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post #31 of 291 Old 09-21-2016, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sigma722 View Post
Damn that's exciting.

So what are your final dimensions sounding like? Concrete all around? Dream theater territory for a lot of us
Roughly 30 x 21 (or 22) x 10. (unfinished)

I admit, I was really nervous opening the estimate document. I did a Homer J. Simpson "Woo-hoo!" in my office when I looked at it. LOL.

For anyone who lives in the KC area, here's something interesting that the builder told me... Those 12 ft walls I requested for this room would have only been possible in Olathe. For some reason it's really cost prohibitive or not even allowed in places like OP and Lenexa as the inspection process is really screwy for anyone who wants to do a modification like this. There's like four times as many site visit inspections or something crazy like that. I'm guessing the other cities got burnt on legal issues somewhere along the line.

Here's hoping the modifications to the permitted plan are approved without fanfare. ^_^;

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post #32 of 291 Old 09-21-2016, 11:27 AM
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A build under the garage is a great idea... if I build another home, I'll definitely look into that. You'll definitely have an awesome space to work with now!
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post #33 of 291 Old 09-21-2016, 01:22 PM
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I can't give this thread enough thumbs up. Are you enclosing just about the entire theater? Or will you have the wall that shares a side with the rest of the basement just be drywall?
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post #34 of 291 Old 09-21-2016, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
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I can't give this thread enough thumbs up. Are you enclosing just about the entire theater? Or will you have the wall that shares a side with the rest of the basement just be drywall?
I assumed it was like option 1 I attached here... but I'll ask the builder to clarify. There's advantages to both, but for soundproofing, option 1 wins by a landslide.
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post #35 of 291 Old 09-21-2016, 05:35 PM
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Plus it could double as a panic room.
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post #36 of 291 Old 09-22-2016, 02:26 AM
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That's where I'm leaning, towards the ducted mini-split. You are ahead of me in the knowledge game, so you mind if I ask what you mean by "penetrations in the concrete?" Usually I can visualize, but I'm tripping over this mentally.
Well, if you look at your own "Option 1", you'll see exactly what I was describing...you have a concrete box where you need penetrations through the concrete. These are best done before the monolithic pour, using hollow tubes through the ICFs to create the penetrations for you to run ducts through the concrete wall at the height of the TJIs. You'll also want a penetration for high voltage and a separate one about a foot away for low voltage. You only need standard 2" or 3" PVC pipes for these penetrations. Your contractor will know exactlyy what to do, but with this type of build you REALLY have to have the end plan complete so you know exactly where these things go.



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We're probably going for the traditional corrugated metal, pour, run i-beam underneath. I asked for them to dig an additional 3 feet down for this room vs the rest of the basement. So I have 12 feet from the base slab to the ceiling slab, then I lose a foot to the I-Beam and another foot to the TJI and drywall. That leaves me with about 10 feet for the ceilings. The ICF's were an additional $3k and I couldn't justify another $3,000 for one more foot of ceiling space (They wouldn't require an I-Beam) when the wife is sacrificing her sun room add on for this already. She'd have to give up a couple kitchen upgrades and I'd feel like a dick if I did that to her.
Are you saying the steel beam must run down the middle of the room length-wise (i.e. the 30' long dimension) and then the TJIs will sit underneath and be perpendicular to this beam? If that's the case, it doesn't need to be that way. I'd think the cost of all the steel, the corrugated, etc. would be MORE expensive than pre-cast concrete (Spancrete) set in-place by crane in the span of a few hours, given the difference in labor and materials. Or at least about the same. I guess your contractor has to do what he feels comfortable with. If your steel beams run the theater room width (garage depth), then TJIs can sit parallel to these beams and preserve that extra 1' of height.

HOWEVER, assuming the steel beam is running in the long dimension, you do not need to run TJIs under the steel beam and lose that 12" of ceiling height. Your contractor can do what's called "packing out" the steel beam with wood inside the I-beam pocket on either side. Assuming a theater room width of 22' and with the steel beam being about 1' wide, you can use standard 2x10s cut to size (about 11' long) to span from the SIDE of the steel beam with standard joist hangers to the top of your 11' side walls. This preserves the extra 1' of height you would be losing in your proposed construction method. It also means you are committing yourself to a perimeter bulkhead to bring in and run your HVAC, high voltage, etc. around the room within the confines of your theater shell - which isn't a bad thing. As a point of note, your contractor should hang these 2x10s so they stick out below the steel beam by 1/2" so you can have a completely flat drywall ceiling.

