the definitive Grafik Eye master thread!! - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 1437 Old 10-14-2006, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_Kellogg View Post

I'm getting ready to put lighting up and want to know how I should do the wiring. With a GE do I do one run from each light to the GE or bundle lights into zones and bring one wire for each zone to the GE?

One per zone. The lumineres (lights) are daisy-chained.

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post #272 of 1437 Old 10-14-2006, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by DMILANI View Post

Sorry, I must not have been clear. I want to remove the hinged part (flip up part) from one GE cover plate and exchange it with the hinged part of another.

That's the question Rick answered. The cover just snaps into the faceplate.

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post #273 of 1437 Old 10-14-2006, 05:03 PM
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DMF, I don't think so.

Rick talks about prying from either the top or the bottom. That doesn't make sense. The hinges are only attached at the upper left/right corners of the cover. It seems as if everyone hear is still talking about just removing the entire cover (hinged top part and the fixed part below). Of course I can do this or else I wouldn't have been able to install it.

To be clear (I'm failing I think), I have two cover plates for my GE. One all grey that I bought separately to match my decor, and one that's white on the bottom and black translucent on the top (stock color that came with the original GE). I want to "make" a cover that's grey on the bottom and black translucent on the top. So I need to unhinge the flap on one and replace it with the flap on the other.

Is this still what everyone is talking about? If so, I'll shut up and just yank the thing off.

Thank again,
-D
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post #274 of 1437 Old 10-15-2006, 06:39 PM - Thread Starter
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I have not changed just the upper part of the cover...
I definitely thought that you were having trouble removing the entire cover.

You might be able to get the upper part off the cover wthoiut breaking it, but I wouldn't guarantee that it is possible...

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post #275 of 1437 Old 10-17-2006, 11:52 AM
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You're right. I just looked at one. It's not the plastic hinge I thought, but a metal pin acting as the joint pivot. I don't see a way to get it out, unless you whittle the hinge down far enough to grab it.

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post #276 of 1437 Old 10-24-2006, 06:03 PM
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Have read this entire thread and many others and spent quite a bit of time on Lutron's site. It's starting to make more sense to me, but there are two questions I have not been able to get a clear understanding of:

Can the GE (probably a 3106) be wired from multiple circuits?

The way I have it drawn up now, my six zones would be:
Zone 1 - 7 can lights in theater area [CIRCUIT 1 (20A)]
Zone 2 - 3 can lights in front of screen [CIRCUIT 2 (20A)]
Zone 3 - 5 Sconces [CIRCUIT 2 (20A)]
Zone 4 - Rope Lights around stage and riser [CIRCUIT 2 (20A)]
Zone 5 - 8 can lights in main basement area [CIRCUIT 3 (20A)]
Zone 6 - ??? possibly the bar area (also on separate circuit)

It has to be able to accept at least two, right? Otherwise the 2000 total watts could not be maximized.

Would really appreciate clarification on this point.


Second question...How do you wire rope lights the GE. Do rope lights get hard-wired directly to the GE just like the can lights?

Thanks very much for help with these questions and for all the great info in this thread...has been a huge help!

Mark
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post #277 of 1437 Old 10-24-2006, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mprusak View Post

Second question...How do you wire rope lights the GE. Do rope lights get hard-wired directly to the GE just like the can lights?

Not 100% certain on your first question, but I CAN give you some advice. Whatever size AWG wire you use to power the Eye, the same size HAS to be used to wire all subsequent lights controlled by the Eye. This is a code thing as you don't want the Eye to be able to provide more power down stream than a cable can handle.


As far as the rope light question:

Since rope lights have a standard indoor extension cable looking wire...it is against code to hard wire that wire into a wall outlet. That wire is not rated to be in a wall or conduit. To get around this, I simply hard wired standard outlets (using Romex wire) to my Eye and plugged the rope lights cord into those outlets. I actually did the same for some "under cabinet" lights I used under my soffit. They both dim beautifully and do not hum since both are incandescent lights.
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post #278 of 1437 Old 10-25-2006, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mprusak View Post

Can the GE (probably a 3106) be wired from multiple circuits?

