Acoustical Treatments Master Thread - Page 350 - AVS Forum
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post #10471 of 10495 Old 09-25-2014, 05:00 AM
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Leg rest covers 1st reflections?

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Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post
I think there is plenty of reason to be very happy with hardwood floor. Consider a few things we know about acoustics and carpet. Carpet, even with the most absorbent properties and most absorbent pad, will not perform as a broadband absorber. A well-designed absorber on the ceiling could provide absorption much lower in frequency, meaning that it makes better use of itself - centering its absorption in the midrange and hopefully down into the bass region. Carpet is also often cited as helping with the response anomalies associated with "floor bounce" (the SBIR or Alison effect frequency response problem created by the first reflection of sound from the floor) but I think a careful look will show that carpet is not very effective here. Better results would probably come from choosing a speaker with better controlled dispersion in the vertical plane.

It seems that you are being fairly careful with your acoustic considerations, so I say proceed with confidence and endeavor to keep your treatments appropriately placed throughout the room and their frequency response profiles centered on areas of real concern.

Fred
I will have a planned viewing distance of 10 feet from the first row to a 9 feet wide cinemascope AT screen.
When sitting reclined in the Berkline 090s in the first row, the leg rest will cover the first reflections on the floor from the LCR speakers, and the 1st row seats will cover the FRZ for the second row...
In this case, ceiling treatment or not, would carpet or a rug between the screen and the first row have any beneficial impact at all?
It would seem that all it would do would be deaden the room with no positive effects to show for the downside? The only positive effect I can think of would be potentially less light reflection fron the floor to the screen, from black carpet as opposed to black-colored oak hardwood floor (oiled).

Anyone? Suggestions?
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post #10472 of 10495 Old 09-25-2014, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob B View Post
I will have a planned viewing distance of 10 feet from the first row to a 9 feet wide cinemascope AT screen.
When sitting reclined in the Berkline 090s in the first row, the leg rest will cover the first reflections on the floor from the LCR speakers, and the 1st row seats will cover the FRZ for the second row...
In this case, ceiling treatment or not, would carpet or a rug between the screen and the first row have any beneficial impact at all?
It would seem that all it would do would be deaden the room with no positive effects to show for the downside? The only positive effect I can think of would be potentially less light reflection fron the floor to the screen, from black carpet as opposed to black-colored oak hardwood floor (oiled).

Anyone? Suggestions?
I would think that oiled hardwood is going to give you a lot of light reflection... I would at least use a dark carpet for the first few feet from the screen.

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post #10473 of 10495 Old 09-25-2014, 12:14 PM
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So my acoustical considerations are okay, then?

I will try to test the shine in advance. I can always place a 2-3 feet wide dark rug on tje hardwood to fix a shine.
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post #10474 of 10495 Old 09-25-2014, 12:49 PM
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That's my assessment.
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post #10475 of 10495 Old 09-27-2014, 07:08 AM
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I have a home theater and the ceiling is made up of sound absorbing "ISC Black Cinetile Matte" acoustical 24" by 24" tiles from http://www.iscsupply.com . I recently bought a Denon AVR-5200w with Dolby Atmos sound along with a set of the new Andrew Jones Pioneer Elite Dolby Atmos enabled up-firing speakers. The up-firing speakers require a reflective ceiling so that the sound will bounce off the ceiling.
So, I need to replace a couple of my panels with reflective ones. It was recommended that I purchase 1/2" foam core but I would like to use pre-cut ceiling panels.
I checked online at Lowes and Home Depot and they have a variety of 24" by 24" ceiling panels but from reading the descriptions none of them specifcially say "sound reflective." There is one type - Armstrong 16-Pack Oasis Homestyle Ceiling Tile Panel (Common: 24-in x 24-in; Actual 23.704-in x 23.704-in) with a description of "Smooth plaster finish with a 3-dimensional look." Do you think those would work? Anyone have experience with these ceiling tiles and can make some recommendations?
Thanks.

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post #10476 of 10495 Old 09-27-2014, 03:19 PM
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tjenkins95:


I would imagine that the rules are similar to those for "Definitive Technology bi-polar" speakers -- namely that you aim the 'unusually radiating speaker' (i.e. the ones out the back) at drywall. (reflective, rather than diffusive)


All materials have {absorptive, reflective, transmissive} qualities.
Reflectors tend to be like rock.
Concrete, being rock like, is a great reflector {low absorptive, low transmittive, high reflective}.
Next up in reflectors are sheetrock (aka drywall).


False ceiling tiles of fiberglass or foam wouldn't be my first choice for reflectors.


