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post #181 of 915 Old 01-06-2006, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ifeliciano View Post

Photoshop "panels" and wood panels are not the same. Yes Plywood and MDF are stable flat materials, but proper tools and how to use the tools are a big part of how successful you'l be with your panels / seams. If your panels aren't fairly square you'll have gaps when you butt them up against each other. Just my .02¢

If you had read further up this thread you would have read that I would use a frame jig where all panels would be the same size and square. The Photoshop image is just an example of how the finished project would look. Personally I am capable of making the frames as square as humanly possible. The key to beginning a project such as this is to jig every piece of would cut. By using a jig whether your cutting the sides or the tops and bottoms of the frame panels, each piece of wood has to be cut to the same length.



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Originally Posted by DodgeViper View Post

If I were to build the frames I would use a biscuit joiner machine that cuts into the center of the side of on 1/2 frame and into the end of another section of the frame, this creating a grove for the biscuit to be placed and glued. Using a framing jig this would make a very strong frame. I also have at my disposal a 1/2 shank table mounted router to router the outside edge. I have enclosed a drawing, the red oval is the biscuit of which is made of wood. These biscuits would be installed in each corner of all frames.

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post #182 of 915 Old 01-06-2006, 05:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ifeliciano View Post

If your panels aren't fairly square you'll have gaps when you butt them up against each other. Just my .02¢

That was my biggest fear in doing these Fabric Frames. Getting the Frames all the correct size and keeping them square. I was skeptical that my skill level would not be precise enough to keep all the frames on track.

That is why i kept the pattern very simple. Now that i have done this and successfully pulled off the installation. I would be more aggress next time with a more elaborate pattern.

One thing that helps hide small imperfections is painting the wall black behind the seams. When the wall is white behind the seams small gaps stand out like a sore thumb.
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post #183 of 915 Old 01-06-2006, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DodgeViper View Post

If you had read further up this thread you would have read that I would use a frame jig where all panels would be the same size and square. The Photoshop image is just an example of how the finished project would look. Personally I am capable of making the frames as square as humanly possible. The key to beginning a project such as this is to jig every piece of would cut. By using a jig whether your cutting the sides or the tops and bottoms of the frame panels, each piece of wood has to be cut to the same length.


Sorry. I was not trying to imply you were not capable of building the frames. I just meant that it is not an easy task for someone without the right tools and skills to make these and have them look like your p-shop graph.

I've been looking at the same style of wall/acoustic treatments for my room and
had found a year or more ago the designs of Cinematech Seating are just breathtaking. This is what I want my room to look like: Cinematech Seating
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post #184 of 915 Old 01-06-2006, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GPowers View Post

That was my biggest fear in doing these Fabric Frames. Getting the Frames all the correct size and keeping them square. I was skeptical that my skill level would not be precise enough to keep all the frames on track.

That is why i kept the pattern very simple. Now that i have done this and successfully pulled off the installation. I would be more aggress next time with a more elaborate pattern.

One thing that helps hide small imperfections is painting the wall black behind the seams. When the wall is white behind the seams small gaps stand out like a sore thumb.

Hi Greg,

I guess we all can second guess having a frame square, but the bottom-line, if the theater room is not plumb having frames that are square is useless. Installing frames such as you did and as many as you did, it all begins in the preparation of the theater room.

For those reading this thread and will be taking on a project of this magnitude, it would be a good idea to find the lowest point in the floor of the theater room. From this point it would be a good idea to grid the room much like a person who installs dropped ceilings or T-Grid ceilings. The first row of frames is the most important row. With today's laser levels all four walls should be marked for levelness and a chalk line snapped. This line is the starting point for all frames.

Georgia-Pacific the maker of Medium Density Fiberboard (MDF) also sells this product in sizes up to 1.5 inches thick. By purchasing the 1 thick MDF the builder of frames could eliminate one step in building frames, but be prepared for a 4x8 sheet weighing over 100 pounds.
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post #185 of 915 Old 01-06-2006, 10:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Your right no room has perfectly plum wall and square corners.

