Acoustical Treatments Master Thread - Page 401 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12001 of 12008 Old 09-29-2017, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Mpoes12 View Post
Do you feel comfortable that you know how to mix materials and surfaces. It's too hard to give general advice here but if you have more room details and specific questions I can try to answer.

Again I'll mention that I suggest you post the soundproofing bit in the other thread to keep the topics separate. It sounds like you plan to just soundproof the floor and ceiling? If so I think you are missing a lot of important flanking paths. It certainly won't be for nothing but sound can travel through walls, up through the ceiling into the common attic space and into other places. It can travel into the floor. It can also travel through the walls. Being over a garage helps but just doing floor and ceiling probably isn't enough.


Sent from my iPhone with a keyboard that predicts what I mean very poorly

My plan was to encapsulate the entire room with roxul rigid sound absorbing material , and soundproof additionally .


To answer your first question I am not experienced in acoustic materials application nor am I completely up on sound proofing. That being said I do have a very
good understanding of all the variables and materials, just want to ensure I will not over or under design the materials and application necessary .


My first theater ended up reasonably well with the acoustic materials and panels I made, this theater is a new build .


Is this a hobby for you or do you design professionally ? I certainly appreciate all the help and advise , just want to ensure I'm not
imposing if I do ask for suggestions .

Dedicated Theater: Sony VPL VW 675ESB , Panamorph Paladin Anamorphic Lens, Draper TecVision XT1800X Screen, 2.40:1 132" diagonal curved 36FT radius, Anthem 1120 AVR , 7.2.4 Atmos, Panasonic UB900, Oppo 203
Lumagen Pro 4440 , Paradigm Monitor 11 fronts, Monitor 3 Center, Monitor V7 Rear, SA-ADP In-wall Surround, Niles DS-7 In-Ceiling, Subwoofers: Klipsch RW-12 + SVS PC13-Ultra
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post #12002 of 12008 Old 09-30-2017, 03:02 AM
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Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
What I was thinking about doing is when I stud out the side walls , the screen wall and rear I would add rigid Roxul soundproofing insulation everywhere . This room
is going to be a virtual velvet black pit . Will cover everything with with Joanne Royalty Black velvet, essentially making a 100% structural acoustic box.

Is this overkill?
In my opinion, yes, that would be far too much absorption. The room will be overly dead, with no high end, and no reverberant field.

While you certainly could then counteract some of that with reflective materials placed under your velvet (assuming that material was acoustically transparent, which it may not be), I think it makes sense to begin by asking how much of the surface area should be absorbent, vs. diffusive, vs. reflective. Then you know what to start with as your default surface material. The largest of those 3 would be reflective, so why start by eliminating that, then trying to add it back in again? Seems counterproductive to me. Unless you're planning to rely on the Roxul for it's thermal insulating properties as well?
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post #12003 of 12008 Old 09-30-2017, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
My plan was to encapsulate the entire room with roxul rigid sound absorbing material , and soundproof additionally .


To answer your first question I am not experienced in acoustic materials application nor am I completely up on sound proofing. That being said I do have a very
good understanding of all the variables and materials, just want to ensure I will not over or under design the materials and application necessary .


My first theater ended up reasonably well with the acoustic materials and panels I made, this theater is a new build .


Is this a hobby for you or do you design professionally ? I certainly appreciate all the help and advise , just want to ensure I'm not
imposing if I do ask for suggestions .

How do you plan to soundproof?

You don't need to use rigid roxul in the walls. That would be a waste of money. I suggest something much cheaper. In the walls you are just damping resonances so any insulation is equally effective. There is little if any advantage to roxul rigid insulation. Even Safe n' sound isn't really needed, but if it's in your budget it certainly won't hurt.

I consult on acoustics on the side. It is not my main job. I wouldn't be here answering questions if I wasn't willing to. At least so far this side business has been sporadic and commercial. I don't give advice on the forums so that I can sell people services or products. There are others on the forums better equipped to do that.


Sent from my iPhone with a keyboard that predicts what I mean very poorly
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post #12004 of 12008 Old 10-01-2017, 05:01 PM
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In my opinion, yes, that would be far too much absorption. The room will be overly dead, with no high end, and no reverberant field.

While you certainly could then counteract some of that with reflective materials placed under your velvet (assuming that material was acoustically transparent, which it may not be), I think it makes sense to begin by asking how much of the surface area should be absorbent, vs. diffusive, vs. reflective. Then you know what to start with as your default surface material. The largest of those 3 would be reflective, so why start by eliminating that, then trying to add it back in again? Seems counterproductive to me. Unless you're planning to rely on the Roxul for it's thermal insulating properties as well?

Thanks for the reply . Well, I do live in Canada, more insulation is always good.