My first guess is you have four alternatives:
a) [reflective] make your own ceiling tiles out of drywall
b) [reflective] make your own ceiling tiles out of 3/4" plywood
c) [diffusive] make a diffusive reflector, poly shaped, made from 1/2 inch or more thick {heat warped plastic/plexiglass, laminated wood, or fiberglass}, and hang it from the ceiling above your speakers. (see below (c))
d) [diffusive] google for and purchase a "ceiling tile sound diffuser". There are several of them out there. e.g. RPG Harmonix-K ceiling tile




(c) Like one of these:

http://www.btconline.co.uk/index.php...:154/acoustics


Alternatively, of course, you can:
a) ignore it
b) measure its effects and treat any actual problem
c) disconnect the up firing drivers
d) something else

An amateur built the Ark. Titanic was built by professionals. Of course Noah took a little advice.

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post #10477 of 10495 Old 09-28-2014, 06:48 AM
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Thanks for the feedback. Dolby Atmos upfiring-speakers require a reflective surface so out of the four alternatives:


a) [reflective] make your own ceiling tiles out of drywall
b) [reflective] make your own ceiling tiles out of 3/4" plywood


are both good options.

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post #10478 of 10495 Old 10-07-2014, 12:04 PM
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Just wrote this all up and then lost it. Here it goes for the second attempt...


I performed a search on this thread for the words "behind the screen", hoping to find any posts with regards to my need to know if I should put Base Trapping (most likely OC703 unless you guys suggest a cheaper alternative to save me some ???) BEHIND my SOLID Screen (not acoustically transparent/fabric).

I planned on buying Base Trapping for the entire front screen wall, plus the sides of the room up until "ear height" and the Cotton Batting from the "ears up".

So the question is, is it the "law of diminishing return" with regards to putting "base trapping/OC703" BEHIND the SOLID Screen if I am base trapping the entire screen wall???

I know that if you have an "acoustically transparent screen" you automatically put base trapping behind the screen, but what about for a solid screen?

I hope your answers are "no" to save me some $$$ when it comes to base trapping square footage. My screen is 160" 2.35:1 Jamestown 1.2 gain.

Thanks.

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post #10479 of 10495 Old 10-07-2014, 12:20 PM
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Also, regarding Base Trapping and OC703. Is OC703 the most expensive?

I am on a very limited budget and I am looking for cheapest "alternative" to OC703
and trying to stay away from those "high end" brands that cost $$$.

Any suggests?
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post #10480 of 10495 Old 10-07-2014, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AXLCMT View Post
Also, regarding Base Trapping and OC703. Is OC703 the most expensive?

I am on a very limited budget and I am looking for cheapest "alternative" to OC703
and trying to stay away from those "high end" brands that cost $$$.

Any suggests?
I am using Roxul R60 on my wall behind the AT screen... I believe it is less expensive than the OC703.

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post #10481 of 10495 Old 10-07-2014, 07:59 PM
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Depending on how far from the wall to your back of your screen, you will never get much real BASS (spelled like the fish, or guitar, or type of low frequency sound, but pronounced like home base, or the guitar, or the low frequency sound ) trapping. You need some good thickness to it, but it would seem that what you want to do is just prevent the wall and the back of the solid screen from becoming a big drum with sound bouncing all around back there.

How much space is between your wall and the back of your screen?

Also, you talk about bass trapping all around your room up to ear height, again, I think that there are some terms getting confused here since you would have quite the massive treatment all around the room where it wouldn't provided a good effect.

Bass traps *generally* just go in wall/wall corners, floor to ceiling to start, then can go into soffits, or along ceiling/wall and floor wall corners. Combating room resonance, reflection points, and so forth happen all around the room, like floor to ear height, etc. I am sure that I am not getting the terms exactly right either, thus my vague description, but it will be easier to get solid advice from the experts here if you at least know that bass trapping isn't an entire wall behind a screen, or floor to ear height around the room so that they can provide the best advice to you.

OC703 is a tried and true material, but as mentioned there are cheaper alternatives that yield similar results like the Roxul 60. A lot of people cover their entire front wall with linacoustic, but again, that is for acoustically transparent applications mainly. I've heard of good results with the "cotton denim insulation" as well, but you need to make a frame for it since it isn't rigid at all.

Again, come back with the distance between the wall and the back of the screen, and people can start helping you eliminate your issues there, then you can look at treating the walls with absorption, diffusion, reflection combinations.
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post #10482 of 10495 Old 10-08-2014, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickbuol View Post
Depending on how far from the wall to your back of your screen, you will never get much real BASS (spelled like the fish, or guitar, or type of low frequency sound, but pronounced like home base, or the guitar, or the low frequency sound ) trapping. You need some good thickness to it, but it would seem that what you want to do is just prevent the wall and the back of the solid screen from becoming a big drum with sound bouncing all around back there.

