What I'd do differently next time. - Page 37 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1081 of 1109 Old 04-18-2017, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by erkq View Post
Male voices come through as very soft mumblings but female voices are hardly heard at all.
Could be a market for something like that.
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post #1082 of 1109 Old 04-18-2017, 06:26 AM
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Keep in mind that not all "acoustical engineers" (or any engineer) are the same. His specialty seems to be inside the room itself, which is VERY important, and the Green Glue is a piece towards soundproofing the room itself.

I've built 4 rooms of my own now (plus part of 2 others for friends/family over the years), and have done all sorts of things along the way, but my latest space incorporates Green Glue and there IS a significant improvement over other products or over nothing between the drywall layers. I would never go back to not using it.

Containing lower bass energy is extremely difficult, and adding Green Glue (or using products like Quiet Rock) by themselves, or even with some other isolation technologies isn't going to do it. Think underground bunker. LOL

As for footsteps, that is called flanking sound and is completely different than airborne sound energy. For flanking sounds, you need to isolate the walls/ceiling/floor from the rest of the house or space that you are using. Decoupling is your friend here.

We have our master bedroom directly above the theater and I can watch a movie at my normal volume (not reference as I still want to be able to hear in 10 years) and as long as it isn't a massive explosion fest movie (think Transformers), she can sleep right through it as the only thing that she can hear is the LFE and bass, but it is tamed down significantly.

I went with staggered stud walls and clips/hat channel ceiling for the isolation, added insulation into the cavities (but only one "side" of the wall and didn't "fill" the ceiling as you still want some air in there), put putty around outlets, created backer boxes for lights, did a layer of 5/8" fresh drywall from a drywall company, not box home improvement place, caulked corners, applied green glue before putting on the 2nd layer of 5/8" drywall with a "double load" amount on the ceiling. Added a solid core exterior door with seals as well.

I made a video of it at one point where I was playing a scene from Oblivion at louder than reference levels, and outside the closed door, yes you could still hear the movie, but when I opened the door, holy crap was it loud. I had a huge grin on my face knowing that I have THAT big of a sound proof improvement without going crazy on cost. I have less than $1000 into all of the "extra" stuff for soundproofing, and keeping in mind that almost $300 was just the door, that really isn't that much.

But putting just Green Glue, using just special drywall, using just insulation in the walls, using just some sort of isolation like staggered studs or clips/channel won't do what people want. It really is a combination of all of this stuff that is needed to really be effective.

(Note: In a previous space, I did double drywall all around and insulation in the wall/ceiling and it was terrible. The staggered studs and clips/channel got rid of the flanking sounds, and the Green Glue really did help with the mids and highs.)
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post #1083 of 1109 Old 04-18-2017, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by nickbuol View Post
I have less than $1000 into all of the "extra" stuff for soundproofing, and keeping in mind that almost $300 was just the door, that really isn't that much.
How big is your room? My rough plans show that if I put green glue on all walls and ceiling, and maybe DD+GG between the ceiling joists under the upper level floor, that I would be spending $1-1.5k on GG alone. My room is about 15x27x8

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post #1084 of 1109 Old 04-18-2017, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Gouie View Post
I'm one of the confused ones right there with you. It's just so difficult to measure any benefit because you're not building the room twice, once with and once without.
Well maybe one of these days you can swing by and compare. My build is one layer of 5/8 with clips just on the ceiling. I'm at about the same stage as you in the build

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post #1085 of 1109 Old 04-18-2017, 09:14 AM
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Yes... footsteps are "flanking" sound. And, worse yet, the floor joists in our home run perpendicular to the wall! The worst! But overall it works pretty well.
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post #1086 of 1109 Old 04-18-2017, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Medi0gre View Post
Well maybe one of these days you can swing by and compare. My build is one layer of 5/8 with clips just on the ceiling. I'm at about the same stage as you in the build

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Might have to take you up on that. Of course you're welcome to swing by this way as well.
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post #1087 of 1109 Old 04-19-2017, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Dobbs View Post
How big is your room? My rough plans show that if I put green glue on all walls and ceiling, and maybe DD+GG between the ceiling joists under the upper level floor, that I would be spending $1-1.5k on GG alone. My room is about 15x27x8
Your room is just a little bit bigger than mine. I am at 14x25x8.