I started with the first row on top of the wall and worked down. That way I could adjust the bottom row to fit by trimming the bottom edge of the frame. Making the adjustment at floor level keeps these difference away from your line of sight. It also keep them at least five feet from your eyes, harder to see.
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post #186 of 915 Old 01-07-2006, 01:11 PM
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Greg (GPowers),

Thank you very much for this thread. After reading the thread, your FAQ, and seeing the pictures, I decided I will do GPower's Fabric Frames in my dedicated home theater (construction begins in February). I also appreciate your tending this thread for other Fabric Framer want-a-bes.

I have a woodworking shop on the same level as my home theater so the build will be very close to the install. I also feel my experience with picture framing and paneled doors will help. On that note:

Given that I will construct upper wall and lower wall acoustic frames, hang them with a cleat at top and velcro at the bottom, top of wall will have a built-out crown molding lower than the ceiling to allow for rope lighting, bottom of wall will have base board fastened to Dri-Core sub floor, special frame over in-wall speakers,
wall penetrations are 1) projection room window in rear wall, 2) seven in-wall speakers, 3) four sidewall sconce lights (may place these in columns),

Did you crafted each frame for a particular place on the wall?

Do you think it is possible to generically build frames and then just hang them in the next available space (given rooms are not square/plum)?

Or do you see a problem with gaps being visible?

I like what you did in the corners but notice it required frames without the bevel on the inside edge - meaning special corner frames vs. generic. Can you envision a corner treatment that would allow an inside beveled edge?

Attaching the baseboards to the Dri-Core sub floor allow for a pocket at the bottom of the wall for 'fitting'. How about the same cavity at the top of the wall under the crown molding? The fabric frames could then be 'stacked' bottom to top.

I am many months from wall treatments so have plenty of time to plan, plot, and consider your invaluable feedback (Greg, et al.).

Dave

Dave Stroman
Owner/Operator
Summercrest Cinema
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post #187 of 915 Old 01-07-2006, 02:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stromand View Post

Greg (GPowers),

Did you crafted each frame for a particular place on the wall?

answer: 80% of the frames are generic frames but not the bevels.

Do you think it is possible to generically build frames and then just hang them in the next available space (given rooms are not square/plum)?

answer: Like above most of the frames were generic. There were several places like the A/C return, door etc that required special frames. Even the back west corner has special frames.

Or do you see a problem with gaps being visible?

answer: You need to paint the wall behind the seams black for darker frames so if you do have a little gap here or there it is harder to see.

I like what you did in the corners but notice it required frames without the bevel on the inside edge - meaning special corner frames vs. generic. Can you envision a corner treatment that would allow an inside beveled edge?

answer: A non-beveled edge is very common throught the theater. Example; when a frame butts up against the soffit or a column, or door. So there all kinds of veration of your generic frames some have only one beveled edge, some have just he top and bottom, some have three side beveled. So the basic frame can be generic but a lot of frams are beveled for a unique spot on the wall.

Dave

Dave:

See comments above. Good luck with your project. Make sure you post lots of pictures. And keep the questions comming.

Today I'am redoing the front west corner. These were the first frames i made and they were not the greatest. Also had a rattel under the speaker when LEF hit in hard.
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post #188 of 915 Old 01-09-2006, 10:47 AM - Thread Starter
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There have been several question about the frames and how the corners are joined and how the bevels are done. So this weekend when i was fixing some of the very first frames I made i took some additional photos of the corners. The photo shows the lap joint with the MDF and plywood and shows one beveled edge.

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post #189 of 915 Old 01-09-2006, 11:00 AM
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Greg,

During your construction of frames and selecting a rotor bit did you ever try a roundover bit? From your latest photo it appears you used a chamfer bit.


Thanks...
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post #190 of 915 Old 01-09-2006, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DodgeViper View Post

Greg,

From your latest photo it appears you used a chamfer bit.


Thanks...


I believe Greg explains this back in post #17 . He began by making bevel cuts on the table saw and switched over to a router because of the cuts on multiple sides and how the chamfer bit created nicer corners..
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post #191 of 915 Old 01-10-2006, 07:07 AM
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Hi-

I had to post that your panels look great!

What kind of stapler did you use to attach the fabric onto the wood?

I'll be reading your FAQ later today.

