AVS Forum banner

Ambesolman's Cleverly Titled Theater Build

9K views 67 replies 11 participants last post by  ambesolman 
#1 · (Edited)
So I thought it was time to start a build thread since I finally have a space for one. This probably will not be a quick process, but hopefully a fun and rewarding one that will not take forever. This post is a bit long, but it's just some background on me so skip ahead if you want...

I've always been a music lover. I grew up with parents that enjoyed having music playing if we were all just hanging out or playing cards, games, etc., mom even played a little guitar[emoji41]

Despite only being 18mo apart, my brother and I have always had very different musical preferences. Therefore, I had to always ensure I possessed a bigger and better radio than he did....My first personal music delivery device was a clock radio, still have it. The display died only a couple of years ago, but the radio still works. Every few years my parents would upgrade our boom boxes, cassette to dbl cassette, to cassette and CD player, etc. though rarely at the same time. One Christmas my brother got a big radio, bigger than what I'd been using. Horror and dread filled me with the sudden epiphany that I would soon be hearing Disney soundtracks blaring from the next room. This audible equivalent of water boarding was instigated within the hour and throughout the next day. I was drowning in misery.

The next day my dad asked if I wanted to come with him to Circuit City. Hearing the crap coming from my brothers room and since any place covered in electronics, gadgets and stereos was up my alley anyway, we went. He said something about maybe we should look for something different for my next stereo and we left with a JVC receiver, 5cd carousel, a pair of big kenwood speakers and a pair of technics speakers. Now that's an upgrade!

I got home, hooked it all up and was in hog heaven. It was my first taste of the better dynamics that bigger speakers allow. Better, clearer and louder, more than enough to drown out my brother's tunes. To this day, he still pines about the single day he had the bigger stereo...

When I was in high school, I was walking around HiFi Buys while getting some speakers installed in my car. A couple of bigger rooms had surround setups with a pj and screen. A salesman put a laser disk on and I was sold. Don't even remember what movie was played but the whole experience burned itself into my brain. I knew at that moment I had to have a HT in my home one day.

A few years later I took the first step and bought a JBL sat/sub 5.1 and it sounded great to me. (The jvc setup was lent to a friend in college and never seen again.) I used it for 7yrs before we moved into our old house and began the modernization process. I upgraded the sub from the 8" to Hsu vtf3 mk3 (still going strong) and then the fronts to Hsu HB-1s. Next was rosenut MA RX8s and center I got for a steal from @reefdiver. Since then I've slowly pieced together a matching 7.1 rx setup with RX1s for surrounds. These will be the speakers used in the ht until I can upgrade, the center I plan to run vertically.

Last summer our next door neighbors told us they were going to try and sell their house. Long story short (too late, I know), we made them an offer the day before their photographer came out and we ended up buying it.

A few days into the process, my neighbor sent me a link with the house pics/virtual tour. I've seen virtual tours before and they've always been a little meh to me from a technological standpoint. The neighbors used something called Matterport. As you can see in some of the pics, this thing is bada$$! It gives you a complete 3D representation of the house that you can manipulate. They even have an app that can be used to walk around in VR if you have the cardboard or whatever. I didn't use it on the house we sold because I didn't think it'd be as impressive with the house empty. Regardless, I think they paid $300 to cover 3000 sqft. I'd highly recommend it and would probably even get it done to my current house if I didn't have it already. It's been incredibly helpful with getting ideas on things to do in the future with our home and can look at it anytime. I wish I could post the link to my house so you could get the full effect, but it lists my address so that's that...



Both houses are ranch style with full basements. Ours was original 1963 with a full unfinished basement. Basically, what we wanted to do to ours was already done next door (updated kitchen, finished basement, etc). Instead of spending years doing upgrades here and there and dealing with all the headaches involved, we decided it'd be better to buy the house and get a 4x bigger back yard for the kids and dog in the process. Took almost 5mo to move out, get the old house fixed up and sold, but were under contract about a week after listing. Not too bad, though paying two mortgages is just as awesome as it sounds.

Enough of the history lesson...





So the new house has a big room in the basement that's about 28x14', ceiling is a little over 8'. I just ripped down the drop ceiling and opened a couple areas in the side of the soffit to see what was up there last weekend. This weekend I opened the rest of the sides of the soffit...My neighbor told me they'd had a rodent problem when they first moved and that they took care of it and hadn't had a problem since. That's good, but I think I found where they'd been living. I'd be surprised if I vacuumed up much less than a half gallon of old mouse turds. Glad I didn't just start yanking that thing down and have it all rain down on me[emoji90]🤢.



There's a few various cables, a water line, gas line and hvac ducts that extend slightly below the joists above. Other than that, it's fairly obstruction free. The next step is to rip out the thin crap paneling covering the walls and see what I'm dealing with there. Ran out of time today so just popped one open. No insulation btw the paneling and cinderblock foundation. This demo keeps getting better...

I'd like to get rid of the soffit and figure out another way to reroute the hvac to give me the most ceiling height. The only spot that I may be unable to delete it completely is the screen wall. The duct actually goes through the cinder block into the concreted crawl space to provide heat/air to the kitchen.





Looking at the screen wall, the right wall with the fireplace is an outside wall. The wall on the left is shared with an unfinished room roughly the same size and is used for storage.





I'd like to route the hvac through there. Shouldn't be that difficult since the whole hvac unit is in the storage room on the opposite end from the screen wall. There's plenty of room around the unit in there, but areas a tech may need to access in the front of it is gained through a set of accordion doors opposite the under stairs closet. I'd like seal that off due to noise when it's running.







The equipment rack could either go in the storage room or in the closet under the stairs. Wherever is goes, I want to have easy access to the back of it.