You need to find a better source of GG it would seem. Like those large 5 gallon buckets and a speed loader. I would also note that there are different "load levels" of Green Glue. I went with a "single load" on the walls, and a "double load" on the ceiling. Everything was DD+GG plus the insulation and some form of decoupling like the clips/hat channel for the ceiling, and staggered studs for the walls. At first I wasn't going to go clips and hat channel for the ceiling, and just load up layers of DD+GG all over, but decoupling the ceiling was probably more important, especially for flanking sound, that the GG on the ceiling. Not saying NOT to use GG on the ceiling, but just saying that it was more critical to decouple for me.
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post #1088 of 1109 Old 04-19-2017, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickbuol View Post
Your room is just a little bit bigger than mine. I am at 14x25x8.

You need to find a better source of GG it would seem. Like those large 5 gallon buckets and a speed loader. I would also note that there are different "load levels" of Green Glue. I went with a "single load" on the walls, and a "double load" on the ceiling. Everything was DD+GG plus the insulation and some form of decoupling like the clips/hat channel for the ceiling, and staggered studs for the walls. At first I wasn't going to go clips and hat channel for the ceiling, and just load up layers of DD+GG all over, but decoupling the ceiling was probably more important, especially for flanking sound, that the GG on the ceiling. Not saying NOT to use GG on the ceiling, but just saying that it was more critical to decouple for me.
Nick, how many inches does the dual 5/8" on channel reduce the room size in comparison to the single layer of previously existing drywall? Was that 1/2" before? I guess what I'm asking, since I can math out 2 X 5/8", is how much offset does hat channel create? I'm considering doing my room the same way yours has been done and floating the floor. What did you do to treat your flooring?

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post #1089 of 1109 Old 04-19-2017, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by NuDLP View Post
Nick, how many inches does the dual 5/8" on channel reduce the room size in comparison to the single layer of previously existing drywall? Was that 1/2" before? I guess what I'm asking, since I can math out 2 X 5/8", is how much offset does hat channel create? I'm considering doing my room the same way yours has been done and floating the floor. What did you do to treat your flooring?
There is a neat little trick to try to save as much ceiling height as possible. I am attaching a diagram. So instead of losing almost 2.5 - 3 inches just to clips and hat channel, with this method you only lose 1/2" over just putting 2 layers of drywall right on the ceiling joists. That 1/2" loss is well worth the soundproofing benefit to me.

I didn't treat the floor, honestly. This is in my basement and while sound does travel through the concrete, I wasn't going for the "end all, be all" in soundproofing.

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Last edited by nickbuol; 04-19-2017 at 12:11 PM.
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post #1090 of 1109 Old 04-19-2017, 11:57 AM
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Total loss will depend on the clip. I used isomax and lost about 3" with clips, channel, and double drywall. If you are constrained the above approach is a great space saver.
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post #1091 of 1109 Old 04-19-2017, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickbuol View Post
There is a neat little trick to try to save as much ceiling height as possible. I am attaching a diagram. So instead of losing almost 2.5 - 3 inches just to clips and hat channel, with this method you only lose 1/2" over just putting 2 layers of drywall right on the ceiling joists. That 1/2" loss is well worth the soundproofing benefit to me.

I didn't treat the floor, honestly. This is in my basement and while sound does travel through the concrete, I wasn't going for the "end all, be all" in soundproofing.

Genius! I never thought of doing it that way. Could this be done on the walls, as well? Why not brace between studs on the walls and save some space. My main concern is on the width of my room, which is challenging. I have 9ft ceilings and 26 1/2 ft of length to work with but at only 12ft wide the room has some challenges there.

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post #1092 of 1109 Old 04-21-2017, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickbuol View Post
Your room is just a little bit bigger than mine. I am at 14x25x8.

