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post #1 of 171 Old 12-08-2007, 02:14 PM - Thread Starter
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After months of lurking on this forum, I'm ready to start construction of the...






which is going to be constructed along with the rest of the basement:






The inside of the theater will be 20.5' x 15.6' x 8.5', but that doesn't include the bump-out in the back for the projector or the bump-out in the front for the center speaker and subs, which will be behind an acoustically-transparent 2.35:1 screen:






The theater is dimensioned assuming Lazboy Matinee seats and Klipsch THX Ultra2 speakers and I assume I'll get an SMX AT screen - I'll build everything else in the room...

I think I'm ready to pull the permit but, before I do, I was hoping to get a nod from you to go ahead. For the permit, I'll only use the entire basement layout picture above, which doesn't say much about the theater area other than where the walls are...and therein lies my first question - will I have enough sound proofing/isolation?

Specifically, note that the three poles (blue circles) and the concrete walls constrain my space. I'm very willing to let the interior walls be extra thick as it lets me stagger-stud one and double-wall the other, while hiding the PJ and rear speakers inside it. The walls against the concrete will be 2x4 framing with 2 layers of drywall with Green-Glue between. Also, note that the 2' wall near the front-left speaker will have its 2x4 studs laid flat, but it will still be DD+GG.

So, what do you think, do you see any issues with this design?

PS: in case you are wondering, I was down in the basement a few months ago looking things over and trying to come up with a name for the theater when I noticed my cat, who is black, lounging in the middle of the taped-out floor

Thanks,
Morphic


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post #2 of 171 Old 12-08-2007, 04:16 PM
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Looks like a great project, Love the Logo, here are some thoughts

Don't see any planning for an equipment stack? That rear wall?

Your plans for the projector location will restrict you to those projectors with the right throw.

Plan some ventilation for your equipment.

Plan how to isolate/or deaden the HVAC ducts shared with the rest of the house. Plan supplies and returns for the room, maybe put in a zone.


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post #3 of 171 Old 12-08-2007, 05:08 PM
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Looks like a great space. Your plan is probably adequate to pull the permit, but each local can have different requirements. They may want to see the plans for outlets, lights, HVAC and plumbing as well. Give them a call and they will tell you what you need.


The only thing that I wonder off the top of my head is whether or not you will have enough combustible air for the furnace and hot water heater. You may need to connect that space to the finished basement with some vents or a louvered door.

Good luck with the project.

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post #4 of 171 Old 12-08-2007, 07:29 PM - Thread Starter
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This first picture shows where the A/V and Computer racks are located. The A/V rack is where my MythTV Front End and AMPs will be located. The Computer rack is where my MythTV Backend and storage system will be located. I separate them like this because rack-mounted computers are loud

This picture also illustrates how I plan to cool the theater room. I plan for the room to have a dedicated thermostat that controls variable speed exhaust fans to skim the hot air off the ceiling and blow it into the adjacent room. Fresh/cool air will come into the room thru some passive vents sprinkled about the front

Finally, this picture shows how the Mech/Storage room will get vented. My county requires either a louver door or top/bottom vents - I plan to put top/bottom vents as far away from the Computer Rack as possible so as to reduce noice coming into the finished space (see green rectangle bottom-right of picture). I'll add sound treatments to the Mech/Storage room if necessary...





This next picture shows how the I-beams and ducts protrude into the theater space. The one duct that crosses near the screen is servicing upstairs vents and can not be removed. Note: the purple rectangles are suppose to represent vents...





In this last picture, you can see how I cover the I-beams and ducts with soffits (no, they won't be blue ) while leaving room for a raised star-field





I understand that the putting the PJ in the back like that restricts my selection some, but the "Find Projectors" feature on Projector Central indicates that some real winners can do it (like the Sony VPL-VW60)


I appreciate the feedback so far, but can anyone help answer my original question regarding if the wall-plan is sufficient to sound proof/isolate the room?

Thanks,
Morphic


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post #5 of 171 Old 12-08-2007, 07:32 PM
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Double doors will be tough(er) to soundproof.

Further, most theater have the entry in the side/rear if possible - don't really want the door in the sight line.

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post #6 of 171 Old 12-09-2007, 05:27 AM
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Explain the HVAC a little more. Are you going to place vents on the system that feeds the upstairs or is this a separate unit? Since sound isolation seems to be a concern, if these vents will be on the same plenums that feed the upstairs, you will likely run into some isolation issues.

With regards to your isolation questions, it is important to treat all walls/ceiling as if the baby's room is right next door. In other words treat the walls against the foundation in a similar way that you treat the interior walls. If not, sound will flank your isolation techniques. The analogy tossed around here is that of an aquarium. All walls need to be able to hold water (sound) in. It seems you are planning to do the interior walls the right way (staggered stud, DD, green glue), but don't forget about those other walls also.

