the definitive Grafik Eye master thread!! - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 1453 Old 07-11-2005, 09:15 AM
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Too bad you can't get a GE with SeeTouch buttons...

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post #32 of 1453 Old 07-11-2005, 10:03 PM
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To expand on the method Toxarch described in the thread - http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ght=grafik+eye

For those of us using Universal Remote RF remotes the IR emitters that come with the MRF-250 (and I assume their other receivers) split in half easily to reveal a much smaller IR diode as pictured below that should fit nicely under the faceplate of the Grafik Eye.
You could even file it down a bit more from the approximately 2.5mm to about 2mm without much trouble.



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post #33 of 1453 Old 07-12-2005, 05:52 AM
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One of the nice things about having a wall station is you can use it to access scenes 5-8, 9-12, or 13-16. As I stated before, I have 2 GE units and 2 wall stations. The wall stations are located at the bottom of the stairs so I can enter the basement, hit two buttons, and light the whole floor. Wall station #1, for the general areas addresses scenes 1-4 for GE #1. On the other hand, the wall station #2, for the HT addresses scenes 5-8, 3 of which are ambient/pre-show scenes which can draw you in (or keep you out) of the HT.

You don't need a wall station to take advantage of additional scenes. You can also use an IR remote to access scenes 5-8. I believe there are codes somewhere.

It gets more fun...
If I wanted I could have GE #1 "listen" to both wall stations, as well as listen to GE#2, while GE#2 only listens to one wall station. By doing that I could hit a scene in the HT and change the whole floor. If I had a remote I could hit scene 5 (for example) in the HT and set the whole floor. Permutations, permutations, permutations...


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post #34 of 1453 Old 07-12-2005, 09:28 AM - Thread Starter
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As a small addition to the IR reveiver tip that have been detailed by Mac medic and Toxarch, I would also add that when you have the emitter disassembled (see Mac medic's post prior to this) and routed on the front of the GRX as Toxarch posted, you can avoid the bulge under the faceplate by placing a neat strip of good black elec tape (3M Super 33+ is the pros choice, and don't tear here, use scissors for a neat cut) over the emitter head and then pop out the little translucent black circular window in the cover.

Hopefully on the first try you will get the emitter to seat into the hole left by the translucent eye and the cover will sit flush and the black tape over the little bulge of the emitter will fill the hole on the face and you cannot tell that the window is gone.

This may take a minute or two a tweaking to acheive the perfect fit and perfect look, but that's what we do right??

Trust me, this looks great. I have done many this way.

I will get a pic up of a cover I modded like this sometime in the next couple weeks.

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post #35 of 1453 Old 07-12-2005, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cinemascope View Post

you can avoid the bulge under the faceplate by placing a neat strip of good black elec tape (3M Super 33+ is the pros choice, and don't tear here, use scissors for a neat cut) over the emitter head and then pop out the little translucent black circular window in the cover.

Hopefully on the first try you will get the emitter to seat into the hole left by the translucent eye and the cover will sit flush and the black tape over the little bulge of the emitter will fill the hole on the face and you cannot tell that the window is gone.

This may take a minute or two a tweaking to acheive the perfect fit and perfect look, but that's what we do right??

Trust me, this looks great. I have done many this way.

I will get a pic up of a cover I modded like this sometime in the next couple weeks.

Personally, I prefer to use coax seal in place of tape or glue but to each his own.

Alan
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post #36 of 1453 Old 07-12-2005, 08:55 PM
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Coax seal looks like a great solution for many things!

For those of you who don't know what it is (I had to Google it) here is the description from Parts Express (and the link to buy it):

Coax-Seal is a special material which will quickly and effectively seal all types of coaxial fittings of any shape from moisture, water and corrosion. Coax-Seal stays flexible for years thus insuring moisture proof connections. Insures good SWR and long coax life. Coax-Seal also allows you to disconnect and reconnect fittings with the same material by simply re-forming the plastic. Coax-Seal is the only material that will adhere to vinyl and poly vinyl connector outer covers. Coax-Seal is non-toxic, non-corrosive, non-conducting, and has hundreds of uses in electronics. 1/2" x 60". Stays flexible at any temperature.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=180-205

BTW - Parts Express is a pleasure to deal with (and no, I don't work there).

