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post #181 of 275 Old 02-14-2004, 12:24 PM
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Uugh, Cardas and his golden ratio stuff. Very scientific explanations how everything gets back to the "golden ratio" - but no science as to why the "golden ratio" in the first place. And I speak as somone who has purchased the $$$$ Cardas cables back in my audiophile days before I learned that audiophile and acoustic engineering are entirely different pursuits (myth vs. science)

Terry has on his website a ratio calculator that gets you in the good ratios and avoids the bad ratios based on Walker's BBC research. Just know if you are in the bad ratios you may have more tuning work to do, thus it would be nice to change your room if you can - but anyways a good ratio can be just as bad with poor seat/sub locations, and bad treatment/EQ.
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post #182 of 275 Old 02-14-2004, 12:27 PM
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Now if I was really smart - I would get someone to post my room acoustics homework for me and get Terry and Dennis to argue about it until they do my homework for me!
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post #183 of 275 Old 02-14-2004, 12:57 PM
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krasmuzik, re Cardas

I should have been clearer.
It's not my favourite room.
I'm not fond of splayed walls.
The only place I've ever seen golden ratios is at that website, therefore they're insufficiently popular to consider. There's lots of other much more popular and analized rectangular ratios out there, and modal spreadsheets, and RPG's RoomOptimizer.
The thing that was cute about that room is that if one has decided that splaying the walls is a good idea, then why not do ALL of them !

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post #184 of 275 Old 02-15-2004, 07:41 AM
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Bob,

> Everest says "... shifts of 5% or more are needed to avoid the effects of degeneracies." <

Yes, I understand that full well. Maybe I misunderstood Dennis's comment?

--Ethan

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post #185 of 275 Old 02-17-2004, 07:56 AM - Thread Starter
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First off...I do want to thank everyone for the great information you have all been providing me. I am trying to soak up as much of it as I can.

As to the room length...I can probably open my length up to as much as 20' (good round number as the dricore comes in 2ft squares). I'll have to check if that leaves me enough room in the rest of my basement though. Seems like it would be a lot of wasted space behind the sitting position (around 8 ft from head position to the wall). I guess the question then is it worth the increase in cost and reduction of usable space for the rest of my basement.... Sounds like there is some question as to how much it would buy me...
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post #186 of 275 Old 02-17-2004, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
The only modes that matter, are those that are involved in the transfer of sound energy from the loudspeakers to the listener. ---Floyd Toole
Well, yeah. Rather fits the definition of sound doesn't it? If no one is in the forest, and a tree falls ......

But, to carry his sentiments further. Room modes just are. It would be nice to have all the modes equally excited, not audible, perfectly distributed, blah, blah. Sorry, that's not going to happen. You'll have modes, period. Rather you have one, five or ten, the solution set available is still the same. Move the seats, move the speakers, absorb, equalize, or turn off the amp. As I've noted several times, the spreadsheet calculators are interesting but (a) don't tell you all the information you need to know; and, (b) cause alot of arm waving and draw time and attention away from equally (if not more so) problematic (and solvable) acoustic issues during the design. Build the room. Build with some flexibility, measure the room and then fix the problem(s) you really have. Ok, so you're left with a triple coincident mode. So either fix it or have someone fix it for you. That's a far better choice than (a) no room at all; or, (b) wasting a month fretting about it at the expense of forgetting about the long list of other issues.

Layout your room to meet *your* needs of space, seating, picture size, budget, and the like and then move ahead.

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post #187 of 275 Old 02-17-2004, 08:44 AM
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I would think you would want a good amount of space behind you. I thought the space would help the sound, allow for rear speakers (7.1 set-up), and make greater volume for the room to help the bass situation.

I am sure that last one will start another round of debate between Dennis, Terry and Ethan:D .

Dave
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post #188 of 275 Old 02-17-2004, 09:30 AM
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Dave,

> I would think you would want a good amount of space behind you. <

Yes, that's what I think too.

> I am sure that last one will start another round of debate between Dennis, Terry and Ethan:D <

Not at all!