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post #7 of 171 Old 12-10-2007, 05:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbbarron View Post

Double doors will be tough(er) to soundproof.

Isn't there anything that can be done? I was thinking about getting the kind you see at theaters sometimes that are finished will padded-leather - they feel so heavy and snug that I thought they would do a good job blocking sound. What do others on the list do with their double doors?

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Originally Posted by dbbarron View Post

Further, most theater have the entry in the side/rear if possible - don't really want the door in the sight line.

Why is this? Is it merely a preference to eliminate a distraction? - or maybe because door look ugly or asymmetric in the room? - or is their an acoustical issue at hand?

I generally like entrances to be visible because otherwise I feel like someone is sneaking up on me. Also, my wife likes the idea of being able to poke her head in and say something to me and/or the kids. Besides, if the door were in the rear, it would take longer to get into the theater from the stairs and it would be somewhat a hassle to first step up to the second-row riser and then down to the first-row seats, where I prefer sitting...

I guess I have to trade-off the reasons for putting the door in the rear with my reasons for wanting it up front...

Thanks,
Morphic


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post #8 of 171 Old 12-10-2007, 07:22 AM
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The door placement is simply a personal preference. The only other concern with a door at the front is it may land at a first reflection point for one of your front speakers. Thus, the door itself would need an acoustical treatment. If you are using a padded door like you described above, that would probably work fine.

Gonzo


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post #9 of 171 Old 12-10-2007, 07:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbgonzomd View Post

Explain the HVAC a little more. Are you going to place vents on the system that feeds the upstairs or is this a separate unit? Since sound isolation seems to be a concern, if these vents will be on the same plenums that feed the upstairs, you will likely run into some isolation issues.

The picture shows the *existing* HVAC system which is for both the main-floor and the basement - there is a separate unit in the attic for the second floor... Only a little part of the existing system intersects the theater space and it will not have any vents facing the theater - its *only* for services the upstairs floor. The dedicated ventilation system that I will put into the room will be the only vents in the room.

What do I need to do to sound-proof the vents in the room? - my guess is that I need to use some special ducts and also to be sure that there is a 180 degree bend some where in the line. Also, I assume I need to make sure the vents don't rattle. Does this sound about right? Where do people get sound-proofing ducts from?

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Originally Posted by mbgonzomd View Post

With regards to your isolation questions, it is important to treat all walls/ceiling as if the baby's room is right next door. In other words treat the walls against the foundation in a similar way that you treat the interior walls. If not, sound will flank your isolation techniques. The analogy tossed around here is that of an aquarium. All walls need to be able to hold water (sound) in. It seems you are planning to do the interior walls the right way (staggered stud, DD, green glue), but don't forget about those other walls also.

I like your aquarium analogy. And thanks for confirming that the interior walls are OK? Regarding the walls against the concrete, I'm hoping that that I can get away just DD+GG on a regular framing with 2x4. I feel like I can't spare even an inch to make the right-wall staggered as 1) it moves the room's center closer to that pole in the back where I plan to hide the PJ and 2) the space is already pretty tight with the four chairs and two stairs.

Regarding the ceiling, I'm more than happy to do whatever it takes. I'm not sure exactly what that is though... What aspects of it do I need to be considering now? I was planning on framing the soffit around the star field using 2x4s and then use DD+GG to seal on the entire ceiling and then to float the panels for the star-field under it.

I guess the question is - how bad having just DD+GG on standard 2x4 framing for two concrete-walls and the ceiling going to be? Is having stagger-studs on *just* the two interior wall a wasted effort given the other walls wouldn't be? That is, is it that every wall is only as good as the weakest link? - or does every little effort help?

Thanks,
Morphic


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post #10 of 171 Old 12-10-2007, 08:03 AM
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I feel that your design will be fine with the standard wall facing the concrete walls. Make sure that you at least leave an inch or two space between the concrete wall and the stud, and of course insulate well.


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post #11 of 171 Old 12-13-2007, 07:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by king_arthur View Post

I feel that your design will be fine with the standard wall facing the concrete walls. Make sure that you at least leave an inch or two space between the concrete wall and the stud, and of course insulate well.

Will do - and thanks for the confirmation!

But now you make me question my plan for the ceiling and also, in part, how the walls are suppose to attach to it... My current plan is for the theater's ceiling to be directly attached to the house with DD+GG, but must the theater's inside walls and ceilings be completely decoupled from the house? How do people do that? - do they build ceiling trusses that span the inside walls?

Thanks again!
Morphic


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post #12 of 171 Old 12-13-2007, 07:40 AM
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Thick solid doors are great for sound deadening, here is one of mine


However the problem with double doors is sealing them completely. Even with a single door in addition to the density of the door itself you need to completely seal/weatherstrip the door, a double door that meets in the center has poor sealing at best.
I also agree that having the door at the front is a generally bad idea on several fronts and best changed if at all possible, if not, well we all have to make compromises somewhere.