The way I have it drawn up now, my six zones would be:
Zone 1 - 7 can lights in theater area [CIRCUIT 1 (20A)]
Zone 2 - 3 can lights in front of screen [CIRCUIT 2 (20A)]
Zone 3 - 5 Sconces [CIRCUIT 2 (20A)]
Zone 4 - Rope Lights around stage and riser [CIRCUIT 2 (20A)]
Zone 5 - 8 can lights in main basement area [CIRCUIT 3 (20A)]
Zone 6 - ??? possibly the bar area (also on separate circuit)

It has to be able to accept at least two, right? Otherwise the 2000 total watts could not be maximized.

A single 20A circuit can nominally supply 2400W. We use 80% or 1920W for safety.

You can drive the loads with multiple circuits, but only indirectly by using a power booster module such as NGRX-PB on the load side of the GE. So technically a single 3n06 can drive 6x1920W with a PB on each zone. (Or more; I think you can use multiple PBs on each zone.)

Unless your total load would exceed the capacity of a single circuit though, there is no need for more than one circuit. Your zone design is half finished. Calculate the maximum power consumption for each zone, then decide if you need boosters. I rather doubt that you do.

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post #279 of 1437 Old 10-27-2006, 05:37 AM
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I need about 70ft of PELV cable for my system. Does anyone have extra that I could buy from them? I have a 3103 and need the 18 awg two twisted pair PELV cable to go from the GE to the accessory panel.
If anyone has some, please PM me.
I cut a corner and used 18 awg 4 conductor wire and they're not twisted pairs so I now fear that I will get communication problems.
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post #280 of 1437 Old 10-28-2006, 08:11 AM
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Quote:


A single 20A circuit can nominally supply 2400W. We use 80% or 1920W for safety.

You can drive the loads with multiple circuits, but only indirectly by using a power booster module such as NGRX-PB on the load side of the GE. So technically a single 3n06 can drive 6x1920W with a PB on each zone. (Or more; I think you can use multiple PBs on each zone.)

Unless your total load would exceed the capacity of a single circuit though, there is no need for more than one circuit. Your zone design is half finished. Calculate the maximum power consumption for each zone, then decide if you need boosters. I rather doubt that you do.

OK, so I calculated my total load...as you suggest, I would be well under the safe total of 1920 W. However, per local code, I am limited to 10 fixtures per circuit, which brings me back to needing three separate circuits.

So, these power boosters are my option around this? I'll have to start looking into them.

Thanks,
Mark
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post #281 of 1437 Old 10-30-2006, 01:38 PM
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I wonder if a "fixture" under the rule refers to high-voltage (120V) devices? You can get recessed lights that run off a single step-down transformer (vs. the more common model of a transformer in each can). The lights themselves never see more than 12V. That might count as one fixture. LV track lights do it that way. Does each bulb on the track count as a fixture? What about each tube in an fluorescent fixture?

Might be a question worth asking an inspector.

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post #282 of 1437 Old 11-08-2006, 07:50 AM
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If one is using the two-box method, is it still neccesary to use the extra deep boxes? I'm thinking since I am using EMT conduit (no grounding wires) and two boxes, that standard boxes should be fine...sound right?

Thanks,

Mark
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post #283 of 1437 Old 11-14-2006, 01:33 PM
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One more question/clarification...I can use 1 power booster to feed two different zones on the GE, right?
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post #284 of 1437 Old 11-18-2006, 05:26 PM
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No. One Power Booster per zone. The zone controls the PB, the PB does not "feed" the zone(s).

You might be able to get by with a standard box, but I recommend the deep box anyway. Why would you not want to use the deep box??

Remember, the second box doesn't have to be a 4-gang box (or whatever size is appropriate for your GE). It just has to be big enough for all the wires that go into it. (See the posts about calculating "box fill". A 4 11/16" square, deep box will handle the wiring for 6 zones. Also be sure that the second box is exposed and accessible.

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post #285 of 1437 Old 11-19-2006, 09:47 AM
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Replacement faceplates for Grafik Eye are available at Electric Supply Online, priced between $32 and $45. Both translucent and opaque in standard colors.

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post #286 of 1437 Old 11-20-2006, 04:25 PM
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I've been told by some custom installers that Grafik Eye 3106 can be wired directly into a DIMMABLE Electronic Low-Voltage Transformer, without the need of the ELVI-1000. Has anybody seen/heard of such an installation?
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post #287 of 1437 Old 11-20-2006, 05:04 PM
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I would call Lutron before assuming that would work. I'm aware that some of the new electronic transformers will work with line voltage dimmers, but have not run into an installation where these new electronic ballasts were used and I was installing a G.E. Let us know what you find out.