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So there you have it, you just sucked $13,000 out of my wallet. Well done sir! Take a bow. ;-)

(And by that, I mean to say I'm so glad you posted this idea, it will make the rest of the basement so much better!)
I find it remarkably easy to spend other people's money! But in actuality, if livable basement square footage in your area is calculated at $50 per square foot, you've just added $33,000 in home value for just $13,000. The way I see it, I'm at least owed a beer at some point....
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post #37 of 291 Old 09-22-2016, 04:39 AM
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I find it remarkably easy to spend other people's money! But in actuality, if livable basement square footage in your area is calculated at $50 per square foot, you've just added $33,000 in home value for just $13,000. The way I see it, I'm at least owed a beer at some point....
And this also saves a bit of $ on sound-proofing efforts too! Being in KS, if my Wizard of Oz memory serves me correctly, having a bunker like this might be a nice safety feature beyond just a normal basement.

The other increase in cost though... might be more theater chairs, bigger speakers, bigger screen, etc... so, maybe still spend all $33,000 of added value :-)
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post #38 of 291 Old 09-22-2016, 04:16 PM
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Some issues with the bar idea. The first row often suffers substantially in this type of application, but especially so in Atmos theaters. Say the bar is 42" high, with people sitting there, objects may be as high as 5.5'. That requires setting the surround speakers quite high in order for everyone to be able to get full view of them. The reason surround speakers are set lower in atmos rooms is to prevent blending of the surrounds and ceiling speakers to the point where the ceiling speakers sound like just another surround speaker. There are ways to set the speakers higher and get the desired effect, but I would recommend ceiling heights of at least 10 feet to do that; preferably higher...say 11-12 feet. There are several advantages to digging down. Anyway, just food for thought on the bar setups.
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post #39 of 291 Old 09-22-2016, 04:25 PM
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Also, ducted mini's are more expensive (generally speaking) than conventional dedicated HVAC systems.
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post #40 of 291 Old 09-22-2016, 07:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SierraMikeBravo View Post
Some issues with the bar idea. The first row often suffers substantially in this type of application, but especially so in Atmos theaters. Say the bar is 42" high, with people sitting there, objects may be as high as 5.5'. That requires setting the surround speakers quite high in order for everyone to be able to get full view of them. The reason surround speakers are set lower in atmos rooms is to prevent blending of the surrounds and ceiling speakers to the point where the ceiling speakers sound like just another surround speaker. There are ways to set the speakers higher and get the desired effect, but I would recommend ceiling heights of at least 10 feet to do that; preferably higher...say 11-12 feet. There are several advantages to digging down. Anyway, just food for thought on the bar setups.
I always wanted three rows instead of a bar top. That was turning into my first compromise due to it being a bit cramped. But now that the room will be an additional 3.5 feet longer, three rows of seating is back in play.

The ceiling is going to be (roughly) 12 feet tall, (an extra $3k to dig down farther than the default 9) but I'll have an i-beam running down the middle. So I lose a foot there. If I ran my TJI's in the same direction as the i-beam I would have 11' to play with, but I'm trying to sort out how I'd even get them in the room if they were 30 ft long. Thankfully we're paying for a walk out basement, so we'll have that advantage at least.

And of course, all of this isn't quite final yet, we're still doing the back and forth with the builder, and the city will still need to approve the plans. It's going well so far though.

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post #41 of 291 Old 09-22-2016, 07:13 PM
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Actually, 1' depth in the joists is ideal as you can place your Atmos speakers within the plenum itself. In order to do that though, you'll need to place your speakers in the ceiling exactly, and then have your TJI joists placed around them. Meaning, you'll want the room design to be nailed down before approval of the home plans from the city. Had to do this a few times. Worked out well.
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post #42 of 291 Old 09-22-2016, 07:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Also, ducted mini's are more expensive (generally speaking) than conventional dedicated HVAC systems.
That's what I'm finding out. lol.