Then there's those damn support poles...

So if you're still with me, this is where things stand:

Room: roughly 28x14"

Ceiling and walls: hat channels with dd/gg?
Star ceiling would be sweet

Insulation: roxul safe n sound btw rafters? Walls too? Rafters/joists are 9", how many layers? 3 layers of 3" would fill it but do I need that much? One 3" layer would be roughly $1100

Power: needed at screen wall?
Have a spare 30A circuit.
Have 1 or 2 outlets/wall now except screen wall

Lighting: ???

Screen: 135" falcon horizon 4K AT (thanks @beastaudio[emoji1360])

Projector: TBD, Pj mount?

Poles: nothing but floor above 2 of them
Replaceable with a beam? Worth it?

Unfinished room: 36' x 11'10" with maybe 20-25' useable length
Maybe not at all unless poles can be removed. If so, may possibly rotate room 90deg

Fireplace: opening 50x30x26-30"
What to do about it if anything.

Soffit: Eliminate - would have to reroute hvac

Floor: currently laminate on slab
Soft carpet and thick padding.
Radiant heat?

Seating: sofas probably, but maybe ht seats
Enough height for riser?

Speakers: MA rx 7.0, need atmos speakers, but will wire for 6

Subs: 2 DO SI ht18 (Rockbiter 1 and part deux) on inuke 6k dsp. Might add some MBMs near field behind the mlp.

Receiver/Prepro: something with hdmi 2.1 preferably since that'll likely be out by the time I'm at that point

I think my biggest dilemma is how to configure the layout so I know where to start running wires to. Most importantly, another big thing that would really help is to know the best order in which to complete the steps required to finish this thing so I can help avoid unnecessary stress/mistakes. Feel free to ask me anything and thanks in advance for the help!






Sent using Tapatalk cuz the mobile version is still [emoji1361]
 
See less See more
12
#46 ·
Update (finally!)

Finally getting the waterproofing needed for my basement done tomorrow. They’ll be installing a French drain along this outer wall, around the fireplace with the sump pump in the corner to the right of the fireplace under the window.

My plan is to build a room within a room using clips, channel and ddgg. However, I’m kind of at a loss as to the best way to do this because of the fireplace. Framing the walls an inch off the existing walls will already be further out than the brick surrounding the fireplace.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Also, how far out from the existing wall should the sump pump be installed to clear the new framed wall, clips & channels + ddgg?





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#47 ·
Waterproofing is done, though it wasn’t uneventful. So that big black pipe coming down the wall is the drainage for the washer, dishwasher and the kitchen sink/disposal. Apparently, it’s about 70-80% blocked, likely with bits from the disposal. I’m assuming these don’t normally clog unless grease, etc. has been put down there before we moved in 4yrs ago. I learned way back the proper way do dispose of grease so I know it wasn’t from us. How does he know this you may ask? Because they hit it with the jackhammer since it runs under the slab at an “obscure angle”. They had a plumber come out the same day and repair the pipe so all’s well there.

By the pipe in the framed wall I removed (with a hammer in 5min saving me $209) is an outlet. When the guy initially went to move it out of the way, he got shocked and it threw the breaker. Luckily he was ok. But when he went to rest it on top of the fireplace, he said it shot out a fireball and threw several more breakers. At this point, he calls me and tells me all this so I told him I’ll get an electrician out to fix the problems and they can come back and finish once it’s safe. He asked if they could finish using their generator and just leave the power off in the basement. I said that was fine just don’t turn the power back on down there.

So aside from the various electrical issues I’ve known I’d need to deal with soon, now I have this big honking sump pump in the rear corner that will no doubt be in the way of the walls I plan to frame up. Any ideas on the best way to do this while leaving access to the pump?








Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#48 ·
Just going to have to work around it. Check local codes for clearance and egress requirements. We all work with what we have. Very few in here have 'ideal' home theater setups. Compromises all over the place. Just need to accept those and move on. :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: HT Geek
#50 ·
I guess I was looking for more specifics on how to move on…One thought I had was maybe just frame the rear wall just in front of it and have space between it and the stairway wall for access. Though I don’t love the idea of trimming a couple of feet off the length of the room.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#52 · (Edited)
I’ve got several electrical contractors scheduled to come out and give me quotes for getting some things done around the house. With an overloaded fuse box, lots of older (non three prong) outlets, safety issues in the basement and possibly elsewhere, we’ve decided to just bite the bullet and bring the whole house up to code, add some outlets outside and upgrade our power from the pole, maybe an outside disconnect. My dad suggested a possible generator hook up[emoji2373]. Any other electrical items needed or nice to have since I’m doing all this other electrical work? @BIGmouthinDC?

What power and number of circuits should I be sure to have available for for the ht? I plan to run at least 9.4.4 w/4 subs on a pr of inukes/etc, avr, multichannel amp, PlayStation, bluray player, appletv, maybe a hover boss for multiple seats, pj.

I also have a structural engineer coming out as well to quote me a steel beam to replace those support poles. If feasible, then I could reorient the room 90deg giving me more width, but less depth and open other possibilities. Just have to wait and see.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#53 · (Edited)
So got some estimates in for the electrical work and will be doing everything I mentioned except for a whole house generator since that alone would double the price. I should end up with two 20a circuits and two 15a since I can repurpose a 30a that was previously used for a dryer when it was in the basement during a previous occupancy. With the 200a service upgrade from the pole, I shouldn’t have any issues in the power department.