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post #288 of 1437 Old 11-20-2006, 06:57 PM
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....if one is using 14 ga stranded wires for the 120V wiring runs from the controller to the second box for each zone, is it considered good practice to use crimp-on spade lugs to make with the screw terminal connections on the GE?

Are Eleven Channels Really Enough?

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post #289 of 1437 Old 11-21-2006, 03:25 AM
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The G.E. clamps down on the wire when the screw is tightened so a forked terminal is unnecessary.
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post #290 of 1437 Old 11-21-2006, 06:52 AM
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Whenever I see products like this, I'm drawn back to the time of mainframe computors, clunky four button remotes, and those huge wall intercoms of the past.

Though, I like to max out my power amps & screens, I tend to be minimalistic with my lighting controls. There must be products available that don't scream for attention, are there?

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post #291 of 1437 Old 11-24-2006, 07:28 PM
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Sounds like a personal problem to me.



Fwiw, miniaturization of power control products has never tracked that of logic products. Maybe a 1967 mainframe will now fit on your tie clasp (you remember ties, don't you), but a 1kVA transformer is still a 20 lb. lump of metal.

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post #292 of 1437 Old 11-25-2006, 05:04 AM
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Look at the Colorado Vnet stuff. Their controls are not smaller but they do blend in better.
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post #293 of 1437 Old 11-26-2006, 08:44 PM
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OK...So I was all set to use the Spacer System for my lighting control until I started reading this thread about the GE. I'm interested but think there might be some limitations that would rule out GE in favor of the Spacer System, but I'm open to suggestions.

I'm finishing a large room in my walkout level that will include a HT, wetbar, kitchen and game table area. This room is at the bottom of the stairs and provides access (walk through) to some guest BR's, home office, and workshop.

I am ending up with 9 lighting zones that need control, but several of those zones need to be switchable from two locations, and a couple from three. The stair lights need to be controled from three (3) locations, and I can't get low voltage wiring to one of those areas without some SERIOUS demolition (that is not going to happen).

So I need light control at 4 different locations, one of which is at the top of the stairs, with no access for low voltage wiring. Using Spacer System I can do it for about $800 in controls.

Is it even possible to do this with the GE?

One advantage I see in using Spacer System, is that the switches can be easily used by guests (and the Mrs.) without any learning curve. I'm not sure the same holds true for the GE. But I hope you guys will fill me in.

Thanks in advance

Frank
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post #294 of 1437 Old 11-26-2006, 10:23 PM
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I just ordered a 3104 and I am working out my wiring plan now. Initially I'm not going to install any keypads but I want to be able to add them in the future. I read in the manual that all accessories need to be daisy chained using the PELV cable. Is it possible to to run homeruns to the accessories that all come back to a junction box above the GE unit. My plan was to run smurf tube to all of the future wall plate locations then pull the PELV once the keypads are installed. Also has anyone installed a dimmable receptacle as a zone on their GE?
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post #295 of 1437 Old 11-27-2006, 07:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlord66 View Post

My plan was to run smurf tube to all of the future wall plate locations then pull the PELV once the keypads are installed.

Many areas do not allow smurf tubing for high voltage boxes... Even though the cable and accessory controls are LV, it ultimately needs to be mated to an HV box at the GRX location.

Quote:


Also has anyone installed a dimmable receptacle as a zone on their GE?

If you do this, be sure to set the zone up for the appropriate load, and PLEASE use a dimming receptacle with the "lump" that requires you to change out the lamp cord with the special mating plug.

That way you will prevent a house guest, housekeeper, etc. from plugging a vacuum cleaner, air conditioner, TV. etc. into a dimmed outlet.

Dimmed outlets + electronics/motors/compressors = smoke.

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post #296 of 1437 Old 11-27-2006, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cinemascope View Post

Many areas do not allow smurf tubing for high voltage boxes... Even though the cable and accessory controls are LV, it ultimately needs to be mated to an HV box at the GRX location.


If you do this, be sure to set the zone up for the appropriate load, and PLEASE use a dimming receptacle with the "lump" that requires you to change out the lamp cord with the special mating plug.

That way you will prevent a house guest, housekeeper, etc. from plugging a vacuum cleaner, air conditioner, TV. etc. into a dimmed outlet.

Dimmed outlets + electronics/motors/compressors = smoke.


