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post #181 of 2998 Old 02-28-2006, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swithey View Post

No selection on the stain color. However, my wife liked the color of the ones that inspired us. Here is a pic.



HD has a crappy selection so I will probably try out Sherwin Williamns to see what they have. I may even see if they can match the sample in the above pic if the department store will allow me to borrow something small to take over there.

How do you plan on routering out all those grooves? You are going to have to make a real precise jig to get each line on each column precise. One little slip and it's time to build and veneer a new column. What ever you do, try to do some pratice cuts to get the feel of what you have to do.

Ruben

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post #182 of 2998 Old 02-28-2006, 06:11 PM
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I'd use the table saw to cut the grooves. Put the whole column on a sled and set the blade height appropriately. All you have to worry about then is making sure you are cutting each column symmetrically. Should be nice and easy. You can then ease the edges with sandpaper if you want a softer line.
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post #183 of 2998 Old 02-28-2006, 09:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DLilley View Post

I got my dye at rockler. You mix it yourself, its in a powder form and you mix it with hot water. All I did was measure it out with a scale in grams and then mix it with the hot water. From the sample you posted its a pretty light color you will need so if you can go to a rockler store you can get a few different colors and play around with it and figure out what works for you. After you get the color correct all I did was spray it on with a squirt bottle like what you use for windex.
If you have any questions give me a holler.
Doug

Doug,

Thanks for the info. I think I remember reading somewhere about the manual sprayer but never thought it would work. That's good to know that it does. Did you dye Maple wood? I also read that if you use water (vs. an oil based mixer) that the grain will raise up a bit. Did that happen to you?

Do you happen to have any pics of your stained wood you could share with us? I would love to see your work
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post #184 of 2998 Old 02-28-2006, 09:14 PM
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A straight edge tool and a router would do the trick also.

That middle square would look cool with some inlayed wood of a darker color or perhaps a gold emblem to match your inlayed trim you were talking about. How about the initials of your theater name embossed into the square?


I bet if you take that pic down to WoodCraft, the pros will tell you exactly how to achieve that cut.

Ronnie
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post #185 of 2998 Old 02-28-2006, 09:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SandmanX View Post

How do you plan on routering out all those grooves? You are going to have to make a real precise jig to get each line on each column precise. One little slip and it's time to build and veneer a new column. What ever you do, try to do some pratice cuts to get the feel of what you have to do.

Ruben

Ruben and rlowe,

I planned on using a router for the job. With the exception of the center square, they are all straight cuts. With the aid of a simple guide, I should be able to cut them perfectly. Luckily I do not have to deal with a curved column like Ruben. The square in the middle of the "X" (for the front columns) will require me to build a special jig. I definitely know the day I cut those, I'll take off from work. I don't trust myself trying to do it between 8:30pm and 11:30pm one weekday eve.

A table saw with a dato blade would do well for the straight horizontal cuts I need to do on all the columns but the front. However, my table saw is small and to build a table around it and a sled would be time intensive.

Oh, and YES I do plan to practice a bit on some scrap. Believe me, I don't want to make and veneer these columns again! And thanks for the vote of confidence Ruben
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post #186 of 2998 Old 02-28-2006, 09:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronnie_jackson View Post

A straight edge tool and a router would do the trick also.

That middle square would look cool with some inlayed wood of a darker color or perhaps a gold emblem to match your inlayed trim you were talking about. How about the initials of your theater name embossed into the square?


I bet if you take that pic down to WoodCraft, the pros will tell you exactly how to achieve that cut.

Ronnie

Ronnie,

Looks like you beat me to the post. Actually, I plan to use the same 1/2" brushed alum. inlays as I'm using on all the rest of the columns. The chairs we selected have brushed alum. legs -- so it all ties together
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post #187 of 2998 Old 02-28-2006, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swithey View Post

Ronnie,

Looks like you beat me to the post. Actually, I plan to use the same 1/2" brushed alum. inlays as I'm using on all the rest of the columns. The chairs we selected have brushed alum. legs -- so it all ties together


LOL, maybe we should team up. We seem to think alike

Ronnie
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post #188 of 2998 Old 02-28-2006, 09:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Update...

I planned to veneer (2) more columns this eve but got caught up in cutting the veneer. As you know with nature, each piece can be slightly different from the other. I had to lay out all the pieces to find out which ones matched each other, etc. Once I got that done, I started on the cutting. I have the front columns and the rear columns cut and ready to go I'm actually short veneer my two sheet. I bought everything they had last week and am waiting for a new shipment. Nice part is I can use what I have to do the faces of all the columns so everything should match. Since the sides are shallow, having a slightly different piece (if that ends up being the case) will not be that noticeable.

