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post #91 of 1332 Old 10-19-2004, 11:37 PM
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Thanks Brian.

What exactly will UL be testing for?

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Frank
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post #92 of 1332 Old 10-20-2004, 04:19 AM
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Green Glue is indeed classified as "Green" by the Green Building Council.

www.usgbc.org

Adhesives with a VOC less than 200g/l qualify as "Green" and Green Glue is under 20g/l.

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post #93 of 1332 Old 10-21-2004, 01:46 PM
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Maybe a silly question. Are screws needed on second drywall layer? or just enough screws needed to hold the drywall in place while glue cures?

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post #94 of 1332 Old 10-21-2004, 01:50 PM
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Hi Ho,

That's not a silly question at all! You want to secure the first and second layers with screws. Thanks for the question.

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post #95 of 1332 Old 10-21-2004, 02:39 PM
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I would ask Ted or Brian directly (as I am now very, very interested in this product), but others may benefit as well...so I'll ask here. Anyone else who has familiarity, please chime in as well.

1) Staggered Drywall-Do you recommend the common approach of staggered and sealed layers of drywall (i.e. seams don't overlap other seems exactly, each layer is taped, caulked, etc.), or is it better to sandwich individual drywall sheet over another sheet in a flush manner, or does it not matter?

2) The Sirens' Song-The allure of NOT having to reframe a room inside a room to get good isolation results is truly a sirens' song for me. This would leave me with significantly more finished room in my existing 15'x21'x9' room, as well as decrease my labor costs (i.e. my time) greatly (not to mention material costs). Is it silly of me to hope that using this product applied at 100% coverage with new drywall over the existing, painted drywall and ceiling may approach the isolation provided by room inside a room? Sounds to good to be true, but I am hoping. As an example, if I measure 75 dB of sound pressure in the room (which is currently my media room, soon to be converted to dedicated home theater room) from a typical musical source (i.e. lows, mids, and highs), I maintain about 73 dB of pressure, seemingly ALL from about 400 hz or less, in the master bedroom above. This "low frequency concert" does not bode well for WAF. I need to lower this to livable (i.e. sleepable) levels if I am to succeed in my sound isolation endeavors. Please address this issue for me if possible. I realize room in a room AND GG would be probably better, but help me out here.

3) Insulation-Related to number 2 above, if I were to go the route of new drywall over old with GG in between, should I cut holes strategically in the existing drywall to fill cavities with batting or other insulation, and then patch the holes before applying GG and new layer?

4) Rigid Coupling-By now you see I am no expert, but it seems to me that firmly attaching both layers of drywall to the existing studs with drywall screws would negatively affect the isolation by providing tightly coupled escape routes for vibrations. How is this countered by GG? Or, am I way off base here?

5) Peaks and Valleys-Lastly, and this is just to satisfy my overactive curiosity, after the toweled application of GG, does applying the outer sheet (in my case, drywall) leave air pockets in the trowel valleys of the wet green glue, or does it press the glue into a normalized, solid layer?

Thanks in advance. I hope answers to these questions will be useful to others here as well. I'm looking forward to ordering some of your new product in the next few weeks. I think I hear the sirens singing now

Bill~
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post #96 of 1332 Old 10-21-2004, 03:29 PM
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The low frequency sound level only drops from 75 to 73 db when traveling upstairs?! How are you measuring that? It's enough to make me nervous about my project.

Can you measure again with either pink noise or sine waves at various frequencies? I would love to see before and after numbers, even if they are from a typical room instead of real lab measurements..and I'll bet a lot of other folks would be interested too.

Thanks

Ken
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post #97 of 1332 Old 10-21-2004, 09:54 PM
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In screwing the two drywall layers how many screws would you recommend on the first layer and on the second layer if one is using green glue between the two layers. 5/8" will be attached to joists and stud walls followed by green glue and then 1/2".

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post #98 of 1332 Old 10-22-2004, 03:40 AM
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Frank D:

Same rules as without green.
Minimum course of screws on the first layer, and then a full course on the room side layer.

An amateur built the Ark. Titanic was built by professionals. Of course Noah took a little advice.
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post #99 of 1332 Old 10-22-2004, 05:06 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by kwolff
The low frequency sound level only drops from 75 to 73 db when traveling upstairs?! How are you measuring that? It's enough to make me nervous about my project.

Can you measure again with either pink noise or sine waves at various frequencies? I would love to see before and after numbers, even if they are from a typical room instead of real lab measurements..and I'll bet a lot of other folks would be interested too.