I had an hvac co out today to inspect it. We haven’t had any issues, but the one at our old house went out a few times during the hot months and I never want to go through that again. Turns out that it’s “at the end of life expectancy”hasn’t really been maintained which isn’t shocking. I’ve only just regularly changed the filter and doubt my old neighbor ever did more than that. Other than the home inspection done before buying the house deeming it operable, I didn’t really know anything about the unit since I can’t seem to find the old inspection. It’s 16yrs old, but the outside condenser is only 4yrs old. When I asked what the most important part needing replacement was, he said the capacitor so I had him replace it since it was fairly cheap. He guessed we might get another year or two out of it whether I did the other maintenance on it or not so I opted out. I can get it set up to add a second zone for the same price so I’d rather do that instead. A new 4 ton unit was about half what I’d heard new units go for over the years so may potentially go ahead and replace it depending on what the other estimates look like. However, rerouting/replacing the ductwork to move the main line to the other side of the poles into the storage room costs more than a new unit! That really surprised me, but I’m guessing the vast majority of that is the labor. But damn.

That’ll have be done because I’m pretty sure replacing the poles with a beam isn’t gonna happen. I’ll get a couple more quotes but the one I’ve gotten so far is about 50% more than I expected so, yeah…

I’m really impressed with proposal though. This is the beam design for the 26’ span.



And the plan…




This is a general idea, but specifics for mine are listed below the image.




Replacing the poles would simplify a number of issues that I have to deal with using the room as is such as the window, sump pump, hvac access, the poles themselves and others. Is what it is I guess.

This ht build thread is turning out more like a antique restoration just to get to the point of being able to do anything in the basement.

 
#54 ·
You've got quite a project here, but power to you for keeping it going! My advice, FWIW:

So got some estimates in for the electrical work and will be doing everything I mentioned except for a whole house generator since that alone would double the price. I should end up with two 20a circuits and two 15a since I can repurpose a 30a that was previously used for a dryer when it was in the basement during a previous occupancy. With the 200a service upgrade from the pole, I shouldn’t have any issues in the power department.
That should work well. My HT room has 2x 20 amp circuits dedicated to HT equipment, 1x 20 amp circuit for lighting in the room, and 1x 20 amp circuit dedicated to electrical receptacles in the room and a mini-fridge just outside the room. My setup is overkill, but I'm pleased with how it came out. Generally speaking, I really don't need the 2nd 20 amp circuit to my HT equipment rack.

Now... regarding the generator. I opted to install an enterprise UPS system in my equipment rack. Originally, I wanted 2 of them, but I scaled it back to one. As I see it, if the power goes out for longer than 5 minutes, I'm going to have a whole host of inconveniences to deal with aside from not being able to continue watching a movie or whatever I'm up to at that moment in the HT room. I did consider going with a whole house generator as well, but frankly where I live power outages longer than about 2 minutes are exceptionally rare (and those we do get are rare in and of themselves), so it just didn't make sense to me. Furthermore, as you're likely aware, with a generator you're not going to be able to run everything so you have to pick and choose which systems to maintain power to. Is an HT room truly a priority compared with your fridge, maybe your HVAC, etc.??

I had an hvac co out today to inspect it. We haven’t had any issues, but the one at our old house went out a few times during the hot months and I never want to go through that again. Turns out that it’s “at the end of life expectancy”hasn’t really been maintained which isn’t shocking. I’ve only just regularly changed the filter and doubt my old neighbor ever did more than that. Other than the home inspection done before buying the house deeming it operable, I didn’t really know anything about the unit since I can’t seem to find the old inspection. It’s 16yrs old, but the outside condenser is only 4yrs old. When I asked what the most important part needing replacement was, he said the capacitor so I had him replace it since it was fairly cheap. He guessed we might get another year or two out of it whether I did the other maintenance on it or not so I opted out. I can get it set up to add a second zone for the same price so I’d rather do that instead. A new 4 ton unit was about half what I’d heard new units go for over the years so may potentially go ahead and replace it depending on what the other estimates look like. However, rerouting/replacing the ductwork to move the main line to the other side of the poles into the storage room costs more than a new unit! That really surprised me, but I’m guessing the vast majority of that is the labor. But damn.
Here is where I feel compelled to really get on the soapbox, per se. Next to windows and doors, HVAC companies are the biggest rip-offs in home repair companies, IMHO. Why? Because if your house is 10+ years old, you will nearly always be told your system is on its last leg, no matter what is wrong with it. The way these companies and contractors make the big bucks is by selling people new systems. It's the most efficient balance of revenue to labor (for them). However, it is rare that a homeowner truly needs an entire new system.

All that said, yours - given its age - is at the point where you are more likely to encounter problems such as the evaporator leaking coolant. It's not totally unreasonable to conclude it could make sense to replace the whole system (excluding ductwork), partly for piece of mind. Right now refrigerant has gotten very expensive, and that ought to be another factor to consider. I would imagine your system is using R-22 given its age. That stuff is currently about $30/pound on the wholesale market. Most HVAC companies will charge you 2-4x the wholesale rate to charge a system. It just boils down to the anticipated cost of maintenance vs replacement. If you get a new system, you should be able to get a 10-year parts warranty from the manufacturer.

FYI, there are a few things that frequently go bad in any residential HVAC, and which are simple to replace: the capacitor ($20 part) and condenser fan ($150-200 part) are good examples of typical maintenance items in a unit aged as yours has. They are both simply DIY capable tasks if you're a little bit handy, which you seem to be. :)

If you replace the unit, make sure you fully understand ALL the parts the HVAC company is going to replace. For example, the refrigerant lines and electrical wiring running between the outdoor condenser unit and the interior blower unit. Will those be replaced? What about the return and supply plenums? Do they look like crap, like they are 50 years old like your house?? Just make sure you know what you are getting. There are many ways to cut corners in this industry to save labor and ensure you'll be back at the same customer's home in the near future to make repairs for things an honest and competent technician should have warned you about.

