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post #361 of 915 Old 04-23-2007, 12:14 AM
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Hi BShaw@BedHandles

When I did an enquiry on the same GOM in Dec2006 this was the reply from InterfaceFabrics:

"This color is an inactive color in the Spinel line.
We do, however, have 3 rolls totaling 169 yards in our North Carolina warehouse."

Maybe your lucky and there's still some left.

Johan

There's always something!!!
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post #362 of 915 Old 04-23-2007, 09:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Bought mine from SilentSource.com back in 5/2004.
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post #363 of 915 Old 04-23-2007, 12:43 PM
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Thanks guys, I called GOM today and the still have (had) around 190 lineal yards! I bought 40 from them so they still have some for the next HT project. I'm hoping that I got enough as I know I might not get another shot at this. I plan on making about the same size frames with enough material to wrap and staple to the frames + scrap + a large fudge factor for the inevitable goof up.

My ongoing home theater project, the Shoehorn Theater.
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post #364 of 915 Old 04-25-2007, 05:40 AM
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I would like to ask a question about these frames.

I am doing a fiber optic star ceiling in my build. I want as few seams as possible, and for them to be as invisible as possible.

I have considered doing a frame to mount on the ceiling. my room is 19' x 12'. my thought was to build 2 frames, each 19' x 6' (the fabric width is 10'). I would have center supports on the frame every 16 or 12 inches. I would attach these frames to furring strips which are screwed to the ceiling joists with velcro and some brads, possibly also some glue (I wouldn't want them coming down. the velcro would only be to hold them in place while I attach them, in case I have to shift them to get the seam in the middle tight, the seam on the sides and rear are not critical as they will be covered).

my concern is that even if I glue the fabric to the supports (the supports built with the same technique described here, about a 3" width), the fabric will sag over time, especially with the fiber optics, the fibers are lightweight, but still would add some pressure. For those of you who have built these frames, do you feel the fabric would sag eventually? I am using Dazian Celtic Cloth on the ceiling.

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post #365 of 915 Old 04-25-2007, 05:48 AM
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Rob you may want to check out the Sandmans thread as he did a fabric ceiling with star lighting.
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post #366 of 915 Old 04-25-2007, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

Rob you may want to check out the Sandmans thread as he did a fabric ceiling with star lighting.

I did, and that is the other option I am considering (although I will do 4x8 sheets for fewer seams). so basically, I am torn between doing a solid wood backing for the fabric, or a framed approach. the framed approach would be easier on my back, and I would only have 1 seam, but as I said I am concerned with the sag...

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post #367 of 915 Old 04-25-2007, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by rm1759 View Post

I did, and that is the other option I am considering (although I will do 4x8 sheets for fewer seams). so basically, I am torn between doing a solid wood backing for the fabric, or a framed approach. the framed approach would be easier on my back, and I would only have 1 seam, but as I said I am concerned with the sag...

One other benefit of the "frame design" is you could put some acoustical material up there to help with 1st ceiling reflections. I plan to do a combo of frames and solid. The solids will be built with 1/4" masonite (to keep it light) and some 1x2 supports to help with bowing/sagging.
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post #368 of 915 Old 04-25-2007, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swithey View Post

One other benefit of the "frame design" is you could put some acoustical material up there to help with 1st ceiling reflections. I plan to do a combo of frames and solid. The solids will be built with 1/4" masonite (to keep it light) and some 1x2 supports to help with bowing/sagging.

This is also what I was thinking, I am going to have some leftover lineacoustic, and could treat the first reflections in the ceiling with it. for your frames, how large are you going to make the gaps? my thought now is that if I go with 1x framing, maybe 1x4's, spaced at 12" on center (biscuit joined) use 3M spray on the supports, and stretch & staple the fabric, that might do the trick, but still, I would hate to build it, put it up there and find the fabric sagging in a year or two...