As for the isolation question think isolation clips as part of your solution.

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post #13 of 171 Old 12-14-2007, 06:39 AM
 
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Morph, I have heard nothing but good things about the Klipsch THX Ultra2 set up. Have you heard them yet? Do you have them already? Cant wait to hear your review. and see more pics!
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post #14 of 171 Old 12-14-2007, 06:48 AM
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Overall looks good. I'd be concerned about a screen quite that big in that room for the way you have the speakers laid out (very close to the side walls). Guess I'm also confused as to why you're doing an AT screen and then not putting the L and R speakers behind the screen? Moving the screen forward a bit would allow that easily.

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post #15 of 171 Old 05-13-2009, 06:12 AM - Thread Starter
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I can't believe that I let this project sit for so long! - we'll, I made some progress such as framing for the whole basement and plumbing for the wet bar...

Right now I'm stuck on how to cool the theater room. My plan, as described originally, has been to use inline fans (Panasonic's Whisperline) with some flexmaster acoustical duct and linear slat vents and a dedicated thermostat to circulate the theater's air with the rest of the basement - as the air in the rest of the basement would always be cooler than in the theater when it's in use. The idea is to skim hot air from the theater's ceiling and return cool air from the basement's floor...

I recently learned that a nearby HVAC company did just this last year and so had them come out to give me a quote. Not only did the guy say that he has never seen this done (in 25 years of being in the business), but he also said that he didn't think it would only work until the rest of the basement warmed up too much, which is assumed would be long before a 2-hour movie completed. He also said that it wouldn't do anything for moisture.

Personally, I think he was just trying to push a dedicated heat-pump/air-coil system (he mentioned manufacturers LG and Daiken) for $6000. I have a hard time believing that the rest of the basement (~800 sq ft) would "fill up" - especially given that there is no door blocking the air from going upstairs to the main floor.

What do you think, is this guy full of it? - I thought I read about this being done on this forum, but I can't find the link now (I only see people doing this for AV racks) - has this been done for a whole theater before?

Thanks,
Morphic


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post #16 of 171 Old 05-13-2009, 06:26 AM
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Is the rest of the basement air conditioned, or is it getting cool air from upstairs?
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post #17 of 171 Old 05-13-2009, 06:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whumpf View Post

Is the rest of the basement air conditioned, or is it getting cool air from upstairs?

The rest of the basement is air conditioned, along with the main floor of the house. The thermostat is located on the main floor, so the basement is always noticeably cooler than it, both in the summer and winter...

Thanks
Morphic


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post #18 of 171 Old 05-13-2009, 06:56 AM
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Although there are probably all kinds of reasons why it won't work, if the HT area of the basement is cool now, I think your plan could work. Your main heat producers, besides people, are not in the room. I have a similar situation, so I will be watching this thread to see.
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post #19 of 171 Old 05-13-2009, 07:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whumpf View Post

Although there are probably all kinds of reasons why it won't work, if the HT area of the basement is cool now, I think your plan could work. Your main heat producers, besides people, are not in the room. I have a similar situation, so I will be watching this thread to see.

Well, actually, the PJ is in the room too, but you are correct that everything else (AMP, UPS, DVD player, etc.) is outside the room


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post #20 of 171 Old 05-13-2009, 07:41 AM
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I think what you're describing is the dead vent?

http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/.../the_dead_vent

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post #21 of 171 Old 05-13-2009, 08:30 AM
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Exactly 17 months between posts? I would bet a man named Logan would like to have a word with you. What do you have to show for all this time? A lot of pictures I would hope!

That is the thing I have noticed about this forum. You get a lot of feedback when you post pictures to go with your questions. I would say the best current example of this would be shawnwalters. Check out his thread. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1103417

It seems popular on this forum to use a mini-split to heat/cool a dedicated theater. I would assume it's because of the lack of ductwork in the space. I think queendvd2 uses that method. Take a look at her thread. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=995072

Did you decouple the framed walls in front of the foundation walls? Are you going to decouple the ceiling and the other walls? What about bpape's question on the screen?

The "plans" look great! Let's see those pictures!
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post #22 of 171 Old 05-14-2009, 06:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSpoon View Post

I think what you're describing is the dead vent?

http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/.../the_dead_vent


Yes! - this article definitely confirms that it's OK (codes permitting) to simply exchange air with the rest of the basement - excellent!

BTW, the article shows a top-view of the supply/return vents being in adjacent corners of the room - as it turns out, this is the easiest thing for me to do, but I was originally thinking about having the supply on the opposite side of the theater so as to cause the air to flow across everything - would that be overkill?