Finally, what type of HVAC ductwork do you have? Rigid metal or flex duct? If it's flex duct, then it has been replaced since your home was built in 1963. If it's rigid metal, then I would venture the reason your quote for moving ductwork is greater than the quote for a new HVAC unit is because the contractor does not want to deal with it (because it's likely a big job, messy, and generally a big P.I.T.A.). Again, if it's a rigid ductwork setup you have now, one option might be to replace a portion of it for your HT room with flex duct. It is possible to join the two system types together (not common, but do-able and not unheard of). Your situation is exactly the type of scenario where that might make sense to consider. Also, try to determine how old the ductwork is either way, so you're aware and take that into consideration in your overall plans.

That’ll have be done because I’m pretty sure replacing the poles with a beam isn’t gonna happen. I’ll get a couple more quotes but the one I’ve gotten so far is about 50% more than I expected so, yeah…

I’m really impressed with proposal though. This is the beam design for the 26’ span....

Replacing the poles would simplify a number of issues that I have to deal with using the room as is such as the window, sump pump, hvac access, the poles themselves and others. Is what it is I guess.
Personally, I would prioritize the beam replacement. As you mentioned, it would go a long way to helping resolve numerous issues. Keep in mind the cost of most construction materials and labor in the U.S. right now is insane, compared with their historical mean. If you're willing to wait another 2-3 years to do this, that will likely change. If not, just accept the fact everything costs more right now and that is not likely to change until the economy implodes again (or at least cools off significantly and supply chains are restored to normalized operations, which ain't happening anytime soon).

One more thing... about your sump pump access. It depends partly on what is code where you live, and partly on common sense. Two important thoughts for you here: 1) you need egress to it; and 2) what could happen to your HT room when there is a storm and the power fails?

When I lived on the east coast, my last home had 2 sump pumps in our basement. What could go wrong??? One summer, while on vacation overseas our area was hit with a tropical storm. Power was knocked out for 36 hours. My basement flooded with 6 inches of water. When the power came back on, the water tripped the circuit breakers in the basement. When I came home, power to my sump pumps had been out for over a week. One of them was also fried by an electrical surge (likely lightning nearby before the power went out). My basement smelled terrible. Rot and mold. Repairs cost $40,000. That was in the early 2000's. Now, double that $ or more.

After that, I jury-rigged a couple of UPS systems to the sump pumps. Now, that's quite frankly a band-aid because they are typically high-amperage devices. However, it was some piece of mind because they normally only activate for a few seconds at a time.

My advice for you is: 1) you need access to it, so frame around it with a door for access somehow; 2) sound proof the area as much as you can, as it will be very annoying when that thing cuts on during a quiet scene in a movie, etc.; 3) think about how you can do your best to prevent it ever flooding your HT room (fingers crossed); and 4) make sure the frame you build around it will still allow someone enough access to replace the pump and clean out the hole when necessary.
 
#56 ·


Finally got around to getting a bunch of measurements to draw up a fairly to scale drawing of the basement area I’m working with.

The few pipes and power lines running across the ceiling should protrude no more than about 2” below the joists. Would those fit within the gap for clips and channel or would I need to lower the ceiling another way to do this?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk?
 
#57 ·
@warwwolf7 answered when I posted in the soundproofing thread, thanks!

Looks like clips and channel give a gap of 1.5” so I’ll remeasure to be sure.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk?
 
#58 ·
I’m meeting with my builder next week to finally get the ball rolling in our basement HT. I’m planning on the usual best methods mentioned throughout avs for the build out like room within a room, clips and channels, ddgg, backer boxes for speakers and lights, etc. I’ll be getting another quote to replace the three support poles with a steel beam as well, but still suspect that will be out of my price range. If so, then I’ll just use the room as is.

In the spirit of soundproofing, I’m thinking that constructing the rear wall just before the sump pump, parallel to the stairs. I’ll lose a couple feet on the length of the room, but I won’t have to figure out how to retain access to it while keeping the soundproof shell intact. I’ll also break up the hearth of the fireplace and seal it up to frame closer to the outer wall.

If the poles stay, and I don’t want to see them, could I frame a wall to incorporate them by leaving spaces in the wall’s bottom plate for the poles since I’ll have clips and channels to support the ddgg that will help hold the wall together? Effectively having separate framed walls between the poles tied together with the drywall if that makes sense.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk?
 
#60 ·
So the thread was started back in 2017 and here we are in 2022. Lol. My kinda build. Gotta pace yourself.[emoji16]
Don’t they say it’s not about reaching the destination, but enjoying the journey? Or something like that. Unfortunately my journey has had me stranded on the side of the road for a few years. Yeah I had big plans, but also a newborn and a 2yr old at the time along with a new job, then the plague hit, plus I had to get the waterproofing done before I could do anything else…you know, that old chestnut. But things are finally heading in the right direction and hopefully starting sooner than later.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk?
 
#61 ·
So after meeting with my builder, I’ve been convinced to do the ht in the storage room instead of the other room. This will save me a lot of money by not having to move the hvac trunk line as well as not having to deal with other issues such as the fireplace, window, leaving access to that drain line and sump pump as far as soundproofing is concerned. The original room slotted to the ht will be converted into a multipurpose family room. Money saved by not moving the trunk line will go towards adding a half bath somewhere in the hallway by the bedrooms.

So this is the room in question, roughly 36 x 13’2” (to the support poles). Some storage space (tbd) will be retained in the area of the hvac unit. I’m not sure where the best place to put the door among many other questions but would like to do solid core communicating doors.

