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post #181 of 1328 Old 01-16-2005, 07:09 AM
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"but considering the good quality of the composition and the extremely easy environment (no sun, no heat, etc.), it shouldn't be a concern. We've done what can be done to ensure that. "

When you say "no heat", you mean extreme conditions or regular furnace indoor heat?

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post #182 of 1328 Old 01-16-2005, 11:44 AM
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hey vitod, i mean industrial heat that would tend to acclerate aging. so extreme conditions.

for example, drywall is a nice material, probably won't fall off the walls, but it decomposes very rapidly with even mild "heat" of ~75-80C. with some amount of heat*time, it'll rever to plaster of paris (gypsum will). part of the great fire properties of gypsum board materials is that dehydration / reversion to plaster. The process of expelling the water molecule absorbs significant energy - that's called an endothermic reaction.

the most common flame retardant in use (i believe) is alumina trihydrate, or ATH, and it absorbs large amounts of heat / releases water as well to cool and smother fires. widely used in fire-retardant carpet backings, paints, and many other applications.

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post #183 of 1328 Old 01-18-2005, 10:22 AM
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After reading this thread I'm very interested in this product, though my basement HT plan currently calls for a suspended ceiling. If I usd GG on the four walls, what could I use to treat the ceiling?
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post #184 of 1328 Old 01-18-2005, 10:34 AM
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by suspended ceiling do you mean an absorptive tile ceiling? if so, and sound-isolation is a goal, using a drywall ceiling is a big start!

is that what's in the plan as of now? acoustic tile?

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post #185 of 1328 Old 01-18-2005, 12:14 PM
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Yes, acoustic tile ceiling is currently my plan, though if I can see a compelling reason not to I'm willing to change my plan. I have quite a few plumbing shut off valves that I need to have accessible and I figured a suspended ceiling would be the eaiest way to accomplish that as well as making future wiring issues a lot easier.
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post #186 of 1328 Old 01-19-2005, 01:05 PM
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The acoustic tile ceiling will limit low frequency isolation via the ceiling path, and whatever flanking paths relate to the ceiling. A flanking path would be noise going to the next room via the ceiling/structure/etc.

a drywall ceiling will be better at most frequencies, and an improved drywall ceiling - like one hung on RSIC clips or damped or channel or whatever, will be better still.

Rynberg of this forum mentioned a product that is acoustic tile with drywall in a sandwich, perhaps that is a useful compromise (much heavier).

perhaps you could make part of the ceiling removable via panels of some type?

but i do think that you should contemplate a bit the need for isolation, and how much the limited performance of that ceiling will limit that.

treating the floor from beneath with Green is a great idea if you must have the tile ceiling. that will do alot to limit flanking sound.

Brian

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post #187 of 1328 Old 01-19-2005, 02:41 PM
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Hi,

I am finishing out our basement and putting in a media room (not a dedicated HT, unfortunately). The front and left side wall is cinderblock, the back of the theater is 22' from the front wall and is marked by columns, the kids play area is directly behind the columns, the actual back wall of the room is 38' from the front wall so the kids area is 16' deep. The right wall is basically a wall that has an opening for the eq rack and then a long double door closet. I am not terribly concerned with sound isolation since the sleeping quarters are two levels above but i am concerned with sound quality. Does double drywall with gc make sense in this situation and if so where would you use it. Also if I am planning on using insul shield on the dry wall (either single or double) would you use gc between the insul shield and the top dry wall layer? Thanks Ron
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post #188 of 1328 Old 01-20-2005, 03:39 AM
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Hey Ron,

This is a fantastic question. Maybe it would be helpful if some of the AVS members who have/are working with green chimed in. Most of them aren't finished with their rooms, i don't think. But a couple of gents from this forum have commented that it cleared up "echos" in their room (one of their words), etc. if they see this, perhaps they will comment.

I will answer this with what i know, as i know it.

it'll eliminate or at least grossly reduce the chance of the wall rattling. it will improve sound transmission, blah blah blah


My understanding of the impact of Green Glue on in-room absorption is somewhat different. I would anticipate that the absorption of a common wall would ahve two traits

1. it would be fairly narrow in band
2. it would ring (re-radiate some sound back inot the room after the music stopped)

Green glue would (this is my thoughts) flatten and broaden the absorption curve, and it will 110,000% wholly eliminate ringing. But i don't think it will raise the peak absorption of the wall.

anyone is welcome to chip in.

