*free* software to help determine your first reflection points - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 251 Old 05-22-2007, 08:23 PM
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drin,

Seriously, your comments are not warranted in this thread.

Jeff asked for suggestions to make the program easier/better and people are providing them. I don't think he needs you (or anyone else) to filter those suggestions and belittle people (if you can't convert you shouldn't be building a theater, people I know are smart enough to use a calculator, etc.) for suggesting them.

He (and he alone) will choose what items he wants to add to future releases, if any.

There's no such thing as a bad suggestion, so stop trying to be the suggestion police. It's annoying, pointless and makes the thread that much harder to read/get through.

"The dream never dies, just the dreamer."

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post #92 of 251 Old 05-22-2007, 09:00 PM
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Stew4msu,
My sentiments exactly. Nothing to add to this...
I also think metric input would be a welcome addition.

Jeff...,
Great program you have written! Keep up the good work.

Best

DenW
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post #93 of 251 Old 05-23-2007, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew4msu View Post

drin,

Seriously, your comments are not warranted in this thread.

But yours are? I am as entitled to my opinions on this as you are. In fact, I happen to know the author of the software very well. BTW, if you had actually read the thread you'd know his name isn't "Jeff". I know how much time he's put into the software and I know his feature priority list. I'll comment where I please, until such time as this forum becomes private.

If you don't like them, you're free to not read my comments.



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post #94 of 251 Old 05-23-2007, 08:59 AM
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I'll just chime in here and say I have to agree with drin. He used a smiley face next to his "calculator" remark, so it's obvious that he's joking around... and that you guys probably need to lighten up a little.

The spirit of Drin's comments are valid anyway... that, assuming that the author's resources are limited (a pretty safe assumption), that said resources would be better spent adding other features instead of metric units... at this point in time. I tend to agree and our opinion is just as valid as is yours to the contrary.

These are discussion forums, and people are bound to disagree on certain issues ... which I find perfectly fine, as long as nobody is offensive or makes personal attacks. Some light-hearted chiding about converting a few measurements doesn't fit into that category, IMHO.

Some want metric units, some would rather see other features first. Opinions stated... Next topic.

SC

I've got GAS: Gadget Acquisition Syndrome.
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post #95 of 251 Old 05-23-2007, 02:09 PM
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I can not believe that anyone is defending Drin. It would seem that perhaps you did not read all of his posts. Everybody is clearly entitled to their opinions/suggestions but the way that Drin has been responding is just not called for in a friendly environment like this one. His tone and wording is very uncalled for. His initial point may have been valid but you just have to look at how people have reacted to see that he has offended others in the way that he worded/presented it.

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post #96 of 251 Old 05-23-2007, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianunknown View Post

I can not believe that anyone is defending Drin.

Simply put, why do you care? We've never spoken before (that I know of), and this discussion *was* about a needless software feature people are asking for when that same feature is available to them by clicking 'Start->Programs->Accessories->Calculator' in Windows. Either that or by spending $1 at the dollar store for a nice calculator made in China.

Quote:


It would seem that perhaps you did not read all of his posts. Everybody is clearly entitled to their opinions/suggestions but the way that Drin has been responding is just not called for in a friendly environment like this one. His tone and wording is very uncalled for. His initial point may have been valid but you just have to look at how people have reacted to see that he has offended others in the way that he worded/presented it.


Brian, I'm not going to get into a shouting match with you. I posted a long message in this thread about the cost of software engineering and why metric conversion is simply a waste of developer time when there are far more important things to do. If people can't be bothered to read an entire thread before posting their feature requests I can't be bothered with them - to me they're not worth my time.

As for my posting style, the way I word my posts is my prerogative. As I have stated previously you're under no obligation to read them.

As far as defending me goes, thanks ecrabb. I would guess that you're defending my points, not the way I make them. Thanks for the kind words anyway.


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post #97 of 251 Old 05-23-2007, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drin View Post

Anyway, I'm not going to get any further into a flame war. You're entitled to ask for metric support, and I'm entitled to reply that I think it's a waste of time to add it when there are more important features to consider (again, my opinion).

And almost 2 months later you decide to bring it back with the calculator remark.

