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post #121 of 149 Old 02-24-2014, 09:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Old Screen Wall. (With speakers from a couple of swaps ago. Most recently was using Magnepans. The mains sold recently, the center is for sale still.)



The current wall, about the be dismantled. That's a Stewart screen back there, 10' wide 2.35:1, but typically masked to 9 or 8 feet wide, max, for most of the past few years. With the Maggies, it was at 8 feet. And still the Maggies were not in their ideal locations...



Coming soon: The new screen wall, with AT screen, etc.

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post #122 of 149 Old 02-24-2014, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
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In researching for a redesign, I read through many excellent threads here, especially the inspiring screen wall thread.

And I ran across a link to a company called Acoustic Frontiers. On their web site, that have a sample description of a from baffle wall based on their in store demo theater. And it happens to be almost exactly the same dimensions as my room. And their spec-ed screen in 2.35:1 format is within 12 inches (okay theirs is bigger than mine) of what I am installing.

Heck, my seating distance, which was dictated seven years ago when I build my riser, closely matches theirs!

The main differences:

1. I have two rows, though obviously the riser row is comprised being so close to the back wall.
2. Their screen is lower than mine. And I do have the possible option to change mine, at this point.
3 Due to their screen size, their L+R speakers are a little wider than mine can be or will be.
4. Their surround setup is 7.1 while mine is 5.1, so their side surrounds are not as far back into the room as mine.
5. They have four subs! I will probably just have two.

Here is what they have on their web site.




(image credits: http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/home-theater-blog/2013/11/29/baffle-wall-case-study-acoustic-frontiers-demo-room)

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post #123 of 149 Old 02-24-2014, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Removed the Stewart screen. (Still looking for a buyer for it.)

Moved the speakers out. The Maggie 1.6's are in their new owner's home (great timing).

The Maggie center is boxed and patiently awaiting a lucky new owner.

Removed the bass trapping below and beside and the other acoustic panels. In this shot, the new false wall is not completely framed. There will be a second vertical, and the weird blocking will be much broader -- running across the full top of the baffle wall.



Built a floating (not reaching the left and right walls) false baffle wall, approx 14 inches in front of the structural wall. It's attached to the roof, and while it may not look like enough verticals yet, when finished the two will be strategically placed to support the french cleats of the new Seymour 4K screen.



In my old setup, I was always trying to keep the screen as high on the wall as possible, to maintain space for the speakers (sometimes just a center, but still) below the screen.

So I followed that "high as possible on the wall" standard with the new setup -- even though I won't really need it for the speakers. In fact, one might argue it will put the tweeters a little high.

In fact, if you follow the specs shared above, and best practices, this might be a little high for the screen. On the other hand, my rise is only 6 inches, so a high screen helps second row folks. Those folks are also helped when the first row reclines. And when the front row reclines, having a screen higher than the usual standard is actually helpful (less eye strain to look at something high rather than bend to look at something lower on the wall).

Long story short:

I need to watch a few movies at this height before deciding it is right or wrong. But my screen is about 40" off the ground, and the best practice is more like 2' or a little higher for a 2.35:1 screen of this relative size. Well, sort of: I guess the guideline is really about where the TOP of the screen is -- and it should be 15% or less above where the primary viewers eyes are.

BUT I think this assumes one is sitting up, looking straight ahead. In this age of recliners, that's often not the case....

Of course, the challenge is that I haven't built a shelf for the speakers, nor stuffed the dead space with insulation.

Heck, I haven't even purchased the new speakers! But I do have some powered studio monitors that will do for a few weeks.

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post #124 of 149 Old 02-24-2014, 02:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quick math: The screen is 40 inches off the ground, and then top of the screen is about 45 inches above that. The viewers head is 36" above the ground, and about 108 inches from the screen.

I think that means the angle of view from the seated position, to the top of the screen, is about 30 degrees..... or twice the 15 degree target.

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post #125 of 149 Old 02-24-2014, 02:57 PM
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24.4 degrees

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It appears my hypocrisy knows no bounds.