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post #369 of 915 Old 04-25-2007, 09:30 AM - Thread Starter
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I understand the desire to go seamless, for a clean simple look. But seams can also be your friend. Seams can be part of the design to make you ceiling more interesting when the lights are on. Seams can create all kinds of design and details. And when the lights are off, the ceiling turns into a star field, surprise!
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post #370 of 915 Old 04-25-2007, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rm1759 View Post

This is also what I was thinking, I am going to have some leftover lineacoustic, and could treat the first reflections in the ceiling with it. for your frames, how large are you going to make the gaps? my thought now is that if I go with 1x framing, maybe 1x4's, spaced at 12" on center (biscuit joined) use 3M spray on the supports, and stretch & staple the fabric, that might do the trick, but still, I would hate to build it, put it up there and find the fabric sagging in a year or two...

I'm still working out the design for mine. Spray glue was never really a consideration for me but you do bring up a good point about sagging. I would think if you stretched the fabric very tight, there would not be any sagging -- but who knows. One other thing to consider is will you see the 12"OC 1x's you are using under the fabric? I wanted to use as few braces as possible to let the fabric float and give a seamless look above.
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post #371 of 915 Old 04-25-2007, 02:43 PM
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I covered my HT ceiling with 9 (+1) fabric frames build with 1x2's, the fabric was stretched very tight, secured with Velcro strips and fastened with screws.
The frames are ~3,5' x 4' in size and cover the ceiling construction to deal with 1st reflections for the front and rear row and bass absorbtion.

I do not expect the fabric to sag, and even it does after some time - just remove the panel and re-tension it again!

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post #372 of 915 Old 04-25-2007, 03:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swithey View Post

I would think if you stretched the fabric very tight, there would not be any sagging -- but who knows.

If you over stretch the fabric you get pull ripples.

I think this happens because when you stretch by hand you cannot pull evenly across the entire edge of the fabric. Even if you could pull the fabric even you would need a fastener better then staples. As you would need to evenly retain the fabric to minimize the ripples. I had this problem with my small frames. I would think it would be much more difficult with a 10' frame.

The trick is getting the fabric tight enough but without the ripples.
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post #373 of 915 Old 04-26-2007, 06:10 AM
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Hmm, well, I think maybe trying to do a frame 16' wide might be a little ambitious. so, I think the approach I will take will be a mixture. Some of the panels will be solid 3/4" mdf. some of them framed with 1x2's, and backed with lineacoustic for the first reflections. all of them will be the same size (approx 4' x 4'). i will attach to the furring strips with velcro and finish nails.

Hopefully this will work

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post #374 of 915 Old 04-26-2007, 07:20 AM
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sorry, double post.

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post #375 of 915 Old 04-27-2007, 05:49 AM
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Inspiring work GPowers. I haven't been able to find much on what you did for your ceiling aside from the soffit design. Is it painted drywall? What color did you go with? Are you happy with it?

My ongoing home theater project, the Shoehorn Theater.
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post #376 of 915 Old 04-27-2007, 10:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BShaw@BedHandles View Post

Inspiring work GPowers. I haven't been able to find much on what you did for your ceiling aside from the soffit design. Is it painted drywall? What color did you go with? Are you happy with it?

The ceiling is a work in progress. I' am up in the air between putting some kind of design or star field on the ceiling.

The temporary, current ceiling is drywall painted Kodak gray. Several years ago Kodak gray was the hot topic. Hard to find so I had it custom mixed. So it is very plane at this time.

All of my extra time has been taken up by redecorating the house. The progress on the home theater has been at a standstill for over a year now. But as soon as I get the master bedroom finished, it is back to the home theater and then in a year or two the kitchen. Not looking forward to that one.
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post #377 of 915 Old 04-27-2007, 01:55 PM
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I'v decided to put in an LED/fiber-optic star field; and I'm going to use frames to do so. I like the LED/fiber approach because 1) it's cheaper 2) each frame has it's own LED source emitter which won't burn out and 3) It gives me a way to cover the ceiling using black velvet.