I've learned more on this Forum form guys like audiblesolutions, Cinemascope, Dennis, etc than I have from years of reading trade magazines - Thanks again!

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post #37 of 1453 Old 07-12-2005, 11:47 PM - Thread Starter
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I use that stuff outdoors quite a bit, but I have never thought to use it in this application...
I bet it would also work well to keep the cover flat and straight if you busted any of the snap mounts.

Actually, I picked up a roll of gaffers tape and use that quite a bit as well, I would think that cutting a thin strip of gaffers tape would probably work very well to keep that emitter lead in place.

Anyone not familiar, It is basically cloth based duct tape, it's black, it sticks better than duct tape, and it's anywhere from $9 to $20 per roll.

It doesn't let go over time like e-tape does (unless it's wrapped, lightly stretching a good tape like Super 33+ by applying tension as you wrap it makes it stick forever).

I will be the first to say that any brand of e-tape on a flat surface is not the best solution.

The e-tape over the emitter works well, because it looks like the window that was removed when it bulges into that hole.

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post #38 of 1453 Old 07-14-2005, 10:39 AM
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I noticed at the very top of this thread several people (including the author) believe the Spacer System won't save any money.

My question is, if I only have 3-4 zones and really only want 3-4 scenes....I would have to spend +600$ even on the bottom end GE as apposed to less than 400$ with the Spacer. (4 dimmers and master control)

Am I missing something about the Spacer System that is going to substantially increase the cost and offset this several hundred dollar difference?

Thx,
Dan
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post #39 of 1453 Old 07-14-2005, 04:46 PM
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This is a question that should not be in a "definitive" GE thread. Better to begin a new thread or post this question in one of the other Grafik Eye threads extant. Without getting into all the details, there is a lot more electronics in a GE than just an additional 12 scenes, low voltage network, size and type of loads it can dim. There are significant differences in the type and kind of filtering in a GE as opposed as System Spacer, the components by which that dimming is accomplished and the coarseness of the dimming intensity. There is an obvious difference between the aesthetics of the two systems.

Alan
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post #40 of 1453 Old 07-14-2005, 07:05 PM
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Alan,

Thanks for the response. Your reply is good information that (IMHO) kinda does belong in this thread as it directly relates to the advantages of the GE.

In any case...I do really apprciate your help.

Dan
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post #41 of 1453 Old 07-14-2005, 08:04 PM
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Stima, your numbers are questionable. The GRX-2404 (Grafik Eye) is only $380 online (Lutron dealer).

And see my numbers in this thread.

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post #42 of 1453 Old 07-14-2005, 09:47 PM
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DMF,

I am beginning to believe I looked at some of the higher priced e-retailers. I saw the MSRP's listed and found a couple retailers (Georgia Home Theaters was one) who listed the same price...so I (incorrectly) assumed the MSRP was the going price for GE's.

I appreciate your reference to the price breakdown as well. I believe my system would be slightly simpler (no remote switches or accessories). I figured the price at $67x3 + $105 master + $75 remote = $380. At the time, this was several hundred dollars less than what I found for even the cheapest GE.

In either case, thanks as well for your input.

Dan

PS. Noticed your in Atlanta...as am I.
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post #43 of 1453 Old 07-15-2005, 09:00 AM
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Some questions about remote controlling the GEs.

The attic conversion I am having done is a roughly an L-shaped room. The back part of the room (the long part of the L) will have a pool table and a poker table, and have 4-5 lighting zones. The front part of the room is slightly lower and will be a front projection area and it will have 4 lighting zones.

If I use a GE to contol the back part of the room and a separate GE to control the front part, will I be able to independently control each GE with my Pronto remote?
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post #44 of 1453 Old 07-15-2005, 09:47 AM
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That's a Pronto question. Ask in the Remotes Controls forum.

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post #45 of 1453 Old 07-15-2005, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DMF View Post

That's a Pronto question. Ask in the Remotes Controls forum.

No, it's actually a GE question. I know a pronto can control a single GE. I want to know if two GEs, installed in the same room, can be independently controlled via remote. E.g., I want GE #1 to do a full power off but GE#2 to remain as is -- if I use a remote to do that, will both GEs end up doing a full power off (because they both saw the ir signal for full power off).

