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post #1 of 54 Old 05-10-2006, 08:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Any suggestions on what underlayment to use under a floating laminate floor over concrete?

I need to provide some significant shock absorption. I got one suggestion of cork, but that appears to be awfully expensive.

-Steve
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post #2 of 54 Old 05-10-2006, 08:35 AM
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...and cork would not provide what you want from an impact point of view.

Look at http://www.acousticalsurfaces.com/ac...s/acoustik.pdf

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post #3 of 54 Old 05-10-2006, 09:48 PM
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I got QuietWalk underlayment from Lumber Liquidators, it was $50 a roll for 100 sq ft. I'm putting it down under my engineered hardwood. Not sure how well it works, but I'll know in a week or so.
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post #4 of 54 Old 05-11-2006, 04:55 AM
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7/16" OSB over 1/4" panel fold pink foam (4' x 50' bundle). Roof clips hold the sheets together, power nail them down, they won't move. Put your floor down. Very inexpensive, warm, and compliant under your feet.
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post #5 of 54 Old 05-11-2006, 08:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

...and cork would not provide what you want from an impact point of view.

Look at http://www.acousticalsurfaces.com/ac...s/acoustik.pdf

Thanks Dennis. I just spoke to them on the phone. It certainly looks like this would do what I want, but it ain't cheap (and what ever is?).

$3/sf + $150 for adhesive.

I'll keep them on my short list.

-Steve
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post #6 of 54 Old 05-11-2006, 08:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twojciac View Post

I got QuietWalk underlayment from Lumber Liquidators, it was $50 a roll for 100 sq ft. I'm putting it down under my engineered hardwood. Not sure how well it works, but I'll know in a week or so.

Hmm, that looks promising. Any idea how think it is?

Would you mind checking back in on this thread and letting us know what you think after the install? I have a LL not too far from me, and was very pleased with their product/service when I bought from them previously.

-Steve
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post #7 of 54 Old 05-11-2006, 08:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PAD View Post

7/16" OSB over 1/4" panel fold pink foam (4' x 50' bundle). Roof clips hold the sheets together, power nail them down, they won't move. Put your floor down. Very inexpensive, warm, and compliant under your feet.

Does the OSB supply any additional shock absorption value? If I'm putting laminate floating floor over it, would it be ncessary?

As silly as it sounds, I'm trying to preserve every last bit of headroom, and would like to not soak up another ~7/16".

-Steve
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post #8 of 54 Old 05-17-2006, 04:34 AM
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for sound, not shock absorption in a situation where sound isn't a concern.

rubber mat > cork for basically all applications, especially floors that aren't concrete or gypsum concrete (i.e., most floors) where the weight of the rubber mat is a benefit.

pink foams can be cheap, and can be white and yellow and all of those, and they are more resilient than cork, but they aren't without drawbacks relative to rubber mats. Basically, they contain alot of air, and are as such softer and that can lead to a more defined resonance due to the spring effect. and, again, they don't contribute mass.

Understanding sound isolation
That link may be helpful
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post #9 of 54 Old 05-17-2006, 04:46 AM
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Brian

Are you saying that 1/4" rigid foam under OSB could cause serious acoustic problems?

I am in a similar situation, where I am trying to plan out flooring options for the basement. My goal is to get off the cold concrete with a minimal effect on acoustics in the HT. I am thinking of using Planton or Dricore but the cost is a little difficult to justify. 1/4" RF would be a lot cheaper, but not if it would be a serious hit to room acoustics.

Thanks
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post #10 of 54 Old 05-17-2006, 05:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippard View Post

Brian

Are you saying that 1/4" rigid foam under OSB could cause serious acoustic problems?

I am in a similar situation, where I am trying to plan out flooring options for the basement. My goal is to get off the cold concrete with a minimal effect on acoustics in the HT. I am thinking of using Planton or Dricore but the cost is a little difficult to justify. 1/4" RF would be a lot cheaper, but not if it would be a serious hit to room acoustics.

Thanks
Skipp

Skipp,

it won't cause problems with sound inside the room, and it will help with higher frequency impact noise, particularily on concrete or something extremely heavy/hard, where high frequency noise is more of an issue.

but, yes, it could cause loss of performance over some freq range due to a resonance. when you put air cavity or something springy into a structure to decouple it, you get this resonance as a side effect. unavoidable reality of the situation.

in this case i think rubber mats with mass + generally less prone to this resonance are a better choice in lightweight floors. in heavy (masonary/gypsum concrete, etc.) floors, the choice of underlayment is less important.

so no, it won't hurt room acoustics, the considerations are only sound isolation. and in situations it can be helpful for that, but its not a universally beneficial product.

Brian

Understanding sound isolation
That link may be helpful
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post #11 of 54 Old 05-17-2006, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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OK, I'm not sure how my question got turned in to an accoustical one.

As I mentioned in my original post, I'm looking for "shock abosorption" for a laminate floor going over concrete.

This is going to be a dance studio for my wife, and concrete is hard on the ol' knees.