In short, my plan is to make self contained ~4'x8' frames covered with velvet. Each frame has an LED illuminator and fibers. Th field (or collection) of frames is sized to be about a 12" smaller than the extent of the drywalled ceiling drywall which about a 9" shy of the lighted soffits as you have designed them. Finally, the entire group of frames is surrounded with crown molding (I'm using step crown) that hides the mounting screws, transitions the depth of the frames back to the drywall ceiling depth and created a bit of a shadow box effect to keep the starfield from being uplit by the soffit rope light. Since each frame has its own illuminator the twinkling effect shoud appear more random than a wheel based illuminator. Finally, each frame gets its own power outlet and just plugs in as it is installed.

There, what that short? I haven't yet decided whether I'll bevel the frames on the ceiling and I'll probably paint the remaining drywall, soffit and crown a light to medium grey as you did.

My ongoing home theater project, the Shoehorn Theater.
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post #378 of 915 Old 04-27-2007, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BShaw@BedHandles View Post

I'v decided to put in an LED/fiber-optic star field; and I'm going to use frames to do so. I like the LED/fiber approach because 1) it's cheaper 2) each frame has it's own LED source emitter which won't burn out and 3) It gives me a way to cover the ceiling using black felt.

In short, my plan is to make self contained ~4'x8' frames covered with felt. Each frame has an LED illuminator and fibers.

Could you please share your source for the LED emitter? I like that idea over having a separate lightbox.
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post #379 of 915 Old 04-27-2007, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swithey View Post

Could you please share your source for the LED emitter? I like that idea over having a separate lightbox.

Check out starceiling123.com or trinorthlighting.com they're both interesting sites. The unit from StarCeiling123.com is likely what I'll use. I figure I'll be able to put together a 128 sq ft ceiling for a lot less (<1K) than a traditional illuminator. I think I'll buy one and try it out to be sure.

My ongoing home theater project, the Shoehorn Theater.
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post #380 of 915 Old 05-11-2007, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GPowers View Post

Brian:

I used the table saw to do the first few frames that only had a horizontal, top and bottom, 45 degree cut. I switched to the router when i needed to do three and four sides of the panel. The table saw just did not produce the look i wanted on the corners etc...

The router bit is still working great and i have done about 40 panels. Can not say that for my 20 year old router. The trigger switch went bad.

The router bit is a Bosch brand and is very large & weighty bit, is was expensive too. Maybe thats why it is still cutting great. The smaller sears bits i have used usually start to burn and over heat.

So i guess it comes down to the tools you have at hand and i do not have a great table saw and the router produced cleaner frames.

Greg

I know next to nothing about woodworking router or table saws. I have been looking at either renting table saws and buying a router, until I saw this. Greg (or others), do you think a table saw like this would be up for the job?


http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-4000-09-...8893743&sr=8-1

I guess I was thinking if I need to buy a router and rent a table saw, maybe I can just buy a nice table saw and skip the router. If so, is this saw nice enough? I'll want nice 45s, so if its gotta be a router, so be it.
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post #381 of 915 Old 05-11-2007, 07:59 AM
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I think this happens because when you stretch by hand you cannot pull evenly across the entire edge of the fabric.

Make a stretcher bar - that is what we are doing. A couple pieces of 1 x 2 and 3-4 C clamps. You staple the first edge and then clamp the second edge between the 1 x 2 strips and then have two people pull evenly on the 1 x 2 stretcher as you wrap around the opposite edge. Maintain tension on the bar until you get it stapled.

Also, if you want to use screws to attach and don't like the screw heads, you buy button caps for flat head screws - very low profile and just press fit.

See Here for the caps. I used black from Rockler

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post #382 of 915 Old 05-11-2007, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_pilgrim View Post

I know next to nothing about woodworking router or table saws. I have been looking at either renting table saws and buying a router, until I saw this. Greg (or others), do you think a table saw like this would be up for the job?


http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-4000-09-...8893743&sr=8-1

I guess I was thinking if I need to buy a router and rent a table saw, maybe I can just buy a nice table saw and skip the router. If so, is this saw nice enough? I'll want nice 45s, so if its gotta be a router, so be it.