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post #126 of 149 Old 02-24-2014, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sands_at_Pier147 View Post

24.4 degrees

Thanks. I'm not a math whiz..... clearly.

I used an online calculator, but that's the danger of not really understanding the underlying math! I must have plugged in some numbers wrong on the first pass. Now that I know the answer....

http://ostermiller.org/calc/triangle.html

Plugging in some alternate screen heights (as in the space from floor to the base of the screen) it appears I really need to drop it down to like 2 feet off the ground to get the right angle.... which is very similar to the drawings I quoted, above (though they are slightly further away from the screen so not quite as low, to get the same angle.).

I think when I lean back in my chair, that will be too low for comfort, and probably too low for the back row. But it will be interesting to see...

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post #127 of 149 Old 02-24-2014, 11:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Test drive tonite indicates that lowering by eight to ten inches will make a difference, and allow the behind the screen speakers to be at ear height, or at least a lot closer to it.

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post #128 of 149 Old 02-25-2014, 01:49 PM - Thread Starter
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The most likely speakers are Triad. Given the size of the room, seating distance, ability to EQ the elements that cannot be controlled through treatment and placement, Triad has excellent bang for buck balanced with output and quality.

In a larger space, with more than one row of important seating, the JTR or Seaton selections would be of interest.

The Triad has the advantage of broader price points, a thriving second hand market, and inwall variants engineered for the bafflelike qualities of inwall placement.

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post #129 of 149 Old 03-04-2014, 06:01 PM
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Hey Nathan I'm honored that you like our baffle wall design. We are actually IN the Bay Area, in Marin county. And we are Triad dealers (though Procella is installed in the theater). You and anyone else are welcome to come over for a demo smile.gif

Acoustic Frontiers: design and creation of high performance listening rooms, home theaters and project studios for discerning audio/video enthusiasts.
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post #130 of 149 Old 03-04-2014, 08:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post

Hey Nathan I'm honored that you like our baffle wall design. We are actually IN the Bay Area, in Marin county. And we are Triad dealers (though Procella is installed in the theater). You and anyone else are welcome to come over for a demo smile.gif

Very cool! Next time I am headed to the North Bay I'll arrange to visit. Thanks!

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post #131 of 149 Old 03-29-2014, 10:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Okay got another day of work in. Placement of subs, right now dual Triad Silver until something like the Rythmik F15hp is available, dialed in. Added a high pass 20hz filter in line since I don't want to kill them with subsonic stuff.

Pulled down the old auralex foam. Added acoustic paneling (OC sheets) behind the speakers, three inches, and covered in black burlap. Revised mdf shelves for the Triad Bronze LCR in place. Framing for the fabric panels below the screen fabricated, but I have not decided in whether to stretch GOM or velvet on them. Probably velvet.

And covered more stuff behind the screen in black felt.







Looking better:




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post #132 of 149 Old 04-08-2014, 09:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Building some diffusion panels using existing auralex styrofoam diffusers which will be framed with wood and covered with GOM to match the existing GIK absorption panels.






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post #133 of 149 Old 04-08-2014, 11:27 PM - Thread Starter
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$20 a yard for the GOM (including shipping) from GIK, but I want to match the GIK panels which have the FR701 black 408 color, so what you gonna do? Got to match the existing GIK panels I bought a few years ago...

CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 100
CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 100
CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 100
CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 100

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post #134 of 149 Old 04-13-2014, 09:06 AM - Thread Starter
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The waiting is the hardest part. Somebody said that.

Well, I'm waiting on the GOM, in order to complete and hang the diffusion panels.

And I'm waiting on the second sub, in order to start dialing things in.

And I'm waiting on the Emotiva 8100, since I sold the Denon 4311.

But computer modeling knows no limitations. So I decided to get a head start on where the subs are likely to measure best.



REW now has a great modeling feature that lets you define room size, woofer location, listening location, etc.

I'm trying to optimize for three possible seating locations, all in one row. Sometimes it's two people, sometimes it's one -- and when it's one person, it's in the middle of where the two people seat.

Yes there is a whole second row of guest seating, and I'm not too worried about that.