Wonder if there's a not to complicated way to tie into the existing HVAC without letting too much noise out into the rest of the house. I wonder if I can have that doorway in option one be higher and just sneak them in that way...
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post #43 of 291 Old 09-22-2016, 07:26 PM
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You can do a split system, or zoned. Or, the best way, is to do a dedicated system.
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post #44 of 291 Old 09-22-2016, 07:49 PM
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If I ran my TJI's in the same direction as the i-beam I would have 11' to play with, but I'm trying to sort out how I'd even get them in the room if they were 30 ft long.
You have them on-site and dump them into the room before the steel beams are placed and the corrugated metal is installed, basically entombing the TJIs. This approach would also buy you more time to figure out your plans, including Atmos speaker placement (as per what SierraMikeBravo is saying), since the TJIs are completely non-structural.

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Also, ducted mini's are more expensive (generally speaking) than conventional dedicated HVAC systems.
Traditional systems are cheaper, but the smallest condenser you can buy is 1.5 tons which is WAY too big for just 650 square feet. You could then spend more to get a much better 'standard' system with variable fan speeds, etc. to extend your run times. Since ducted mini splits are already purpose-engineered for small-to-mid rooms, you get the perfect amount of heating, cooling and run times because the unit is sized appropriately for that amount of space.

I know it may be a bitter pill to swallow, but swallow you must....OR....you could get a two-zone standard system with variable air handler and electronic dampers. One zone would be for your theater and the other zone for the rest of your basement. Any excess capacity which shouldn't go to the theater would just be dumped in the main part of the basement.
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post #45 of 291 Old 09-23-2016, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
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You have them on-site and dump them into the room before the steel beams are placed and the corrugated metal is installed, basically entombing the TJIs. This approach would also buy you more time to figure out your plans, including Atmos speaker placement (as per what SierraMikeBravo is saying), since the TJIs are completely non-structural.
Hah. Makes sense. Here's hoping I don't screw up a cut on them after the fact. LOL.

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Traditional systems are cheaper, but the smallest condenser you can buy is 1.5 tons which is WAY too big for just 650 square feet.
So is the problem that they cool things down or heat things up too quickly? Doesn't sound like a problem really, does it? @_@

I'd imagine they'd be easier to service though, right? O_o

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post #46 of 291 Old 09-23-2016, 07:19 PM
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So is the problem that they cool things down or heat things up too quickly? Doesn't sound like a problem really, does it? @_@

I'd imagine they'd be easier to service though, right? O_o
HVAC systems need to be sized just right, not undersized and not oversized. If you go too small, the unit will almost never shut off. If you have an oversized unit, it will short-cycle. Both of these will shorten your system's life expectancy considerably.

You can get a higher end HVAC system which can be zoned, staged and/or has a variable speed fan to attenuate the output so you have the right amount of run time and air circulation.

If it were me I would either purchase one of the nicer two-zone systems with mechanical dampers - one zone for the theater and the other zone for the rest of the basement....OR....get the ducted mini-split for the theater and a traditional unit for the rest of the basement. My vote is for the latter, but maybe I've already spent enough of your money.....
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post #47 of 291 Old 09-25-2016, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
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HVAC systems need to be sized just right, not undersized and not oversized. If you go too small, the unit will almost never shut off. If you have an oversized unit, it will short-cycle. Both of these will shorten your system's life expectancy considerably.

You can get a higher end HVAC system which can be zoned, staged and/or has a variable speed fan to attenuate the output so you have the right amount of run time and air circulation.

If it were me I would either purchase one of the nicer two-zone systems with mechanical dampers - one zone for the theater and the other zone for the rest of the basement....OR....get the ducted mini-split for the theater and a traditional unit for the rest of the basement. My vote is for the latter, but maybe I've already spent enough of your money.....
Thank very much and it all makes sense except... most BTU calculators I've seen say 1 Ton for 400 square feet is a typical rule of thumb. Wouldn't that put a 1.5 ton unit right in the ball park for a 6,600 square cubic room?
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post #48 of 291 Old 09-25-2016, 03:53 PM
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I wonder if being underground makes a difference for the btu requirement.
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post #49 of 291 Old 09-25-2016, 04:10 PM
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You have to calculate the number of bodies in there in addition to the volume. The average BTU's per hour of the human body while sleeping is 500. Calculate that times 8 and that's 4000 BTU's minimum. I usually error on the side on another 1000 BTU's. That would put it at 5000 BTU's for an eight man room. This is without any equipment in the room, and consider that everyone's metabolism is going to factor into the situation while awake. You could hedge on the error by as much as 2000 BTU's. Just depends. We use 2 ton units on average. We have never had an issue.