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post #189 of 275 Old 02-17-2004, 10:03 AM
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Ethan,

Please don't get me wrong - when you guys write, agreeing and disagreeing, we are all benefiting from listening in. At least that's the way I feel.

Dave
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post #190 of 275 Old 02-17-2004, 10:31 AM
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Dave,

I couldn't agree more. I've learned a lot from both of those guys!

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post #191 of 275 Old 02-17-2004, 10:43 AM
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Dennis Erskine
Quote:
"The only modes that matter, are those that are involved in the transfer of sound energy from the loudspeakers to the listener. ---Floyd Toole" Well, yeah. Rather fits the definition of sound doesn't it? If no one is in the forest, and a tree falls
I believe that on page 9 Dr Floyd Toole's comment was referring to the idea that modes are computed assuming the speaker is in a corner on the floor, and the microphone is in the opposite corner at the ceiling. Most people don't have thier center front speakers in a corner, nor do they listen with their heads glued to the ceiling. i.e it's not so much the definition of sound, but a question of speaker and listener placement.

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post #192 of 275 Old 02-17-2004, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ethan Winer
Dave,

I couldn't agree more. I've learned a lot from both of those guys!

--Ethan
I appreciate these discussions, and learn from them as well. There's no better way to understand something than to try to explain it to someone else. You pretty quickly discover any holes or logical inconsistencies.

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post #193 of 275 Old 02-17-2004, 11:19 AM
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Terry: I concur. By explaining things into the light of day, one not only discovers whether one understands something well enough to explain it, but also discovers others opinions and scientifically proven facts on the topic. The latter of which is particularly useful when my beliefs turn out to be actually backwards. :eek:

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post #194 of 275 Old 02-17-2004, 11:36 AM - Thread Starter
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I'll take a look tonight to see if the extra space is an option. If nothing else, it would give me the flexibility to add some stadium seating later :)
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post #195 of 275 Old 02-17-2004, 01:21 PM
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I meant to be commenting on Floyd's comment that modes which occur where no ears are located are of no concern.

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post #196 of 275 Old 02-17-2004, 01:23 PM
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I agree about the discussions...it causes one to dust off pockets of information. I've learned more about physics and flying from teaching than through other experiences.

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post #197 of 275 Old 02-17-2004, 05:30 PM - Thread Starter
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not that i don't want to hear more on the room size (if people have anything more to add)...but i wanted to go back to the room treatments for a minute. Is there a preference as to how close the cloth has to be to the absorber? Meaning, should the cloth be right against it...does it matter if there is a little air gap...should there be an air gap...etc?
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post #198 of 275 Old 02-17-2004, 05:52 PM
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cloth may be against the absorber.

An amateur built the Ark. Titanic was built by professionals. Of course Noah took a little advice.
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post #199 of 275 Old 02-18-2004, 04:51 AM - Thread Starter
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I guess I should specify where i was coming from...I assume i will have to make a frame for the rock wool. I was just wondering how carefull i need to be about the spacing between the cloth and the rock wool.

I have also heard that the white polyseter batting could be put in the middle if need be, without really affecting the absorbtion.
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post #200 of 275 Old 02-18-2004, 04:51 AM - Thread Starter
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I guess I should specify where i was coming from...I assume i will have to make a frame for the rock wool. I was just wondering how carefull i need to be about the spacing between the cloth and the rock wool.

I have also heard that the white polyseter batting could be put in the middle if need be, without really affecting the absorbtion.
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post #201 of 275 Old 02-18-2004, 08:00 AM - Thread Starter
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I found a web page that has the description and images for the staggered wall design and the double wall.

I think based on cost and ease of construction (i may need to install a removable panel into one wall, behind the projector, the staggered with one layer of drywall on the inside might be my best option. I will drywall the outside later. if it isn't enough sound protection from my heater, then i can double drywall the outside.