Here we have the classic "put them in the front corners" approach. Note that the subs are actually about 22" deep, and I just let the software's default handling of them as 1' cubes take over for this first run.



Ugly. Horribly ugly? No, but surely we can do better. It doesn't even have good seat to seat consistency, so correcting is tough.

The advice most people provide, as a rule of thumb, is that 1/4 and 3/4 front wall placement is often a great place to start.



And it's not too bad, as you can see, but also not too great.

A variation on that is, to use 1/4 of the front wall, and 3/4 of the back wall -- though that is an effort to get row-to-row variation minimized, which is not my goal.




So without further ado, let's take a look at what the modeling software said would work best -- both in terms of seat to seat variation for the main listening row AND in terms of not having crazy dips (nulls) that are of course much harder to correct well than a few consistent peaks:

Just like the Harman research, it's mid wall placement, front and rear.



For the front wall, this is not too difficult.

For the rear wall, right now there is seating in that location. Looks like I may need to turn the center seat into a large, rumbling end table!
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post #135 of 149 Old 04-17-2014, 11:51 PM - Thread Starter
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The GOM showed up this week, as did the Emotiva 8100. Alas the Emotiva is getting replaced (same model and hopefully the new unit outputs video consistently, see the owners thread for gory details).

The GOM, while expensive, worked as intended. Covered many diffusion panels.

Here's a stack of the 2x2 foot ones.



And then a 2x4 panel, next to one of my existing GIK panels..... And you can see why I paid 2x the price of generic acoustic fabric, in order to get a close match....


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post #136 of 149 Old 05-14-2014, 09:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quick update. The second emotiva had the same issue, as did the nuforce but luckily I can play direct from the oppo while seeking out a new pre pro. Have had solid performance in the same setup from denon, marantz and onkyo.

And now I have added some higher end hdmi cables to my stable since that was recommended by emotiva and just about anyone else as a last ditch troubleshooting effort.

Will probably go with yamaha as the only choice with decent PEQ options.

---

Picked up some used triad bronze surrounds. Unfortunately the grills were damaged in shipping. Waiting on the seller to do the insurance dance.

--

Sold off the rest of the Maggie's. Sad to see them go but needed the cash more than a spare pair of speakers.

Need to do the same with the Triad subs now that I have found discounted Rythmiks. One Rythmik amp needs work.

--

More pictures soon.

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post #137 of 149 Old 07-24-2014, 10:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Discussion in another thread about positions of side surround and back surrounds in a room of this size led to a few ideas......

First, placing the backs -- which would be a new element in my otherwise strictly 5.1 theater -- actually on the back wall, even as dipoles, would be very bad for the second row, which is on the back wall (already a bad spot).

But one could try the corners. Triad even makes a corner speaker.

And then the worry: how to take the existing surrounds from 130 degrees to more like 90 degrees....because that is where they belong in a 7.1 setup. But there is a door in the way....

...though as this ugly over-exposed photo shows, not only is there some minor construction going on, but there is actually enough room to get much closer to 90degrees....
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post #138 of 149 Old 08-20-2014, 07:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Work in progress.....
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post #139 of 149 Old 08-20-2014, 07:43 PM - Thread Starter
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And seating.
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post #140 of 149 Old 09-13-2014, 08:16 PM - Thread Starter
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And time for some tuning. Actually between bass module and the PEQ auto setup, it's not too bad. But I turned those off, just to hear the room, and while I knew the bass would be a bit high, because I have it set about 3 db hot, it was interesting to see the rest of the room.
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post #141 of 149 Old 09-13-2014, 08:19 PM - Thread Starter
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and the waterfall
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post #142 of 149 Old 09-13-2014, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
And time for some tuning. Actually between bass module and the PEQ auto setup, it's not too bad. But I turned those off, just to hear the room, and while I knew the bass would be a bit high, because I have it set about 3 db hot, it was interesting to see the rest of the room.
Interesting. I have pretty much the exact same mid-bass dips.
Good luck.

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post #143 of 149 Old 09-14-2014, 06:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Interesting. I have pretty much the exact same mid-bass dips.
Good luck.
Yeah, though I am much more worried about the waterfall right now. Even with a lot of bass trapping (think a half dozen traps) and Antimode, set to flat, my response below 100 is really out of control.