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post #50 of 291 Old 09-25-2016, 04:16 PM
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I wonder if being underground makes a difference for the btu requirement.
Yes it does, but it adds a level of complexity that is difficult to calculate without an energy audit. R factors of walls, Windows, location of theater in the house relative to insolation, angle of sun, time of year, latitude, vegetation, etc. All play a factor. How much is difficult to ascertain.

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post #51 of 291 Old 09-25-2016, 04:23 PM
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If you are making this your forever house, you might try to figure out a design to keep as much equipment outside of the room. Maybe even a soffit for the projector. It would help with heat and noise floor.

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post #52 of 291 Old 09-25-2016, 08:52 PM
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Thank very much and it all makes sense except... most BTU calculators I've seen say 1 Ton for 400 square feet is a typical rule of thumb. Wouldn't that put a 1.5 ton unit right in the ball park for a 6,600 square cubic room?
Theaters are completely different from normal rooms. They are very tight and highly insulated, so standard heat loss calculations found on those sheets are not applicable. Theaters also hold more people than a standard residential room when all the seats are filled.

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I wonder if being underground makes a difference for the btu requirement.
Everything makes a difference, including being underground.

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You have to calculate the number of bodies in there in addition to the volume. The average BTU's per hour of the human body while sleeping is 500. Calculate that times 8 and that's 4000 BTU's minimum. I usually error on the side on another 1000 BTU's. That would put it at 5000 BTU's for an eight man room. This is without any equipment in the room, and consider that everyone's metabolism is going to factor into the situation while awake. You could hedge on the error by as much as 2000 BTU's. Just depends. We use 2 ton units on average. We have never had an issue.
This number is not accurate. Nominal average for resting male is 356 BTU/hr. and 330 BTU/hr per resting female. Sleeping is a bit less, moving around slightly is a bit more. But for argument's sake, someone sitting in a chair is a nominal 350 BTU per person and there should not be a "hedge on the error by as much as 2000 BTUs (250 BTU per person per hour)". Technically speaking, the amount of skin surface area and muscle mass on that person are the two factors which determine their precise BTU output baseline at rest. And aside from BTUs of cooling, there is the minimum fresh air ventilation requirement of 5-7.5 CFM per person as per ASHRAE, of course.

The projector and lighting are your other two significant heating loads with the assumption your equipment will be located outside the room. Most well-priced projectors are in the 900-1200 BTU/hr. range, so let's call it 1000 BTU. LED bulbs are 3-7 BTUs per bulb per hour; incandescent averages 85 BTU per bulb per hour. If you have 8 males resting in the room with the projector on and lights off as would be typical, you are just under 4000 BTUs all-in. If it is just you and your wife most of the time....that's just 1680 BTUs.

I know this is a lot of information, but here is where the rubber meets the road....you have to be honest with yourself on the average number of people in the room on any given evening or weekend. If you're like most people, it's one or two....maybe three. What happens then if you have a 2+ ton oversized system? That's right...short cycling and a long time between cycles (because of the extreme air tightness and insulation)... which also means the room is not getting fresh air exchanges (assuming a dedicated system). I think you can start to see the problems having a 2+ ton HVAC system for such an incredibly small underground cooling load as the room will normally be used 95% or the time. Only an appropriately sized mini system or a standard system with 2 zones, motorized dampers and a variable speed fan have the capability of giving you sufficient run times with minimum cooling loads AND handle a full room of people. That's why I am suggesting you steer clear of an oversized single zone system.

One final thought - adding an ERV / HRV to your HVAC and running the system fan will go a long way to eliminating the stuffiness of a room between infrequent or too short cooling cycles. I would highly recommend getting an ERV / HRV anyhow because it's the only device which introduces fresh air into the home in a controlled manner.