Bummer part is I cannot cut the side pieces until I get the new sheets of veneer. My technique is to veneer the sides 1st then the top. This puts the very thin seam along the side so it is less noticeable. So I may be at a standstill until next week. This forces me to move to the next stage -- building the frames for the fabric panels. I'm waiting on bpape/Bryan to give the final "stamp of approval" on my room before doing that (in case he has me adjust any of the column locations).
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post #189 of 2998 Old 03-01-2006, 12:16 AM
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Steve,
when I did the cabinets I first sanded with 100 grit sandpaper then used 150. After that I wiped down the wood with a damp towel to raise the grain and after it dried out I then sanded with 220. What this does is raise the grain and then you knock it down with the 220 it works like a charm. You would do the same with the veneer because its probably the same thickness as the veneered ply I used. I also did solid maple for the face frames and the doors and used the same tecniques.
I sanded all of this with a random orbit sander you just have to keep it flat.
If I wasn't so techno challenged I would post pics.
The dye I used also had a alcohol based dye if you cont want to use water. At least I think its alcohol based.
Doug
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post #190 of 2998 Old 03-01-2006, 07:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLilley View Post

Steve,
when I did the cabinets I first sanded with 100 grit sandpaper then used 150. After that I wiped down the wood with a damp towel to raise the grain and after it dried out I then sanded with 220. What this does is raise the grain and then you knock it down with the 220 it works like a charm. You would do the same with the veneer because its probably the same thickness as the veneered ply I used. I also did solid maple for the face frames and the doors and used the same tecniques.
I sanded all of this with a random orbit sander you just have to keep it flat.
If I wasn't so techno challenged I would post pics.
The dye I used also had a alcohol based dye if you cont want to use water. At least I think its alcohol based.
Doug

Thanks Doug. I'd prefer to go with the water based dye anyway because of my wife's sensitivity to chemicals -- so the sanding will be fine with me. I already have the handy orbital sander

Now I have a few more questions (hope you don't mind):

1) Did you spray the entire front of the cabinet 1st or just small sections at a time?
2) Once sprayed, how long before you wiped it down (if you even wiped at all)?
3) Looks as if you did not have to do any "pre-conditioning" to the wood except putting the water on it ro raise the grain?
4) What did you use for your sealer -- brand and type would be great.
5) Did you spray the sealer or apply with a brush?

Thanks!
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post #191 of 2998 Old 03-01-2006, 03:44 PM
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Steve,
I used a water based polyurethane made by general finishes its from their environmentally friendly line of products. I used a gloss finish but this would not be what you want to use. They do have a satin version of the finish. I applied it with an hvlp gun and I also applied it with foam brushes it just depended on how much stuff I had to do at the time. Both ways would take a minimum of 3 coats to look the best. I didn't use steel wool between coats on most things unless there were runs. It was usually about 30 minutes between coats as long as the temps were high enough. Usually not a problem in socal. I purchased this stuff from rockler also.
If you have any other questions feel free to ask.
Doug
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post #192 of 2998 Old 03-01-2006, 03:52 PM
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Oops forgot to answer most of your questions.
1) I sprayed one whole side and I soaked it pretty well.
2) Once it was soaked I wiped it off at this time its evident what needs more dye.
3) Yes the only preconditioning is the sanding and the water raising the grain.
4) The sealer was the polyurethane.
5) both
Sorry about not answering all the questions before.
Doug
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post #193 of 2998 Old 03-01-2006, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swithey View Post

Ruben and rlowe,

I planned on using a router for the job. With the exception of the center square, they are all straight cuts. With the aid of a simple guide, I should be able to cut them perfectly. Luckily I do not have to deal with a curved column like Ruben. The square in the middle of the "X" (for the front columns) will require me to build a special jig. I definitely know the day I cut those, I'll take off from work. I don't trust myself trying to do it between 8:30pm and 11:30pm one weekday eve.

A table saw with a dato blade would do well for the straight horizontal cuts I need to do on all the columns but the front. However, my table saw is small and to build a table around it and a sled would be time intensive.