If anyone has ideas or questions on the best use for the space, please chime in.



 
#62 ·
Cross posted from the soundproofing thread.

I had a thought that stacked, dark colored rock on the walls of the theater I want to build would look nice. The idea is that I’d get an acoustic treatment plan for the room, know where the panels would need to be, mark them out and then rock around the panels. This would recess the panels a bit into the wall and potentially give it a cleaner look and save me some space. It would also substantially add to the weight of the walls which I’d think would help with the sound isolation.

I’m planning on a room within a room in the corner of my basement. The interior walls (rear and 1 side wall) would be dbl stud. The front and other side wall would be standard 2x4 1” off the foundation walls. The rock would only be on the rear and side walls up to within a few feet of the screen since I plan to black out the front area with velvet.

Since the rock would need to be installed on cement board, could I use that as my second layer over a first layer of osb? This would leave the front wall and ceiling with ddgg on clips and channels.

Also, would I need clips and channels on the front wall if it’s against a foundation wall?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk?
 
#63 ·
I had a thought that stacked, dark colored rock on the walls of the theater I want to build would look nice. The idea is that I’d get an acoustic treatment plan for the room, know where the panels would need to be, mark them out and then rock around the panels. This would recess the panels a bit into the wall and potentially give it a cleaner look and save me some space.
If you do go ahead with this plan, I would love to see how it turns out. I wanted to do something very similar in our basement, but it would have been kind of like a feature wall in the little reading nook. Stone around the sides, with a large square fabric panel in the middle to kill some of the echo beside a cozy reading chair. Sadly, it didn't make it to the final cut.
 
#65 · (Edited)
So a lot of things have evolved with this theater plan since the last update.

The biggest thing is probably the removal of the support poles and replacing them with a 20’ steel beam that will be recessed in the floor joists. This will open up the room and many other opportunities in the space. We figured that we’d enjoy a much bigger space than a smaller ht and another room that probably wouldn’t get used much because we’d want to be in the theater. It’ll eat up a chunk of our budget, but I think it’ll be worth it. I’ve been getting some great deals on good used equipment to help offset the cost as well.

We’ve enlisted QuestAI to design the theater and they’ve been great to work with. My basement has presented some challenges, but we’ve been working to address or work around them. It’s a fun process that brings to light a lot of things I wouldn’t have thought about ahead of time that should make things run more smoothly once construction starts, hopefully before the end of the year.
 
#66 ·
Floor

Since our house has a history of two flood events (many years ago), we’ve done a lot to address water diversion around the house with new gutters that all extend out away from the house and connect underground and empty out near the low points of our front and back yards. We also put in the French drain and sump pump along the outer wall.

Keeping that goal in mind I wanted to use something to keep the floor off the slab so that there’s a small air gap for the slab to sweat or in case any water did get in, then it could dry out and not ruin floor and everything on it. Theoretically anyway.

I’ve decided to go with Dricore. Looks like it should do the job and should be able to frame on top of it. If not then I’d use horse mats under the framed wall next to it to keep that same air gap. The pad and carpet then go down on top of the dricore.

Would just using horse mats under the whole floor be a better option? Kind of like a Serenity Mat but with an air gap underneath, then plywood, pad and carpet. Way cheaper too.



However, before that can go down, we have to level out the floor. The height at the left wall is 8’3”. The height at the right wall is 8’5” to the bottom of the joists. When it’s done, there will be a 2” concrete lip along that right side of the room all the way from the front to the back wall. This results in a 3” lip through the doorway. After going back and forth about it, we figured a slight slope from there over the rest of the area outside the theater was better than the tripping hazard of a very short step. Surprisingly, this step will only run me around $800. Not cheap, but cheap compared to a lot of other stuff involved in this build.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk?
 
#67 · (Edited)
Cross posted from the triad thread to help organize musings and info.

Thanks for the feedback Craig. Responses below…

craig john said:
Here's a bunch of random thoughts looking at your new plan:



1. I only see one set of Side Surrounds in the current diagram. If you go with 2 sets, will they both be at 90 degrees to the seating? IOW, the front set at 90 degrees to the front row and the rear set at 90 degrees to the rear row?
I was told this was two sets of surrounds in these diagrams. However I’m told the angle for the front pair would be similar for wides if used instead. There was a miscommunication somewhere and wides were not added though we got it straightened out and they’ll be in the next ones.

2. Instead of 2 sets of Side Surrounds, you might consider one set of Bipole Surrounds placed at 120 degrees to the front row for coverage of both rows. That would place the Side Surrounds forward of the rear row, but if those are not "high priority" seats, that may be an acceptable, less expensive, less complicated alternative. Bronze, Silver and Gold series all have bipole surrounds in both in-wall and on-wall configurations.
That’s a good idea.

3. Your diagram appears to show monopole On-Wall speakers for the surrounds. Be aware that there are no monopole Bronze or Silver Satellite ON-Walls. There are only In-Walls, In-rooms and In-Ceilings. Like wise for the Silver LCR's. The only Bronze or Silver Series speakers with On-Wall versions are the Bronze LCR's. The rest of the On-Wall speakers in those series are bipole surrounds.*
The surrounds shown are Radian 5210 and they’d be inwall custom enclosures at ~ 1.5cuft. These are 10” coax with compression tweeters which I know won’t match the triads, but I can get them much cheaper and have always been a stopgap until I could replace them. However, the owner used them for a month or so with some silver LCRs and said they played very well together and he loved the LCRs. I currently have 4 of these available if I want to use them. I know they’re not an ideal match, but they’re great speakers and are mid 90s efficient with custom crossovers for flatter response. Enclosures could be constructed with angled fronts.
I’d prefer all triads, but I have to figure out if they fit in the budget.

