money is going into my office (basically a mini theater), and is having second thoughts. I'm going to see if we can get a Home Equity loan to redo the kitchen and floors upstairs for her so I can finish the theater how I want on the down low
My wife is anxious to get the living room back since it will no longer be the theater. I am down to the 2 rooms that i wanted... HT, and pond room.

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post #10463 of 10465 Old 09-16-2014, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post
I pretty much do what I want for the HT... I negotiated with my wife when we bought the house that I got the Garage, HT, and a Pond. The way it is now going is, I have the Pond, and the HT has moved to the Garage (my decision not hers). When I need another opinion on colors in the room, I ask her for her input, and she has been 100% supportive (up until a couple of months ago she was not a happy camper though seeing all the $$$ going into it, but now that she sees it is almost completed she loves it).
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I'm in the same boat. Everything in the basement is mine (theater, office, full bath, server room, laundry room, and a spare bedroom) to do whatever I want with. The rest of the house is hers. Unfortunately whenever I ask her opinion on things I always get, "It's your space, you can do whatever you want with it." THEN she got pissed when I hired a designer to help me. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, right? Right now she's onboard with the theater as it gets the entertainment center out of her living room Though now she is seeing how much money is going into my office (basically a mini theater), and is having second thoughts. I'm going to see if we can get a Home Equity loan to redo the kitchen and floors upstairs for her so I can finish the theater how I want on the down low

The Three Musketeers? I also have a similar arrangement, the HT and work shop are mine, still in very rough stages and full of crap, but... after 5 years working over the main floor including a complete kitchen gut and replace (removed 2 walls), refinishing all hardwood floors, new windows, doors, paint and lighting I can almost see the end, possibly by the end of September!


Next up, my spaces, I might do the shop first so I can build the DTS-10's and stuff for the HT, as now I need to provision for Dolby Atmos!
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post #10464 of 10465 Old 09-17-2014, 08:42 PM
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I'm looking at getting an acoustic treatment design, and from what I gather some of these treatments can be somewhat deep. How exactly are these covered up on the wall? I was looking at using a track system like fabricmate, but most of those seem to be designed for one or 2 inches.

Also, how do you deal with this extra depth at a doorway? You'd have at least 4" of depth to cover on the side I would think.

What is the best track system to use for this?


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post #10465 of 10465 Old 09-17-2014, 08:42 PM
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I'm looking at getting an acoustic treatment design, and from what I gather some of these treatments can be somewhat deep. How exactly are these covered up on the wall? I was looking at using a track system like fabricmate, but most of those seem to be designed for one or 2 inches.

Also, how do you deal with this extra depth at a doorway? You'd have at least 4" of depth to cover on the side I would think.

What is the best, and most cost effective, track system to use for this?


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Projector - Panasonic PT-AE8000U
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Surround Speakers - TBD
Subwoofers - Dual Passive JTR Captivator Pros
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