Yes I plan on getting Lutrons receptacle with the lump. Whats the best way to terminate the LV in the junction box? Can I just use Wire nuts or is there a better way?
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post #297 of 1437 Old 11-28-2006, 09:20 AM
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Wire nuts work fine if you use the right sizes. The wires are 18 AWG (power), 22 (signal), 24 (drain).

But I have to ask why? The only two things they should ever terminate to are a wallstation, with its own connectors, and another PELV cable for a splice. But you said you're planning on end-running rather than daisy chaining.

IMO, if you're going to set the wallstation boxes now, then you should wire them now - without smurf tube. (If you must do conduit, do metal.) You can do end-run, but that takes a lot of cable and the Lutron PELV isn't cheap. To daisy-chain without installing a wallstation, just pull a loop down into the box and leave it. Then cut the loop when you install the wallstation.

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post #298 of 1437 Old 11-28-2006, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FThera View Post

OK...So I was all set to use the Spacer System for my lighting control until I started reading this thread about the GE. ...

I am ending up with 9 lighting zones that need control, but several of those zones need to be switchable from two locations, and a couple from three. The stair lights need to be controled from three (3) locations, and I can't get low voltage wiring to one of those areas without some SERIOUS demolition (that is not going to happen).

So I need light control at 4 different locations, one of which is at the top of the stairs, with no access for low voltage wiring. Using Spacer System I can do it for about $800 in controls.

Is it even possible to do this with the GE?

One advantage I see in using Spacer System, is that the switches can be easily used by guests (and the Mrs.) without any learning curve. I'm not sure the same holds true for the GE. But I hope you guys will fill me in.

The essential difference is that Grafik Eye adds digital control to your lighting, while Spacer System is strictly manual. Anything you can do with SS you can do with GE, and GE can do much more.

Your application is a complex one. The questions are, what do you need it to do, and how easily/cheaply can that be done? For newbies, half the battle is learning what you can do with Grafik Eye. Your design will evolve as you do. If you have the time you can continue your learning curve (there's lots more to learn). Or you can hire someone who knows the system's capabilities while you concentrate on defining what you want to accomplish. I'll make some comments for you to consider.

The sole advantage of Spacer System is that it retrofits to an existing room with little additional work. Since you are finishing (most of) your room, that advantage disappears. When you do the final costing, SS can be a bit cheaper than the equivalent GE, but it can also be more expensive.

That location you "can't get to" with LV? How much you want to bet?

You might end up with a mixed system, and with 9 zones to control you will need at least two GEs. But that's not a difficult design issue since GEs talk to each other and the second one can be made to act as a direct extension of the first.

There's no need to expose the GE as a general-use control. It can be placed in a closet and the scenes selected by wallstation or remote control - IR or RF.

There are 16 directly addressable scenes in a GE, and with two there can be considerably more, depending on how the two are linked.

Walk-through lighting (including the stairway) can be handled in an integrated GE (not Spacer) system by defining a scene that brings up the walk-through zone while leaving the other zones untouched, and another scene that takes the walk-through zone down while leaving the other zones untouched. No need for three- (or four-) way wiring.

There is a vast array of wallstations (switches, keypads) for GE, many two-button. Surely some one of them will satisfy...

By adding a GRX-PRG to the system, you add computer programming and control, and an astronomical clock. One of the coolest features of such a system is that you can bring up the ambient lighting around dark so you never have to enter a dark room.

There are also occupancy sensors that will turn on the lights when you enter a zone (e.g. the stairway) without manual action at all.

For various reasons, target the 3500 series rather than the 3100 or 2000 series, if at all possible.

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post #299 of 1437 Old 11-28-2006, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DMF View Post

Wire nuts work fine if you use the right sizes. The wires are 18 AWG (power), 22 (signal), 24 (drain).

But I have to ask why? The only two things they should ever terminate to are a wallstation, with its own connectors, and another PELV cable for a splice. But you said you're planning on end-running rather than daisy chaining.

IMO, if you're going to set the wallstation boxes now, then you should wire them now - without smurf tube. (If you must do conduit, do metal.) You can do end-run, but that takes a lot of cable and the Lutron PELV isn't cheap. To daisy-chain without installing a wallstation, just pull a loop down into the box and leave it. Then cut the loop when you install the wallstation.


Thanks for the suggestions. I'm going to look over my setup again and see if I can plan it out a little differantly. Any ideas on the best place to find Lutron PELV or the Liberty Green. I don't need alot so I would probably buy it by the foot.
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post #300 of 1437 Old 11-29-2006, 07:09 AM
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