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Funny. I *am* Canadian, and the author of the software is too. All the Canadians I know are smart enough to use a calculator.

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post #98 of 251 Old 05-23-2007, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by klemsaba View Post

And almost 2 months later you decide to bring it back with the calculator remark.

With a happy face (a character conveniently deleted in your quote), after someone posted that they'd like metric because they're in Canada.

Quote:


Originally Posted by drin
Anyway, I'm not going to get any further into a flame war. You're entitled to ask for metric support, and I'm entitled to reply that I think it's a waste of time to add it when there are more important features to consider (again, my opinion).

Please note the "I am entitled to reply that I think it's a waste of time..." in my quote above. That is what I did. What part of that confuses you?


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post #99 of 251 Old 05-23-2007, 07:08 PM
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OK, I've had it with this ridiculous argument. I feel it's perfectly valid to point out that metric should be FAR down the list of features for Chris' software given the other more important features that he's working on when he has time. Your opinion may differ. As I pointed out in an earlier post the time required to implement this feature far outweighs its usefulness when compared to the other features that are in the pipeline.

I propose the following: If you really feel metric is that important you have three options.

1. Use a calculator and do your own conversions.
2. Pay the software author for his time in adding this feature. If it's worth that much to you you should be willing to fork over some cash for it.
3. Write your own software to calculate first reflection points, including metric calculations.

I'm not going to argue this any more. I'm entitled to my opinion, and it's based on many years in the software engineering industry as a programmer, project manger and director of software R&D. You are entitled to disagree with it, but at least try to have an informed opinion rather than blindly typing "I need metric".

Argue back all you want. I'm done wasting my time justifying myself.

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post #100 of 251 Old 05-23-2007, 08:59 PM
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LOL but seriously, Jeff, how's the new program working out for you?

-Chris B.



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post #101 of 251 Old 05-23-2007, 10:21 PM
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Nice I need services


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post #102 of 251 Old 05-24-2007, 07:18 PM
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Great program!

Should the size input of the speakers only include a square encompassing the front drivers?

I have some Def Tech bipole speakers for L/R. How do the rear-firing drivers affact how to treat the walls? Should the front wall be treated in that case? Can those drivers be modeled?

What about reflection for surround speakers? Do you treat the walls for those reflections?

Program improvement suggestions:
1. What about shortcuts to orthographic views of the room?
2. My 50" TV feels left out of the fun.....60" is the minimum...
3. What about modeling wall openings? If you had a clean slate, could you put wall openings at the reflection points instead of wall treatments? (Just a thought)
4. What about columns in the room? That seems to be too common around here...

Thats enough questions for this session.

thanks again for your effort!

"Don't get caught watchin' the paint dry"
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post #103 of 251 Old 05-25-2007, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drin View Post

OK, I've had it with this ridiculous argument. I feel it's perfectly valid to point out that metric should be FAR down the list of features for Chris' software given the other more important features that he's working on when he has time. Your opinion may differ. As I pointed out in an earlier post the time required to implement this feature far outweighs its usefulness when compared to the other features that are in the pipeline.

I propose the following: If you really feel metric is that important you have three options.

1. Use a calculator and do your own conversions.
2. Pay the software author for his time in adding this feature. If it's worth that much to you you should be willing to fork over some cash for it.
3. Write your own software to calculate first reflection points, including metric calculations.

I'm not going to argue this any more. I'm entitled to my opinion, and it's based on many years in the software engineering industry as a programmer, project manger and director of software R&D. You are entitled to disagree with it, but at least try to have an informed opinion rather than blindly typing "I need metric".

Argue back all you want. I'm done wasting my time justifying myself.

-drin


You can't really be that obtuse.

It's not about your point or your opinion. It's about your condescending attitude toward other posters and your need to keep reiterating the same thing over and over. The suggestion for metric (which I could care less about BTW) may be far down the priority list for you and me (and maybe for the OP), but who cares? It's a suggestion. Every suggestion that might improve the product shoud be worthwhile, no matter how much time it takes.

IF the OP thinks it's stupid and won't consider it or if he wants to rate the suggestions in their priority order, then that's fine. It's not for you or me to decide. Just get over it. Release your baggage and go to your happy place.