You need to find a better source of GG it would seem. Like those large 5 gallon buckets and a speed loader. I would also note that there are different "load levels" of Green Glue. I went with a "single load" on the walls, and a "double load" on the ceiling. Everything was DD+GG plus the insulation and some form of decoupling like the clips/hat channel for the ceiling, and staggered studs for the walls. At first I wasn't going to go clips and hat channel for the ceiling, and just load up layers of DD+GG all over, but decoupling the ceiling was probably more important, especially for flanking sound, that the GG on the ceiling. Not saying NOT to use GG on the ceiling, but just saying that it was more critical to decouple for me.
I don't understand how you spent so little. What did I do wrong! I have a room that is 24'by11' (I keep using different length numbers because apparently I can't measure). I used Green glue, Clips, Hat channel, caulking, communicating doors, gasket seals for the doors, etc. I have 15 gallons of green glue in my room, with at most 2 gallons left. I went through 15 tubes of acoustic caulk. I forget the total, but well over 100 IB1 clips, 20-30 IB-3 clips, lots of hat channel,etc. The doors are 1.75" 32" wide solid core doors. One is a flush slab and one is a panel type. Both had to be specially ordered because of thickness and dimensions. They were $125 and $150 each prehung. There are numerous other expenses for sound proofing as well. Just the above mentioned was something like $2000. That's still not including the cost of the extra drywall, special HVAC materials, etc. I'd have to go look at my documentation for this, but I want to say that we figured out soundproofing added more than $5000 to the total cost of the theater for all materials and extra labor.
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post #1093 of 1109 Old 04-21-2017, 02:44 PM
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I'm with you. I'd have to go back to the books but man, I'm well beyond that. I'd say $5,000 or $6,500 CDN is about right.
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post #1094 of 1109 Old 04-22-2017, 07:31 AM
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My total cost for double drywall, isolation clips, green glue caulk, insulation, miscellaneous hardware and labor was in the neighborhood of $25,000.


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post #1095 of 1109 Old 04-22-2017, 11:16 AM
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My total cost for double drywall, isolation clips, green glue caulk, insulation, miscellaneous hardware and labor was in the neighborhood of $25,000.


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Is that just materials or materials and labor? How big is your space? That's a lot but if the space was massive enough and you went all out I would believe it. My costs would have doubled or tripled had I gone with soundproof doors, better gaskets, etc.


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post #1096 of 1109 Old 04-25-2017, 10:42 PM
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Add attractive and functional storage furniture. It provides great help in keeping everything in place and the home theater looks amazing too. Don’t forget to add super comfy chairs.

Ashley HomeStore
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post #1097 of 1109 Old 04-28-2017, 10:46 AM
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My total cost for double drywall, isolation clips, green glue caulk, insulation, miscellaneous hardware and labor was in the neighborhood of $25,000.
whoa! The materials you listed should run 4-7K depending on the size of the theater.
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post #1098 of 1109 Old 04-28-2017, 01:02 PM
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What part of the "and labor" are you guys missing?
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post #1099 of 1109 Old 05-01-2017, 11:21 AM
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I'm my own labor. LOL
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post #1100 of 1109 Old 05-01-2017, 04:44 PM
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What part of the "and labor" are you guys missing?

Michael


Yes my main contractor was being paid $30/hr, plus I had young helpers paid $10/hour, and the project took about 10 months, working 2 days a week. I believe that figure also included new hardware (receiver, projector) and ceiling speakers. The labor was the biggest single expense.


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post #1101 of 1109 Old 06-10-2017, 07:29 PM
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Here's one for the things I did right.

Spancreted a 4+ garage and built the theater underneath it. Did wonders for sound proofing


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post #1102 of 1109 Old 06-21-2017, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickbuol View Post
Keep in mind that not all "acoustical engineers" (or any engineer) are the same. His specialty seems to be inside the room itself, which is VERY important, and the Green Glue is a piece towards soundproofing the room itself.

I've built 4 rooms of my own now (plus part of 2 others for friends/family over the years), and have done all sorts of things along the way, but my latest space incorporates Green Glue and there IS a significant improvement over other products or over nothing between the drywall layers. I would never go back to not using it.

Containing lower bass energy is extremely difficult, and adding Green Glue (or using products like Quiet Rock) by themselves, or even with some other isolation technologies isn't going to do it. Think underground bunker. LOL

As for footsteps, that is called flanking sound and is completely different than airborne sound energy. For flanking sounds, you need to isolate the walls/ceiling/floor from the rest of the house or space that you are using. Decoupling is your friend here.

We have our master bedroom directly above the theater and I can watch a movie at my normal volume (not reference as I still want to be able to hear in 10 years) and as long as it isn't a massive explosion fest movie (think Transformers), she can sleep right through it as the only thing that she can hear is the LFE and bass, but it is tamed down significantly.

I went with staggered stud walls and clips/hat channel ceiling for the isolation, added insulation into the cavities (but only one "side" of the wall and didn't "fill" the ceiling as you still want some air in there), put putty around outlets, created backer boxes for lights, did a layer of 5/8" fresh drywall from a drywall company, not box home improvement place, caulked corners, applied green glue before putting on the 2nd layer of 5/8" drywall with a "double load" amount on the ceiling. Added a solid core exterior door with seals as well.