Thanks

Ya...scary, eh? This is in the room as it was built (I haven't done anything to the room yet). It amazed me, too, but there it was. I measured with a simple SPL meter set to C weighting and slow response using a music source that had a normal amount of low-range stuff (not overly boomy).I measured the primary listening postion downstairs, then stood in the middle of the master bedroom upstairs with the meter horizontal at about 4 feet off the floor. I also measured using pink noise, but I don't remember the results. As expected, it is really only the low end that vibrates on through the ceiling and floor above. I'm sure much of it is going through the structure of the load bearing wall that is shared with both rooms.

I will do another measurement hopefully within a day and post the results for you. I don't think I have a source for sine waves (specific frequencies), but I should be able to do pink noise. I'll let you know. I was going to do before and afters anyway.
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post #100 of 1332 Old 10-22-2004, 04:58 PM
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If you can play MP3 files, here is a source for any specific bass frequency wave you want to play.

Good, cheap, easy - pick any two.
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post #101 of 1332 Old 10-24-2004, 08:42 PM
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ok, a few things to follow up on here.

Ken - yes, damping floors is particularily advantageous

about screws - use what code requires, no need for more, don't use less. this isn't a situation where screwing causes failure ala resilient channel...

test results for 1/4 drywall/homasote sandwich - couple more days

BillWil, and all. When measuring the volume of low frequency sound making it's way from one room to another, make sure to measure at MANY locations in both rooms.

the reason for this is that room modes, and reflections/interference and the like can cause considerable peaks and dips in measured volume at different places in the room. Perhaps you've seen the plots with big peaks and dips - ala the Bad Bass thread?

So if you measure one room at a dip at the frequency in question, and get, say, 78db, then measure the next room at a peak at the same frequency you might get 79db and conclude that your wall actually amplified the frequency.

if you measure at many positions in both rooms and average them you'll garner a better idea.

one point that you touched on that is very true, is that stopping low frequencies is the grand challenge.

take care all,

Brian


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post #102 of 1332 Old 10-28-2004, 03:06 PM
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How does this product stack up against any weighted vinyl barrier sheeting, or even good old roll roofing? This product gets very expensive very fast, when a 5 gallon drum, listed at $220, only covers 60 sq ft. Not for the budget minded, by all appearances.
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post #103 of 1332 Old 10-28-2004, 04:08 PM
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Have you priced the mass loaded vinyl you referred to?

Green covers 60 square feet per gallon, not per 5 gallon pail

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post #104 of 1332 Old 11-01-2004, 09:49 AM
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hi all,

the lab would like to apologize mildly for the somewhat slower than expected response to some of these questions, lots going on and we decided that running each test agan would behoove us before making a comment.

1/4" drywall with 5/8" (this was asked for space reasons, i believe?: recommended, this does an acceptable job and performance is different than, but similar to (with respect to damping) 5/8" wih 5/8". as is the case almost more with Green Glue than with no adhesive, the differing properties create chaotic behavior which may have some additional advantage.

drywall/green/homasote/green/drywall - recommended, and worth further exploration. Damping was superior (considerably) to drywall/green/drywall (one damping layer). The same would apply to drywall/green/drywall/green/drywall, however, and no particular advantage is noted for utilizing soundboard as the core at this time. The unique surface characteristics of that type of product (fiberbaord/soundboard) offer some promise for future work.

suffice it to say this: you will attain superior damping AND superior mass by utilizing

drywall/50% coverage Green/drywall/50% coverage Green/drywall

than

drywall/green/drywall

and if you can tolerate the mass/labor expenses (if applicable)/space, whatever of the extra layer you will be rewarded.

later this week i/we hope to catch up thoroughly on this stuff here, and i hope to finish what i started a while back with the general guidelines to sound isolation.

Brian


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post #105 of 1332 Old 11-01-2004, 09:55 AM
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brianr820, thanks for all the hard work!
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post #106 of 1332 Old 11-01-2004, 09:57 AM
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Hmmm,
I wonder about using strickly 1/4".
1/4" DW/GG/1/4"DW/GG/1/4" DW.

Probably would be better (maybe) than
1/2"DW/GG/5/8" DW

Or not.