I know that if you have two single location Spacer dimmers in the same room, they both will react to a remote control signal. There is no way to have one Spacer ignore signals intended for the other if they are both in the line of sight of the IR signal.
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post #46 of 1453 Old 07-15-2005, 11:53 AM
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This thread is not for general discussion of the GE et al. Start a different thread. If some good info arises from it, we'll incorporate here.

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post #47 of 1453 Old 07-16-2005, 03:25 AM
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Quote:


I know a pronto can control a single GE. I want to know if two GEs, installed in the same room, can be independently controlled via remote. E.g., I want GE #1 to do a full power off but GE#2 to remain as is

Yes, this is possible. In fact, you can link the two GE's together and have them perform as a single unit if you want.

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post #48 of 1453 Old 07-16-2005, 05:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

Yes, this is possible. In fact, you can link the two GE's together and have them perform as a single unit if you want.

I disagree with this advice--although it can be done. The problem with linking together Grafik Eyes without some processor in between is the off button. Press off on linked Grafik Eyes and both turn off. They will not be independent unless you talk to them via serial or with a Homeworks processor. If you place 2 Grafik Eyes on the same Mux link and fire an IR code or press a button both units will respond. If you use an accessory control and "assign" that control to a GE you may get around that problem with clever scene programming ( such as program scenes 13-16 in one but 9-12 in the other. )

There is only one IR driver in Lutron world. Ok, Spacer has a few different IR codes than Grafik Eyes so maybe 1.5 is a more accurate answer. The only way to separate this problem is the same way you would any device with the same IR code set and that is a zone IR controller. If you want truly independent control you will accomplish that ONLY by using all 16 scenes and programming them differently on each GE, eg., scenes 5-10 on the first and 11-16 on the second.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMF View Post


This thread is not for general discussion of the GE et al. Start a different thread. If some good info arises from it, we'll incorporate here.

I should think that IR control of a GE or how to program a GE or multiple GEs for IR should be part of a "definitive" Grafik Eye thread. It certainly seems more germane than a comparison with System Spacer.

Alan
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post #49 of 1453 Old 07-16-2005, 11:06 AM
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Of course it is. But he asked about a Pronto. You want to cover every remote on this thread?

As I understand it, each GE can be given a separate address on the MUX line, which is how e.g. the Homeworks processor can talk to them separately. *If* that address can be incorporated into the IR command set, then they can be addressed individually (for those functions that incorporate the address).

Hmm. I guess you have a point. The potential command set is defined by Lutron, not by the remote makers.

Where can we find a definition of the GE command set?

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post #50 of 1453 Old 07-16-2005, 11:10 AM
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Btw, the GRX-CIR (ceiling mounted IR remote) claims to be able to address individual GEs. It lives on the MUX line.

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post #51 of 1453 Old 07-16-2005, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DMF View Post

Btw, the GRX-CIR (ceiling mounted IR remote) claims to be able to address individual GEs. It lives on the MUX line.

The IR command set does NOT include the Addressing 1-8. A remote sending a GE IR code is very much like a Tivo IR code. ( Don't go to the multiple IR codes for Tivo because there are but one IR code in the GE world. Send a GE IR code and all units receiving that code respond. ).

You wish to add GRX-CIR and you have hit upon one IR solution. But a zone IR controller would also work but it forces you to go to the extra work of placing an emitter inside the electrical box and inside the GE.

This is a very old com link. Serial control and quasi serial control is what occurs in a Homeworks system ( it mimics the IA serial command protocol ) which is how Homeworks gets around the comm bus limitations of a Grafik Eye bus. Hell, install a Crestron or AMX control system with a GRX-232 ( now referred to as the GRX-IA-232 ) and you can approximate this control. Or use some IR to serial converter box with a serial to MUX link interface. However, if you remain on the MUX link without sending serial commands there are serious limitations as to what you can accomplish if you expect to control multiple units interconnected on the MUX link. To get around this issue, many years ago I used multiple GRX-AVs. The MUX link is a versatile useful addition--and an other reason to prefer a GE over a system spacer in a theater application ( contact closures can be very useful, especially for controlling shades/drapes ) but you will want to take special care when dealing with multiple GEs. The problem is that the more you kludge the system to work as you need the better the idea of a Homeworks processor, or real control system appears. Even with you guys going to E-tailers and ebay this can become a very expensive solution if more than one unit is required.