Dave.,

I used a similar table saw (Ryobi's version of the same portable saw) for my panels and had great luck. The trick is to cut them close to length and route the 45deg at that time. With shorter pieces, it is easier to get a smooth and accurate cut. Once the angle is made, then you use your compound miter saw to cut them to the proper size. Honestly, when they are covered with material, any slight imperfection will not be noticeable. You can also use a sander to smooth out the corners if needed. My panels were 2-layers: Top was 3/4" MDF and the bottom was 1/2 plywood. The MDF is nice because it cuts so easily.

The router will do the trick as well but may take more time and will definitely produce more sawdust.

Do you have a buddy with a table saw you could try out a few pieces? That might give you a better sense if this method will work for you.
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post #383 of 915 Old 05-11-2007, 09:31 AM - Thread Starter
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The Bosch saw should work ok. For the price (550-580) I would try to find one a larger table surface.

Somthing like this
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post #384 of 915 Old 05-11-2007, 10:11 AM
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You might also check out Grizzly for great, although larger, table saws. If you have room, they are a better value than the wimpy movable ones.

For every complex problem there is an answer
that is clear, simple, and wrong.


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post #385 of 915 Old 05-11-2007, 10:13 AM
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Thanks Greg and Steve. Good suggestion to test it out. Unfortunately my friends are as handy as me (not), and I don't think anyone I know local has a table saw. I should sneak a piece through the carpenter's dewalt while he is here (or better yet, ask him to run a piece of scrap MDF) to see if I like the edge. Good suggestion!

My problem with a bigger saw is a shrinking garage. I need to be able to tuck it away easily. I need to pitch the saw purchase to the wife, but shouldn't be too bad. After a joint trim project, she appreciates having the right tool for a job.

Quote:
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My panels were 2-layers: Top was 3/4" MDF and the bottom was 1/2 plywood. The MDF is nice because it cuts so easily.

That was going to be my next question. I guess the MDF and Ply combo still the proven method. I wouldn't mind cutting down the cutting, but not if it will just cause other problems.

I am planning to take some time off work this summer to get through frame building - but painting in the rest of the basement will be the bigger priority in the near term. Playroom before theater. My columns are spaced to put two panels just like Greg's between them.

I'll post pics here when I get started. Steve, how did you like the Ryobi, anyways? I like Bosch (drill, sliding miter saw), but they aren't cheap.
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post #386 of 915 Old 05-11-2007, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by CCDAstro View Post

You might also check out Grizzly for great, although larger, table saws. If you have room, they are a better value than the wimpy movable ones.

Oh sure, now you are taunting me (or my garage).
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post #387 of 915 Old 05-11-2007, 10:29 AM
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rm1759,

Did you start your star ceiling yet? How heavy is a 4'x4' mdf panel held overhead:-) ?

I built 4' x 5' frames out of 1x2's, filled the frames with OC 703, covered with black GOM, poked the star fibers through and nailed the panels to 1/4"x 2" furring strips glued to the ceiling with a brad nailer. You are right to be concerned about sag - my first panel sagged no matter how tight the GOM was stretched. I used 3M spray adhesive to solve the problem.

I used FRK 703 with the foil side (painted) facing the room and cut large diamond shaped pieces of the foil out for first reflection treatment. I didn't want to over-deaden the room by using totally unfaced material. I wasn't terribly careful about the size and placement of the foil cutouts because there are 6 seats and 7 speakers and i don't see how you can completely optimize that many variables for first reflections - but it definitely improved sound in the room. At the same time, the OC 703 provided an easy way to place the star fibers and hot glue in place.

I would have preferred fewer, larger panels but i mostly work on this at night by myself and have to be able to manage alone. The seams aren't really noticable to anyone but me, because no one ever stares at the ceiling in the theater room (except me while i'm figuring out the next way to spend more money on AV equipment) unless the lights are out and the stars are glowing.
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post #388 of 915 Old 05-11-2007, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_pilgrim View Post

Steve, how did you like the Ryobi, anyways? I like Bosch (drill, sliding miter saw), but they aren't cheap.