Now, i am not nearly as competent to discuss room acoustics as Noral Stewart who is a very noteworthy acoustics professional. see here: http://www.stewartacousticalconsultants.com/people.html

in this thraed: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...mindspring.net

he enters this comment about damped walls in this regard: "In theory and concept it should provide some benefit as claimed. Light gypsum walls do vibrate and absorb some energy in doing so. In concept, the material improves this ability to absorb energy and reduces the chances of any of that energy being re-radiated."

so perhaps my understanding needs a tweaking.



another thing that is interesting to measure, although i don't know what it means for the sound in a room, is the tendency for walls, ceilings, etc. to vibrate (sometimes strongly) at their resonant frequencies even when no noise is being played at those frequencies.

in loudspeaker cabinets this is called "wolf-tone" behavior.

we did a study in one room, on the walls and ceiling, and found that this wolf-tone behavior spanned about one octave. The ceiling had a primary structural resonance at an average of 172hz.

noise between 100 and 250hz caused the ceiling to vibrate at 172hz (average, again). For about 1/2 octave, the ceiling vibrate dmore at 172 hz than at, say, 157hz or 198 hz.

interesting, and i don't know what any of this means.


whatever the case, this is something that we will study when time allows, and attemp tto offer predictions of absorption for Green walls of various configurations.

take care,

Brian

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post #189 of 1328 Old 01-20-2005, 06:27 AM
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I wrote in another forum that once my walls were up with "Green-in-Between" (What is my kickback for providing you your slogan?) I had less echo. Basically, when I clapped my hand within the various rooms in my basement, the bathroom and HT had the least amount of slap echo. Remember that there is only a concrete floor, no pad or carpet yet. The bathroom probably had less echo due to the fact it had less parallel surfaces with the tub, shelves, and closet. The HT is almost exactly the same configuration as another room, but it has less echo. The echo dies much faster. I don't have any measurements or recordings to prove this, but even my non-audiophile wife could tell the difference. I can also say there is MUCH less impact sound from the family room above it. I can't say this is just because of Green since I have quite a bit of layers there. The joists were filled with R-19 insulation, then a layer of sound board (with Green where the joists were), then 5/8 drywall, Green Glue, then 5/8 drywall. I will have to wait to install the door prior to telling you about the reduction in sound transition.
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post #190 of 1328 Old 01-20-2005, 08:51 AM
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hey Bruno, that is pretty catchy!

the echo - was that low frequency echo or pingy echo...?

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post #191 of 1328 Old 01-20-2005, 10:09 AM
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It was slap echo that fairly low to mid fequency. I am sure someone could tell us the typical frequencies for a hand slap. Obviously there is an echo still present since you would never get rid of the first reflections, but it certainly dies down faster.
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post #192 of 1328 Old 01-20-2005, 11:11 AM
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that's very interesting. I do think this is something worth exploring, as that's at least the 3rd similar feedback i've recieved. curse my lack of in-room absorption expertise


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post #193 of 1328 Old 01-20-2005, 12:34 PM
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I have used several systems within the walls of my theater, as well as sound shaping systems on top of them. Within the walls are clips and channels to suspend the walls and the ceiling, heavy duty insulation throughout, rubber matting to dampen sound in critical areas, a layer of plywood and two layers of drywall with Green in between them.

I can say that during the construction process the single greatest change in the sound of the room is when the Green Glue was put in. The room immediately became very neutral and dead, and the sound stayed in the room. We did different tests at all stages as controlling the sound was extremely important as the room is flanked by stairways leading up, and the cavity under the stairs is adjacent to the room on both sides.

However, remember, sound is like water - it will find a way if you give it one. You can not do this partially and expect any real change in the sound. If you leave a panel untreated, that is where the sound will leak out. If you do not do the ceiling, then why bother - the sound will travel upwards.

Green Glue does what it says it will do, and what it does is amazing. However, you need to plan your room carefully. Drop ceilings are right out. Poor wall construction is a nightmare waiting to happen. Think this through. You will generally only have once chance on getting this right. The Green Glue is an excellent product that I am sure you will feel as strongly about as I do once you get it in the walls.

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post #194 of 1328 Old 01-20-2005, 06:17 PM
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Peter, I noticed on your theater that you installed a layer of plywood and then two layers of drywall. Did you put Green Glue between the plywood and first layer of drywall, or is it just between the two layers of drywall? Your theater is the first one I've seen with the plywood layer. Was this for additional sound proofing or was there another reason for it? If it was for sound proofing, do you think it was worth the additional cost for the results you acheived? I'm working on the design of my HT and I'm wondering if I should add the plywood with an additional layer of Green Glue between it and the first layer of drywall.