I do not deal with Prontos but is it not a fancy universal remote little different from a hard coded remote save for its ( useless ) graphical abilities? Do not all of these kinds of remotes (Pronto, URC, Universal Electronics or Radio Shack ) not do the same thing? As in send an IR command to the device? I do not care if it's a Crestron system sending the IR code. As long as that command can be received by multiple units they will all be affected. THE ONLY TIME THIS IS NOT THE CASE IS WHEN YOU BURY AN emitter INSIDE EACH UNIT AND TRANSMIT THE CODE SEPARATELY. Send that code out of a universal remote --which is what you DIYs prefer to do -- and all main units whose receivers receive that code will respond. Send it directly to an emitter buried in the main unit and only that unit will respond. If you have an IR repeater system you will need to use a zone IR system.

No one has covered the arcane method of adding accessory controls to a main unit. It does involve more than setting the dip switches for the scenes that unit will control.

Alan
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post #52 of 1453 Old 07-17-2005, 06:20 AM
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Cinemascope ...
You might want to add information on the Partition Control and Radio RA GE and GE Radio RA interface adaptor.

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post #53 of 1453 Old 07-17-2005, 11:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Joealtus,
Your scenario can be easily solved with the GRX-IRI interface.

Run a MUX link cable from each GRX to the rack, or wherever you have installed your Pronto's base station.

You will be placing an emitter right on the back of this unit INSIDE the box, but since this is an entirely low voltage box, there are no issues in doing this.

The GRX-IRI is one of only two Accessory Controls that allows use of the new Pro-IR commands that allows you to directly control scenes, master raise/lower, and all off to any single GRX on the MUX system, as well as to all GRX units on the MUX system.

The other Accessory control is the SeeTouch SG-PRO, which is also an attractive 4 scene plus all off control with master raise/lower. In comparison with the GRX-IRI that can be accept a stick on emitter, this unit receives line of sight only through it's IR receiver on the face.

These two controls are the ONLY devices that allow this as of today, and this is the best way to get around the situation Alan describes above without relying on an advanced routing scheme from the base station of a powerful remote system like the RTI RP-6 or URC MRF-300 bases. (I am personally not as familiar with Pronto base programming, perhaps someone can elaborate)

The biggest advantage is that if you ever change remotes (and we never do that, do we??) then you will only have to address the GRX-IRI instead of re-creating the entire elaborate prgram in the new system.

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post #54 of 1453 Old 07-17-2005, 11:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

Cinemascope ...
You might want to add information on the Partition Control and Radio RA GE and GE Radio RA interface adaptor.

I have not even SEEN a partition control that I can recall.
Leave it to Dennis to give me homework!!

I'm on it.

As for the RadioRa interfaces, I am very familiar with these and I will draft a detailed post and place it later tonight.

--Rick.

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post #55 of 1453 Old 07-17-2005, 04:10 PM
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Hmm. Now that I read between the lines, the GRX-CIR spec doesn't actually say that it can control *discrete* GEs, rather " Selects scenes in just one Control Unit or a group of up to eight Control Units." You could read that as saying that it sends the scene number to everything it's linked to.

It can map the scenes numbers that are in the IR set to those that aren't.