Also, is the vertical placement of the supply/return critical? Certainly I want the return to be near the ceiling, to skim the hot air off of it, but what about the supply? - can it be near the ceiling or does it have to be near the floor?

Thanks!


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post #23 of 171 Old 05-14-2009, 06:47 AM
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I would think (no actual HVAC experience here) that it wouldn't matter if they were both at the ceiling as the supply would be adding the cooler (heavier) air into the room it would still be pushing the hotter (lighter) air to the top where the return would pull it out. So as long as they are not right next to each other I would think it'd be fine.

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post #24 of 171 Old 05-14-2009, 07:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesfan View Post

Exactly 17 months between posts? I would bet a man named Logan would like to have a word with you. What do you have to show for all this time? A lot of pictures I would hope!

Logan will have to get in line - my wife is kicking my ass right now


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It seems popular on this forum to use a mini-split to heat/cool a dedicated theater.

Ah, this is exactly what the HVAC contractor quoted me $6000 for - to install the LG system Queen has - seems excessive, I just sent Queen a PM to see how much he paid...

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Did you decouple the framed walls in front of the foundation walls? Are you going to decouple the ceiling and the other walls? What about bpape's question on the screen?

The framed walls and foundation walls do not touch and, for the other two walls, I have double-walls spaced about 1/2 inch from each other. Regarding the ceiling, it uses different joists than the floor above and I plan to have sound-isolation clips - is that what you meant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesfan View Post

The "plans" look great! Let's see those pictures!

Coming up!


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post #25 of 171 Old 05-14-2009, 08:09 AM - Thread Starter
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post #26 of 171 Old 05-14-2009, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bpape View Post

Overall looks good. I'd be concerned about a screen quite that big in that room for the way you have the speakers laid out (very close to the side walls). Guess I'm also confused as to why you're doing an AT screen and then not putting the L and R speakers behind the screen? Moving the screen forward a bit would allow that easily.

As far as screen size goes - it's comparable to what we had and enjoyed previously but, as the screen will go up last, there will be an opportunity to trim it down if needed

Regarding why I'm not planning to put the side speakers behind the screen - this is because I think the speakers need to be spread apart as much as possible so as to maximize the sound field. Which means that, if I want them behind the AT screen, I'd have to move the screen ~14" closer to the viewers, which would become uncomfortably close for the first-row. Do you think it's OK?

Maybe a different question could be why use an AT screen at all? - true, I could put the center speaker above or below a non-AT screen. Could the subs still be behind the screen?

Thanks,
Morphic


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post #27 of 171 Old 05-14-2009, 09:10 AM
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Ah, this is exactly what the HVAC contractor quoted me $6000 for - to install the LG system Queen has - seems excessive, I just sent Queen a PM to see how much he paid...

Considering you can get a mini-split system for less than $2,000 I would say that's a pretty hefty installation fee. I had one installed about 7 years ago and the whole job, unit and installation was less than $2,000.
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post #28 of 171 Old 05-14-2009, 09:18 AM
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Morphic, THIS thread might give you an idea as to what others are paying?
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post #29 of 171 Old 05-14-2009, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Morph1c View Post

Ah, this is exactly what the HVAC contractor quoted me $6000 for - to install the LG system Queen has - seems excessive, I just sent Queen a PM to see how much he paid...

Seven months ago here in Charlotte I had a new dedicated 2-ton heat pump-based system installed for my basement, all the duct work, two controls, and I had them re-work all the existing duct work for the main floor of the house to get it out of the way. Total cost was about $7,400 (I might be off a small amount).

So I would say $6,000 is far too much for a mini-split.


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post #30 of 171 Old 05-14-2009, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morph1c View Post

Ah, this is exactly what the HVAC contractor quoted me $6000 for

Seems excessive to me too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morph1c View Post

I just sent Queen a PM to see how much he paid...

You better change that to she before she sees it!



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The framed walls and foundation walls do not touch and, for the other two walls, I have double-walls spaced about 1/2 inch from each other. Regarding the ceiling, it uses different joists than the floor above and I plan to have sound-isolation clips - is that what you meant?

OK, I am certainly not an expert by any stretch. I just posed the question to get you and hopefully others with the knowledge thinking and talking because it seems like sound isolation is a priority to you. So, hopefully others will chime in here. That link that TheSpoon gave you a few posts back to The Sound Proofing Company has tons of useful info.

I could be wrong but... I thought that if you have joists for your ceiling that aren't touching the floor joists above that you don't need the clips. If the new floor joists rest only on the framed walls and they don't touch anything either you have a "room inside a room". If some of the walls do touch other framing I believe you would need to use some of the RSIC-DC04 clips to decouple them.



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Coming up!

Good man. It is looking great!
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