(By the way, every time I see one of your posts, I can't help myself but go look at your HT again. It still inspires me!)
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post #195 of 1328 Old 01-20-2005, 07:44 PM
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First, thanks for the kind words about the theater.

Second, the plywood is there for the resilient channel system. It was recommended tha this be attached to the plywood. The Green Glue is best between two layers of drywall, ergo the reasoning.

However, if you are not using a resilient channel system, then I would drop the plywood and simply go with two layers of 5/8" drywall.

Hope that helps.

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post #196 of 1328 Old 01-22-2005, 12:41 PM
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I am getting close tho the drywall stage of the HT project. Studs are up and electric is being installed.
Next is drywall.
I am doing double wall construction with two layers of drywall. (5/8 bottom and 1/2 inch top.) I am thinking about going with GG, but my original plans were to just use liquid nails in between the drywall layers and screws. Do you/can you use both methods at the same time or is this a no-no?

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post #197 of 1328 Old 01-22-2005, 12:48 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by suffolk112000
I am getting close tho the drywall stage of the HT project. Studs are up and electric is being installed.
Next is drywall.
I am doing double wall construction with two layers of drywall. (5/8 bottom and 1/2 inch top.) I am thinking about going with GG, but my original plans were to just use liquid nails in between the drywall layers and screws. Do you/can you use both methods at the same time or is this a no-no?

Craig

Do you mean put both Liquid nails AND Green Glue in the same layer?

I'm pretty sure this would be a bad idea.

Liquid nails will bond two sheets of drywall into a single ridgid layer--basically making it one sheet of drywall.

Green Glue is flexible, and allows both sheets to sheer against each other.

My Media Room Construction thread. Work began 2/15/05, finished 7.1 install 6/2005. Sold house 7/2007.
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post #198 of 1328 Old 01-22-2005, 01:08 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Toeside
Do you mean put both Liquid nails AND Green Glue in the same layer?

I'm pretty sure this would be a bad idea.

Liquid nails will bond two sheets of drywall into a single ridgid layer--basically making it one sheet of drywall.

Green Glue is flexible, and allows both sheets to sheer against each other.

Toeside,

Yes... the same layer. Common sense was telling me that it was a bad idea to not use the two together, but hey... you never know.
So, if I use GG, I should not use any caulk at all when drywalling.. ??
Not even between the studs and first layer of drywall... ??

My theater is going to be 18.5 X 22.5 with an average ceiling height of 8.5 feet
If I go with GG, how much of this stuff am I going to need to buy?

Craig

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post #199 of 1328 Old 01-22-2005, 02:39 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by suffolk112000
Toeside,

Yes... the same layer. Common sense was telling me that it was a bad idea to not use the two together, but hey... you never know.
So, if I use GG, I should not use any caulk at all when drywalling.. ??
Not even between the studs and first layer of drywall... ??

My theater is going to be 18.5 X 22.5 with an average ceiling height of 8.5 feet
If I go with GG, how much of this stuff am I going to need to buy?

Craig

If you are planning on using Green all all 4 walls and ceiling, that's about 1113 sq ft, or 18.5 Gallons of Green. Remember, Green is advertised to be 75% effective at 50% coverage.

Luckily, my project includes both sides of a double wall (one side vaulted to 12 ft, the other side is 8ft), plus another 16x8 wall. I figure I can do all this at just over 50% coverage--my budget allows for only one 5 gallon bucket of Green.

My Media Room Construction thread. Work began 2/15/05, finished 7.1 install 6/2005. Sold house 7/2007.
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post #200 of 1328 Old 01-22-2005, 02:42 PM
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Oh yeah, about whether to caulk or not... Liquid Nails get's rock hard, caulk doesn't. Several people are using acoustic caulk in their drywall seams and electrical boxes. One person, might have even been mentioned in this thread, said he was going to use green between the framing and the first layer of drywall.

My Media Room Construction thread. Work began 2/15/05, finished 7.1 install 6/2005. Sold house 7/2007.
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post #201 of 1328 Old 01-25-2005, 01:22 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Toeside
If you are planning on using Green all all 4 walls and ceiling, that's about 1113 sq ft, or 18.5 Gallons of Green. Remember, Green is advertised to be 75% effective at 50% coverage.