I made a video of it at one point where I was playing a scene from Oblivion at louder than reference levels, and outside the closed door, yes you could still hear the movie, but when I opened the door, holy crap was it loud. I had a huge grin on my face knowing that I have THAT big of a sound proof improvement without going crazy on cost. I have less than $1000 into all of the "extra" stuff for soundproofing, and keeping in mind that almost $300 was just the door, that really isn't that much.

But putting just Green Glue, using just special drywall, using just insulation in the walls, using just some sort of isolation like staggered studs or clips/channel won't do what people want. It really is a combination of all of this stuff that is needed to really be effective.

(Note: In a previous space, I did double drywall all around and insulation in the wall/ceiling and it was terrible. The staggered studs and clips/channel got rid of the flanking sounds, and the Green Glue really did help with the mids and highs.)
Curious as to the difference between fresh drywall and box store drywall.
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post #1103 of 1109 Old 06-21-2017, 11:09 AM
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Curious as to the difference between fresh drywall and box store drywall.
They way that I understand it from the research back when I did my last build, the box store drywall is generally sitting a lot longer at some distributor warehouse, then sent to a big box staging warehouse, then at some point shipped to your local store. This makes the drywall much more brittle.

Fresh drywall usually found at a place that specializes in drywall usually sits in their own storage only and comes direct from the manufacturer, eliminating at least one extra stay in at least one warehouse. This drywall is also treated as "first in, first out" meaning that the drywall never sits very long. Throw in that construction companies crank through this drywall fast, means that it isn't nearly as brittle as the dried out big box stuff.

Now, when the drywall is hung, that isn't a big deal, but the fresh drywall cuts easier and cleaner, doesn't chip chunks when you cut around electrical boxes, etc.

That is only part of the picture. The other part is that the big box stores generally get a lower grade drywall that has a lot more air pockets and bubbles. This makes for an inconsistent wall "structure" as well.

So are these things super important? Not extremely. There are other things in a person's room that will be much more important than this, but when you can get that drywall for less money, delivered right into your house, for less than making several trips to a big box store and hauling it yourself, it is already a no brainer. Throw in that the fresh drywall from the supplier is a better quality and not "old" is just a bonus.

Of course, each drywall supply store will have some sort of minimal amount of drywall that you have to buy in order to get it delivered, and of course the more you buy, the better the price.

I was fishing my basement with over 1500sqft of floor space and a number of rooms, plus did double drywall in the theater room, so I got a really good price, but even at lower quantity, I would have still gotten a better price and free delivery inside my house.
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post #1104 of 1109 Old 06-21-2017, 12:20 PM
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That's some good to know stuff there Nick!
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post #1105 of 1109 Old 07-06-2017, 08:24 AM
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Used Paint instead of a screen for the projector without knowing what gain was..
center speaker was above the screen not below..
back 2 speakers were too far behind couch..
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post #1106 of 1109 Old 07-17-2017, 01:48 AM
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wow, a great thread before upgrading our devices.
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post #1107 of 1109 Old 08-02-2017, 08:01 AM
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I'm the process of designing my first home-theater. I've enlisted the help of a HT contractor for the equipment installation/wiring and CinemaTech for technical drawings of the room. I'm happy with both, but I'm missing the input of an HT designer. Someone who is as passionate about squeezing every bit of performance out of this setup as I am. The dedicated movie room will 28' by 18' and the current design uses 28 speakers+subs. So it's not a small project!

Does anyone have any recommendations where to find someone who is madly passionate about speaker locations and room optimizations in SoCal? Thanks!

Abstract yourself!
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post #1108 of 1109 Old 08-02-2017, 08:30 AM
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We are! Can you post what you have here and you'll get PLENTY of input.
Start a thread.
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post #1109 of 1109 Old 08-02-2017, 08:49 AM
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Beyond the great help here, you can try Nyal Mellor at Acoustic Frontiers -- very passionate and knowledgable guy.

Σ Info: Δ 8.5' viewing distance AT screen fabrics comparison
Σ Builds:
Δ HT 2.0 renovation with acoustic coffered ceiling (in progress, 10% completed)
Δ Variable-aspect screen with motorized masking (on hold, have parts)
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