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post #107 of 1332 Old 11-01-2004, 10:04 AM
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I have never seen 1/4 inch drywall! I thought it was just a typo before. Is is some sort of special order item? I always see 1/2, 5/8, Green board, sound board, cement board, etc. But no 1/4 inch. I would think that would snap too easily.
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post #108 of 1332 Old 11-01-2004, 10:44 AM
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hi guys, we'd never had it in the lab prior to this request, either, the only drawback that i can see is that it's NOT VERY STRONG, lol

they use it, i'm told, to make curved walls often - those walls probably really need some Green.


just for fun, discussion purposes:

your idea, (bobMD) has merit - 1/4" drywall would have VASTLY lower wave-speed, stiffness, and somewhat higher damping (Green Glue doesn't really "crap-out" on thick things, so probably not immensely higher) - and the destruction of vibration over distance would be overwhelming.

talking about normal 2x4 walls only:

also, you'd lower the walls resonant point (pros and cons to that i suppose)

the big drawback is that you'd lose mass... and that will play a considerable role in the subwoofer region (low frequency performance is primarily mass minus resonance), and i think most people would be better served by the heavier wall, although i would offer that mass-for-mass, layers of 1/4" and green would be expensive, but superb.

for de-coupled designs (RSIC, room-within-a room), use the heaver drywall, as the mass has even more benefit there.

take care all, and don't hesitate to post whatever is on your mind, never know when a thought will turn up something really interesting.

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post #109 of 1332 Old 11-01-2004, 05:55 PM
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Quote:


don't hesitate to post whatever is on your mind

Hey! How about a two-fer-one introductory offer on GG?!
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post #110 of 1332 Old 11-02-2004, 05:50 AM
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Originally posted by Fatman513
Hey! How about a two-fer-one introductory offer on GG?!

Count me in! That way we could help spread the word about the product with some real usage, not just lab.
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post #111 of 1332 Old 11-02-2004, 06:14 PM
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Regarding 1/4" drywall, yes, it's commonly available, at least in my area. Its main benefits are twofold:
1) it bends, easy to curve as mentioned
2) it's light weight - easier to carry, install, especially if you 1 person doing it

I've used it before, much easier to use than 1/2 or 5/8". However it can snap, as well I know! I won't be using it for my HT, but I wish 5/8" was lighter!

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post #112 of 1332 Old 11-11-2004, 03:33 PM
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Well, my drywall installers just finished installing the drywall with the Green Glue barrier. They still have a lot of work in mudding, taping, etc. But I have to tell you they seemed pretty impressed with the Green Glue. The walls seem incredibly dense. A good rap on it with your knuckles sound like there is concrete behind them (there is only plywood and studs). Also, cleanup was a snap as this stuff is water soluable.

We'll see how it performs once the entire theater is done in a few weeks, but so far the results are encouraging.


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post #113 of 1332 Old 11-11-2004, 06:20 PM
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You guys left out 3/8" drywall. The local Home Depot carries 1/4", 3/8", 1/2" and 5/8".
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post #114 of 1332 Old 11-13-2004, 01:36 PM
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So, let me get this straight. GG can be just as effective as Acoustiblok, roofing rubber?

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post #115 of 1332 Old 11-13-2004, 03:06 PM
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Is it only avalable from one company?

The cheapest price is $220 per 5 gallon bucket?

THANKS
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post #116 of 1332 Old 11-13-2004, 05:42 PM
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Hi Vid,

$220 is the AVS Forum member price as part of a power buy. Green Glue is only available through Audio Alloy. I'd be happy to answer any application questions you may have.

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post #117 of 1332 Old 11-13-2004, 06:08 PM
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Vid:

You're better off spending the money getting your room correct and spending less on speakers, electronics, etc. In terms of 'bang for the buck', Green Glue is the only game in town.

Dennis Erskine CFI, CFII, MEI
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Certified Home Theater Designer
CEDIA Board of Directors

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post #118 of 1332 Old 11-13-2004, 06:23 PM
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Quote:


[i]Originally posted by PeterS

We'll see how it performs once the entire theater is done in a few weeks, [/b]

A Few Weeks....................

I don't care who you are, thats funny right there!!! LOL

Some people just need their own planet!
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post #119 of 1332 Old 11-13-2004, 08:32 PM
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hey Tedd, 3/8" drywall is fine, used as a sandwich with itself (3/8" / green / 3/8")

you may also use it with 1/2 or 5/8, thumbs up, and if you can tolerate it preferable at all times to 1/4", it's only 1/8" thicker and it's still pretty easy for one guy to handle (5/8" is the bugger there)


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post #120 of 1332 Old 11-14-2004, 06:52 AM
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I've just received a couple of pails of Green Glue to get me started, and am weighing 1/2" verus 5/8" drywall over the existing 1/2" drywall and the walls. Locally 5/8" drywall is over $5 a sheet more then 1/2", and I am wondering if I am being tempted by false economy.

Anyone here suggest how to handle drywalling over existing electrical plugs? I'll be terminating the existing wall plug wiring going into the room (per local electrical code), and drywalling the second layer right over them. Do I need to plate these over with drywall, or would some expanding foam be suitable enough to kill the cavity? New wiring runs, in conduit, will be added to satisfy code with the wall plugs in the kicktrim, or columns.
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