How much space is between your wall and the back of your screen?

Also, you talk about bass trapping all around your room up to ear height, again, I think that there are some terms getting confused here since you would have quite the massive treatment all around the room where it wouldn't provided a good effect.

Bass traps *generally* just go in wall/wall corners, floor to ceiling to start, then can go into soffits, or along ceiling/wall and floor wall corners. Combating room resonance, reflection points, and so forth happen all around the room, like floor to ear height, etc. I am sure that I am not getting the terms exactly right either, thus my vague description, but it will be easier to get solid advice from the experts here if you at least know that bass trapping isn't an entire wall behind a screen, or floor to ear height around the room so that they can provide the best advice to you.

OC703 is a tried and true material, but as mentioned there are cheaper alternatives that yield similar results like the Roxul 60. A lot of people cover their entire front wall with linacoustic, but again, that is for acoustically transparent applications mainly. I've heard of good results with the "cotton denim insulation" as well, but you need to make a frame for it since it isn't rigid at all.

Again, come back with the distance between the wall and the back of the screen, and people can start helping you eliminate your issues there, then you can look at treating the walls with absorption, diffusion, reflection combinations.
Thanks Nick. With regards to the distance between my SOLID screen and the screen wall, if I didn't put Bass Trapping behind the screen, then the screen would be directly contacting the screen wall, ie there would be not distance at all between the screen wall and screen. (no false wall here etc.) Yes, I planned on Bass Trapping all around the room up until ear height, then Cotton Batting from ear height to the ceiling.
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post #10483 of 10495 Old 10-08-2014, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickbuol View Post

Bass traps *generally* just go in wall/wall corners, floor to ceiling to start, then can go into soffits, or along ceiling/wall and floor wall corners. Combating room resonance, reflection points, and so forth happen all around the room, like floor to ear height, etc. I am sure that I am not getting the terms exactly right either, thus my vague description, but it will be easier to get solid advice from the experts here if you at least know that bass trapping isn't an entire wall behind a screen, or floor to ear height around the room so that they can provide the best advice to you.
Thanks Nick about the Bass Trapping advice. So, what then goes from Ear Height to the floor if not Bass Trapping?
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post #10484 of 10495 Old 10-08-2014, 06:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AXLCMT View Post
Thanks Nick. With regards to the distance between my SOLID screen and the screen wall, if I didn't put Bass Trapping behind the screen, then the screen would be directly contacting the screen wall, ie there would be not distance at all between the screen wall and screen. (no false wall here etc.) Yes, I planned on Bass Trapping all around the room up until ear height, then Cotton Batting from ear height to the ceiling.
A know that a lot of people put nothing behind their screen and just mount it directly on the wall. I can only speculate that a number of these people don't care about acoustical treatments, and the others feel that if the screen material is thick enough, that it will just reflect sound anyway and putting something behind the screen wouldn't yield the performance that they want.

With a solid screen, you are going to reflect higher frequencies, so if you put anything back there, it will only be for lower frequencies and bass trapping, and to do that you will need some really thick material or thick material and an air gap. At a minimum you would need 4" of acoustical insulation and a good sized air gap, but that is just starting to get into bass trapping thicknesses. 8" of insulation (OC703, Roxul 60, or similar) and some air gap for real bass trapping.

However....

You still aren't doing bass trapping like you think you are. Corners, corners, corners... That is where you get the biggest improvement from bass trapping, plus you aren't covering an entire wall with 8" of material (everything gets expensive at that point), and losing about a foot of depth just on the front wall for something that isn't going to do what you think that it is. Yes, if you did that to the entire front wall, it would provide trapping in the corners, but why pay for all of that material??

Bass trapping is only 1 part of the acoustical treatment process. You are using the term "bass trapping" for ALL parts of acoustical absorption.

Maybe you really want to put 8" of insulation around your room, but I am certainly not recommending that to anyone without some sort of measurement that would justify it, and even then I can't imagine what kind of room would need all of that.
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post #10485 of 10495 Old 10-08-2014, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AXLCMT View Post
Thanks Nick about the Bass Trapping advice. So, what then goes from Ear Height to the floor if not Bass Trapping?

Again, bass trapping requires a LOT of space (really at least 12") which just isn't very good "bang for your buck," plus takes a lot of space. You want general acoustical treatments, of which bass trapping is one piece, but it is best left for corners where it has the most positive impact on the sound in the room.