Any recommendations from that standoint? I'm thnking seriously about the 1/4" foam from Lumber Liquidators...

-Steve
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post #12 of 54 Old 05-17-2006, 12:16 PM
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Sorry

Didn't mean to hijack your thread.

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post #13 of 54 Old 05-18-2006, 10:18 AM
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steve,

i also meant no hijacking.

with respect to shock absorption, perhaps you could experiment with that foam option under a single board of OSB/drywall and see if it yields the desired results? I am unsure what to recommend other than thicker/softer materials will yield more cushiness.

Brian

Understanding sound isolation
That link may be helpful
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post #14 of 54 Old 05-19-2006, 04:12 PM
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I'm looking at Delta-FL. It's supposedly sold at Lowes. I think about $.51 per sq foot.

Good luck

-Scott-
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post #15 of 54 Old 05-19-2006, 09:12 PM
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You could use the costco Harmonics (re-branded Quick-Step) underlayment. Its about $30 for a 150 sq/ft roll. Just finished putting down about 800-1000 sq/ft of the stuff and it turned out great!
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post #16 of 54 Old 05-21-2006, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcrawfo2 View Post

I'm looking at Delta-FL. It's supposedly sold at Lowes. I think about $.51 per sq foot.

Good luck

I just took a look at their web site... that looks to be interesting stuff, and appears that you can install a laminate floor over the top of it by just using the "laminate foam" included in the kits and not need to install plywood subfloor.

If Lowe's really does sell it for that price. I'll take a good look. Thanks!

-Steve
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post #17 of 54 Old 05-21-2006, 12:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmmkam View Post

You could use the costco Harmonics (re-branded Quick-Step) underlayment. Its about $30 for a 150 sq/ft roll. Just finished putting down about 800-1000 sq/ft of the stuff and it turned out great!

Thanks.. I saw that the other day, and looks to only be 1/8" thick or so... I question how much absorption that would really provide.

Have you used it?

-Steve
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post #18 of 54 Old 05-22-2006, 10:20 AM
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Steve,
If you get info from Lowes, let me know what you find out. I called twice and was on hold for about 15 mins each time and gave up. I haven't made the drive to the store yet.

Scott

-Scott-
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post #19 of 54 Old 05-22-2006, 09:33 PM
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So I'm half way done with putting down my floating engineered hardwood with the quietwalk product. So far I really like it... it's a vapor barrier and dense pad built into one product. I used a similar product with my Pergo laminate floor in my last house, but quietwalk seems to perform much better.
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post #20 of 54 Old 05-23-2006, 06:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcrawfo2 View Post

Steve,
If you get info from Lowes, let me know what you find out. I called twice and was on hold for about 15 mins each time and gave up. I haven't made the drive to the store yet.

Scott

Sure thing...

-Steve
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post #21 of 54 Old 05-23-2006, 07:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twojciac View Post

So I'm half way done with putting down my floating engineered hardwood with the quietwalk product. So far I really like it... it's a vapor barrier and dense pad built into one product. I used a similar product with my Pergo laminate floor in my last house, but quietwalk seems to perform much better.

Thanks for the report. Are you using this over concrete to provide cushion, or is this over subloor to provide noise attenuation?

If the former, what is your opinion of the amount of "give" the installed system has?

-Steve
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post #22 of 54 Old 05-23-2006, 07:22 AM
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I laid Wilsonart high pressure laminated flooring over concrete. They have 3 different underlayments available. You just want to make sure the underlayment has a vapor barrier when you place it on concrete.

http://www.mairmg.com/wilsonart/home...view.cfm?ID=10

The dealer I purchased through sold me an Armstrong underlayment that was a duplicate of Wilsonarts 2-in-1 pad yet at less cost then the Wilsonart.

I must add that I did not put the laminate in my HT, but installed carpet.
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post #23 of 54 Old 06-15-2006, 08:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcrawfo2 View Post

I'm looking at Delta-FL. It's supposedly sold at Lowes. I think about $.51 per sq foot.

Good luck

Following up on this:

Delta-FL is sold at Lowes, it's just that they don't know it. It's a special order item, and they don't have any in store to look at. I was however able to get them to call the manufacturer and request a sample to be sent. When it gets here around the end of the week, I'll go take a look and perhaps order it, as well as report back here what it's like.

For those interested, here is what you can take to Lowe's with you to get them to find it in their systems:

Mfg: Cosella-Dorken
Product: DELTA-FL
Model # 51050
Lowes SOS Item #: 132387

The price is indeed roughly $0.51 sq/ft. It comes in ~6' rolls that cover 328 sq/ft. There is alsoa tape they supply to seam it. It is backes with a moisture barrior.

Lowes also sells QuietWalk, which is ~1/8" thick, an another underlayment that's even slightly thinner. By comparison the Delta-FL is 5/16" thick.

Here is the product website.

Thanks bcrawfo2 for the lead.