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post #56 of 1453 Old 07-21-2005, 01:43 PM
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I had a long chat with Lutron about how to order the metal finish options and custom engraving (button labels) for seeTouch® wallstations. I believe these procedures apply to the other product lines, too.
  • The metal finishes are available by special order only. A special order takes about 6 weeks longer to fill.
  • While it appears from the online document that wallstation special colors are ordered by code (e.g. -QZ for antique bronze), this is not true (as a later version of the document supposedly makes clear; I haven't seen it). The color code in a wallstation order may not include a special finish. E.g. SG-4SN-SN... is an invalid code.
  • Only the faceplate is the special color/finish.┬╣ "Insert" models use a standard R3 Decora cutout which leaves non-button surface exposed. "Non-insert" models use wallplate cutouts specific to the wallstation - only buttons are exposed. (The Insert models are recommended for multi-gang installations, but it appears to be possible to order Non-insert multi-gang metal plates using the Insert codes.)
  • To order a special finish wallstation generate two line items, one for the wallstation and the other for the faceplate:
    • Order the wallstation in the basic color that you want for the buttons and (in the case of Insert models) the insert (e.g. for the metal finishes, Black). The wallstation will come with a single-gang plastic wallplate of that color that is discarded at installation. E.g. to order a -4S Insert wallstation in satin nickel with black buttons, first order SG-4SI-BL-...
    • Order the special finish wallplate. The ordering code for wallplates is a concatenation of NT + list of Insert codes + Spacing code + Color code. A simplex bright chrome Decora plate is NT-R3-FB-BC. (FB is standard spacing.) A duplex satin nickel Decora plate is NT-R3R3-FB-SN.
  • Not all wallstations have the same shape cutout. There is a separate doument for the codes to specify non-insert wallplate cutouts but it is not in the general catalog or online. Contact Lutron Tech Support for the appropriate code.
  • There is a $200 per order "setup charge", even for wallplates that are otherwise standard Claro shapes.
  • To give an idea of the costs, a simplex special finish wallplate lists at $100. A duplex special finish wallplate lists at $160.
  • Non-standard Engraving (button text) lists at $70. This is probably per wallstation.
  • It is possible to change button/insert/wallplate colors after installation. These are the SR- series of kits.
  • Like the special finishes, non-standard engraving must be ordered as a separate line item in the form of an SR- kit. For example, to order a 4S wallstation with Satin Nickel finish and non-standard button labels:
    Code:
    1      SG-4SI-BL-EGN       4S wallstation, Insert-style, Black, numbered buttons
       or  SG-4SN-BL-EGN         non-insert style (the SR kit will change it)
    1      NT-R3-FB-SN         Satin Nickel wallplate
    1      SR-4SI-BL-NST       custom engraving button kit [enclose engraving form]
    
  • These facts are not widely known in Lutron tech and customer support, but the excellent support people will find the answers that they don't have to hand. Thank you Rich and Angela!
Lastly, the special metal finishes LOOK GREAT!
----------------
┬╣ This may apply only to metal finishes. Other dimmer models including the very similar RadioRA wallstations are shown in the catalog with the insert matching the wallplate color (e.g. p.172, p.236).

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post #57 of 1453 Old 07-22-2005, 07:55 AM
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The metal finishes do look great but I would caution that if you expect to order a metal finish for the main unit the metal cover may act as heat sinks and be very hot to the touch--as in 110-120F. I have never ordered a metal finish for a Grafik Eye but I have for many a Vario. And those Varios were all very hot to the touch. If you are restricting you metal cover plates to accessory controls this will be of no concern. I wonder if the Architrave can be special ordered with blue or green leds as it can with Homeworks. The Architrave with blue leds is so coooool.

Alan
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post #58 of 1453 Old 07-22-2005, 10:10 AM
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I have a satin nickel GE mounted. Still waiting for the lumenaires. I'll report on temperatures when I observe some.

I like the look of Architrave too, but my wallstations need to mount in duplex.

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post #59 of 1453 Old 08-04-2005, 09:52 PM
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Thanks for the great info on the Grafik Eye, the suggestion of the mason box will save me some headaches later. I am just getting ready to drywall and it would have been a pain to find out the 3 gang plastic box I have installed is too small.

I have a 3000 series 3 zone Grafik Eye that I will be installing in the room. I know the GE will take dimming commands from a remote. However I was wondering if the remote has to be directly pointed at the unit for it to work. My GE will be at a 90 degree angle from the seating postions. I was hoping to use a good Harmony remote or the like to run my audio/video equipment and use the macros to dim the lights while starting the movies. If the remote is pointed towards the front of the room at the AV stuff will it still be able to dim the lights, or is line of site a must with the built in IR of the GE.

I have read about IR repeaters. Are these special or specific to Lutron and GE or are there 3rd party vendors that make these for the GE. My wiring skills are pretty basic. Right now the GE is wired with one power line into the box, a common neutral for the GE and then each zone running out to the cans. Is an IR repeater (or I've also read they might be called "IR blasters") something I need and is it difficult to install?

Thanks for all the great info. I'm just finishing up insulation of the room and still have time to correct anything I overlooked.
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post #60 of 1453 Old 08-11-2005, 10:23 AM
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Just so it doesn't get lost, thanks to arjo-reich here is the link to the 2005 NEC online.

You won't be able to copy or print it. They still want you to buy a copy. But it is useful to have an up to date copy that you can't lose.

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