Thanks!
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post #192 of 915 Old 01-10-2006, 09:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweakophyte View Post

Hi-

I had to post that your panels look great!

What kind of stapler did you use to attach the fabric onto the wood?

I'll be reading your FAQ later today.

Thanks!

Thanks for the kind comment. Regarding the stapler, I used an air power:

Craftsman 1/2 in. Crown 20 ga.
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post #193 of 915 Old 01-11-2006, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by GPowers View Post

Thanks for the kind comment. Regarding the stapler, I used an air power:

Craftsman 1/2 in. Crown 20 ga.


Hello-

I was wondering if you have a electric stapler to compare it with the air? Do you believe that an electric stapler will work in this application?

I think that I may do some fabric frames in my theater as well as a black GOM covering on the false wall up-front with the screen.

Thanks,
T.Wells

PS Not to beat it to death but your theater looks awesome. A true inspiration.
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post #194 of 915 Old 01-11-2006, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by T.Wells View Post

Hello-

I was wondering if you have a electric stapler to compare it with the air? Do you believe that an electric stapler will work in this application?


From what i've read in past threads, a pneumatic stapler is the way to go. They seem to be more sturdy and durable.
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post #195 of 915 Old 01-12-2006, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by ifeliciano View Post

From what i've read in past threads, a pneumatic stapler is the way to go. They seem to be more sturdy and durable.

Thanks, I will go that route.
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post #196 of 915 Old 01-12-2006, 11:00 AM - Thread Starter
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I was wondering if you have a electric stapler to compare it with the air? Do you believe that an electric stapler will work in this application?


Sorry I do not have an electric stapler to compare too. I looked at and a shopped both electric and pneumatic staplers. I came very close to purchasing an electric model, But the electric model were too heavy and bulky.

I also purchased a 1/2 crown model vs the 1/4 crown model. I use the stapler to apply 10s of thousands of staples. I not only used the stapler for the fabric, i also used to the staple up the insulation, sound board and the radiant barrier in the attic. So it was a well used tool.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GPowers View Post

Sorry I do not have an electric stapler to compare too. I looked at and a shopped both electric and pneumatic staplers. I came very close to purchasing an electric model, But the electric model were too heavy and bulky.

I also purchased a 1/2 crown model vs the 1/4 crown model. I use the stapler to apply 10s of thousands of staples. I not only used the stapler for the fabric, i also used to the staple up the insulation, sound board and the radiant barrier in the attic. So it was a well used tool.

Thanks Greg. That is great. I wanted to buy a pneumatic tool but was worried that I would use it once for the fabric and not use it again. I was hoping to use it for my vapor barrier as well (plastic) but I am afraid that it will shoot right through the stuff. I will give it a shot but my main purpose is for fabric and maybe even some of those great looking fabric frames.

-T.Wells
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post #198 of 915 Old 01-12-2006, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by T.Wells View Post

I was hoping to use it for my vapor barrier as well (plastic) but I am afraid that it will shoot right through the stuff. -T.Wells

This is also a reason why i went with the 1/2 crown staple. You can always back off on the air pressure to avoid shooting through the plastic.


When you start the fabric frames make sure you post some of the photos here.
Good luck and have fun.
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post #199 of 915 Old 01-13-2006, 06:42 AM
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Well I went out to see if 1 inch MDF could be purchased. Although it's available I would have to buy by the bunk and pay delivery charges. I have decided that I will laminate two 4 x 8 foot sheets of MDF and run the sheets through a pinch-roller, this bonding the two sheets together to form the 1 inch I need. Next I will rip the sheets down to strips.

I have decided I am going to use a Roundover router bit instead of the Chamfer bit to give a more rounded look much like in the Photoshop image I have posted below.

I should be able to get 22 - 2 strips that are 8 feet long from each laminated sheet of MDF. I will calculate the size of each frame once I have finished walls in place. I am going to follow Greg's first two rows, but after the second row I am going to make my frames in a vertical format from the top of the second row to the ceiling. This will cover the walls more quickly, spend less time making the frames, and use less MDF. The first two rows fom the floor I will use Linacoustic insulation while the large frames will have Polly Batten installed.