To offer one more perspective, my basement is just over 1800 square feet with 9' ceilings and uses a 1.5 ton system. I can't imagine how quickly that system would cycle if it only had to cool 1/3 of the area.
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post #53 of 291 Old 09-25-2016, 09:59 PM
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Appreciate you citing that info Sir! Although, I do feel like the numbers you stated are a bit low. The numbers you stated are based on a 2000 calorie diet (which is hard for a lot of people). The USDA actually recommends 2400-3000 calories a day to maintain a healthy body weight. If we say that 3000 calories is an average (although some individuals intake more), then you are closer to to 500 BTU's/hour. The calculations are (3000*3.986)/24=496 BTU's/HR. One other estimate is that 72% of men are overweight according to statistics, so those calculations may actually be just estimates. Further, when you have a room full of people, that's when the rubber meets the road. We are putting more LED's in these days (at least over the past year or so) so that's your only load unless you have numerous subwoofer amplifiers in the room, which is common. If you had just two 750 watt amplifiers in a room (built into sub) then 1watt=3.412 BTU's/HR. Therefore, you have 1500 watts X 3.412 = 5118 BTU's/HR. Now, you're up to a maximum of over 10,000 BTU's/HR. Class D amps produce much less thermal heat though. The projector heat is vented out of the room, and with lasers coming onto the market, it'll be less. You're still at about 4000-5000 BTU's per hour for an average room though, perhaps more. Ducted mini's are great no doubt and I do advocate there use, but we have used dedicated systems with no problems in the past. Trying to calculate what people eat on a given day is a bit difficult. What works for some may not work for others, and it's a bit of a touchy subject when I ask in a theater design interview "just how many calories do you and your wife and your buddies eat each day?". A bit invasive. I hear you, and understand, and really don't disagree with you. We just have to calculate an average, and then exceed as minimums have a tendency to come back on you.

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post #54 of 291 Old 09-25-2016, 11:04 PM
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I just read the average American intakes 3770 calories per day. That's roughly 600 BTU's per hour. Most industrialized nations exceed 3500 calories per day. But that doesn't include wasted food. USDA estimates 2700-3000 is a good average of actual intake. But overall agreed. Run time issues on the AC could be an issue depending on conditions and latent heat issues.
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post #55 of 291 Old 09-26-2016, 05:54 AM
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Being underground definitely will make a difference in BTU requirements... as does construction (2x4, 2x6, ICF, concrete walls), insulation type, number of windows, siding material, direction house faces, etc. There are HVAC calculators, if I recall correctly (I general contracted a house I built in 2006 with ICF), it is a Manual J calculation.

For example, I live in the Cincinnati area, so, south west corner of ohio, and my sizing was 2.5 ton unit for about 4400 square feet (2600 1st floor, 1,800 walk out basement)... vs the image used shows a 5 ton unit for 2601 - 3200 square feet. Below grade definitely matters in the calculation.

I can't say I know whether or not 1.5 tons would be good... but if you find an HVAC company who actually does the appropriate calculations, they should be able to figure it out.