"The dream never dies, just the dreamer."

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post #104 of 251 Old 05-25-2007, 03:12 PM
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Just trying this out. Thanks for the program this should help me out at my stage (picking out sound treatments )

Cheers
Calvin

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post #105 of 251 Old 05-27-2007, 09:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjrichar View Post

Great program!

Should the size input of the speakers only include a square encompassing the front drivers?

Hi mjrichar. I'm amazed it took this long for someone to ask that question! I expected it on the first day. I intended people to make the rectangles the size of the entire front face of the speaker.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjrichar View Post


I have some Def Tech bipole speakers for L/R. How do the rear-firing drivers affact how to treat the walls? Should the front wall be treated in that case? Can those drivers be modeled?

What about reflection for surround speakers? Do you treat the walls for those reflections?

All of the discussions I have seen do not recommend treating reflections for surround speakers. Also I have not seen anyone treat a front wall specifically for first reflections. I have seen them treated for bass, which would cover first reflections as well automatically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjrichar View Post


Program improvement suggestions:
1. What about shortcuts to orthographic views of the room?
2. My 50" TV feels left out of the fun.....60" is the minimum...
3. What about modeling wall openings? If you had a clean slate, could you put wall openings at the reflection points instead of wall treatments? (Just a thought)
4. What about columns in the room? That seems to be too common around here...

Thats enough questions for this session.

thanks again for your effort!

You're welcome and thanks for the suggestions. Orthographic views were actually planned for the first release, and I dropped it to save time. I'll add them at some point. I like the columns idea as well. 50" screens (and smaller) will be possible in the next release. Wall openings are a matter that will need careful consideration, and may be handled better by adding support for loading Google Sketchup files, rather than me trying to add more and more modelling tools to the program.
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post #106 of 251 Old 05-27-2007, 09:42 AM - Thread Starter
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You guys are sure up for a scrap on the metric issue huh? LOL. I saw there were about 15 new posts since I had read the thread, and I thought hmmm...some new discussion...good. Then I discover it's all a fight about metric.

Alright, I will put the issue to rest once and for all, then hopefully the thread can get back on track.

Without picking sides in battle metric (is this Iron Chef?), I can tell you that Europeans will find it easier to use the program in the next release, without the need for a calculator.
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post #107 of 251 Old 05-27-2007, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffreylebowski View Post

All of the discussions I have seen do not recommend treating reflections for surround speakers. Also I have not seen anyone treat a front wall specifically for first reflections. I have seen them treated for bass, which would cover first reflections as well automatically.

More specifically you want more diffusion in surround and rear of the room.

Being very general (YMMV):

1 Make screen wall as dead as possible so no bouncing sound energy can mix with your front Left/Center/Right soundstage as this is the most crucial.

2 Catch the first reflections of the L/C/R on the side walls, floor, and ceiling

3 The surrounds (side and/or rear) are meant to surround you so it is no use to catch their first reflections with absorption, use diffusion so that sound bounces off randomly and 'surrounds' the listeners more.

4 You still want some absorption in the rear, especially to catch the reflections from the front speakers but you do not want to completely deaden the rear wall like the front wall is, alternate absorption and diffusion for the sides and the rear.

5 Even though I put up some very basic acoustic thoughts, it is much better to read about the topic yourself and just get to know how sound interacts in a room.

-Chris B.



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post #108 of 251 Old 05-28-2007, 02:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crackyflipside View Post

Even though I put up some very basic acoustic thoughts, it is much better to read about the topic yourself and just get to know how sound interacts in a room.

I can guarantee you that Chris (aka Jeffrey Lebowski) knows how sound interacts in a room. He's built enough theaters now to know that very well.

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post #109 of 251 Old 05-28-2007, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffreylebowski View Post

Hi mjrichar. I'm amazed it took this long for someone to ask that question! I expected it on the first day. I intended people to make the rectangles the size of the entire front face of the speaker.

.

I don't think I'm the average user...I over analyze everything!

So what you're saying is that the speaker should be modeled with the whole speaker face regardless if the drivers are only in the upper third. Won't that give a first reflection area that is taller than really exists?

thanks again!