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Quote:
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Yeah, though I am much more worried about the waterfall right now. Even with a lot of bass trapping (think a half dozen traps) and Antimode, set to flat, my response below 100 is really out of control.
I am certainly no expert, but I see no bass trapping in your room. I read through the last two pages carefully but couldn't find any absorption deeper than 3 or 4 inches, which results in plenty of mid-range and high frequency absorption. You mentioned that you were going to fill the 8" gap behind the baffle wall with insulation, but looks like you chose to glue some mid-range absorption behind your screen instead. Superchunks stuffed in every corner possible with a reflective membrane on the front surface is your best bet. Wide panels straddling the corner are a reasonable option but they need to touch both walls. Again, this is just my understanding.
As you can see, impacting the lower octaves (<60 hz) with broadband absorption is a wasted effort. The first graph is per linear foot and I the second is for an 8 foot length I believe.
I'm sure you have seen all these before, but this is what I base my opinion on.

Love the Asian carpet by the way, though running it up onto the riser looks like a potential accident waiting to happen.



[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

.

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post #145 of 149 Old 09-14-2014, 11:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Good points.

My posts may not be clear.

Behind the screen, I removed the red wedges and put sheets of OC704, four layers deep, with black burlap over them.

Then below the screen, were i had subs, i placed six inch thick GIK bass traps at 45degrees bridging the wall and floor with a generous air gap behind them, about 12".

Then in the left and right front corners I used the four inch deep, four feet tall, two feet wide GIK traps again at 45degrees to create an air gap.

On the back wall, less effective, two more of the six inch thick panels.
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post #146 of 149 Old 09-14-2014, 11:08 PM - Thread Starter
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I am thinking i may go whole hog and get lots of the pink fluffy stuff, since its supposedly better trapping bass than even the oc703, and pile it all around the screen around.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
Good points.

My posts may not be clear.

Behind the screen, I removed the red wedges and put sheets of OC704, four layers deep, with black burlap over them.

Then below the screen, were i had subs, i placed six inch thick GIK bass traps at 45degrees bridging the wall and floor with a generous air gap behind them, about 12".

Then in the left and right front corners I used the four inch deep, four feet tall, two feet wide GIK traps again at 45degrees to create an air gap.

On the back wall, less effective, two more of the six inch thick panels.
Ah. I didn't understand. Thanks.

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I am thinking i may go whole hog and get lots of the pink fluffy stuff, since its supposedly better trapping bass than even the oc703, and pile it all around the screen around.
A cheap experiment even if it doesn't work out. Great that you are taking measurements so you can see if there is benefit. I haven' heard before that pink fiberglass is better than OC703. My understanding is that there is virtually no trapping difference; OC703 is easier to work with for panels and the pink fluffy is much cheaper. Looking forward to seeing the results of your experimentation.

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post #148 of 149 Old 09-15-2014, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Ah. I didn't understand. Thanks.



A cheap experiment even if it doesn't work out. Great that you are taking measurements so you can see if there is benefit. I haven' heard before that pink fiberglass is better than OC703. My understanding is that there is virtually no trapping difference; OC703 is easier to work with for panels and the pink fluffy is much cheaper. Looking forward to seeing the results of your experimentation.
As I get deeper into figuring how much of what to put where, it seems like the science is pretty conclusive that with a problem like mine (essentially all below 100hz) I need to go with membrane traps.

Looks like GIK may be getting more of my budget!

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post #149 of 149 Old Today, 10:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Working on swapping out the DSpeaker Anti-mode with a new mini-dsp.

Been using the 25 hz lift on the Anti-mode, since I am listening at -20 (roughly) on the Reference scale, if I can trust the Yamaha YPAO to have set zero to Reference.

That's sort of a brute force way to get more bass so that perceptually it sounds and feels like it would at Reference. But I suspect that with the mini-dsp, I can finesse it a bit more.

The challenge: What is the RIGHT bump, and where, to get perceptually accurate bass when listening at my usual volume.

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