Oh, and YES I do plan to practice a bit on some scrap. Believe me, I don't want to make and veneer these columns again! And thanks for the vote of confidence Ruben

I'd think you just build a routing rig to cut the whole surface at once w/o having to use the straight edge and a separate rig for the diagonal cut. I believe it can be reuse for the side also.
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post #194 of 2998 Old 03-01-2006, 09:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLilley View Post

Oops forgot to answer most of your questions.
1) I sprayed one whole side and I soaked it pretty well.
2) Once it was soaked I wiped it off at this time its evident what needs more dye.
3) Yes the only preconditioning is the sanding and the water raising the grain.
4) The sealer was the polyurethane.
5) both
Sorry about not answering all the questions before.
Doug

Thanks for the info Doug. Sounds like a good option for the Maple.

Just to be sure, is this the stuff you used:

Homestead Dry Dyes
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post #195 of 2998 Old 03-01-2006, 09:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by hvn4179 View Post

I'd think you just build a routing rig to cut the whole surface at once w/o having to use the straight edge and a separate rig for the diagonal cut. I believe it can be reuse for the side also.

hvn4179,
Thanks for the suggestion. Interesting suggestion -- I might need to play around with that option to see how it works.

The 1st thing that comes to mind is a 4 sided triangle (center point would be flat to match the square in the middle of the inlay. Kind of like this:



I problem I see with this jig is I may not get the center square as crisp as I need it. Remember I'm inserting alumumum "U" Channel edging into the grooves.
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post #196 of 2998 Old 03-01-2006, 10:25 PM
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Outside corners are not a problem for getting sharp edges with a routing jig. All of the corners in your shape would be outside corners. You may have a hard time holding the fig in place, a nice strong double-sided tape might work.

Good Luck and have fun,

Brian

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post #197 of 2998 Old 03-01-2006, 11:15 PM
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Steve,
I just went out to the garage and that is the brand I used.
Doug
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post #198 of 2998 Old 03-02-2006, 04:33 AM
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Why not save yourself a lot of hassle and route the 'X' and then the WHOLE square. Then add the square back in later.

I am serious...and don't call me Shirley.
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post #199 of 2998 Old 03-02-2006, 05:24 AM
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I agree with the jig concept. Build yourself a template out of plywood that does the X and the square at the same time, clamp it to the piece and use a plunge router and be done with it. You'd have consistent cuts for all the columns. Doing individual cuts leads to human error, you want to eliminate that.

Bud
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post #200 of 2998 Old 03-02-2006, 07:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BFauska View Post

Outside corners are not a problem for getting sharp edges with a routing jig. All of the corners in your shape would be outside corners. You may have a hard time holding the fig in place, a nice strong double-sided tape might work.

Good Luck and have fun,

Brian

Brian,

You might be right. The "hold your mouth just right" cut is where the diag. line intersects the square in the middle. I need to end that cut at exactly the right spot so not to take off any material on the inside edge of the square. Doable but not something you want to attempt after a few beers

Quote:
Originally Posted by bpape View Post

Why not save yourself a lot of hassle and route the 'X' and then the WHOLE square. Then add the square back in later.

Brian,

I thought about just doing the "X" then reattaching the square. The issue is having the maple grain match up with the surrounding grain. One idea (if I went your direction) if to buy something exotic for the center (stained dark brown like the walls). A few woods I've always loved are Bubinga, Burlwood and Birds-eye Maple. When I was over at Woodcraft the other day, they had a bag of a dozen or so of various veneers (some rather exotic) for I think $20 (8" x 14"). This might be a low cost way to get the wood I want without having to purchase an entire 4x8 sheet.

Bubinga


Burlwood (lots of character in this wood)


Birds-eye Maple



Veneer Pack at Woodcrafters


However, one flaw in my plan -- will it be okay if these are the only (2) places in the room with this type of wood? I did not plan to have the "X" accent in any of the side or rear columns because that area will be covered up with grill cloth. I am planning to build a shallow but wide bar table behind the HT seating -- could use that wood there (but that might get rather expensive for such a unimportant fixture (looks wise) in the room). Heaven forbid a wet glass left a permanent ring in the wood because a guest forgot their coaster

Quote:
Originally Posted by hinadog View Post

I agree with the jig concept. Build yourself a template out of plywood that does the X and the square at the same time, clamp it to the piece and use a plunge router and be done with it. You'd have consistent cuts for all the columns. Doing individual cuts leads to human error, you want to eliminate that.

Bud, yes an all-in-one jig may be the way to go. I need to come up with a jig design. However I am with you on the human error factor here and would love to minimize that as much as possible. I can't seem to think up a single piece design that could handle the inner square and angled sides. I'm almost thinking it will need to be a 2-piece design -- just can't think of it yet. Ideas?
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post #201 of 2998 Old 03-02-2006, 07:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLilley View Post

Steve,
I just went out to the garage and that is the brand I used.
Doug

Doug,

Thanks for the confirmation. I need to go out there anyway to go look at these small 4" deep cans ronnie_jackson found. They look like a great solution as "accent" lighting on top of my columns (because I have limited depth on (2) of them).