Luckily, my project includes both sides of a double wall (one side vaulted to 12 ft, the other side is 8ft), plus another 16x8 wall. I figure I can do all this at just over 50% coverage--my budget allows for only one 5 gallon bucket of Green.

Hmmm... $1000 for GG.
I will have to pass.
Thanks for the reply.

Craig

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post #202 of 1328 Old 01-25-2005, 01:44 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by suffolk112000
Hmmm... $1000 for GG.
I will have to pass.
Thanks for the reply.

Craig

I just ordered mine yesterday. I ended up getting enough to do the floor too... I think the total was $510 with shipping. What's crazy is total materials for my project is around $1900. $510 of that is Green Glue, $380 is the door. 1/2 of the budget is gone right there.

My Media Room Construction thread. Work began 2/15/05, finished 7.1 install 6/2005. Sold house 7/2007.
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post #203 of 1328 Old 01-25-2005, 01:50 PM
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Brian,

Have you done your attenuation through the wall vs. frequency measurments yet?

Also, my theater will have a blueboard-homasote-blueboard stackup. If layer 1 is the layer that attaches to the studs, I'm planning to use Green Glue between layers 2 and 3. If you measure a significant improvement with Green Glue between both 1 & 2 and 2 & 3, Ill do that too.

Ken
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post #204 of 1328 Old 01-25-2005, 01:53 PM
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hey guys, liquid nails and Green Glue could be used in combination if you put the liquid nails in a specific pattern to avoid interfering with the necessary shear.

but that wouldn't really be worth the bother

i think most people who are building new walls and using green have put it between the drywall and the studs, no?

Now, if you used 50% coverage with GG, you'd wind up with (in theory) 120sq feet/gallon, so about 2 pails. It's up to you to make sure you meet your coverage goals, of course. I suppose it depends on what type of liquid nails you opt for, but it would cost maybe 12-25 dollars a gallon? around there? might be interesting to calculate the cost difference of green to a common adhesive, maybe someday.

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post #205 of 1328 Old 01-25-2005, 01:57 PM
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hey Ken,

our time in the labs is nearly here, the measurements should not be far off.

I would offer that using 1/2 coverage of Green between twice, rather than full coverage once and none once is another option.

what is blueboard?

Brian

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post #206 of 1328 Old 01-25-2005, 01:58 PM
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also, Ken, homasote is generally recommended as the inside layer, and then you screw the next layers into it. so it can act as a resilient de-coupler of sorts.

as a central layer, i wouldn't recommend it over just a sheet of drywall. The drywall is heavier, which is a good thing.

Brian

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post #207 of 1328 Old 01-25-2005, 02:16 PM
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I am retrofitting an existing space. Any areas of all new wall construction will get GG on stud surfaces. My one test panel of a single layer of drywall with GG between it and the studs, showed a noticeable improvement over the existing prehung drywall (no GG). I figure it won't use much GG, but it is fussy enough work applying GG to the studs that I have considered buying another trowel, and cutting it down to putty knife size. All new wall sections I build, that will be common to the rest of the house, will get GG on stud. Ditto for the ceiling.
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post #208 of 1328 Old 01-25-2005, 02:20 PM
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Blueboard is regular drywall with a waterproof coating (which happens to be blue). Our architect specified it.

http://www.bobvila.com/ArticleLibrar...Blueboard.html

Ken
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post #209 of 1328 Old 01-25-2005, 02:36 PM
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hey Tedd, that's a great idea. i know a place that sells stud-sized trowels, and i will request that audio alloy begin shipping them with orders upon request to accomodate this use (studs), as big trowels ARE a PITA.

that's cool feedback as well.

Ken,

is the blueboard literally waterproof/airtight? if so the central layer of your 3 item sandwich should be something that isn't, like regular drywall (which i'd still recommend over homasote). i LIKE homasote+homasote with green glue, but we get better results here with drywall+ drywall than homasote+drywall if they are to be used as a sandwich ala your description.

now, homasote/homasote damped + drywall/drywall damped used in the normal manner has just marvelous potential, but that's a bit different than your application.

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post #210 of 1328 Old 01-25-2005, 02:44 PM
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Richard Bird at Rives Audio specified that stackup. I'll have to ask him about it. They have done quite a few high end theaters, so presumably experience has led to this configuration.

Thanks

Ken
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