For a $200 saw -- it works out very well. It does a nice job if you take the time to measure things with a ruler. The gauge in the front is pretty close but if you need something to 1/32", then don't trust it. I've used it to make my DIY speakers (which took some pretty precision cutting) and my panels with great success.

THIS is the one I have (looks like they have a new model coming out that can rip 3" wider HERE). It can cut through just about anything. The only thing that bogs it down a bit is when I rip 2x4s at a 45deg angle. That takes a bit of force to get it through (even with a new blade. You need to be sure you have the saw on it's own 15amp circuit when cutting wood like that or you'll trip the breaker every time. I had to move the vacuum to another circuit to have both running at the same time. Also, since the table surface is not that large, I made some saw horses the exact height of the saw to hold the wood before and after the cut.

Now, is the Bosch at $800 a better saw? I'll bet it is. I'm all about buying quality tools because a cheap tool ends up costing you more than the expensive one in the long run)! But I've had my Ryobi about 3 years now and I've worked it to death building my HT and other home projects. It shows no signs of wear and tear. I'd say if you are okay spending $800 on the nicer saw, get it. But if you want to get your feet wet with something that works pretty well, check it out at your local HD. I think I paid $145 for mine because I bought the floor model and had a 10% off coupon.
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post #389 of 915 Old 05-11-2007, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Jon V View Post

rm1759,

Did you start your star ceiling yet? How heavy is a 4'x4' mdf panel held overhead:-) ?


I have begun, but I am not as far you!

As is usual with this project, plans change. I was concerned so much with sag, that I decided to go a little more conservative. I also work at night and alone, so weight was a concern for me. So, I decided to take SandmanX's design, and change it slightly. I cut 12 47" x 47" pieces of 1/4" hardboard (masonite). I then glued & stapled 1x2's around the outside. i changed my mind about using furring strips, thinking I could save another 3/4" of height in the room (height is an issue for me, I have 6"10" above my riser). plus, my thinking was that I only needed them for routing the cables. I figured I could leave gaps in the 1x2 masonite framing to run the fiber cables through.

So, I planned out each panel, located where the wires were running through, and all of the star locations (I am not using a random star spacing, I am going to reproduce the night sky with constellations). I built the 12 panels, and am ready to start the drilling process.

Trouble is, I had planned to use velcro to hold the panels up temporarily. they are not very heavy, and I have the industrial strength velcro. my thought was to put all of the panels up, then snug them up as tightly as possible together (I can leave a 1/2" gap on the sides and 1" on the rear b/c I have a light tray beneath the panels). And then use a finish nailer to attach them to the ceiling joists...

So far, this has not worked out too well. First of all, it is very difficult to get the velcro pieces on the panels to line up with the ones on the ceiling (it takes 24 hrs for the velcro adhesive to dry before you can put a load on it). I got it alright for the first 3 panels, but after that, I was too far off to reliably hold the panel up. and I didn't feel very comfortable walking underneath them...

anyways, I am continuing on. I am now ready to start drilling the holes. then I will put the fabric on with some 3M super 77, and staples. then I will put the panels up with 2 1/2" finish nails to the ceiling studs. If these don't seem too sturdy, then my last resort will be 2 1/2" drywall screws into the studs, and I will have to cover the screw heads with something...

I may start my own build thread and post some pics. The pictures I have taken in the room so far are too dark (all the walls are painted black, and there is not much light) but I will see if I can remedy that...

Guinness is good for you!
Rob

My HT build thread
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post #390 of 915 Old 05-11-2007, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon V View Post

I built 4' x 5' frames out of 1x2's, filled the frames with OC 703, covered with black GOM, poked the star fibers through and nailed the panels to 1/4"x 2" furring strips glued to the ceiling with a brad nailer.

At the same time, the OC 703 provided an easy way to place the star fibers and hot glue in place.

Sorry to get off topic here -- but when you poked the fibers through the OC703, did you say you used hot glue to hold the fibers in place? Did the glue stick well to the OC703? I was planning to use some type of small cardboard backer piece for more gluing surface. Looks like I may not need it after all.
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