The basic, "I don't want to do room measurements" approach to absorption (there is also reflection and diffusion which are both good too) is to use 1" of OC703 in some areas and 2" of OC703 in others along the bottom half of the room (some people use 1" all around or 2" all around the bottom half of the wall, but a mix should get rid of the high rings and echos from the 1", and tame some of the more mid-level echo that is harder to hear, but muddies the audio in a room). You can make the frames all 2" and just alternate 1" and 2" insulation since you are going to have to cover it all with acoustically transparent fabric anyway and won't see the different thicknesses. Then you put your cotton batting up above if you want, but keep in mind that while cotton batting doesn't absorb as well as the material in the lower half of the wall, it still impacts the sound in the room, and you don't want to over absorb either. I would leave some of the space on the top half of the wall with nothing but solid wall behind the fabric to make it so that the room doesn't go completely dead.

Still. Doing all of this is still going to cost some money. At some point, the difference between the acoustical insulation products becomes less and less important to the total cost of the project.
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post #10486 of 10495 Old 10-08-2014, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickbuol View Post
Again, bass trapping requires a LOT of space (really at least 12") which just isn't very good "bang for your buck," plus takes a lot of space. You want general acoustical treatments, of which bass trapping is one piece, but it is best left for corners where it has the most positive impact on the sound in the room.

The basic, "I don't want to do room measurements" approach to absorption (there is also reflection and diffusion which are both good too) is to use 1" of OC703 in some areas and 2" of OC703 in others along the bottom half of the room (some people use 1" all around or 2" all around the bottom half of the wall, but a mix should get rid of the high rings and echos from the 1", and tame some of the more mid-level echo that is harder to hear, but muddies the audio in a room). You can make the frames all 2" and just alternate 1" and 2" insulation since you are going to have to cover it all with acoustically transparent fabric anyway and won't see the different thicknesses. Then you put your cotton batting up above if you want, but keep in mind that while cotton batting doesn't absorb as well as the material in the lower half of the wall, it still impacts the sound in the room, and you don't want to over absorb either. I would leave some of the space on the top half of the wall with nothing but solid wall behind the fabric to make it so that the room doesn't go completely dead.

Still. Doing all of this is still going to cost some money. At some point, the difference between the acoustical insulation products becomes less and less important to the total cost of the project.
Thanks Nick. What about Linacoustic instead of Bass Trapping OC703? (for the surrounding areas outside of the screen frame on the screen wall and also from floor to ear height on the side walls).

What about the entire rear wall? Bass Trapping for the entire rear wall?
(that is what I thought Dennis Erskine and Bryan Pape keep advising)

I will follow your advice and put the Bass Trapping OC703 in the corners though.
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post #10487 of 10495 Old 10-08-2014, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AXLCMT View Post
Thanks Nick. What about Linacoustic instead of Bass Trapping OC703? (for the surrounding areas outside of the screen frame on the screen wall and also from floor to ear height on the side walls).

What about the entire rear wall? Bass Trapping for the entire rear wall?
(that is what I thought Dennis Erskine and Bryan Pape keep advising)

I will follow your advice and put the Bass Trapping OC703 in the corners though.
Linacoustic is a commonly used product for the front wall (usually behind an acoustically transparent screen and false wall).

As for treating the back wall, again, the bass trap term has somehow poisoned your mind. LOL. I don't mean that as an insult, just teasing. Someone, somewhere gave you that term and didn't clarify it for you.

There are several schools of thought. Dead end/live end (with the front wall treated which is the dead end of the room, and then nothing but bass trapping in corners for the back of the room which is the live end), dead end/dead end (with both front and rear walls completely treated). Again, if you are going to treat the bottom half of the walls with 1" and/or 2" acoustical insulation, just do that around the back walls too.

Now, these are all general statements. Dennis and Bryan would both tell you that you need to measure your room with an acoustical microphone to map out the problem areas before applying any treatments to make sure that you are treating the exact problems that your exact room has. We are trying to solve unknown room acoustic problems with a broad stroke brush here. My statements are just meant as an approach without measuring your room, but the best results come from an acoustical analysis and treating the specific needs.... however, that costs more money too, thus my general statements.

Oh, and Dennis himself will tell you that every room is different and he won't generally give generic advice because he wants to give accurate advice (which is good), but that requires measuring the sound in a room. Here is an interview from a few days ago with Dennis.

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post #10488 of 10495 Old 10-09-2014, 11:24 AM
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I have a question about bass vibrating the concrete walls around my basement bunker and that transfers the bass out of that room into the room upstairs from it or throughout the entire house (as the concrete walls / brick walls are all interconnected).