This image is what the finish walls would look like from floor to ceiling with the sheetrock walls painted black with the exception of the cloth color.

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post #200 of 915 Old 01-13-2006, 08:34 AM
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DodgeViper,

I like the look. Please post pics of your construction.

BTW -- what is a pinch-roller. I've never seen one of those. Does it just sandwich them together tightly with glue in the middle?
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post #201 of 915 Old 01-13-2006, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DodgeViper View Post

Well I went out to see if 1 inch MDF could be purchased. Although it's available I would have to buy by the bunk and pay delivery charges. I have decided that I will laminate two 4 x 8 foot sheets of MDF and run the sheets through a pinch-roller, this bonding the two sheets together to form the 1 inch I need. Next I will rip the sheets down to strips.




I like the layout you chose for the panels. The offset sizes gives the panel more depth and definition. On regards to the 1" MDF. You probably did already, but if not...Did you check the local cabinet maker supply or local hardwood supply ? They usually carry 1" MDF. Well at least here in my area (Dallas, TX) they do. Those 1" sheets are heavy as hell.
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post #202 of 915 Old 01-13-2006, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by swithey View Post

DodgeViper,

I like the look. Please post pics of your construction.

BTW -- what is a pinch-roller. I've never seen one of those. Does it just sandwich them together tightly with glue in the middle?

The pinch-roller is basically a press. Much like those rollers used at car washes that you would squeeze the water out of the towel. I will use a laminate glue to join the two MDF's together. The key to laminating is to make sure that both sheets are perfectly lined up. Once the two sheets come in contact with each other they will not come apart.

I have yet to start construction as I am in the process of gather information for the entire theater. The speakers of choice are not currently available, but I am hoping they will reach the USA soon
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post #203 of 915 Old 01-14-2006, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ifeliciano View Post

On regards to the 1" MDF. You probably did already, but if not...Did you check the local cabinet maker supply or local hardwood supply ? They usually carry 1" MDF. Well at least here in my area (Dallas, TX) they do. Those 1" sheets are heavy as hell.

Your right it that the hardwood and cabinet maker shops will have the 1" MDF, but the pricing may be inflated, but I will check it out.

In looking at Greg's frames it appears that he cut the strips of MDF and Plywood separately, this creating more work for himself in making the frames. By using either 1 MDF or by laminating two sheets of MDF or laminating MDF to Plywood the builder of frames can eliminate one additional process of making the frames.
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post #204 of 915 Old 01-14-2006, 10:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DodgeViper View Post

In looking at Greg's frames it appears that he cut the strips of MDF and Plywood separately, this creating more work for himself in making the frames. By using either 1 MDF or by laminating two sheets of MDF or laminating MDF to Plywood the builder of frames can eliminate one additional process of making the frames.

Each material (Plywood & MDF) was selected for a reason. The Plywood was selected for strength both along the length of the rails, holding the staples and the lap joint corners. The MDF was selected for a smooth surface after the edges were routered.
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post #205 of 915 Old 01-14-2006, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GPowers View Post

Each material (Plywood & MDF) was selected for a reason. The Plywood was selected for strength both along the length of the rails, holding the staples and the lap joint corners. The MDF was selected for a smooth surface after the edges were routered.

Greg,

I understand your method of putting together the frames using the different materials and using a lap joint. What I should have stated above, if the builder of frames were to use 1" MDF or two sheets of MDF laminated together they would need to biscuit or dowel pin the joints together.

Your method is strong, but more time consuming due to using a total of 8 pieces to make one frame and using the lap joint method in regards to using a biscuit machine. Personally I believe frames made of all MDF will work fine. It's not like the frames are barring any load on them. Securing cloth to MDF will work fine provided that a pneumatic stapler is used and the user has the ability to adjust air pressure so that the staple is seated correctly not tearing through the cloth material.

Many people may not have the tools I have suggested and the lap joint method is perfect. I am only stating a simpler approach to building frames provided they either own or have access to a biscuit machine, dowel jig, can laminate two sheets of whatever material they select, or able to purchase sheets of 1 MDF

In using 1 MDF the user only needs to rip the sheet of MDF into the proper widths, cut each piece to length, biscuit the four corners, apply glue, square the frame, allow to dry, and router outside edge.
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post #206 of 915 Old 01-15-2006, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by DodgeViper View Post

In using 1 MDF the user only needs to rip the sheet of MDF into the proper widths, cut each piece to length, biscuit the four corners, apply glue, square the frame, allow to dry, and router outside edge.