4. Wides work best when angled towards the seating. @audioguy used a set of 45 degree baffle In-ceiling Silver Monitors mounted vertically as in-walls in the Wides positions to provide more optimal coverage of the seats from the Wides positions. Another alternative would be to find a way to angle whatever other speakers you might chose inside of a column. Or, my own solution is to mount them on aim-able speaker mounts:





No matter how you accomplish it, having the Wides angled towards the seating provides much better response than having them firing straight across the room, aimed at the Wide speaker on the opposite wall.
Agreed. I plan to have all the speakers aimed at the mlp which is more difficult with the radians.
I can’t swing silver monitors, but what about the silver mini monitors, particularly for the wides?
These, the bronze/silver sat/4 and the silver surrounds all have similar sensitivity and specs, though we can’t see max output for the mini/monitors for direct comparison. But the mini monitors would match the plats almost as well as the monitors, but at a more attainable cost. Then maybe do the silver surrounds between the rows?


4. They only comment I can make is that I "love" my Silver Monitors mated with Plat's. Crossed at 100 Hz, they timbre-match very well with the Plat's and I have not had any issues with the Silver Monitors "keeping up" with the Plat's, SPL wise. I have never heard or seen Plat's used with Bronze Sats or Bronze LCR's, but I would be concerned about their SPL capabilities.
I’m sure they’re fantastic, but they’re also over $4k/pr. Just going by the specs listed, the bronze and silver LCRs should have about the same output than the monitors. Again it’s a guess since peak output isn’t listed for the monitors.

5. The diagram shows the Plat's in a baffle wall. Are these Triad's curved baffle walls, (which IIRC were used by @brolic Beast), or will the baffle wall be custom constructed on site? How big will the screen be? There is something in the diagram that extends from top wall to bottom, placed right in front of the front speakers. Is that whole thing going to be the screen? That would be an 18' wide screen, or about a 250" diagonal screen. Or, will that be a "false wall" with the screen mounted on it?
It’ll be a custom baffle wall, no curves from what I can tell. I’ve also inquired about the width of the L&R since it seems a bit atypical from more baffle walls I’ve seen pics of. They do seem to line up with the atmos channels in the soffits so maybe that has something to do with it?

They suggested a 10’ 2.35:1 screen. Does this seem large enough for an 18’ wide room? Any taller and the rear seats may have issues seeing the bottom of the screen. I’m trying to get more familiar with screen ratios and how the screens are filled when displaying various ratios since this will be my first pj (nx7). From what I’ve gathered so far, a 16x9 can display a full screen 2.35:1 via zoom, but you can’t display a 16x9 on a 2.35:1 without either chopping off something or having black bars at the top/bottom. If I’m wrong please correct me. We watch more 16x9 content so I’m trying to figure out the best approach.

6. I looked at the link in your signature to your "cleverly titled build thread". Clever! :) It shows this diagram:





None of the dimensions of either of those rooms seem to match the dimensions in your new drawing. There appear to be some physical obstacles, (load bearing support posts), to making either of those rooms fit your new drawing. Did you do some modifications? Based on the position of the fireplace in both drawings, it looks like the new space will have a wall built in front of the fireplace and another wall perpendicular to that wall extending to the opposite wall. In that scenario, the theater would extend into the room with the support poles pretty much right in the middle of the front row seating. Did you move them or modify them by adding a larger support beam between the outside posts? Or did you find a new space? Or, am I misunderstanding all this?
The poles will be removed and replaced with a 20’ steel beam that will be recessed higher than the bottom of the floor joists. This pic may help, just ignore everything in the theater. The contractor’ designer was just putting risers, etc. in there without quest’s plans. As you can see, the screen is on the wrong end, etc..






7. In a rectangular sealed room like yours, there is some evidence that subwoofer placements at mid-front and mid-rear wall are superior to having both subs on the front wall. (See Welti's paper on multiple subwoofers, attached.) If you can fit one of the subs on the back mid-wall, you might consider that placement. Of course, that would also require shifting the front sub over and placing it beneath the CC. That front sub would need to be short enough to fit under the CC. What subs are you considering? What is the proposed mounting height of the CC?
I’m using 4 Stereo Integrity HT18 v1. They have them all placed in the baffle wall, two stacked on either side of the CC at the quarter points. I had similar thoughts as you to needing subs somewhere in the rear of the room as well, maybe some balancing subs?

8. One final comment, (and this is one pet-peeve of mine)... The point you've designated as the sweet spot in your system is the armrest between the middle seats of the front row. In a theater, you get exactly one spot where the calibrations for levels and distances will be correct. That is also the spot used as the baseline for aiming of all the speakers. It is the one spot where the imaging and soundstage, especially the phantom imaging, will come together and be the most appropriate and noticeable. In your plan, that spot will be an armrest where, (hopefully), no one will be sitting. IOW, the "best seat in the house" won't be a seat. There is no seat in your theater plan where the phantom imaging will be correctly set up.

There are two ways to address this: 1. Use an odd number of seats per row, which allows the middle seat to be placed in the middle; or, 2. Use an even number of seats, but offset them so one of the middle seats is in the middle where the sweet spot would be. This second solution is the one I use in my theater. I have one row of 4 seats. The seating is shifted so the 2nd seat from the left is in the middle, directly in front of the middle of the screen and the CC. This is my sweet spot and the point I use for all calibrations for levels and distances, and the spot all my speakers are aimed at. It is the only seat in my theater that provides optimal and correct phantom imaging, and it is MY seat, (or the one I give up to guests who care about optimal imaging).