My idea is to stick a thin rubber sheet on all walls (those they use for carpet underlay type, about 3mm thick), floor, and ceiling... in my mind, when the bass frequency hits that rubber, much of it's vibrations would be stopped by the rubber and it won't transfer to the concrete...

Am I right? or would i just be wasting my time...?
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post #10489 of 10495 Old 10-09-2014, 11:25 AM
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I have a question about bass vibrating the concrete walls around my basement bunker and that transfers the bass out of that room into the room upstairs from it or throughout the entire house (as the concrete walls / brick walls are all interconnected).

My idea is to stick a thin rubber sheet on all walls (those they use for carpet underlay type, about 3mm thick), floor, and ceiling... in my mind, when the bass frequency hits that rubber, much of it's vibrations would be stopped by the rubber and it won't transfer to the concrete...

Am I right? or would i just be wasting my time...?
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post #10490 of 10495 Old 10-10-2014, 06:38 PM
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Hi everyone. I am completely new to room treatment and currently my room is completely untreated. I'm just not sure where to even start. I've got a Studio EQ mic and have measured the frequency response of the speakers in the room as they are currently positioned. It looks pretty bad so I don't even know where to begin! The room is made of concrete, about 4.1 metres by 4.5 metres, attached to an open kitchen (around 2 metres by 2 metres) and a hallway. The speakers are currently around 0.5 metres out from a corner.

Any advice / starting points would be appreciated.
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post #10491 of 10495 Old 10-14-2014, 05:34 PM
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I am getting close to buttoning everything up and I'm starting to grow more concerned about how the sound is going to behave in this space. One photo shows my screen wall. The other photo shows the opposite end of the room, which will be a traditional bar area.

I am open to comments/suggestions/etc. I just assume make changes, if necessary, to ensure I don't create any "fatal" acoustic conditions.

Room dimensions are 14' x 35'.
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My Theater Build

Equipment List: Epson 6030, Panamorph U480, Oppo-103, SVS PB12-NSD, LSA Statement LCR & surround speakers, Def Tech ProCinema 1000 rears & front wides, DefTech DI5.5R Atmos overheads, Grafik Eye 3106....more to come
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post #10492 of 10495 Old 10-15-2014, 12:36 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
I have a question about bass vibrating the concrete walls around my basement bunker and that transfers the bass out of that room into the room upstairs from it or throughout the entire house (as the concrete walls / brick walls are all interconnected).

My idea is to stick a thin rubber sheet on all walls (those they use for carpet underlay type, about 3mm thick), floor, and ceiling... in my mind, when the bass frequency hits that rubber, much of it's vibrations would be stopped by the rubber and it won't transfer to the concrete...

Am I right? or would i just be wasting my time...?
If you're right, then you've just solved a problem that everyone else before you have gone to great lengths to combat. Does that seem plausible?

Under construction: the Larch theater
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post #10493 of 10495 Old 10-22-2014, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Syllogistic View Post
Hi everyone. I am completely new to room treatment and currently my room is completely untreated. I'm just not sure where to even start. I've got a Studio EQ mic and have measured the frequency response of the speakers in the room as they are currently positioned. It looks pretty bad so I don't even know where to begin! The room is made of concrete, about 4.1 metres by 4.5 metres, attached to an open kitchen (around 2 metres by 2 metres) and a hallway. The speakers are currently around 0.5 metres out from a corner.

Any advice / starting points would be appreciated.
See the following to give you a hand on getting started.
http://www.gikacoustics.com/basics-r...ls-bass-traps/

Glenn Kuras
GIK Acoustics

http://www.gikacoustics.com

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post #10494 of 10495 Old Today, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
I have a question about bass vibrating the concrete walls around my basement bunker and that transfers the bass out of that room into the room upstairs from it or throughout the entire house (as the concrete walls / brick walls are all interconnected).

My idea is to stick a thin rubber sheet on all walls (those they use for carpet underlay type, about 3mm thick), floor, and ceiling... in my mind, when the bass frequency hits that rubber, much of it's vibrations would be stopped by the rubber and it won't transfer to the concrete...

Am I right? or would i just be wasting my time...?
That is a big problem! right here. Since everything is concrete its all reflective and i highly doubt that a think rubber sheet of 3mm thickness could do anything. I would suggest you to look at something like acousticblok or maybe 9mm neoprene. I guess that should work.
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post #10495 of 10495 Old Today, 05:38 PM
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I'm building a theater with an AT screen (Falcon, woven) over 3 Triad Bronze 4" in-walls and was wondering how to treat the screen wall. Don't really want to cover it with insulation; not sure that's necessary. Thinking instead about a thick triple-black velvet, same stuff I will extend out about 3' from the screen on all four walls.

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