DodgeViper,

I considered the 1" approach until I read on some thread months ago that a guy tried this method. However, after making a few of them found that the 1" MDF had too much flex (when stretched with fabric). I do not know how he built them or if he had any type of support in the corners.

Myself, I'm going to play around with 1x2' on their edge (for a 1 1/2 depth ) for my 1" material. In the corners for added support, I was planning to put some short 2x2 and nail the thing together. I've also considered small triangles of 1/4 ply to reenforce if the above does not work. I'm not to that part in my project yet but will try a few ideas and possibly fall back on Greg's idea since it has been proven to work.

I'm with you on the the "4 pieces" vs. "8 pieces" model and the reduced work.
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post #207 of 915 Old 01-15-2006, 03:42 PM
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DodgeViper,

I considered the 1" approach until I read on some thread months ago that a guy tried this method. However, after making a few of them found that the 1" MDF had too much flex (when stretched with fabric). I do not know how he built them or if he had any type of support in the corners.

Myself, I'm going to play around with 1x2' on their edge (for a 1 1/2 depth ) for my 1" material. In the corners for added support, I was planning to put some short 2x2 and nail the thing together. I've also considered small triangles of 1/4 ply to reenforce if the above does not work. I'm not to that part in my project yet but will try a few ideas and possibly fall back on Greg's idea since it has been proven to work.

I'm with you on the the "4 pieces" vs. "8 pieces" model and the reduced work.

No doubt I will have to add a center cross member support in the taller frames. In regards to the triangles in the corners, you would not need to use 1/4" but 1/8" will ad plently of strength. I was going to make a frame and take pictures today but could not find the time, maybe next Sunday... Because of how I want to build my frames I will laminate 1/2 MDF and 1/2 cabinet grade plywood together and then rip the sheets on the tablesaw.
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post #208 of 915 Old 01-15-2006, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by DodgeViper View Post

No doubt I will have to add a center cross member support in the taller frames. In regards to the triangles in the corners, you would not need to use 1/4" but 1/8" will ad plently of strength. I was going to make a frame and take pictures today but could not find the time, maybe next Sunday... Because of how I want to build my frames I will laminate 1/2 MDF and 1/2 cabinet grade plywood together and then rip the sheets on the tablesaw.

Please take pics of your frames. I will be making mine in the next 3-4 weeks and would love to see how your design turns out.
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post #209 of 915 Old 01-15-2006, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DodgeViper View Post

No doubt I will have to add a center cross member support in the taller frames. In regards to the triangles in the corners, you would not need to use 1/4" but 1/8" will ad plently of strength. I was going to make a frame and take pictures today but could not find the time, maybe next Sunday... Because of how I want to build my frames I will laminate 1/2 MDF and 1/2 cabinet grade plywood together and then rip the sheets on the tablesaw.

If your going to have to add center supports anyway, why not just use 1"X2" pine?
For that matter, to get your 1" depth for the insulation, just nail 1"X2" pine strips directly to the wall. and attach your 1"X2" fabric frames to the 1"x2" strips on the wall.
Just trying to cut down on the labor.

Mike
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post #210 of 915 Old 01-15-2006, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DodgeViper View Post

No doubt I will have to add a center cross member support in the taller frames. In regards to the triangles in the corners, you would not need to use 1/4" but 1/8" will ad plently of strength. I was going to make a frame and take pictures today but could not find the time, maybe next Sunday... Because of how I want to build my frames I will laminate 1/2 MDF and 1/2 cabinet grade plywood together and then rip the sheets on the tablesaw.

If your going to have to add center supports anyway, why not just use 1"X 2" pine?
For that matter, to get your 1" depth for the insulation, just nail 1"X 2" pine strips directly to the wall. and attach your 1"X 2" fabric frames to the 1"x2" strips on the wall.
Just trying to cut down on the labor.

Mike
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