*Just FYI for you and others reading along, there is a forum dedicated to Triad speakers. It's called the Triad_Speakers_Forum dot Com, (with the "underscores" removed and all one word), created and moderated by our very own Dawn, and it has every data sheet for every speaker Triad makes, which is more than can be said for Triad's own website. The moderator has done a superb job of organizing everything all in one place. I'm not sure if we're allowed to link it here directly, but you can get there with the above info.

Craig
I’m with you on having a centered mlp, just not sure how to best approach it. The seats shown were just put in there because we haven’t decided what to do about seating yet. I’d love to get a bunch of recliners, but our boys are still little (7 & 5) and like to cuddle up on the couch with us so we may get a couch for the front and then swap it out after they’re older. Advise is always welcome!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk?
 
#68 ·
Con’t

ambesolman said:
I was told this was two sets of surrounds in these diagrams. However I’m told the angle for the front pair would be similar for wides if used instead. There was a miscommunication somewhere and wides were not added though we got it straightened out and they’ll be in the next ones.
This needs to be clarified and confirmed. If you're going to be using Wides, the position of the front set of "surround" speakers looks to be too far back, (just eyeballing it on the diagram). Wides should be placed per Dolby's recommendations:


Rectangle Slope Plot Triangle Font


In your case, your L/R's are at 30 degrees. +20 degrees for the Wides would place them at 50 degrees, +/- 5 degrees.

Agreed. I plan to have all the speakers aimed at the mlp which is more difficult with the radians.
I can’t swing silver monitors, but what about the silver mini monitors, particularly for the wides?
These, the bronze/silver sat/4 and the silver surrounds all have similar sensitivity and specs, though we can’t see max output for the mini/monitors for direct comparison. But the mini monitors would match the plats almost as well as the monitors, but at a more attainable cost. Then maybe do the silver surrounds between the rows?
We can get a rough estimate of the max output of the Silver Mini Monitors based on other specs using this SPL calculator:
SPL Calculator
Entering 87 dB sensitivity, 125 watts, and 2.75 meters, (9.0 feet) we get a max SPL of 102 dB at your seat. However, realize that 102 dB would be the absolute bleeding edge of the output and we have no measurements available that describe distortion or compression by SPL. I would be very hesitant to drive those speakers that loud. In fact, I would say that 6 dB less output would be the max I would ever send those speakers, so 96 dB. Your Plat's will hit those levels without breaking a sweat. The Silver Mini Monitors, probably not. I am not going to go on record as saying those speakers will work fine with the Plat's because, ONCE AGAIN, Triad has not given us the information we need to make the correct decisions. The best I can say is: Use them at your peril.

The surrounds shown are Radian 5210 and they’d be inwall custom enclosures at ~ 1.5cuft. These are 10” coax with compression tweeters which I know won’t match the triads, but I can get them much cheaper and have always been a stopgap until I could replace them. However, the owner used them for a month or so with some silver LCRs and said they played very well together and he loved the LCRs. I currently have 4 of these available if I want to use them. I know they’re not an ideal match, but they’re great speakers and are mid 90s efficient with custom crossovers for flatter response. Enclosures could be constructed with angled fronts.
I’d prefer all triads, but I have to figure out if they fit in the budget.
Those seem like a better match in terms of SPL capability, but use the calculator above to verify. However, a 1.5 cuft. enclosure seems small for a 10" woofer. I would verify that enclosure size with Radian to be sure. That said, I can't speak to the potential timbre match of those speakers to the Plat's. IMO, and IME, the timbre match between the Front speakers and the Wide speakers is equally as important as the timbre match of the front speakers themselves. At a minimum, I would seek out some FR measurements of the Radians to ensure they are at least a "neutral" speaker.

It’ll be a custom baffle wall, no curves from what I can tell. I’ve also inquired about the width of the L&R since it seems a bit atypical from more baffle walls I’ve seen pics of. They do seem to line up with the atmos channels in the soffits so maybe that has something to do with it?
I like the fact that the baffle wall toe's in the L/R speakers. I suggest the angles of the side baffles be at the correct angle to aim the L/R's directly at the LP. But again, this comes back to the fact that there is no seat in the optimal central LP. It's almost an exercise in futility to aim the speakers at the central armrest.

In terms of lining up the Atmos speakers with the L/R speakers, that is misinformation in the Dolby consumer literature. The "Studio" document I linked previously recommends using the angles to the LP instead. Here's that recommendation:


Font Parallel Rectangle Diagram Slope


The recommended angles are 45 degrees front/back and 45 degrees left/right. That would move your Atmos speakers out of your soffits, but those are the "recommended" angles. Also, your soffits are lower than the rest of the ceiling and the "elevation" of your Atmos speakers will be too shallow:


Product Rectangle Font Parallel Slope


Ask your designer to calculate the angles in your current plan. I suspect they are too wide and less than 30 degrees elevation, which would place them outside the spec. If you do decide to keep them there, it will be essential to use speakers that can be aimed at the listening position if you want any kind of useful Atmos effect. In that case, you might consider small bookshelf speakers suspended from the ceiling in those positions. Arendal makes a small bookshelf speaker with a very smooth, neutral response and high SPL capability that "should" mate well with Triad speakers:
Arendal 1961 Bookshelf Speaker Review
Arendal 1961 Review
www.erinsaudiocorner.com
arendalsound.com