Actually, the exterior side walls , floor and the screen end wall will be insulated already with R40 . Only the center interior wall will not be insulated already, I plan to use
a double wall and plenty of insulation there as the other end of this second story is our main bedroom separated by a hallway .


Within the theater loft ( sloped and vaulted ceiling) I have to build a knee wall on the sides . I'm going to frame out the sides and end, add Roxul between the studs in about
1/3rd of the spaces leave the rest. I will be able to add or remove easily because the covering will just be velvet panels attached with Velcro strips . Once I'm moved in and all furniture in place, the carpet, stage and speakers , fixtures and so on, THEN I'll fire up the REW ( room EQ wizard ) https://www.roomeqwizard.com/ see how it looks .


I'm more concerned about sound travelling back the floor or through the roof at this point , that's what I have to concentrate on . Within the theater I will have the ability
to add or remove reflective or absorption panels to balance things out.

Dedicated Theater: Sony VPL VW 675ESB , Panamorph Paladin Anamorphic Lens, Draper TecVision XT1800X Screen, 2.40:1 132" diagonal curved 36FT radius, Anthem 1120 AVR , 7.2.4 Atmos, Panasonic UB900, Oppo 203
Lumagen Pro 4440 , Paradigm Monitor 11 fronts, Monitor 3 Center, Monitor V7 Rear, SA-ADP In-wall Surround, Niles DS-7 In-Ceiling, Subwoofers: Klipsch RW-12 + SVS PC13-Ultra
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post #12005 of 12008 Old 10-01-2017, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
I'm going to frame out the sides and end, add Roxul between the studs in about 1/3rd of the spaces leave the rest. I will be able to add or remove easily because the covering will just be velvet panels attached with Velcro strips.
That is a reasonable way to proceed. 1/3 absorption will be much closer to what you wind up needing than 100%. I would simply echo Mpoes when he said that you really don't need Roxul for that. Any inexpensive absorber would work as well, in those locations. Roxul is great because they are semi-rigid formed panels, in a convenient size, and you can easily cover and hang them, etc. But as you are planning, you could also easily move them around, w/o having to deal with nasties like fiberglass fibers. So their reconfigurability may still have some benefit for you, that would justify the additional cost.

My only possible caution would be to make sure that the velvet you plan to cover things with is actually acoustically transparent. Not all are. To the extent the velvet material either absorbs or reflects, it won't make any difference what you have behind it.

Quote:
Once I'm moved in and all furniture in place, the carpet, stage and speakers , fixtures and so on, THEN I'll fire up the REW ( room EQ wizard ) https://www.roomeqwizard.com/ see how it looks.
That sounds like a wise plan. Knowing is always better than guessing.

There is one other opportunity that may be somewhat uniquely available to you, with your plan to essentially be skinning a completely open-framed set of studs. You may be able to mount/suspend some drywall pieces in sections/slices, in such a way that each panel can still move. I.e., is resilient, and not rigidly attached to the studs. This can be an effective way to help tame lower bass resonant frequencies, though it's not often employed outside custom-designed spaces.

Unfortunately, I have no expertise in this area, but wanted to make you aware of it. I think Geddes was a proponent of that methodology (wall loading), so perhaps others here may be able to comment on this.

Last edited by VideoGrabber; 10-01-2017 at 05:35 PM.
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post #12006 of 12008 Old 10-02-2017, 04:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VideoGrabber View Post
That is a reasonable way to proceed. 1/3 absorption will be much closer to what you wind up needing than 100%. I would simply echo Mpoes when he said that you really don't need Roxul for that. Any inexpensive absorber would work as well, in those locations. Roxul is great because they are semi-rigid formed panels, in a convenient size, and you can easily cover and hang them, etc. But as you are planning, you could also easily move them around, w/o having to deal with nasties like fiberglass fibers. So their reconfigurability may still have some benefit for you, that would justify the additional cost.

My only possible caution would be to make sure that the velvet you plan to cover things with is actually acoustically transparent. Not all are. To the extent the velvet material either absorbs or reflects, it won't make any difference what you have behind it.



That sounds like a wise plan. Knowing is always better than guessing.

There is one other opportunity that may be somewhat uniquely available to you, with your plan to essentially be skinning a completely open-framed set of studs. You may be able to mount/suspend some drywall pieces in sections/slices, in such a way that each panel can still move. I.e., is resilient, and not rigidly attached to the studs. This can be an effective way to help tame lower bass resonant frequencies, though it's not often employed outside custom-designed spaces.