-Steve
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post #24 of 54 Old 07-04-2006, 04:02 PM
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Steve,

Curious how your wife's dance floor is working out after 3 years. I looked at this thread and planning to install Delta-FL with laminate flooring on my concrete basement. My goal is very much similar to yours....to provide cushion in the basement for performing dances. I would very much like to hear your feedback.

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post #25 of 54 Old 07-04-2006, 08:52 PM
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Hmmmm... just my 2cents.... and I will start by saying I am a big proponent of Delta- Fl and here is why!

I want a real floor feeling for my family room! My house is a bungalow with a walk out basement. The family room is in the basement with concrete floor.

I was also very concerned with height !

I did this room about 8 years ago... at that time laminate flooring was approx $3.00 a sq ft and that was a deal!

But my biggest concern was the feeling a real floor and to avoid the humidity causing cold feet syndrome especailly in a basement where you do not have heating ducts running between the floor joists.

I ended up installing the delta-fl and than laying 5/8ths t&G plywood screwed down into the concrete. Then on top of that 5/16ths parquet. I decided on the plywood so that I had the option of plank flooring. But I was more concerned raising the floor anymore than I had to! So in the one room that is approx 350sq ft. It feels just like a regular floor even has a slight spring to it! Very Nice!
I have the comparison to the rest of the basement which has parquet directly on the concrete... Man that is HARD!!!! So I have never regretted the decision. I have sinced helped my dad install Laminate flooring(much better than what was available 8 years ago) 8mm and while it does a good job... I would not trade my delta-FL floor with the plywood and parquet! Actually neither would my dad... but for him the laminate was a more affordable solution for basement flooring this past year.

So for me I would highly recommend the delta-fl! 8 years later. The finished floor feels the same as it did when it was originally installed.
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post #26 of 54 Old 07-05-2006, 07:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the additional feedback. Sounds perfect for what I need. Did you have any issues with your concrete slab having any bumps/dips in it?

According to the docs, I can install laminate directly over the Delta-FL, so that's the plan.

And as an update with Lowes, 2 attempts to get a sample delivered to the store failed, not sure if the store lost it, or the manufacturer never sent it. As my deadline for installation was looming, I went ahead and ordered a roll (along with the tape that goes with it). It wa due Monday, but didn't make it. Hopefully today.

PS- Costco currently has laminate flooring on sale for ~$1.20/ft with coupon.

-Steve
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post #27 of 54 Old 07-05-2006, 08:03 AM
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Yes, my concrete floor was not perfectly level or flat. It had some undulations in it. Leveling the floor was not an option I wanted to explore. As the room was previously a second kitchen with linoleum tiles.

I decided that the plywood would help even out the floor and in fact it did exactly that!

Now as far as the laminate directly on the delta-fl.... I have to tell you I am not sold on that!

Now I am biased and have the single experience that has worked so well for me!

But the more I think of put the delta FL down and floating the laminate on top of it..... I just cannot imagine it!

In my case the plywood is screwed down to the slab and in fact than compresses the delta-fl but not quite flat. This is how part of the even'ing out takes place for the undulations in the floor.

Now once in a while depending on the season once in a while I come a cross a specific section where if you step just right you hear sort of a dimple being pressed like bubble wrap... but barely audible not loud like bursting bubble wrap. No one else has ever noticed it and it might just be me and my weight.

So the thought of putting the laminate directly on top of the laminate... I just wonder if that is a good thing especially if is intended for specific use like dancing etc.

Now... an engineered wood type of laminate that has a plywood type substrate as part of the flooring... you know the kind that is 1/2" or 5/8's might work better. But I am not sure if the typical 6-8 mm MDF based laminate has enough rigidity if it sat directly on top of the Delta-FL.
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post #28 of 54 Old 07-05-2006, 09:05 AM
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Sorry I mised this thread from the begining.

I find it hard to believe that there have been 27 replies so far and no one had mentioned Dricore.

Tom

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post #29 of 54 Old 07-05-2006, 03:13 PM
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Dricore.. is that the 2' x 2' stuff they carry at Home Depot.

I have seen it... I have no experience with it or even seeing it installed. One of the things I like about the delta-fl was being able to by a large roll and minimize the number of joints. Also using 4 x8 sheets of plywood or OSB.

The dricore comes with only OSB right?

Having said that... I could see how the Dri core in smaller applications might be easier to handle and put down.

The other thing is the price... Not sure how much the drice core costs per sq ft today... but when I saw it I remember it being a little bit more money than the delta-fl and plywood combined.
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post #30 of 54 Old 07-05-2006, 07:33 PM
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Yes, nominaL 2x2. What do you consider "smaller" applications? I've put down 600sf over a day and a half and thought it was extremely easy to work with. The problem I had was that none of my poured concrete wall were straight, so it meant a lot of cutting at the end rows. You would have this same probelm putting down 4X8 plywood. Yes, the surface is OSB, but it is treated and provides a very smooth surface, ready to be covered with just about anything. The sections fit together extremely tight so you don't notice the seams. I haven't priced it lately, but it was very competitive last year.

I guess you can tell I like it. A LOT.
Jeez, the manufacturer should pay me for these endorsements.....

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