"Don't get caught watchin' the paint dry"
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post #110 of 251 Old 05-28-2007, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjrichar View Post

I don't think I'm the average user...I over analyze everything!

So what you're saying is that the speaker should be modeled with the whole speaker face regardless if the drivers are only in the upper third. Won't that give a first reflection area that is taller than really exists?

thanks again!

hi mjrichar. Assuming sound comes from the entire front face of the speaker is an approximation to what happens in the real world, and it may result in a first reflection zone slightly larger than necessary. Most speakers I have seen have multiple drivers along the height of the speaker, so i was comfortable with this assumption. If you have speakers with drivers limited to a very specific portion of the speaker face, feel free to model a smaller speaker in the program and limit it to that region.
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post #111 of 251 Old 06-16-2007, 08:15 PM
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This is a great program, thanks for putting this out for our use.

I have one questions, I wasn't about to get the grids to work on the side walls, any ideas?

Thanks
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post #112 of 251 Old 06-20-2007, 06:45 PM
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This software looks like it will really assist me; however, I can seem to get it working. I downloaded it and when I try to run it, it says "Do you want to open this file?" Then under file type, it says "Unknown file type". Any suggestions as to why? Not sure what I did wrong? Thanks.
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post #113 of 251 Old 06-20-2007, 08:32 PM
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Could you add a printing in color with the grids of the different walls, floors , and the ceiling feature.
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post #114 of 251 Old 06-20-2007, 08:37 PM
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Great tool. Thanks for your work. I look forward to seeing the next version when you get it finished. All of my thoughts were covered by other posts, and metric isn't a priority for me either.

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post #115 of 251 Old 06-21-2007, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emanuele View Post

I've finish tried it with my room dimensions, and doesn't fit there since the position of my front channel and screen is asymmetrical.

Could you add different x-shift for left and right front speaker, and an x-shift for center channel and screen ?
Emanuele

Awesome program, very smart. Another vote for non-asymmetrical setups! ;-) I know we might be a small group but it would be cool if I could move my screen and speakers over a little. Having said that I've seen a few HT that have doors in the front of the room so they have to be slightly off center. So I think a lot of people would find it useful. Thanks!

Matthew


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post #116 of 251 Old 07-17-2007, 12:48 PM
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excellent work, Jeff! Many Kudos to you !

Only one small thing.....

Can we have the size limit of the speakers increased?

I have Magnepan MG3.6R speakers which are 6 feet tall. The software wont let me put a speaker more than 4' tall.

Also some speakers (like mine) are dipoles....they radiate both front and back. Any chance you can incorporate that option in this too?

Again...excellent work !

Going to acoustic design.....does it mean that basically the reflection points are the regions which should be damped?

-Rajiv
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post #117 of 251 Old 07-17-2007, 12:49 PM
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Please install DirectX first

google it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay7 View Post

This software looks like it will really assist me; however, I can seem to get it working. I downloaded it and when I try to run it, it says "Do you want to open this file?" Then under file type, it says "Unknown file type". Any suggestions as to why? Not sure what I did wrong? Thanks.


-Rajiv
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post #118 of 251 Old 07-17-2007, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rajdude View Post

Going to acoustic design.....does it mean that basically the reflection points are the regions which should be damped?

Rajiv: Yes, that's what should happen at the first reflection points.

-drin

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post #119 of 251 Old 07-26-2007, 07:40 AM
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Wow, this program looks awesome! I'm wondering, though, how accurate it would be with my Martin Logan Clarity speakers? They are dipoles and play out the front and back. And because their sound stage is really the height of the speaker, does that mean the reflection point is off because of ceiling and floor calculations?

I'm a n00b at all this so pardon the multi questions!

-Mike

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post #120 of 251 Old 07-26-2007, 09:14 AM
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Well, obviously the first reflection point for the rear-firing drivers would be the wall right behind the speaker. Although, honestly, I'd just turn off the rear drivers if you have that option. In my mind, rear firing drivers are for causing more sound reflections, something that most of us want to avoid. It's a way to cause more sound reflection in the room giving a more enveloping sound field, but a less discrete one. This may be desirable for music, but probably kills the soundstage for movies.

Then again, I'm new at this too. I've got NHTs with the rear drivers and just turn that feature off.

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