I guess I could always mix it up too...put staggered on two walls and double on a third...the fourth wall is against the concrete....
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post #202 of 275 Old 02-26-2004, 05:07 AM
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If my basement is oversized for a home theater, and I planned on putting the HT in a corner (using 2 walls), is there a definitive advantage to putting up 2 new walls to completely surround the theater, or would I be alright using two curtains to complete the enclosure?

I hear a lot about sound reflections, and I figured that curtains wouldn't reflect sound as easily as a wall. Also, I was hoping to draw back the curtain to watch TV and movies while playing billiards or working out, and solid walls would make this impractical.

I'd appreciate straightforward advice. How much sound quality would I lose by going with curtains? Is there a specific type of curtain (or similarly moveable barrier) that would allow the sound to stay at a decent quality level?

Edit: I'm asking this because most of the 100"+ projection theaters I have seen on this forum use 4 solid walls.
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post #203 of 275 Old 02-26-2004, 05:26 AM
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Heavy curtains (really thick velour) 100% longer than the linear distance they cover so they have lots of loose folds, make a pretty effective sound absorber. They will significantly reduce reverberation that would otherwise be caused by walls of your basement. They won't isolation sound to the outer area, but you probably won't be shooting pool at the same time as watching movies.

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post #204 of 275 Old 02-26-2004, 09:00 AM
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Terry:
Thanks for the feedback. Two items:

1. Please provide specifications for the fabric type (exp. I have never heard of "velour"). For example, I'd like the specs so I can walk into Home Depot or shop online and know exactly what constitutes "really thick velour."

2. Are there recommended HT room dimensions when going with 2 curtains? I plan on doing a 100-120" screen (depending on the ceiling height) in a huge square basement. The ceiling will be between 7 and 9 feet high.
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post #205 of 275 Old 02-26-2004, 02:25 PM
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"Velour," from dictionary.com:

1. A closely napped fabric resembling velvet, used chiefly for clothing and upholstery.
2. A felt resembling velvet, used in making hats.


I may be wrong, but I doubt if Home Depot carries it. By thick I mean at least 16 oz., preferably more than 20 oz.

Here's where I get mine:
http://www.gastage.com/velour.html

As for dimensions, you've got a lot of flexibility. Even heavy velour will be pretty acoustically transparent at subwoofer frequencies. So the dimensions that your subwoofer "sees" are essentially those of your unpartitioned room.

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post #206 of 275 Old 02-26-2004, 02:40 PM
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Terry:
Excessively educational. Thank you.
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post #207 of 275 Old 03-12-2004, 03:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi all...long time no talk. I went looking at fabrics today. I found some burlap. I remember hearing that this is really good to use because it lets most of the air in. Not sure if I like the look of it though. I'm also affraid it will let most of the color of the insulation behind it seap through.

I also found some monk cloth. It's only a tad more expensive. It seems to be pretty open to letting air through, just not as much as the burlap. has anyone used this before? Or have any other suggestions?

jay
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post #208 of 275 Old 03-13-2004, 09:55 AM
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Jay,

Any decent fabric store will have died burlap, and some of the colors are pretty nice. You can use thin batting under the burlap to hide the yellow fiberglass.

I'll also mention that fabric over an absorber panel does not need to be acoustically transparent. Almost any soft fabric that's not shiny and reflective will work fine.

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post #209 of 275 Old 03-13-2004, 12:35 PM
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I haven't read this entire thread, so I apologize if this option was discussed for a home theater in a basement.
In my basement, in order to tame reflections, I simply glued commercial grade cheap carpet to the concrete walls. I have a reasonably high end stereo system sharing the space,so side wall reflections had to be eliminated. I've been very pleased with the results. I got the idea from being in music studios that had similar material on walls to deaden sound for recording. It's a lot easier than walls, and the carpet was probably around $5 a yard
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post #210 of 275 Old 03-13-2004, 04:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ethan Winer
Jay,

I'll also mention that fabric over an absorber panel does not need to be acoustically transparent. Almost any soft fabric that's not shiny and reflective will work fine.

--Ethan
based on this....I would guess either fabric that i found should suite my needs nicely....
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