1961 Bookshelf

arendalsound.com
arendalsound.com
They suggested a 10’ 2.35:1 screen. Does this seem large enough for an 18’ wide room? Any taller and the rear seats may have issues seeing the bottom of the screen. I’m trying to get more familiar with screen ratios and how the screens are filled when displaying various ratios since this will be my first pj (nx7). From what I’ve gathered so far, a 16x9 can display a full screen 2.35:1 via zoom, but you can’t display a 16x9 on a 2.35:1 without either chopping off something or having black bars at the top/bottom. If I’m wrong please correct me. We watch more 16x9 content so I’m trying to figure out the best approach.
The screen size and placement is the very first decision you want to make about your theater. Everything else in a Home Theater is based off the size and placement of the screen. Speaker placements, seating distances, front row seating heights and rear row riser heights, and literally everything else in the theater are predicated on comfortable viewing heights and immersive viewing angles. The screen size and placement should be determined before any other thing is decided. Since video is off-topic in the Triad speaker forum, I am going to refer you to Carlton Bale's Home Theater Calculator, which can help you calculate screen size, viewing angles, minimum and maximum viewing distances, riser heights and pretty much everything you need to design your video system.
Home Theater Calculator: Viewing Distance, Screen Size – Carlton Bale .com
There is also a thread specifically for the JVC projectors of that generation:
www.avsforum.com

Official JVC RS3000/NX9 - JVC RS2000/NX7/N7 - JVC...
JVC PROJECTORS AND ACCESSORIES DOWNLOADS | USER MANUAL, AUTO-CALIBRATION SOFTWARE & FIRMWARE UPDATES: Support Information & Download RECOMMENDED 3D GLASSES = XPAND-X105-RF-X1 Projectors JVC Pro Product Category Page...
www.avsforum.com
www.avsforum.com
It's a huge thread, but I'm sure your questions have been asked and answered in there more than once. (I have an RS2000 and use that thread as a resource all the time.)

Also, the Screens forum has a vast wealth of information on screen sizes and aspect ratios.
www.avsforum.com

Screens
Screen questions and answers area for both manufactured and DIY screens.
www.avsforum.com
www.avsforum.com
Since you'll be using an Acoustically Transparent screen, you may want to review this thread, which a review and measurements of all the most common AT screen materials.
www.avsforum.com

[Updated 10/21/21] 31 Acoustically Transparent Screen...
[10/21/21 Update] Thank you to those that have followed along and have given such incredible feedback. Below is my updated and much improved results. More materials were added and a couple were removed. I believe many will find these results much more thorough. If you would like to jump to the...
www.avsforum.com
www.avsforum.com
One other consideration would be to place your L/R speakers closer together and behind the AT screen. That would allow you to use a larger 2.35:1 screen and still stay within the recommended 22 to 30 degree L/R speaker angles. A narrower front speaker placement can be compensated by the Wide speakers, re-expanding the front soundstage back even wider. Think about that and see if there is any benefit to that suggestion.

The poles will be removed and replaced with a 20’ steel beam that will be recessed higher than the bottom of the floor joists. This pic may help, just ignore everything in the theater. The contractor’ designer was just putting risers, etc. in there without quest’s plans. As you can see, the screen is on the wrong end, etc..


That's a great idea and can certainly work, but that kind of modification is not inexpensive. Nonetheless, if you're paying someone to do the design work and draw up plans, they should be correct to the finest details. Seems like your designer has some work to do.

I’m using 4 Stereo Integrity HT18 v1. They have them all placed in the baffle wall, two stacked on either side of the CC at the quarter points. I had similar thoughts as you to needing subs somewhere in the rear of the room as well, maybe some balancing subs?
I linked Welti's paper previously because your room has the same characteristics as the room Welti modeled. Oddly shaped or non-rectangular rooms, and/or non-sealed rooms with opeings to other spaces, don't always work well with Welti's recommendations. But your room fits the criteria, rectangular and sealed. Therefore Welti's conclusions apply to your room:


Rectangle Font Parallel Screenshot Number


The only one of those configurations that can really work in your room is the first one, subwoofers at 2 wall midpoints. The one potential issue is the front wall placement. You would not want to stack the subs in the middle of the front wall because that is where the CC needs to go. However, you could co-locate them side by side on the front wall. Co-location will cause them to "mutually couple" and propagate as if they were one sub with the acoustic center in the middle of the two. Of course, they'll still need to be short enough to allow the CC to be mounted at the correct height. What are the dimensions of your subs?

I’m with you on having a centered mlp, just not sure how to best approach it. The seats shown were just put in there because we haven’t decided what to do about seating yet. I’d love to get a bunch of recliners, but our boys are still little (7 & 5) and like to cuddle up on the couch with us so we may get a couch for the front and then swap it out after they’re older. Advise is always welcome!
The easiest solution to getting a seat in the sweet spot is to use an odd number of seats, which gives you a middle seat that can be placed in the middle. If 3 seats per row is not enough seats, you could use 5 seats per row. To make that work, you may need to look for narrow seats, and then remove some of the armrests. Or, you may have hit on the best solution for you... a couch in the front row. If that works for your family, that is your solution.

One other advantage of a couch that most people don't even think about is that a couch likely won't have a seatback as tall as your garden variety HT chairs. I see so many theaters with tall-backed HT chairs... so tall that the seatbacks actually block the sound from any speakers "behind" the listener. Here's one example, but it applies to a large number of HT chairs.





Sitting in a chair like this, the ears will be several inches below the top of the seatback, (unless you're REALLY tall). We see people all the time in the Speaker forum saying that rear surrounds and Atmos speakers "don't do much, so they don't matter". Well, of course... if your seatback is blocking the sound from those speakers, they "won't do much". The "problem" is the seatback, not the sound from the speakers or even a lack of content in those speakers. A couch with a lower seatback solves that problem, (unless you're laying down on the couch, in which case the problem will be just as bad or worse).

Your room definitely has the potential to be a spectacular Home Theater space. Some attention to the details will take it over the finish line. Good luck and enjoy the process!
@CraigJohn
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top