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post #202 of 2998 Old 03-02-2006, 07:57 AM
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I personally think that doing the Burlwood or BirdsEye for the square would be another one of those 'little details' that really make it stand out - especially when surounded by the metal.

You might also want to check out Myrtle Burl or Cocobolo

I am serious...and don't call me Shirley.
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post #203 of 2998 Old 03-02-2006, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swithey View Post

Bud, yes an all-in-one jig may be the way to go. I need to come up with a jig design. However I am with you on the human error factor here and would love to minimize that as much as possible. I can't seem to think up a single piece design that could handle the inner square and angled sides. I'm almost thinking it will need to be a 2-piece design -- just can't think of it yet. Ideas?

I think a 2 part jig would be best. Basically the main part would be an X-shape that you would clamp down to the surface and with that you would be able to cut the X and everything out of the center. Then, and second part that would be a semi U shape that would slide into 2 legs of the X and whatever distance out to hold the router from incorrectly cutting the center.

I can probably draw up a quick sketch in paint if I'm not explaining myself very well.

*EDIT* I drew up a picture real quick... Blue part is Jig #1 - Red is Jig Insert. So if you were cutting the line from top left to top right the red would be inserted in the bottom.

Nelson
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post #204 of 2998 Old 03-02-2006, 03:36 PM
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Steve,
there are a couple ways to do it you could take a piece of ply and make a jig for the x and then make a jig for the square cut and route out the square and add the birdseye or whatever you decide after.
The other is make 1 jig with the x and the square in it but only make half of the jig so it would be three points of the x and half of the square. Cut one side and then flip it around and finsh the other side.
Either one of these would be easy to make a little bigger so you can easily clamp them to your column.
I hope this makes sense.
Also I vote to put in the different wood in the front columns it wont look strange I thinks it would look very good.
Doug
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post #205 of 2998 Old 03-02-2006, 05:28 PM
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Steve, using a differernt wood for that center piece was exactly what I was trying to explain earlier. I think thats an awsome idea. Would make your jigging easier also.

I think it would look great. You could easily change it out if you dont like it.

Ronnie
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post #206 of 2998 Old 03-02-2006, 06:49 PM
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A couple of questions, and then a suggestion, Steve.

The questions are regarding the veneering (and this goes for any of you veneering experts that are following this thread, of course):

1) Why do you need to bondo/fill-in the imperfections in the MDF? The veneering covers it, and I imagine there's enough direct contact between the MDF and veneering to allow you to skip this step. (I realize Ruben did the same thing)
2) Were/are you set on crisp, 90 degree angles on your columns? I'm curious why you didn't route out an outside curve and wrap one piece of veneer around the entire column.. or was the veneer not wide enough?
3) I understand how the craft paper would be useful; however, is the idea just to get it as close as possible (and possibly overhang the surface you're applying it to and trim it off), and just ensure there are no major bubbles (that can't be removed with the roller)?
4) Are you planning on using grain filler? (I'm guessing not based on the relatively grainless appearance of the design photo)

I think the column design looks great. My suggestion is regarding the jig for it. I'd stay away from your original jig design, since you'd have to be extremely careful not to "overshoot" the jig and end up with a slightly curved routing mark. In other words, tracing an angle on the outside of it is prone to mistakes. I would create a jig that is a square with a concentric square hole, and you just do the square first. Then a simple, straight line jig at an angle to connect the corner of the square with the corner (edge) of the column.

Keep up the great work -- I'm actually looking forward to veneering at some point. It's an amazingly beautiful result from a relatively simple and inexpensive process.
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post #207 of 2998 Old 03-02-2006, 08:06 PM
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Tim,
I hope you dont mind me answering a couple of your questions.
You use bondo to fill in imperfections because the veneer will follow them and you will see it through the veneer.
If you route in a quarter round on the edge of the column it will be too tight and the veneer can't bend that tight it will probably break at that point.
The craft paper just keeps the 2 pieces apart so you can position them because once they touch thats it they are stuck for good there is no pulling it apart and doing it over its throw it away and start over.
I hope this clears up a few points for you.
Doug
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post #208 of 2998 Old 03-03-2006, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLilley View Post

Tim,
I hope you dont mind me answering a couple of your questions.
You use bondo to fill in imperfections because the veneer will follow them and you will see it through the veneer.
If you route in a quarter round on the edge of the column it will be too tight and the veneer can't bend that tight it will probably break at that point.
The craft paper just keeps the 2 pieces apart so you can position them because once they touch thats it they are stuck for good there is no pulling it apart and doing it over its throw it away and start over.
I hope this clears up a few points for you.
Doug

Thanks for the info, Doug. However, I still have a few questions.. How thick is the veneer? I'd imagine it's something like 1/8" thick (haven't worked with it.. only seen it in passing), and would imagine a brad won't make enough of a divot to effect the exterior of the veneer.