I have a mini-split unit, and at times, it is running opposite of the balance of the house... I don't know much about zoned systems, but not sure if in the winter, one zone can use A/C (let's say a superbowl party, lots of bodies in an enclosed space) and the balance of the house use Heating (let's say a nice 15 degree early February day)... with a mini-split, it is its' own thing, so, can definitely provide A/C in the winter or heat in the summer. To be clear, I am not saying a zoned system can't do this - I am just saying something to check out first. I have found I use the Heater on my minisplit more than my A/C... which I typically will only use if we have a large group (which isn't that often). I forget who it was, but they shared the same thing with me when I was decided between an A/C only unit and a unit that did both heating & air... very glad I went with the one that did both.
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post #56 of 291 Old 09-26-2016, 08:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by SierraMikeBravo View Post
I just read the average American intakes 3770 calories per day. That's roughly 600 BTU's per hour. Most industrialized nations exceed 3500 calories per day. But that doesn't include wasted food. USDA estimates 2700-3000 is a good average of actual intake. But overall agreed. Run time issues on the AC could be an issue depending on conditions and latent heat issues.
You trying to say Americans are fat?
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post #57 of 291 Old 09-26-2016, 07:40 PM
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Appreciate you citing that info Sir! Although, I do feel like the numbers you stated are a bit low. The numbers you stated are based on a 2000 calorie diet (which is hard for a lot of people). The USDA actually recommends 2400-3000 calories a day to maintain a healthy body weight. If we say that 3000 calories is an average (although some individuals intake more), then you are closer to to 500 BTU's/hour. The calculations are (3000*3.986)/24=496 BTU's/HR. One other estimate is that 72% of men are overweight according to statistics, so those calculations may actually be just estimates. Further, when you have a room full of people, that's when the rubber meets the road. We are putting more LED's in these days (at least over the past year or so) so that's your only load unless you have numerous subwoofer amplifiers in the room, which is common. If you had just two 750 watt amplifiers in a room (built into sub) then 1watt=3.412 BTU's/HR. Therefore, you have 1500 watts X 3.412 = 5118 BTU's/HR. Now, you're up to a maximum of over 10,000 BTU's/HR. Class D amps produce much less thermal heat though. The projector heat is vented out of the room, and with lasers coming onto the market, it'll be less. You're still at about 4000-5000 BTU's per hour for an average room though, perhaps more. Ducted mini's are great no doubt and I do advocate there use, but we have used dedicated systems with no problems in the past. Trying to calculate what people eat on a given day is a bit difficult. What works for some may not work for others, and it's a bit of a touchy subject when I ask in a theater design interview "just how many calories do you and your wife and your buddies eat each day?". A bit invasive. I hear you, and understand, and really don't disagree with you. We just have to calculate an average, and then exceed as minimums have a tendency to come back on you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SierraMikeBravo View Post
I just read the average American intakes 3770 calories per day. That's roughly 600 BTU's per hour. Most industrialized nations exceed 3500 calories per day. But that doesn't include wasted food. USDA estimates 2700-3000 is a good average of actual intake. But overall agreed. Run time issues on the AC could be an issue depending on conditions and latent heat issues.
I don't know any other way to say this but directly. How many calories someone eats in a day means absolutely zip. Zero. Zilch. Nada. It only represents potential energy if that fuel is put into the furnace (muscles) when they are being exerted (working). You give out precisely the same amount of BTUs whether you are sitting and eating nothing or on a major junk food binge filled with sugary drinks and carbs. You don't create more BTUs by the type of food you have or are eating.

As I said above, the amount of BTUs a person gives off is in direct correlation to that person's total surface area (their size) and their muscle mass. To be precise, the 356 BTUs for a male is based on someone 5'11" and weighs 240 pounds. The 330 BTU for a female is based on a height of 5'7" and weight of 160 pounds. Muscle mass is estimated as 20-30% of total weight, so reflective of a typical mostly sedentary American lifestyle.

The assumption I was making is subwoofers would be remotely powered from a rack amplifier. But even if they were self-powered, the BTU calculations above are not practical. The sub isn't running at maximum amplifier output for hours on end. Any significant wattage is intermittent at best and would be characterized as temporary bursts. A nominal 100 BTUs is what you could expect per sub....and that's being extremely generous.

I understand your theater rooms might be comfortable, but that's not my point. My point is if the unit is oversized for the room - which it is - then it is impossible for it to not short-cycle. Short cycling reduces expected lifetime of the equipment. I prefer the mini split approach because it gives you very close to the exact cooling capacity needed, cooling requests don't interfere with requests from another zone on the same unit, is quiet and very energy efficient. A two-zone system is the next step up, but introduces a certain amount of complication and expense to work handling the two zones. I don't share this often, but I used to engineer systems for Trane for several years right out of college. The proposal above with an oversized condensing unit to combat overstated real-life heating loads wouldn't pass muster as the recommended unit, accessories or installation. I am happy to share some of my professional training information with you, if you'd like, just let me know.
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Last edited by TMcG; 09-27-2016 at 04:25 AM.
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post #58 of 291 Old 09-26-2016, 08:01 PM
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Hi Tim,


I disagree with you on some points, but sure, I'd welcome a discussion with you! PM, and we can discuss a few points.


Thanks!

Shawn Byrne
CEDIA Certified Professional EST II - HAA, THX.
Theater Design Information and Examples

skbyrne@sbcglobal.net
shawn@questai.com
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post #59 of 291 Old 09-26-2016, 08:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Goddamn nerds. Gotta love 'em.



(And I'm borderline hyper metabolic for what it's worth. I run hot even in the winter. lol)
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post #60 of 291 Old 09-27-2016, 06:18 AM
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I know for a fact that when I drink enough beer, I run a bit "hot", and I'm pretty confident that due to the laws of thermodynamics that if I'm getting hot it means that the room is getting colder, so therefore I have a negative BTU, but only if I'm drinking. In other words, if you invite me over, and serve, everyone will feel more comfortable.

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