Unfortunately, I have no expertise in this area, but wanted to make you aware of it. I think Geddes was a proponent of that methodology (wall loading), so perhaps others here may be able to comment on this.
Thank you for the reply

I had to read a few times to understand . What you are saying is essentially, make a gyproc drum from the framing such that you leave a large section of the normal framing out . The attached gyproc will resonate/absorb the low frequencies.
When you said suspend at first I envisioned free hanging pieces but I believe you meant what I said . I like this concept better, gives some rigidity to the walls behind the black velvet. On the sloped part of the ceiling I could use the
gyproc on frame , roxul or a combo. Now I have to check the black velvet , see what the acoustic characteristics of that are . Next stop the black theater thread .

Dedicated Theater: Sony VPL VW 675ESB , Panamorph Paladin Anamorphic Lens, Draper TecVision XT1800X Screen, 2.40:1 132" diagonal curved 36FT radius, Anthem 1120 AVR , 7.2.4 Atmos, Panasonic UB900, Oppo 203
Lumagen Pro 4440 , Paradigm Monitor 11 fronts, Monitor 3 Center, Monitor V7 Rear, SA-ADP In-wall Surround, Niles DS-7 In-Ceiling, Subwoofers: Klipsch RW-12 + SVS PC13-Ultra
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post #12007 of 12008 Old 10-02-2017, 04:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpoes12 View Post
How do you plan to soundproof?

You don't need to use rigid roxul in the walls. That would be a waste of money. I suggest something much cheaper. In the walls you are just damping resonances so any insulation is equally effective. There is little if any advantage to roxul rigid insulation. Even Safe n' sound isn't really needed, but if it's in your budget it certainly won't hurt.

I consult on acoustics on the side. It is not my main job. I wouldn't be here answering questions if I wasn't willing to. At least so far this side business has been sporadic and commercial. I don't give advice on the forums so that I can sell people services or products. There are others on the forums better equipped to do that.


Sent from my iPhone with a keyboard that predicts what I mean very poorly
Appreciate the feedback

I mentioned in a previous post , couple back what I will do to insulate the home, inside the theater . I will have to add some 4-5' knee walls ,can add acoustic or reflective material within those walls rather than wall mounting acoustic panels . I mentiioned
the trade name Roxul which is generic for insulation from acoustic to fireproofing and just plain old thermal material . Basically, I will use what ever is necessary to make the room acoustically correct , in the process will try to keep the materials within the new build walls instead of hanging panels afterwards .

Maybe we could go to PM for discussion on consult , would rather compensate someone and get the right job done correct as long as you are confident you can do this properly .

Dedicated Theater: Sony VPL VW 675ESB , Panamorph Paladin Anamorphic Lens, Draper TecVision XT1800X Screen, 2.40:1 132" diagonal curved 36FT radius, Anthem 1120 AVR , 7.2.4 Atmos, Panasonic UB900, Oppo 203
Lumagen Pro 4440 , Paradigm Monitor 11 fronts, Monitor 3 Center, Monitor V7 Rear, SA-ADP In-wall Surround, Niles DS-7 In-Ceiling, Subwoofers: Klipsch RW-12 + SVS PC13-Ultra

Last edited by roxiedog13; 10-02-2017 at 04:43 AM.
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post #12008 of 12008 Old Yesterday, 12:34 PM
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Building a dedicated HT in the basement and need a little advice. Here's my general setup:

Room: 25' by 15'
Two rows at 13' and 19' from the screen. Back row up on a 16" riser.
Wired for Atmos 7.2.6 though I will probably only be able to afford an AVR that supports 7.2.4. TBD.
Three identical LCRs and two subs on a stage (10" high???) behind an AT screen within a false screen wall. (Layout of the room attached in an image.)
LCR - Klipsch RP-260F
Subs - TBD
Sides - Klipsch R 5650 S
Rear - Klipsch RP 160M
Atmos in-ceiling - Klipsch CDT-5650 C II


Done a lot of research and know I simply can't afford to do full scale sound proofing nor acoustical treatments. i.e, not doing 2-layer drywall, clips or rails.
But I do plan on doing base traps, floor to ceiling treatments on the front wall behind the speakers, and acoustic panels on the side walls as needed in the theater.

Question: Everyone seems to advocate using either 1"-2" rigid fiberglass boards or 1"-2" Linacoustic Duct Liner to completely cover the front wall behind the speakers. Duct Liner is very expensive. Rigid fiberglass is less but still expensive. Since I want that wall black and will have to cover the insulation with black AT fabric anyway, could I get the same results using Roxul Safe n Sound? I believe the biggest problem would be attaching the Safe n Sound to the wall but if I put it in frames and cover it in AT material (just like the panels I plan on making) wouldn't that work? I'm basing this off a chart I found showing Safe n Sound to be just as good but you all are the experts and I'm looking to you for advice.....

Floor to Ceiling Roxul Safe n Sound panels on the front wall or do I really need the Linacoustic or rigid fiberglass board solution?
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