Secondly, regarding the wrap around at a 90 degree angle (on a rounded corner of course).. I know that will work since Ruben (SandmanX) did it with his column box and light tray/soffit. Although I'm guessing he had to use two sheets to do the rounded soffit that's at the front of his theater; I don't think he mentions whether he had to do that, though.
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post #209 of 2998 Old 03-03-2006, 07:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TheSpoon View Post

I think a 2 part jig would be best. Basically the main part would be an X-shape that you would clamp down to the surface and with that you would be able to cut the X and everything out of the center. Then, and second part that would be a semi U shape that would slide into 2 legs of the X and whatever distance out to hold the router from incorrectly cutting the center.

I can probably draw up a quick sketch in paint if I'm not explaining myself very well.

*EDIT* I drew up a picture real quick... Blue part is Jig #1 - Red is Jig Insert. So if you were cutting the line from top left to top right the red would be inserted in the bottom.

Nelson

Nelson,

Yes, I follow you on the jig. This would work well if removing the material for the center square was okay. With that said, I'm going to do a few tests to see if I can be steady enough to keep the center square in tact. DLilley/Doug had a good idea to cut the square 1st then the "X" after that with a 2nd jig.

When I veneer the column, I plan not put glue in the exact area where the center square would be. This would allow me to just cut that veneer off and have a nice place to add an exotic veneer -- accomplishing the look without the need to re-add the square center piece.

I like both options and will try both (and report back). Either way, I end up with the same result.
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post #210 of 2998 Old 03-03-2006, 07:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by miltimj View Post

A couple of questions, and then a suggestion, Steve.

The questions are regarding the veneering (and this goes for any of you veneering experts that are following this thread, of course):

1) Why do you need to bondo/fill-in the imperfections in the MDF? The veneering covers it, and I imagine there's enough direct contact between the MDF and veneering to allow you to skip this step. (I realize Ruben did the same thing)
2) Were/are you set on crisp, 90 degree angles on your columns? I'm curious why you didn't route out an outside curve and wrap one piece of veneer around the entire column.. or was the veneer not wide enough?
3) I understand how the craft paper would be useful; however, is the idea just to get it as close as possible (and possibly overhang the surface you're applying it to and trim it off), and just ensure there are no major bubbles (that can't be removed with the roller)?
3) Are you planning on using grain filler? (I'm guessing not based on the relatively grainless appearance of the design photo)

I think the column design looks great. My suggestion is regarding the jig for it. I'd stay away from your original jig design, since you'd have to be extremely careful not to "overshoot" the jig and end up with a slightly curved routing mark. In other words, tracing an angle on the outside of it is prone to mistakes. I would create a jig that is a square with a concentric square hole, and you just do the square first. Then a simple, straight line jig at an angle to connect the corner of the square with the corner (edge) of the column.

Keep up the great work -- I'm actually looking forward to veneering at some point. It's an amazingly beautiful result from a relatively simple and inexpensive process.

Tim,

-- Looks like Doug answered #1.

-- On #2, yes, I could have easily rounded the edges with a simple quarter-round bit and used a single sheet of veneer. In fact, I was playing with the veneer and because it's only about 1/16" thick (maybe 1/32" more) it could almost do a 90deg turn (but I'm not going to take the chance). But to answer your question as to "Why didn't I radius and use a single piece" is all the fault of the 1/2" "U" shaped brushed aluminum inlays I plan to use. I want a crisp look and those inlays wrap all the way around to back on each side of the column. If it was rounded, the inlay would stick out a bit (since I was planning to have them about 1/16" to 1/8" embossed into the surface of the MDF). The 90deg turn they will make around the side forces the corners to be a nice as as sharp as possible.

-- #3a - Doug answered this one perfectly -- thanks again Doug. To add, if there is a low spot, the veneer may be stuck for X about of time, but may eventually lift off and create a bubble.

-- #3b - No grain filler needed. Maple has a very tight grain and that is one reason I picked it.
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